I’m not familiar with your oven heater but have you tried partially shutting those baffles while it’s burning hot to see if it slows down your draft instead of choking down the air? This may help the heat soak into the bricks faster without a dirty burn? Anyway to monitor flue temps? This would be a good way to monitor what’s going on as well.
Thank you for making these fantastic and thorough videos! I’d love to see more examples of old Finnish and Swedish masonry heater/stoves. I’m building an off grid cabin in Swedish Lapland and was planning on building a classic Swedish kakelugn or rörspis. Do you have and recommendations on books or schematics for building your own stove?
Your infrared themometer is seeing a reflective metal surface, which includes cooler images lowering your overall reading. The wall is much less reflective surfac e giving a more accurate reading
Thanks for the update! These experiments are fantastic, they're giving me ideas for how I'd like to build a "root cellar" into the foundation of our home. As always, I greatly appreciate you putting out these videos!
great! Obviously I am doing this principally for my own benefit, I am growing more and more veg every year but there is no point if I can't store it. But I decided to document in the hope that it might help other people. Glad you are finding it useful.
I'm curious whether the exhaust is as clean on the 2nd burn as the first, what the temperatures are on the exhaust and whether they're using the same amount of wood (I apologize if you said this last and I just didn't catch it). Part of the point of the rocket mass heater is to have a very clean burn. It would also be interesting seeing a head to head of a this against the same amount of wood in a well designed rocket mass heater (could be someone else's) as a comparison. How heavy is this? The small footprint is appealing for certain situations. I suspect like other masonry heaters it would require some remodeling for support to add to an existing home.
It weighs around 800kg so it definitely needs a good foundation. No, the exhaust on the first burn is much cleaner. This is something that I find a bit annoying about the Rocket mass heater community and the way they use this term 'clean efficient burn' This just means you extract the maximum amount of heat from the wood and that the exhaust is cleaner but says absolutely nothing about how efficiently the heat is actually used, how much heat is lost up the chimney etc. This is why I wanted to show this test, to show that a much less 'efficient' burn can actually be far more efficient in terms of useful heat. I am planning a RMH project so I may be able to do that side by side comparison myself!
@@downdirty9642 I do understand a little bit, I have a crappy channel that I update every once in a while. I'll be working on it over the summer, I hope to document the build as it transpires. So, thank you for taking the time to study your heaters and share your knowledge with the masses, it is greatly appreciated!!
@@downdirty9642 I purchased a 4K camera and a gimbal so that I could produce a slightly higher quality video series. The end goal for our home is to have the smallest amount of input to keep it warm throughout the winter. Full off-grid. No septic, no well. It'll have some key aspects from the Annualized Geo Solar principles incorporated into the foundation. The center of the home will be the utility corridor, much like your home design in this video. I'm just waiting for the snow to melt so that I can get busy building!
In the dirt. I think you mean I should bury the freezer IN the dirt? I considered that but the ground here freezes down to about 1 meter so It would make little or no difference.
This is the problem. This particular heater is in a 14m2 room but it cannot be viewed in isolation, It is just around the corner from the baking oven, in the other direction there is the sauna stove on the other side of the wall. They all work together to heat the space. I wish it were so simple.
The most effective masonry heater I've experienced was at my aunt & uncle's house in Minnesota, and I was kind of amazed by it as a kid. It actually drew cold air from outside the house rather than warm air from inside. As my uncle explained, 'if you let it draw from inside the house, the house will suck in the cold outside air anyway to replace that, so you may as well draw it directly from outside." I never knew exactly how the inside of it worked, but I remember it taking an armload or two of wood in the bottom chamber and a few sticks in a tiny upper chamber. You had to light the upper chamber first and let it burn for fifteen minutes before lighting the bottom chamber. It didn't *seem* to be getting hot at all - the outside of the heater was only a couple dozen degrees fahrenheit warmer than the house. But two armloads of wood (and a handful of sticks) kept it warm for four or five days. The chimney didn't seem to smoke at all, and there was hardly any ash left when it was time to light the next fire.
