Been there. I got one day and had to "use" my regular vacation/overtime to help my wife. I didn't even know it was raised to two weeks. Good thing. Still embarrassing.
The thing is: Would you rather have the government take away let's say 10% of your salary so that you get an additional month "for free" with each new child (which is financially worse than equivalent unpaid vacation)? The money has to come from somewhere. I guess the only thing I could see as a useful improvement is that fathers could have a right to a longer leave + job guarantee while taking a couple of months of unpaid parental leave like some other countries have it where you can't be fired while on parental leave or right after it, just without the government/society paying for it.
I live close to Stuttgart and work as a Software Engineer and make 180k Euros gross a year and live in a debt-free self owned apartment. I dont think I can save more money in a month by moving to Switzerland ? I really would need to earn smt like 250k CHF annual to make it for me financally worthwhile but this is quite difficult to achieve. I dont want to grind leetcode to get into Google Zurich or Meta after already having a million net worth already. All other Swiss companies do not seem to cross 200k CHF annual gross line for software developers and that amount I can already make in cheap Germany. Any advice?
Not possible to say in general. On the hand, you already have a very high salary for German standards. It is also not really possible to say whether you could have a higher income in e.g. Zurich vs Stuttgart just from moving without knowing more about your particular role. It might be higher in Zurich, but it could even be lower because sometimes that particular skill set is highly in demand in your current city Stuttgart but not in Zurich. Generally in your level of income and also net worth, it is more interesting to save on taxes than having a higher salary. You could hypothetically pay much less income tax and capital gains tax (since in CH there are no capital gains taxes on typical private investments within certain limits) therefore improving your annual savings bottom line even if your gross salary stays the same and your cost of living goes up. Tax savings can sometimes overcompensate higher cost of living between "cheaper" countries and Switzerland, effectively making Switzerland the cheaper country. If you are interested, this might be a case for a 1:1 consultation with me, let me know. The information contained herein is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as legal, tax or immigration advice. We recommend consulting with a qualified professional for guidance specific to your situation. Viewers should seek professional advice before making any decisions or taking any actions based on the information presented. 38Countries is not liable for any losses or damages arising from the use of this channel or the information presented. By accessing and using the information presented on this channel, you acknowledge and agree to this disclaimer.
I would not say so. In all the neighboring countries of Switzerland, you get more "free" things from the government so you pay for it with higher taxes. So your individual performance and budgeting does not really matter so much. In Switzerland, if you screw up, do not save money etc. things will be less fun than in Germany for example where the government will often bail you out.
That’s funny as my ex lives in Switzerland and I have never seen such a good social support. He got free time from work to go to some kind of mental spa to get mental break from job. Fully paid. By state.
Thanks so much for answering my question in such an informative video format. This definitely lightens things up as I was quite worried that the lack of a CS degree would really dampen our chances. Regarding kids, our eldest one is already 5 years old currently and therefore would not incur us kindergarten costs. That leaves us with only one child who would, in the case that we both get jobs, need to be looked after at kindergarten/day care. But like you said, if we both work we’d have more income to finance kindergarten, and if only one of us works, then we wouldn’t need kindergarten. I’d definitely like to keep in touch and get some advice from you when it’s time to start sending out job applications, if you don’t mind
Android is probably going a bit better in Switzerland than iOS. Most Swiss users have an iPhone so there seems to be more iOS devs as well and less (experienced) Android developers. At this point this is a subjective impression though.
USA used to require at least bachelors degree for H1B work visas. Masters degree was preferred - my immig lawyer told me so. From the tone of this video it sounds that CH is more flexible in this regard.
If you need a visa, a degree might be more helpful than otherwise, at least on paper. Most Europeans do not require a special visa but only the automatic work permit. But generally yes, a degree is not a formal requirement. The only thing that matters for a non-EU-EFTA citizens is that your skills are special enough so that nobody else can be found for a while to do the job.
While I understand that there are reservations in Switzerland for more immigrants coming, I think the facts say otherwise. If people stop moving to Switzerland, the AHV will collapse. Also, Avenir Suisse says that Switzerland has space for 12M people, approx. 3M more than now. At any rate, Switzerland is far from being the most densely populated European country. The Netherlands have a higher density of population and they are doing just fine.
