True. There are several ways to tie this. We find that it is easiest for folks to get the desired size loop and tail length this way. But you're right, it's the same result if you tie the knot with all three strands!
Pre-built compact haulers like the jag, aztek, etc. are great for some applications and can be 'piggybacked' on to the operational rope really quickly. There are also lots of situations (i.e. a haul of a rescue-size load up a long cliff/slope) where being able to haul on the operational rope itself allows for more operational area, fewer resets, and more efficient use of personnel.
Remote Rescue Training (at the University of Utah) will be offering two Cliff Rescue for Ski Patrol courses in early 2023. Visit CliffRescueForSkiPatrol.com for details.
Good stuff. A prusik to from your ventral attachment point, on the safety tail would be a good addition. You wouldn't have to tie the butterfly and could capture your progress the whole way.
Hi Kara. Our standard lengths for team prusiks are roughly: 415cm, 330cm, and 160cm for the 3 pieces. If cutting and tying for a specific user, the 'traditional' Purcell prusik lengths are: a 'long' adjustable loop that reaches from the ground to one hand-width above belt line. A 'short' adjustable loop that measures from the ground to inseam. And a fixed length loop that measures from bridge of nose to navel. There's some good info here: www.animatedknots.com/purcell-prusik-loop-knot
can two alpine butterfly knots connected to the litter with carabiners and figure 8s on the long tails achieve the same goal or is this the preferred setup?
Two alpine butterflies can achieve a very similar goal if the two knots are interlocking each other. If they don't interlock, then you have mostly the same functionality, but lose one small spot of redundancy.
@@RemoteRescueTraining If both loops are connected with a carabiner, what is the redundancy that is being lost? Is the thought that if the carabiner breaks, the 2 ropes aren't connected?
Jonathan, this fits the definition of a compound system, which is: one simple MA system working on another simple MA system. A complex system is anything that doesn't fit into the definition of simple or compound MA.
At one hour and fifteen minutes into the video, you have rappelled into a ravine in a manner that allows you to retrieve your rope from the bottom of the cliff. I assume you'd be leaving that anchor loop and carabiner behind. My thought at this point in the video was about you getting back up that steep hillside after you'd removed your rope from the anchor. You did not show a way to pull your rope back through that anchor so you could rope your way back up the hill if you needed to. A 200 ft. section of paracord weighs only about a pound, and with it you could have made a 100 ft. loop attached to your anchor carabiner to the bottom of the cliff, and when it was time to go back up the hill you could use that loop to pull your rope back through your anchor carabiner.
I like your webbing bridle. I do the same for an improvised or backup bridle when the primary isn't available. I'm not a big fan of tri-links however. At the collection point I either use a rigging plate, or I tie a small loop with both ropes at the same time using a dble longtail bowline (or a dble butterfly or dble inline fig 8, although I always catch a bunch of crap when i mention these because it's not how everybody else does it) and connect the bridle legs and other stuff into that loop.
We generally reserve this bridle for situations where we know the litter will be in the horizontal orientation for an entire operation, most importantly for the edge transition. That edge transition can be fairly tricky and physical, and keeping the bridle as short and compact as possible makes it easier on the edge team and attendant. The tri-link is the most compact method we've found for connecting the bridle.
It seems like a lot of remote rescue instruction focuses on stuff like this instead of cams and blocks, why is that? Are they preferred or just neglected because its such common knowledge?
Natural anchors are generally simpler and easier to make with adequate strength for the forces anticipated in rescue systems. Trad climbing gear can and does get used for rescue anchors on occasion. Doing so is generally considered a more advanced skill.
I do not know why I am so fascinated with ropes and pulleys, but it seems to be a bit of an obsession lately. My initial desire was to be able to haul a deer or elk out of the mountains, but that evolved into the desire to learn much more. Before long I was learning about rope rigging and building highlines for vertical rescue or recovery. One thing leads to another! I am an older guy and will probably never need to be involved in a rescue of any kind, but it is so cool to have that understanding. As to ropes and pulleys, I can set up with my own gear now anything from a 1:1 ratio to a 225:1 ratio, and have most of what is necessary to build a serious highline rig, so bringing my animals back to the truck will never be a problem again This may be one of the coolest things I have ever studied!
@@TheWolfdaw I agree. Eventually, friction will make all that extra useless. If you add enough pulleys, the pull required increases because of all the extra friction and weight of the rope.
The wrap 2, pull 1 anchor has been shown to have the same breaking strength regardless of the placement of the overhand bend: roughly 25kN for 1" tubular webbing.