So you run your awesome bake oven with draft fully open until it's fully roaring, then damper it down (not closed, guessing hallway by the look of your fire and speed of flames) for the next two and a half hours, then fully open the damper again (full air) ... very nice I see that as very efficient ... for my wood insert I run it wide open whenever there's new wood loaded ... then damper to engage secondary combustion ... I'm sure my insert is hopelessly inefficient compared to yours .... I guess a good sign is that my glass is nearly always clean and the neighbors have never complained in 20 years (there are easily 100 houses nearby)
So jealous of your masonry heater, I am stuck with a cast iron wood insert Looks delicious ... what could be better than home grown butternut squash and parsnips! (and yes we have grown both here in Ohio) Thank you for putting these videos together, please make more 😊
Thanks for the constructive criticism. You are just the second person to point this out and I think I have fixed the problem in my latest video. just had to do a final watch through with volume at max and adjust the levels of each sound clip. Let me know if it is better if you watch the next video in this series (Russian Rocket)
@@downdirty9642 Oh that one I saw before these baking oven ones, there the overall volume is quite low, but more consistent. I recommend you listen to some song or video first, set the song/video to max volume in the browser/app, then your speakers to a comfortable level and then edit your video's audio to that same level.
Per my comment below,.... the draft is very impressive, but that's because of the extremely long riser in that giant metal tube. A "J" rocket will draft like that on a small, 3 foot (or less) riser. Please see my comment below on the website you must see.
Thanks again for the good video and excellent graphics that assist. The stove though, is not a rocket. It's simply the Russian concept of "burning inside the bell" combined with a European style "counterflow" masonry heater that goes up through the baking oven, down the sides, and out the bottom. Burning "inside the riser" or inside the bell does not produce the massive draw of a "J design" rocket. Even the "batch box" has somewhat of a J design and draws far more than burning inside the riser. If that was the same, the "rocket stove" addicts would be doing it! - I'm building a similar design now to what you just talked about, but I'm using bricks based off this old "USSR era" Russian stove,... which is very similar to EU "counterflow." Trust me.. if you don't know this website OR you can't see the link because, like you said in another comment.. it's Russian... you need to find a way to see this website... Get a VPN or something....... I can tell your interests are like mine. You MUST see this site. You'll be entertained for weeks. - Matt air-hot.ru/index.php/pechiikaminy/otopitelnyepechi/166-pech-kovalevski-2200 This is what I am replicating. The site is simply air-hot.ru
Very interesting, thank you. I particularly appreciate your diagrams. Perhaps the chief lesson here is that excess air might drive an impressive blaze but is also pushing heat up the chimney (not to mention pulling cold air into the house to replace it). I have a question about construction - how do you get the metal case over the brick lining - have you very high ceilings, or is it in sections that can be dismantled? I struggled to even get an oil drum over a tall rocket riser because of the ceiling and would appreciate any tips. Thanks again 👏💯
Exactly. That is what I meant when I said I have problems with the term 'efficient burn' Fast and hot may be very efficient at getting the max heat from the fuel and minimising emissions but It can be very inefficient in terms of giving 'useful' heat . The pönttöuuni is built in sections with each section measuring 60cm in height. Place the section, build the brickwork inside...and a bit higher, then next metal section in place. repeat.
@@batchrocketproject4720 Well as I said, here in Finland they produce the metal shells, 80cm in Diameter, 60 cm tall sections that lock together. They are quite lightweight but a bit bulky for shipping I guess. I could make some enquiries, I am sure they would ship internationally.
@@downdirty9642 burn slow as you do by restricting air for fuel (wood), but add little extra air just above tulipesä to burn unburnt gasses for cleanliness. one of your drawings had somewhat this idea
@@downdirty9642 Thank you for the offer but I like to build from common items. Oil drums are close to 60cm diameter but create the headroom problem during installation, so I will experiment with reliable methods of cutting and joining them.