I totally agree. Also too many tourists (most of them come just to brag with friends back home and take stupid selfies, they don't give a damn about Swiss history....if Burundi tomorrow becomes the new "cool" destination they would all go there), Switzerland should start charging tourists 200 CHF per day, like Buthan, to reduce mass tourism and its impact on the environment. I am a foreigner here, but I can see how the country is overcrowded and its quality of life has plummeted, if I could I would vote Yes on the upcoming referendum to cap population growth. The trains for example are constantly overcrowded, jesus christ. I couldn't care less what the rich capitalists of Avenir Suisse, from their villas with private driver, say...if anything I'd do exactly the opposite of what they advice. We can raise taxes for the rich to cover any gaps on AVH or whatever. And no, they are not going to "flee" as they always threaten...where are they going, to some craphole like Dubai or some banana republic in the Caribbeans?
@@38countries Yes, let's all live like sardines in a can, so that the rich capitalists of Avenire Suisse, who live in villas with private drivers, can make even more money and pay even less taxes. If anything we should do exactly the opposite of what they say.
OK, you may think so. I think that it is against your own genuine interest though. It's not about "the rich capitalists" of Avenir Suisse or multinational corporations at all. I do not know your circumstances, but in the end, not the rich, but instead the normal middle-class resident of Switzerland (Swiss or not) is going to suffer when qualified immigrants stop coming and paying for all the wealth that Switzerland can currently offer to the middle class. It's gonna be your AHV (and mine), your medical care personnel (or the lack thereof), your health insurance premiums going up and so on. People like you and me will suffer if qualified immigrants stop coming. Immigration also helps keep the average population age lower therefore slowing the democratic catastrophe that is heading for us, a giant systematic problem of all highly developed countries with low birth rates. Many people in Switzerland understand this or are smart enough to follow clever leaders, so far. Otherwise Switzerland would not be where it is right now. While "taxing the rich" is morally questionable since taxation is fundamentally a form of extortion and theft, you will not get rich people to pay an even higher amount of taxes than they already do (remember they can move somewhere else easier than most people). Instead it's more likely that VAT and all sorts of cost the average person has to bear will go up, which affects people who are not rich more than rich people. Just look at the current AHV 13th discussion. It's a massive boomerang against the statists (plus unfair towards future generations since AHV is a ponzi scheme). Sure, you are gonna say I sound like Avenir Suisse now. But this is the actual truth. I would not cut the branch I am sitting on.
@@38countries The middle class is already suffering...with overcrowded trains (the "amazing Swiss trains"...chronically full), overcrowded infrastructure... Taxation is not theft...it pays your roads, schools, etc...the internet that so many clueless people like you are using, was invented by the US government, through DARPA, not by some mythological private company. Same for the HTTP protocol, invented at CERN, not in some profit-driven startup. The rich won't move anywhere if we tax them more... Where exactly are they going to move? Most low tax countries are dumps, Switzerland is an exception, I don't think these riches will trade their quality of life to live in a hellhole like Dubai or in some banana republic in the Caribbeans. But in any case they are welcome to move, let's see how many would really follow their "threats" and how many will then come back with their tail between their legs.
Good video. Is owning a car in CH expensive/painful? The answer would impact my choice of where to live. Also, are there detached house suburbs (US style) in CH?
Why would you fixate so much on owning a car? Switzerland and especially zurich has very good public transport that will be both much cheaper and probably more convenient to use rather than a car.
Very accurate advice. If you live alone 120T as an expat shall be the minimum. But if you need to provide for a family with that salary forget it. Don't be naive guys, universal rules apply also in Switzerland
Thank you for your amazing video! We're currently thinking of moving to Switzerland from Germany and considering all the factors incl prices, quality of living etc. So your video is very helpful. Could you confirm the prices for Kitas, are they really that insanely high?
Yes, taking care of a child requires a lot of time if you do it yourself, so accordingly it will cost a lot of money for somebody else to take that task over from you. But the math is really simple here. The average salary in Zurich is around 8'500 CHF per month. Times two it's 17K per month or 204K p.a. gross salary per household. With that household income you can afford to pay around 3K p.m. for daycare, approx. 17% of your combined gross salary. It's kind of like a 17% tax to get free child care. If you do not meet those numbers, it makes more sense financially to not outsource child care and instead do it "inhouse".
@@38countries Inflationary monsters in the closet and under the bed. Salaries of the meer mortal cannot complete with year-over-year cost of living increases.
Good point. Then again the middle class can save and invest in Bitcoin and friends, which not even Warren Buffet is doing at the moment. But yeah, if you don't have savings or are not risk taking, you will definitely feel the inflation.