@@RemoteRescueTraining if a single loop is 4832lbs and a wrap2 pull 1 is 5510lbs, what makes you think the knot placement doesn't matter? If it didn't matter then there would be no need for the second wrap. www.cmcpro.com/one-inch-webbing-anchors-minimum-breaking-strength/
@@twathammerracing Often we don't need any more strength than a single loop, which is likely stronger than knotted 11mm rope. I might put in a second wrap to help hold it in place- to avoid slippage up or down. Of course sometimes we do need more strength and then we'd usually opt for a configuration where I clip more than one strand, and the location of the knot definitely doesn't matter. Unfortunately what we often see is a misunderstanding or mis-prioritization of the location of the knot leading to slower rigging and unfounded dogma. We prefer to think of a single stranded loop as at least as strong as the rope; use a wrap to keep it in place if you like. Use a double stranded loop configuration to avoid creating a weak link in the system if using fatter ropes or at a force multiplication point such as a narrow-angled change of direction.
@@RemoteRescueTraining There is no reason to do a wrap2 if the knot is in the wrong place. A single loop is almost as strong as an average 11mm rope with a knot but if you are doing any kind of system it should be able to raise and lower. If you are raising with pulleys you are most likely force multiplying making your anchor the week spot for no reason other than laziness. Look, your knot was in the wrong spot. I hope no one sees your video and thinks that "the knot placement doesn't matter ". How can you call this "training".
The overhand here isn't in a traditional bend configuration, it doesn't join two ends of rope. Instead in the Purcell, there are two opposing but overlapping bights that need to be joined. An overhand works best for us there. Some people tie a figure 8 in that spot.
This is a very good instructional video. No doubt. But it would be better if you make a video with the hitch in action. And when I say action I mean you hanging, maybe with a stretcher or a fake victim. Simulate it so everybody sees in action the usage
Thanks for your feedback! This particular series of videos is meant to be strictly instructional to provide students a place to study before coming to courses with us. We'll be adding to our channel with many more videos that will have better coverage of our systems in use.
Full Report: On September 26, 2010 University of Utah, Remote Rescue Training’s High-Angle Rescue Technician class was practicing rope rescue systems at the Dogwood crag in Big Cottonwood Canyon when a nearby climber, not associated with the class, fell approximately 80 feet to the ground. The class immediately stopped the scenario and switched in to “real” rescue mode. The lead instructor delegated 2 students to stay at the top of the cliff where cell phone coverage is more reliable and call 911 to initiate the Emergency Medical System. A hasty team with 2 instructors (both EMT’s) and 2 students (also both EMT’s) were immediately dispatched to the base of the cliff where the fallen climber landed. Two students went to the road to help efficiently direct EMS personnel to the patient. The remaining students and instructor packed up all equipment that seemed likely to be helpful, including medical equipment and the stokes litter and went down to the base of the cliff, on standby to assist as needed. The hasty team arrived at the patient approximately 3 minutes after the fall. The patient, Jeremy, a 22-year old male, was found sitting up with his hands clenched to his chest. A full patient assessment was completed by the hasty team leader and Remote Rescue Training instructor, Nate Ostis. Due to the mechanism of injury, spinal precautions were maintained. As information about the patient came to light it was relayed via radio to the top of the cliff and then on to EMS dispatch. EMS arrived on scene, approximately 10 minutes after the fall, Unified Fire (the first EMS medical personnel on scene) packaged the patient on a backboard and used the Remote Rescue Training stokes litter and people power to help move the patient across the creek to the ambulance. The litter evacuation was non-technical and took approximately 2 minutes. The rescue was initiated by University of Utah, Remote Rescue Training staff when they noticed a rope, which was fed through anchor chains on a nearby ledge, moving unusually quickly. When a knot at the end of the rope (not tied into anything) wedged up against the anchors with more force than one would expect in a normal climbing situation, lead instructor Andy Rich looked over the edge to see if the party below was okay. Initial verbal contact with the party below, made it clear that there had been an accident. We know a few facts about how the fall occurred, gathered from our observations and interviews. Jeremy was top roping with his rope fed directly through the anchor chains. Rather than tying into the end of the rope with a figure 8 follow through, he had tied a figure 8 on a bight and clipped the bight into his harness with a locking carabiner. When he neared the top of the climb (approximately 80’ from the ground) he leaned back expecting to be lowered by his belayer to the ground. At that moment his attachment to the knot failed (for some reason the carabiner gate “hyper-extended” and the bight of the knot came free from the carabiner) and he began to free-fall. Realizing the dire situation he was in, Jeremy reached