Here’s a really fun lore fact a lot of people miss: Mario 3 is great but still not as good as Mario World. Your timeline placement raises the question of whether Luigi, Peach, and Toad are at all aware of the events of SMB2 or if it was just Mario.
The BS Mario games are surprisingly good. Insert shameless plug for my let’s plays of them. I love that Shy Guys don’t appear again until Yoshi’s Island, implying that Mario dreamed about them because they were so deep in his subconscious, being in his most distant memories from infanthood. So do the creatures in the dream world come from the dreamers’ subconscious? That could explain why there is a picture of Peach in Link’s Awakening or even imply that Wart is actually still from the storybook in the original Doki Doki Panic and came to rule Subcon because of children’s nightmares about him.
More lore than I expected! Peach already personally knew Daisy before Mario Land, and Luigi wasn’t in that game. So I would argue that they could have met before Land, even if I still think Land takes place first. Also, why is DK suddenly a banker? Is he Cranky or modern DK? P.S. Please check out the very excellent NES Golf Iceberg Explained (I forgot the actual title) video on RU-vid. It’s a masterpiece.
Most underrated game in the series, even if it’s not NEARLY the best. I read somewhere in 2017 that the sorcerer who cast the spell on Princess Zelda I is the wizard boss in one of the later palaces. I could have sworn it was a reliable source, but I can’t find it anymore. I’m very ready for a character named Kasuto in a later game. I never thought about the implications of the goddess statue, either! Very, very nice revelation.
Good stuff! The best lore related to Zero Mission is the backstory present in the manga. Can absolutely recommend. Of course, you might have already made a video on it, for all I know.
Solid intro to the series. I have plenty of things to say about Zelda lore but very little to say about the first entry. I appreciate your making me realize that the Christian imagery all but disappeared by OoT.
Oh, and I guess the debate on whether the Magical Sword IS the Master Sword because it was able to kill Ganon is a good debate. I’m not sure either way.
I didn’t consider it at the time, but BotW did bring in a heart requirement in order to retrieve the weapon, much like in this game. So that’s interesting. Minor note though, technically the Master Sword doesn’t kill Ganon. Any time he actually dies, it’s usually from some other weapon, like the Silver Arrow. The Master Sword just counteracts the power of the Triforce and makes him vulnerable.
@@SpoilerGoblin Good point! Spoilers for anyone reading these comments, but he does die completely to the Master Sword in Wind Waker and (I think) Twilight Princess (can’t remember 100%). So what if silver arrows are made from the same divine metal as the Master Sword? Has there ever been any other object that has killed him aside from those two and the Four Sword? I can’t remember for the Oracle games, even though I just played them a few months ago.
@@LPMaster6 I take a different reading honestly. I feel like the Silver Arrows are functionally the same as Light Arrows from later games, as, every time Ganondorf is killed, one of those two weapons is necessary (while the Sword does the killing blow in TP and WW, Light Arrows were used on him beforehand). This is likely because the Light Arrows are pure sacred energy, which can stem the power of darkness; silver, of course, is mythologically used to counteract the power of demons and other "impure" forces, which to me sounds like it does something very similar. I think they're relying on the classical use of silver in why they chose to use that specific metal. The only game that doesn't align with this is OoX, which... I mean, that isn't even Ganon at anything near his full power. He likely doesn't carry the protection of the Demon King in that state.
I don’t have anything to say that hasn’t already been said, but I love to think that TLL is the canon story of the two just because I love Bowser’s Brother/Blue Bowser existing, only for Mario to kill him in their very first meeting.
I still won’t assume that this takes place below New Donk City. Multiple places are said to be the location of the original Donkey Kong, including both New Donk and Big Ape City from DK Land 1, which is on DK Island. Plus, Miyamoto specifically said this game takes place under Brooklyn. (I think that was also in one of the Atari manuals, which leads to the misconception that it is in the arcade/NES manual.) Also, what about when Mario goes to war in a Vietnam-like jungle? I agree with the theory that Bowser sent the enemies in Mario Bros. and Wrecking Crew, due to the enemies changing in GBA Mario Bros. and the fact that Bowser commands the Wrecking Crew enemies in Wrecking Crew ‘98.