@@38countries Bitcoin unfortunately has a perception problem with volatility. The demographic of middle class often prioritizes financial stability and security. But yes, the financially wise would say 'no risk, no reward'
I'm always search about swiss stuff on RU-vid. But I'm just finding few youtuber.Since swiss people quite introvert.Therefore, if I search about swiss stuff , I go to Reddit
I am not making millions yet if that is the real question behind it. But I probably would not advertise it, because money is only relevant within certain boundaries, so you can afford everything that you need for a good life, a bit of a safety net for your family and so on. Some companies definitely pay 150K or more for a solid senior or lead developer. But while attainable, don't expect these jobs to be handed to you, especially not in 2024. In 2020 and 2021 it was a bit easier.
Hi Charly, generally not so easy but depends on your specialization. Senior roles are much easier to get in Switzerland in general. But again, a junior in LLMs might have it easier than an expert in PHP.
Thanks to make out of box topic cost of living & salary & savings for those who want to settle in Switzerland dream country for Asian. My childhood friend shifted to Switzerland last week as his son & daughter in law got the job . It's really pleasing to hear you more on food & politics in Switzerland and trains timing extra when you compare with Germany trains. Sound nice one request to you make one video giving with Switzerland Asian country comparision on the same thumbnail
Hi Rajama! Yes, some videos on these topics are coming. Congrats to your in laws for landing the job in Switzerland, it is the start of an amazing journey and the dream for many. Do you have anything in mind to compare in particular between Switzerland and Asian countries (which countries are you thinking of?)?
Great video!! I am planning to move in to Switzerland after 3 years, can you please suggest good product-based companies that pay well, so that I'd be prepared for it at that point of time
Thank you for the content! Really appreciated. Do you think that it is hard for someone from Brazil to land a job in Switzerland? I have a CS degree and 4 years of experience.
Hey there, @edugmu21! Switzerland is a great destination for software developers, and your ambition to work here is awesome! Here's a heads up: It's true that companies might be hiring a bit less right now compared to the previous year. Plus, there are some regulations in Switzerland that favor applicants from the EU/EEA. But that doesn't mean it's impossible for you! Here's the good news: Your skills matter! If you have a strong specialization in a sought-after area of software development, you'll definitely stand out. Help is available! Consider getting some professional guidance on how to market yourself effectively to Swiss employers. This can make a huge difference. Send me a message if you need help. With your talent and the right approach, you can definitely make your dream a reality! I believe in you!
You're spot on. The most striking aspect of Germany to me is how incredibly boring, depressing, and stiflingly bureaucratic the country is. You really feel like you're in a prison: no room for creativity, innovation, or some spicy risk. I have seen more animated cemeteries. 3:38
Thanks for making video on this topic. Even I want to move to Switzerland and I am into IT as Data Scientist. More videos on how to find jobs from home-country or exact detailed steps for interview related videos will be helpful. Thanks.
Hey Monica, have you checked out this video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-OHDL7OsSmrs.html What else would you like to know in particular?
Jou, d Schwiz isch äs Märli. Aber we me Softdeveloper ohni CS-Abschluss isch, isch es unmöglich derthi z ga go schaffe. So gsieht's für mi wenigschtens uss.
Translation for all non Swiss German speakers ;-) "Yes, Switzerland is a fairytale. But if you don't have a degree in Computer Science, it is very hard to reach those numbers. At least that's my experience." (Hope I translated it correctly?) Mostly I agree. In Europe and especially all German-speaking countries a degree is considered important. However I feel like in Switzerland they are actually slightly less important as long as you have relevant experience instead. In the end, I think what matters most is how replaceable you are. If there are many others who can do your job, you can never reach a very high salary, not matter how many degrees you have.
Hello. Great video as usual. Been watching your content for a long time and I have aspirations to move to Switzerland. I am Lebanese with 2.5 years of experience in Software Development, and I have a bachelor degree. Would you say things are especially more complex for people coming from the Middle-East (also given the current unstable situation with the war), or is it equally difficult for anyone coming from non EU/EFTA/UK citizens?