out and grabbed the only thing he could- the strand of rope between the belayer and the anchor. Initially there was no counter balance on the rope and Jeremy continued to free fall, but after a few feet the knot at the end of the rope wedged up against the chains essentially fixing the single strand of rope so that he was able to slow his descent and keep himself upright by gripping the rope. Approximately 15 feet from the ground, he hit and broke through a tree, which further slowed his descent- and may have caused some minor injuries in the process. It is difficult to extrapolate exactly why the locking carabiner that Jeremy was clipped into failed to maintain his connection to the rope. The carabiner was found at the base with the gate “hyper-extended”- opened outward beyond the normal range of motion of a carabiner gate. There was no evidence of failure of the locking mechanism, although it seemed that the screw gate locking mechanism was in the unlocked position when it was found at the base. It is unclear how the carabiner was attached to the harness- into the single point of the belay loop or to the strongpoint(s) of the waist loop and/or leg loops. For the students in the High-Angle Rescue Technician class, being on scene to assist in the response to this accident underscored the relevance and importance of proper training. It was a powerful learning moment to be practicing rescue techniques andsuddenly be the first on scene to a real climbing accident that happened to anearby climbing party. They were glad to have been in place to be able to helpout and learn in the process. The rescue team was unable to contact the fallen climber after turning care over to EMS but news reports said that the climber was released the next day with “minor injuries.” Analysis: Tying into the end of the rope has long been the standard practice for this type of situation and would have avoided this accident alltogether. In situations where clipping into the rope makes more sense, many people would make the case for 2 locking carabiners at the attachment point. Whether to clip into the belay loop or the two strong points of the harness is another point many people have strong feelings about, in this case we do not know where the climber was actually clipped in. Locking carabiner failure in this way is extremely rare and it leads to a few hypotheses of what may have happened: 1. It seems very likely that the carabiner was not locked when Jeremy leaned backon the rope. 2. Perhaps the carabiner was not even closed entirely having been caught on either some fabric of the harness or rope or on the locking mechanism itself. 3. After not being closed, the carabiner may have been somehow loaded along the major axis and then, after it was stretched out, loaded along the minor axis. 4. The carabiner may have been pushed open and loaded to the side in such a way that the gate could swing around the side of the nose, allowing it to hyperextend. Other options are certainly possible. What we do know in this case is that tying into the end of the rope or using 2 locking carabiners would have almost certainly have avoided this accident. Jeremy was not wearing a helmet. Although many people do not wear helmets when top roping at single pitch crags such as this, he was extremely lucky to survive an 80 foot fall without a helmet and not sustain any head injuries. Top roping through the chains is often considered poor etiquette because it puts substantial wear on the chains as person after person lowers off the route. In this situation, had the knot jammed up against a couple of carabiners it may or may not have held the force that the knot jammed against the small links was able to hold. Strangely, top roping through the chains may have helped save Jeremy’s life. While Jeremy held as tight as he could to the fixed rope as he fell, he sustained substantial rope burns to his hands. Bone was visible in a few fingers. His reaction to grab the rope and hold as tight as he could resulted in painful rope burn and slowed his fall and kept him upright. This undoubtedly contributed to his survival. The tree 15 feet from the ground seemed to have been perfectly sized and positioned to slow Jeremy’s fall even further. He was very luck to have been slowed down by shock absorbing tree branches (that eventually broke) before he hit the ground. Lastly, having experienced rescue and medical personnelright at hand combined with the proximity to the road and EMS made for a rescue that could not have been any more straightforward.
If you'd like to learn more about this course, you can read an article we wrote about cliff rescue for ski patrol in Ski Patrol Magazine at RescueRigger.com/crsp.
Steve has been one of the leading forces behind this course, the video and the article. He's a lead instructor at Remote Rescue Training and mastermind of all sorts of wilderness/rescue/medical technology products such as vrigger,wasatchbackcountryskiing and beaconreviews.
Nicely done, only have two ideas to consider. 1. Use a knot to extend the insulating DCD so that you have more of true belay angle. 2. Use a scissors technique to tend your personal prusik as you feed the running end to the DCD. Hands on the prusik add to potential reactionary gap. Looks like you are streamlining DC TTRS in general, but keeping things quick but still efficient.
The whole thing was a bit strange, but there are some explanations. Check out the note on the Remote Rescue Training Facebook page (sorry youtube won't let me put a link in).