I don’t think Big City is on DK Isle. You’d think that the existence of a metropolis like that would be hard to ignore in the DKC games if that were the case. I think it’s more of a Yoshi’s Island situation, where the last world takes place in a different location, supported by DK and Diddy taking a blimp to get to the city. But I can understand not sharing that belief honestly.
As for Mario’s Bombs Away, it definitely shakes things up, but there does seem to be some kind of connection between the Mushroom World and Tour Earth based on other games, so it wouldn’t surprise me if Mario had traveled back and forth in his early career. But I do recognize that that is a stretch. We do know he spent his childhood in the Mushroom World though, given games like Partners in Time.
Yeah, the DK Land games are a little weird, especially given the situation of Land 2 being the only one that’s just a port of its SNES version. I still feel weird calling 1 and 3 canon but not that.
@@SpoilerGoblin Yeah, plus the idea of 1’s plot being based on the fact they’re on the Game Boy. Land 3 is the only one that makes sense, but it contradicts Country 3 because it implies they didn’t find the Lost World in that game. So maybe none of them are canon.
They have some issues, namely from the small screen size limiting view, but I think the Game Gear games are definitely worth a play if you like platformers… and I’m assuming you do, given how many you’ve played lol.
FYI, Emio is WAY longer than the previous two games. According to the already completed attempts in a few other gameplay channels and my own attempt, it takes an average between nearly 17 to over 19 hours to complete unless you speedrun, so brace yourself. That is as much sneak peek I can give you, as saying more will be spoilers.
To be honest, before this video, I understood the Protagonist's backstories more than Ayumi's as most is explained in the two remade games, especially in the Missing Heir. Plus, Ayumi's story is mostly in the side games that did not extends worldwide, so it's understandable if it fell under the radar.
That’s a big part of the reason why I wanted to do this video. I came into this not really knowing anything about the Satellaview game, and I figure that would be the case for most people, if they even knew it existed in the first place.
@@SpoilerGoblin Yeah. For example, me. Before this video, I did not know anything about Ayumi's Home town, her parents, her family, her tragedy when she was a baby, etc.
I never once contemplated Stanley the Bugman as a colonizer, but that does make sense. The area the greenhouse is located is rather close to DK Island, and we already have evidence DK Island had plenty of colonizers in the past, anyway. Perhaps Donkey Kong 3 could have taken place when Cranky and Junior finally left the New York/New Donk/wherever area to return home, only to find Stanley there along the way? I am disappointed you left out Junior II from Jr. Math and the strange implications she has a character, but she may not even be canon at all.
That’s kind of how I imagine this game, despite the inaccuracies with this original video. Tropical Freeze really reframed this game. You also aren’t the only person to disagree with my removal of DK Jr. Math. Some of the people I know in the bigger Mario Lore community have commented on it privately as well. I’ve been considering going back and giving that one its own video for some time, but I haven’t really made the firm decision either way yet. But I guess if I’m covering the questionably canon Zelda games (G&W and Satellaview) I should probably get around to it.
I love the geographical breakdown. I would have never considered the possibility that many of the worlds in this game could be connects to Odyssey worlds, except for obviously Big-City. My question is whether this game takes place on Earth or the Mushroom World. How do they get to the Mushroom Kingdom in the end? Are they one and the same world? And why does that tower have DK’s head on it? Did he build it himself? Why in the Rocky-Valley? So many unanswered questions in early Mario lore.
It seems clear from Odyssey that it’s in the Mushroom World. I’m under the head canon that, after DK saved the city in Donkey Kong Land, the city changed its name to New Donk from New York to celebrate its new hero. Like I said, it’s hard head canon, but it works. The jump cut to the Mushroom Kingdom is a little weird, but the existence of a warp pipe nearby implies to me they came through that maybe? It was a weird choice honestly, it feels like something else should be there. Back when I was making this video, I was actually trying to find a way to tie Rocky-Valley in with World 6 of DKCR, but nothing concrete wound up coming up. I just assumed that the tower had been there before, and was the Kongs ancestral home, possibly a part of DK Isle (which is implied to be somewhat near the Mushroom Kingdom in other games). But yeah, not a lot is explained. Those are just my takes on the questions you brought up, obviously they’re filled to the brim with head canon, hence why I didn’t try to answer them all in the video. Do you have opinions on any of those questions? It’s always interesting to see how other people read these things.
