With actual intent factored in, I can put it like this: Most random encounters: attack you by total accident; some don't even wanna be there. Royal Guards + Canine Unit: want to kill you, but only as ordered by Undyne. Papyrus: absolutely doesn't kill. Mettaton: was designed with human murder in mind, and even past those tendencies, i think he mostly believes successfully grabbing your SOUL would even further boost his popularity. Sans: Only trying to kill you in Geno out of obligation (last monster left before Asgore) and to attempt to piss you off/bore you enough to make you quit. Toriel: most likely doesn't want to kill you, as shown by the alternate pattern when you're low on health, but has to prove you're not ready for what she believes the rest of the Underground is like. Asgore: never wanted to kill humans in the first place, but had to keep to the promise he made to his people out of grief and anger. Doesn't want to kill you, but has to for his people. Undyne: Wants to kill you, in all 3 route types. Flowey: Wants to kill you. Wants to kill EVERYONE. Chara: a bit of a tricky case here; they pressed Asriel to fight back against the people of their village, and has been explicitly described as hating humanity, but whether that all maintained for the Chara we see in Geno or if they're simply misguided by our actions is never explained. Given how quickly they were okay with joining monsterkind when adopted, I personally believe they would never agree to our slaughter of monsters if they were alive. They DO press us to play another route if we repeat Genocide, too, so I don't believe they're even intentionally evil. Jerry: jerry.

I feel like the people that genuinely think this forget how like Multiple undertale monsters know that you can reset. The game knows you can reset, and the fact that you aren't just a 5 year old. And that the game literally tells you "Stop acting like it's self defense you literally feel no pain and can't die you are literally the god of this world. You hold a bigger responsibility to be the better person"

The monsters are attacking cause of asgore so yeah

This is why Woshua is the best monster.

It's really crazy how the entire fandom just waves away all the character's hypocrisy cuz of one single insignificant line of dialogue in some book in some useless room early in the game.

Even if they are unaware, killing them would still be self defence. Also SURELY most of them are smart enough to know that what they are doing is injuring you.

I know this is satire, but: The game never tries to tell you the monsters are harmless or don't want you ded. But it does fall on you as the immortal time manipulator to find a peaceful way out. Like, if you're immortal, dying shouldn't really be an issue.

Reading that one dialogue made me almost regret doing pacifist. It was like when someone says something so inconceivably stupid you instinctively clench your fist like you're ACTUALLY gonna hit them, but won't

The funny part is most mosnters(excluding bosses and a few like the mercenaries in the core) are implied to nto know what a human looks like and are interacting with you like they would a normal monster without an itnent to kill. They just accidentally kill you, so this would justify frisk killing without time powers but not without.

They always came at him in a public situation and made him defend his own life, even if he wasn't happy with the devastation. Also, humanity first; xenos never.

Papyrus didn’t do anything wrong he just puts you in YOUR PRISON BOX

Flowey, you kill because he's bored and sadistic. Neutral run players are killing in self-defence. We are not the same! ... Sure, most of the monsters have sympithetic motives, and while taking the high ground may be heroic, but it is by no means morally mandated, when they are atempting to kill you.

1:49 Who tf is that

Funny thing is, monsters that don't want to kill you using magic actually CHOOSE to hurt you. Monsters can just use green magic to heal you, meaning they're not trying to "express themselves in a friendly matter", they actually just want to fucking kill you

As I grew up and took a step back I realized how weird it is that the game acts like you’re the guy for defending yourself and guilts. Like some I get but others they had it coming Also heard someone once say that the game “hates players that kill monsters” and I always thought that was stupid

Me explaining why UTY genocide (or neutral, at least) should be canonised:

This is completely unrelated to the conversation but do you ever think about how a human in the underground is like if a cryptid was randomly walking through a neighborhood for humans?