Hi @christianhabis8554, I don't think that being Lebanese makes a dramatic difference over other non-EU/EFTA citizenship holders. More relevant are your tech as well as language skills. For the most part, Switzerland is nicely meritocratic, at least in software engineering. While salaries tend to be a good deal lower in the French speaking part, it could be wise to focus on that one in the beginning if you are good with French like many Lebanese are. If you speak neither German, French nor Italian your choice will be limited but it does not have to be a bad thing. I think the really good roles in Switzerland are English based anyways. It will significantly increase the time to find such a role in the first place + visa sponsorship though, but the role might be better and more technologically interesting. Sidenote: UK citizens are no longer preferred and have the same difficulties like every non-EU/EFTA citizen after the transition rule expired in 2022.
Thank you for the detailed reply. Yes I know French very well, but I am also learning German at the moment too. Hopefully this will increase my options in finding jobs here. Based on your answer, looks like I just have to keep grinding and applying for jobs as often as I can until one eventually works. Thanks again!@@38countries
Yes, that is a good starting point. If you want to take the short cut to getting a job in Switzerland, we can help you with that: 38countries.com/ch/job-coaching
Thanks for the video Raphael. I've been offered exactly CHF120K to work as a Java software engineer at UBS (Zürich), but I have two small kids and a wife that doesn't speak German... so I'm hesitating to make the move. The number seems too low for a family of four, even if we lived in the vicinity of Zürich and not the city itself... What would you advise? Knowing what you know, would you take the offer or look elsewhere? Thanks in advance for any advice!
You could make it if you optimize cost, but you won't be able to save a lot for the bad times / additional time off for family etc (see Topic 2 in the video) and it is a bit risky in general unless your wife will also be working once you move. If she makes e.g. 80K per year, so it's 200K p.a. pre-tax/social for the whole household that would be fine. Otherwise I'd look somewhere else first or prepare to be on a thin budget for a while, i.e. less vacation, luxury etc. Both strategies can work, depending on your risk appetite.
@@38countries thanks for the heads up! It seems like it’s a no-go for now then, I do not want to be dealing with the headaches of a tight budget. Either get a better offer, or move to Ticino instead (she speaks native Italian). I could commute from Lugano to Zürich, although I’m not sure for how long I could keep that up.
Yeah, as I explained in the other video, Ticino and Wallis can be great places to find a less expensive place to live, especially on a lower salary (always do the exact math though) vs Zurich. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-wygtd__11cs.html Ideally you should not have to commute to the office more than twice per week. I would never accept an offer where I have to come to the office every day unless I get paid a lot of money extra for that, i.e. an offer on the lower end does not qualify.
Future topic? Teams/Companies that use Linux vs Windows. Here in US the culture of teams/companies that use Linux is quite different from teams/companies that use exclusively Windows. Or maybe a more general topic - how the technologies in use affect the company/team culture. E.g. I know that CERN uses lots of Linux.
Hi. I'm a Swiss running a hackerspace in St. Gallen. I've worked a long time as a Dev and switched to DevOps at the last job working with Linux on a the servers. On the current job I have also users using Raspberry-Pis along with Windows-Clients (There is always some software that won't easily run on Linux) . I don't think you can generalize the company culture judging from the software being used. When it comes down, in the end all companies will need to pay their bills. Often the current management will need to stick to past technical decisions because switching is hard and can even heavily disrupt operations even when it's clear that the past decision weren't ideal. When I seek a job, I try to find one which needs my skills and where my favorite tools are accepted by the company.
What is a realistic salary for a junior software engineer with up to 1 year of work experience (during the Computer Science studies)? I would like to complete my graduation internship (Bachelorarbeit) in Switzerland and then live and work in the Zurich/Lucerne area. I'm Dutch and speak English + German.
Really depends on your specialization. While the statistics I referred to in the video are a bit misleading about senior and higher roles, I think they are more accurate on junior roles.
Manual testing may be a bit lower, but I do not think that automated test engineers (if that is what you meant) are significantly below software engineers on average.
In good companies automated test development is no different from other sw development, when it comes to salary. The job title is often "Software Engineer in Testing", something like that. Not sure about salaries of manual testers, I expect them to be quite a bit lower.
@@cernejr thank you so much! Do you think Switzerland (Geneva) would hire a Junior Software tester with no professional experience (from France ) or would they hire a 3y experience minimum? Do they give a chance to junior I mean...
The two salary boundaries from the video are pretty much what you should aim for. It depends a bit on your specialization, internships, language skills and so on. For example, PHP tends to pay a bit less. In cases like these, you may not be ready to move to / stay in Switzerland and another country might give you a better deal overall.