Thanks - really interesting ;-) How I see it and think it is/was: The reason for the older model's different design is that previously they did not use the type of ceramic insulation that we have and can use today. In order to achieve some form of insulation between the channels, the wall thickness was therefore increased in some places in the older model. The outer metal barrel set a limitation, so therefore the wall thickness of the internal channels had to be set according to the best possible judgement. I therefore believe that we must take this into account when we want to develop a new model based on old experiences. In the new improved model, we should take into account both the physical "laws" and properties, and recent experience for each individual component. We want to achieve as good a draft in the oven as possible and at the same time as good a utilization of the heat energy as possible. Design principles can therefore be: Every time the flue gas rises, we regard it as a chimney where we want as high a speed as possible and with as little heat loss as possible, because a heat loss in an upward flue gas will slow down the flue gas because the density increases, i.e. we insulate the chimney. Because we work with a closed system, each section, i.e. an upward or a downward section, should be seen separately. Every time the flue gas is cooled, we want this to take place when the flue gas is in a downward direction, because the cooling increases the density and therefore cooling in a downward direction helps to increase the draft in the furnace. (Large cross-sectional area and large volume in the downward channel is desirable, and relatively large wall surface with good thermal conductivity and large thermal mass. The large volume gives the flue gas time to release heat. Think: bell). There may (probably) be a need to use a shunt damper when the oven is started. And perhaps also one or more other dampers if the stove is built in an area with very low winter temperatures, because when it is extra cold outside you can actually allow the flue gas to be cooled a little more and still have a heat surplus (differential temperature, i.e. temperature difference between bottom and top of the chimney ) to drive the flue gas up through the chimney. On the other hand, this will also complicate the use of the stove, so it is probably worth considering how much it should be optimized because if you do not understand how to use the stove, you will end up with smoke in the house. And thank you for the description of why you remove the glowing coals from the stove. I'm thinking whether you could make a system where you can push the glowing coals into a small, separate mini-furnace, which is airtight (i.e. carbon monoxygen-tight) in relation to the house. But if it can't be made carbon monoxide safe, it's probably better to carry the glowing coals outside as you showed. You showed in a previous video "Finnish masonry heaters. -The baking oven. Part 2." , that this oven has a secondary combustion chamber, and now I understand even better the significance of this.
I basically agree with everything you said. Yes, using modern insulating materials would would allow the space to be re-thought and optimised. Absolutely possible to make the ash-compartment double as a secondary chamber with it's own small flue (bypassing the baffle) to draw off CO as in my big baking oven thereby allowing baffles to be sealed at the optimum point. I think that when you said 'shunt damper' you mean a bypass or summer damper. This goes without saying. Almost all fireplaces and heaters have that here. In addition I want to take a much harder look at the material used as thermal mass and create the best combination of fast and slow heat absorbers/releasers. I think there is a lot of potential for some major improvements in performance.
Technically I think all Sauna heaters are masonry heaters in that they use a heat source to heat up stones which then radiate heat into your room. I do not like electric sauna heaters & only use wood fired. There are two main kinds. Single heat or continuous heat. Single heat takes much longer to heat, has a far larger amount of stones, but when the fire goes out you close the stove up and go to sauna. Continuous heat means you burn wood to heat (usually) a smaller amount of stones. It heats quickly but you continue to feed wood in even once it is hot and you are using the sauna. Actually I just realized there is a third kind but that is the smoke sauna stove. I am planning a video about sauna heaters and mine, which I need to fix soon (This Spring).
Very nice, thank you. The Pönttöuuni reminds me of the Utermark stove, which was developed in the Russian empire in the 1820s (ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Печь_Утермарка ). I think that's where the idea of the metal sheet came from, as Finland was part of the Russian empire at the time. The Utermark stove had several up and down channels to maximise thermal efficiency by getting the last bit of heat out of the exhaust gases.