lol

From the very beginning of the game, Toriel says that monsters living in the underground will attack humans, either out of fight-or-flight or loyalty to the King’s decree of every human that falls down must die. Attempting to murder someone and expressing themselves are not mutually exclusive behaviors, similar to someone using high-level kung fu to beat the crap out of someone. For a normal human child in an environment where everyone wants to kill them, self defense is not only justified, it’s downright expected. However, Frisk is not a normal human child. They happen to have an otherworldly cosmic power that allows them to escape death entirely and alter the outcome of any situation they find themselves in. Saying that Frisk has an obligation to preserve themselves above all else is a farcical statement due to the fact that they cannot possibly die for good, and their unlimited agency over life and death in the underground should come with the burden of unlimited responsibility. To be blunt, the issue is not fighting to survive, it’s fighting to do the right thing. Sure, they could kill a monster on accident and from an outsider perspective it could seem justified, but every monster they killed is a monster that they have the power to save and chose not to. “I understand self-defense. You were thrown into those situations against your will… …but if you have some kind of *special power*… isn’t it your responsibility to do the right thing?” - Sans, Neutral Route (after killing Papyrus)

Apparently, “battles”/“encounters” are just how monsters greet each other.

The argument of “you attacked first, so you’re wrong.” Is literally the dumbest thing ever. Idk about you, but if someone walked up to me with a weapon with the intent to hurt me and I got first move, I’m attacking before I can get harmed. I’d like to see you wait to get hit first, have fun being in pain while trying to fight back, or bleeding out on the floor! “They surrendered after you beat them up.” Wish I can say the same for myself, they seem willing to annihilate me instantly with no hesitation. And no, some random 10 year old shouldn’t be responsible for taking beatings just to spare monsters, or fixing a bunch of personal issues some of them have, and especially freeing them all BECAUSE of the sole reason of having the power to restart and refuse death. I can imagine dying still hurts, and is scarring for a child, guilt tripping a literal 10 year (looking at you mainly, Sans) because they didn’t use their power the way YOU wanted them to is not your place to judge. I wouldn’t blame Frisk for wanting to kill monsters even more after dying. If Frisk kept doing genocide on purpose over and over, THEN you’d have a point. I don’t see anyone trashing this hard on Asriel/Flowey for this, considering he had this power once too, yet never used it to amount to anything.

Then how come only monsters are using their magic to "express themselves" with the human and nor any other monster

Expressing there selves with bullets ✨magic bullets✨

This is THE Frisk voice

This was my issue with undertale, you are the bad guy when you kill the monsters when they try to murder you so they can steal your soul.

Frisk: “ok then I’m gonna express myself by killing them”

No one can convince me that Shyren has any kind of murderous intent, lol.

This is trying to justify the neutral and genocide route. I do not approve. While the monsters DID try to kill you, they need you, one single little human’s, soul, and they can be free for the agony they’ve been inflicted upon by humans for hundreds of years.

i don't think the point of undertale was ever that "killing isn't justified", but moreso "violence isn't always the answer." pacifist to me has always been a story about rising above conflict and looking on both sides of the situation. killing monsters is 100% justified on your end, they're attacking you and self-defense is something that is perfectly rational. but considering what they've been through and what they're trying to accomplish killing you is also 100% justified on THEIR end. so until someone rises above this and works out a solution that helps everyone, the war between humans and monsters is going to be a continuous cycle of bloodshed with no good ending in sight. a justified action =/= best course of action also i think a lot of people are forgetting something about the monsters - when they were sealed underground they didn't immediately go into "human killing" mode, they tried to live in peace. asriel's death was the straw that broke the camel's back - that's when asgore decided that they need to take back what they lost. there's some friendly monsters, as in NPCs as well that are only there to have a chat with or sell things. gerson, sans, burgerpants, the temmies... it's just this. if the monsters win? well humanity is basically doomed. got a neutral ending? monsters are doomed to more lifetimes of suffering. pacifist ending? both sides finally make peace and live in harmony on the surface - and that's the kind of ending to strive for.

It’s frisks responsibility not to kill, having the power of immortality.