@@SpoilerGoblin I quite like your ideas there! Much more solid than mine. I always loved the idea that the pre-SMB games all take place on Earth, whereas the rest of the series takes place in the Mushroom World, a parallel world, possibly connected via warp pipes like the one in Rocky-Valley or in the Brooklyn sewers. I mostly got that idea from old, clearly non-canon cartoons, but it came back in the recent Mario movie, so who knows? Logically, though, your theory makes sense. It’s the simplest solution.
I do question the idea that New Donk and Big Ape City can even be in the same geographical area, though. We never see any human life in the DKC-era games-Never mind, just solved my own problems. Timeline stuff. Well, we don’t see the apes in Odyssey, though. Hmm. I don’t know.
Yeah, Mario being an Isekai situation has long been held as his backstory. The idea of all of this being in one world is actually a fairly recent take, I think, and one that I didn’t purposefully hold until after Odyssey.
I want to play through Emio first, but I almost did him rather than Ayumi in the first place, but decided that I wanted to talk about BS Tantei Club. I’ll keep him on the list. I’m glad you enjoyed!
@@SpoilerGoblin Thanks. And if possible, can you cover the plot of each game to make it easier to understand. Because each game has its plot mixed between events that happen now with events happened in the past which can be confusing at times.
Yeah, it's a little hard sometimes. Before Frontiers, it felt like Sonic Team was stuck in a major rut. But, even when the games are bad, the reason I want to talk about this series is because I love it.
Funnily enough, by the time I made this video, I don't think I'd ever played a Mother game in my life; I'd just been spoiled that the "Someone Else's Memories" scene existed and thought it seemed like interesting framing for the video. That said, I've now played all three and obviously love them immensely.
Honestly, your theory is as good as any until the movie comes out and we can all see it. I'm just a little sad that Amy won't be showing up. Unless, somehow, they're being super clever in how they hide her.
It's crazy that we got here years later. After this franchise (Movie-verse) had started with Sonic sitting in a Truck 😂. Not gonna lie, didn't expect I will see the day
Oh handsome. Didn't realize you had a vid that wasn't just your voice. And still alive thankfully. I've had my heart broken with a few people I found only to find they'd passed on. 😢
I still have nightmares from fighting that final boss. I made some of those connections myself, but I never would have connected VB Wario Land and Wrecking Crew '98. I also had NO idea the bunny girl is referenced later! Very nice. I still need to marathon your videos to get your timeline straight.
The bunny girl actually was a recent discovery for me as well. It’s crazy how much attention Nintendo pays to stuff like this… sometimes… I’m glad you enjoyed it, and feel free to hit me up any time you want to talk timeline!
The interesting thing about the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is not the Gnostic interpretation, but the fact that the more popular interpretation of that myth is that it was sacrilegious and wrong.
Honestly, as someone who isn’t religious myself, I agree. But still, I found this an interesting take from an explicitly Christian sect, since just about all Abrahamic religions have the same reading of Original Sin.
I was going to say that’s a little too close to P5, but while writing that I remembered that they went to the well of Greece twice (P3 and P5X), so it’s entirely plausible.
You are on to something here, but you need more evidence and correlation. I can see what you are getting at, but I need those dots lined. A Good argument is needed. One I would love to listen.
Its nice to hear such good theories about a game as old as mother 2 nowadays, and the theory itself seems to work well and explains why paula was often giygas' main target
This checks out, seeing as how Buzz Buzz is the best character in the series. I've also never considered why Giygas would be targeting Paula and never Ness by himself. So, essentially, the chosen four's essential places in the timeline: Ness: has a spiritual awakening that makes him realize they need to go back to Saturn Valley, even though Apple Kid could have just called him Paula: actually kills Giygas Jeff: unlocks a door Poo: bribes a museum worker
Honestly, as a fan of the Mother series too, I'd agree with your theories. Paula is clearly very important due to her ability being what's needed to defeat Giygas at the end of the game. What you said only shows how incredibly delicate the whole situation was and how smart Giygas is. In the end though, Giygas was never meant to take over Earth and so Fate did everything in its power to correct the timeline. I think that's an important aspect of this trilogy. Fate is real and you cannot fight it. No matter how powerful Giygas was it was nothing compared to Fate. Heck, now that I think about it, I have to wonder if maybe there were multiple attempts to change the timeline and the one portrayed in the game was simply the successful one.