Very informative, thank you. Video topic suggestion: Out of 100 sw engineers in Switzerland, how many are typically Swiss born, how many are from EU, how many are from India? Here in US the H1B visas, which do not allow the visa holder to easily switch jobs, play huge negative role on salaries and working conditions for sw engineers. Also, are trade unions a thing in CH? And how well does CH govt regulate work - e.g. can employers demand unpaid overtime as here in US?
Great question. Switzerland is a somewhat similar in terms of employment law to the US, just less extreme. Notice periods are short, especially in your first year. It's a bit less dramatic to lose your job in Switzerland vs. the US on H1B, but it is a risk and at the very least a psychological burden. Since getting a visa for non EU/EFTA citizens is a significantly more complex task for employers with quotas, only about 7% of the Swiss working population are non EU/EFTA/UK citizens [1]. I estimate the percentage among software developers is a bit higher due to the special skills required, so let's say maybe about 10%. I am not sure what percentage of those 10% is Indian, but I am sure you can find that number somewhere. [1]: www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/work-income/employment-working-hours/economically-active-population/foreign-labour-force.assetdetail.26505677.html
@@38countries Thank you for the prompt and informative answer, it gives me a rough idea. Here in California there are companies where some 90% of developers and sw managers are from India. Many are on H1B visa, and as a result they are afraid to speak up. This impacts salaries, working conditions, and product safety.
I could imagine that this factor exists also in Switzerland, but to a lesser extent. There is certainly a bit more transparency about it in Switzerland since the government has put in some measures in place that try to make it harder for employers to bring in people from afar, undermining Swiss salaries and quality levels. Plus, Switzerland has much less of a hire and fire mentality even though the comparatively lax employment law in Switzerland would legally permit this practice. But this idea in part triggered me to make the video in the first place, so that newcomers to CH don't have a bad awakening a while after arriving because you might put yourself under a lot of pressure not to have to leave the country (many people are not good at dealing with this).
@@38countries Good information, thank you. Until recently I worked for Siemens, we had a branch in Baden, CH. My Swiss colleagues (as well as international colleagues working in Switzerland), seemed more relaxed compared to us here in California.
It varies a lot. The most important local languages are German and French and then there is also Italian. Traditional companies like banks, insurance companies and many small and medium enterprises often do require the local language. But multinational companies often don't since their main language often is English anyways.
My savings rate went from 60% to 10% after emigrating to a country with about 2X living cost, but 4X property cost, and living in a house 40% the size of my old one... so...
I've just found your channel, that's exactly what I needed! I'm gonna binge watch it! My I ask you 2 questions? 1) Do Switzerland give a chance to entry level positions? 2) I'm focusing on QA/Software Testing, do you feel it's common over there? I'm almost in the process of job applications, a couple of months and I'll apply, but I fear they really ask for qualified people, like min 3y of experience. I'm French and wish to apply in Geneva. In Zurich and German speaking zones are really thriving with IT jobs compared to the French speaking zones, and in the software testing they unfortunately ask you to speak German fluently. Thank you for your attention
Oh I see you do Ios development! I've started learning it 1y ago (Angela Yu's bootcamp and Paul Hudson 100daysofswift challenge). But decided to shift to QA to give me a better chance as I found it kind of difficult, coming from English teaching background.
Companies around the world always ask for people with 10 years experience, sometimes even if that is logically impossible. I have seen job ads where they asked for years of experience with visionOS while visionOS was only announced months ago and the first real hardware for it has not been released yet. So don't be afraid to apply anyways since such descriptions are often bogus and written by people who do not know very much about the job anyways. On the other hand, I think that entry level positions can be a bit tough as an immigrant to Switzerland. In the end it mainly matters how many applications they get. If you are the only decent applicant they have seen in weeks, they will most likely at the very least interview you. QA and manual testing is certainly a role in Switzerland, however test engineering, testing automation etc. is more common and more promising. Manual testing is a bit of niche and only certain companies have this role.
@@38countries Brilliant thank you very much! I assume you need at least to live in the city you work, or by the French border (and mention it on the CV), but you can't rent by the border/in Switzerland if you don't have a contract. Regarding testing I think I'll need minimum automation to be appealing. Thanks
I think it is similar to the rest of the world: A degree helps, especially because all these online courses do not force you to learn the boring basics like discrete math and few people understand that they will need those eventually. But a degree is not strictly necessary. What counts are the problems you can solve and also how well you work in a team.