Idk why people are treating frisk like your average frail kid. The guy had so much determination they gained the ability to reset. I mean c'mon the guy had enough determination to potentially kill all monsters or spare them I also think Frisk is more powerful than Undyne, since we were able to beat her in the pacifist run This guys willpower can be compared with spiderman or batman bro

THANK YOU

Nah, Undertale's core meaning has a SERIOUS problem. I can't do anything else but agree.

Is that fresc Undrtayl on thumbnail?

Please do a skit with Frisk and Chara

to be fair its not their fault the only way they can leave false imprisonment is by killing you. its either you or them , neither persons fault. until you start actively searching for them to kill them and also kill random innocent monters just because they where in the wrong place at the wrong time but suuuuuuuure obivously we are justified for it because some of them fight us. even tho they might not even know they are hurting you and not realising it ,even if you can just say "whoa man chill" and stop the problem or misunderstanding in 15 seconds. even if we ignore the last part you can still just talk to them for 15 seconds and make them realise their mistake , this is assuming you dont just run away (easiest and best way to stop the conflict) or not encounter them and not go out of your way to kill innocent and avoidable ones. there are definitely cases where its just a me or you encounter where you dont or might not realise you have a choice , you might be scared (talked from the prespective of someone lost in an unfamiliar place) but acting like you cant just run away from 90% of these or just tell them to stop is just trying to justify murder , this is once again assuming you dont go out of your way to murder them (also yea you dont get a pass for murder if you commit murder in a situation where you can just talk for 15 seconds and end the problem)

Screw it, I’ll join the flame war. If someone’s method of expressing themselves causes you physical harm, you have no obligation to be friendly to them. Literally every monster in undertale, sans (ha) Papyrus will kill you if you’re not careful. Ergo, killing in self defense, regardless of the intentions of your attacker, is justified. And don’t give me that “you’re basically immortal so it’s okay” schtick. One, neither the player or Frisk know that initially. Two, the monsters don’t know that. Three, even if you do know you can’t really die, dying is still very painful and can be very traumatic, especially for a child. So even if you’re “immortal,” you have no obligation to go through dying over and over again on the off chance you can save someone else, especially if they’re actively hurting you and causing you to die. TL:DR: You have no obligation to help someone who is hurting you, intentionally or not.

Frisk a literal child getting stabbed/burned/shot defends themselves The game: Time to go to the BAD PERSON CORNER

honestly undertale does a horrible job making you feel bad for anyone you kill outside of the genocide route

i love the idea that flowey agrees with frisk on some level about the whole "their magic is actively dangerous to be around unless they go through the effort to make it harmless" but is willing to gaslight them into thinking they're in the wrong so that he can ultimately become asriel

make more

I was so expecting this to be a solid argument that none of the monsters are actually doing anything harmful to us, & just emphasizing the idea that the player is just being an a-hole if they choose to kill but this is just as good

Napstablook literally shows us gray-colored magic that can make stuff without hurting anyone, INCLUDING monsters. They are not fucking immune to magic attacks.

I used to believe monsters in Undertale were hypocritical in attacking the human, but now I see the matter through the context of racial division and a people forced to such extremes because of their oppressors. If your people were trapped and the only KNOWN way to set them free was to kill 7 of the opposition, you’d be a fool to let 7 live for the price of 100s continuously suffering. It’s like the Batman not killing the Joker thing, in the specific sense that not killing is the worst option. While Undertale does encourage sparing and pacifism, it’s not blind to the fact these things get messy sometimes. Perhaps monsters shouldn’t be so eager to kill a human they don’t know, but similarly perhaps a descendent of the humans should be the one to show kindness first, righting a wrong in a way.

I love this

Ok guys I want to hear you thoughts on this ➖do you think dusttale is justified➖

Thats what ticked me off the most... I never understood why Monster need an "ability" to express themselves via dangerous attacks and shit, instead of simply talking in the beginning. They only do the talking when the battle is going for long or when you do genocide, which is stupid tbf

1:03 why is no one talking about the straight up homestuck sprite here bro

Lol, it's like in Touhou but actually deadly

Papyrus is only exception(and thoes with dump attacks), if we don't look at the fact that he still beats Frisk almost to death before putting into his prison.