For some reason the link does not work. Probably our idiot government blocking anything Russian. I'll check out the Uttermark stove though. Thanks for the tip!
If I may I'm operating 2 coal stoves a stoker and a hand fired. 3rd and 5th year. To burn efficiently I've been a gusting them like a carburetor . Could you make an adjustment on the wide open stove buy closing one door and adjusting the other door . The other stove seal the door tite and leave the ashes.
I have absolutely no experience with any coal fired heater/stove. I think it is probably 20 years since I have seen a piece of coal! So I am sorry, I cannot help you with this.
There’s my way and then there’s the wrong way 🤷♂️ I think the most famous pönttöuuni right now is painted in the long drink colors. You can find it by searching ”long drink + pönttöuuni”, even the newsmedias covered it just a few days ago. When people renovate the old houses, nowadays they tend to paint the oven to match rest of the interior. I still very much like the function over form look of them.
search (highlight words right click/longtap - search google for "long drink + pönttöuuni" ) the thing he put in quotation marks. ( " ) @@downdirty9642 It is painted, but functioning. Good example of each to his/her/their/its own. & Your own way is always the right way. Unless you burn the house. Stay warm everyone.
Very nice videos. I think that you will eventually stop damping down your masonry heater. A properly sized masonry heater, when used properly, can go on for some years without need of chimney cleaning. Sure, they accumulate some light ash, but really nothing that demands attention. Your willingness to do a cleaning twice a year is no big deal -if you are doing it yourself. But if you are bringing in a chimney sweeper twice a year, that is a real expense and so contrary to the masonry stove lifestyle. Here in America, in northern Maine, if you can even find a competent sweep, you will sell a kidney to pay his fee. Also, be mindful, that those who decide for whatever reason to cut firebox air during a burn, will get creosote on the interior brickwork. I can promise you that you will not get those interior channels clean of all creosote. At some point, the creosote will burn. That will crack your interior layer of firebrick. And, moreover, cleaning that creosote degrades the interior masonry over time and also will cause cracking. A masonry stove is an heirloom item. It should go on for decades without a hitch. Please reconsider cutting air supply. On a different note, your coal/ash chute is ingenious.
Thanks for your comments. I should explain that while I heat my house exclusively with wood it is not heated exclusively with this baking oven. I have 6 stoves/heaters so, yes, the chimneys are swept twice a year. I do it once myself and then have the professional chimney sweep do it once. In fact here in Finland if I do not hire a certified sweep once a year then my house insurance will not pay out in the case of fire damage. It costs about 250 euros which I don't think is too bad once a year.
I find the creosote thing interesting as we don't really have any problem with it here, could it depend on what kind of wood one burns? The baking oven had been used for 60 years when I rebuilt the fire box and there was no creosote. In the ten years of use since then it has not got any creosote in there. Hardwoods grow so slow here that it can't be used for firewood, the hardest wood we can burn is birch. Then we have pine and spruce, alder and aspen. Maybe it's the hardwoods that make creosote?
No. Creosote is not related to whether you burn hardwood or softwood. It results from water in the smoke exhaust. Also, when damping down the stove, you cool the little amount of moisture in the seasoned hardwood or softwood such that over time you will accumulate creosote. The beauty of a masonry stove includes the fact that you have peace of mind from creosote issues. @@downdirty9642
@@downdirty9642it is very easy to create creosote here in Ohio with unseasoned wood ... meaning too much moisture... no matter what hardwood... I notice your splits are small... maybe four inches in diameter at most ... so I'm guessing your small splits are well seasoned and you put about 25 pounds in for your daily fire ... Imo that is extremely efficient 😊
@@stevechurch2126 Most of my firewood sits in log piles in the forest for 2-4 years. I then cut it to length and re stack it here at the house where it dries for another year, I then split it and re stack it under cover for a year then I move it inside the woodshed in spring for use the following winter. In practice all that means that every Sunday is firewood day and I have the next 3 years of firewood drying in my wood yard. By the time I use it it could be argued that is has been drying 5 -6 years.
Ok, I am going to subscribe. With my 130 year Shop building and 170 year old House, both of which are brick, I believe I can benefit from your content. Thanks. John in Bethel, Missouri. USA.
It's both, Traditionally here the baking oven is placed at the center of the building and is the main heat source, the old ones often had steps or a ladder next to them and a sleeping place on top for really cold nights. As in my case they often have a cook stove next to them, some times cast iron, which will give quick heat but it cools quickly once you stop feeding wood into it so it is the slow release heat of the baking oven that keeps the house warm.
@@OKuusava No, we don't need any heating at all in the summer. Traditionally here most of the bread was made in winter, they were round flattish loaves with a hole in the middle that were threaded onto long poles that hung up at ceiling levels to dry. So fresh bread was a winter treat.
If you change it for a new one its better. I am planning on having a guy building a masonry oven in my house. My 4-5 year old heatpump is putting out 1.5 cop in -25C but colder its freeses up and start to go on straight electricity. Thanks for a awesome video that baking oven looks great.
I’m watching this video in Missouri, too, where it is -8 degrees. I have an old brick German house in Bethel. I am hoping to build one of these in my basement.
@@classifiedinformation6353 Good luck with that. I am currently drawing up layer -by - layer plans for a baking oven based on mine but with some improvements. Planning to perhaps publish them as an ebook or something. let me know if you are interested.
@@classifiedinformation6353 Ahh, you're WAY out there in the middle of no-where. Excellent! I'm just south of St. Louis in a rural area, but nothing like your area. I too am looking at types of heat sources. Enjoying videos like these. If you haven't, also check out "Rock mass heater". The amount of thermal mass in the cob/stone/mortar will stay warm for days after the fuel runs out. Rock on, be safe!
Your wood consumption is 4 times as much as in a soapstone stove to achieve the same temperature! If your stove is so efficient, why does soapstone cost 100 times more than your brick? Everyone would then build a brick oven.....
Well we are talking about two different things. I never claimed my baking over is super efficient, the video is about how it works and how I use it. Soapstone has very unusual thermal qualities which make it perfect for making stoves which will heat quickly and release the heat into your space quickly also. Quickly compared to brick which takes much longer to absorb the heat but also releases it much more slowly. Two different materials for two different types of stove/heater. I don't know if I am using 4 times the wood, maybe, One neighbour has a soapstone stove, maybe I should do a test. Good idea for a new video. But Firewood is not an issue for me here, I have the next three years of firewood out there drying and an unlimited supply so that I add a years worth annually.
I have a Tulikivi TU 1000 with 1 extra layer.... And I live in Belgium. So you heat regular non-heat absorbing bricks every day🤔? Not even chamotte /bricks?
The baking oven was built 74 years ago from handmade red brick, Made just down the road from here. I re-did the firebox with firebrick about ten years ago. All bricks absorb and release heat, just to different degrees and at different rates. Is your Tulikivi (direct translation Firestone) made with soapstone?
Yes. I have thought about doing some tests with soapstone, I have a couple of pieces left over from a Tulikivi stove. There seems to be the idea that it stays hot for longer but that does not make sense if you look at it's thermal properties. It does store more heat (a clay brick can hold about 85% of the heat that soapstone can capture) but it's heat transfer rate is about 6 times faster than brick so it will absorb the heat much faster but of course that means it releases it 6 times faster also.
Sorry Stefan but that is not true. The soapstone heats up faster and then releases that heat faster into the house and if that is what you want then you made an excellent choice by getting your soapstone Tulikivi fireplace. My brick baking oven takes longer to heat up but it then releases the heat much more slowly and evenly over a longer period of time. When we have an extended period of cold here. like we just had, 10 days between -20 & -29 degrees C, then I prefer the slow release which keeps the temperature in the house warm and even without having to heat the oven every day.