Yeah. This universe definitely has some kind of deity with opinions on fucking with the time stream (iirc Porky says he was literally trapped by God in Mother 3). Fate is definitely a huge part of these games, especially 2 and 3. And we know there was more time travel stuff going on behind the scenes. Giygas was definitely in ancient Scaraba at some point, given what we saw in the pyramid. I’m sure he screwed with the time stream almost as much as Porky did before his final defeat. There’s so much to talk about with these games. I guess that’s what we get when dealing with a creator who’s a novelist first and a game dev second. I have a ton more videos I want to make on them, so hopefully you enjoy those just as much!
Never got into this series or its spinoffs, but due to how popular they are I have found it fun to hear about them. Rather fascinating to learn how the whole franchise got its start. Small critique, but around the 10:30 mark you overlap yourself for a few seconds.
That's one of the reasons I wanted to make this series; I'm sure there are plenty of people who have considered it but just haven't for various reasons (especially a series as punishing and occult as MegaTen). I'm glad that these videos speak to people who don't play them! I've actually considered doing "where to start" videos for some of these series, but I'm not sure if something like that would be too far from the main content of the channel or not. Maybe it'll happen someday, we'll see.
No worries. Most people don't notice the pun until it's pointed out to them. I've always been fond of this game. Dixie's my favorite Kong due to her float mechanic which is such a funny visual.
I see it as how Sonic, Shadow, and Silver all have the Echidna. Also, not sure if we have seen non sapient simians in the Mario world. What makes you say that I am curious? I mean even Ukkis are sapient.
I used the word "Simian" mostly for alliterative value, which I recognize probably reduced the benefit of my statement. Specifically, all Kongs are Great Apes (Gorillas, Orangutans, Chimpanzees, Baboons, etc.). That probably should've been my definition, especially with the fact that there are so few non-sapient species of animal in this universe.
Unrelated, but seeing as there is discussion about wanting to see Sally and the FFs back in canon, Sega Japan really needs to pull their heads out of their asses and realize people like the other Sonic continuities they didn't create. This is the same company that was trying real hard to appeal to every Sonic fan with all the stuff in Forces (the perfect game to bring the FFs back given the plot), yet they won't put in that kind of effort for the Western Sonic Cartoon/Archie Comics fanbase and try to re-reboot those characters.
I think they’re just gunshy on them after Chronicles. I don’t blame them, but I really wish they’d do more with the American (or even European) side of the 90s too.
I think there's a problem with this. If I am correct the STH1 Manual refers to Eggman looking for the Chaos Emeralds at South Island the mysterious Island that moves around in the ocean. If I am correct it's either stated or implied this is the first time Eggman has gone looking for them. You also forget the manual states Eggman only put animals in Badniks to mess with Sonic. This is because he doesn't need and animals powering Badniks, and it is probably not the best fuel source. Which is why not all his Badniks in every game has animals in them, said games I speak of are several modern games. You also have all the Boss Badniks the Robo Sonics not using animals to power them. Further implying they aren't a reliable source of energy. Also, Sonic Origins seems to imply that after STH1 the emeralds immediately reunited with 7 and made their way to the Island in STH2. So there's 3 ways I can interpret the GameGear game. The animals don't appear due to limitations or crunch. Eggman just used Badniks that weren't powered by animals. In addition to the 7th Emerald being in this game just unseen. Or this GameGear could just not be canon and Ian Flynn while stating it didn't check if it could fit.
The Japanese manuals for both Sonic 1 8- and 16-bit both mention Eggman coming using very similar language; nothing in the wording makes me think either sounds earlier than the other. He puts them in robots to get in Sonic's way, but nothing implies it's psychological warfare. Given the fact that the practice continues at least through the Adventure games (but likely at least through Heroes, since I imagine Omega has one as well), and even with robots that are never intended to interact with Sonic, I think he needed them for a long while to make the robots stronger in some way, but he was always testing tech to make it so he could use a more easily-accessible fuel source. Now, Ian has said that Sonic 1 was Sonic's first time meeting Eggman, but that also goes against the manual, which I take as a stronger source than a writer. I know they're trying to simplify the lore, but in doing so we lose a lot.
@@SpoilerGoblin "'Have you seen it, Sonic? This time is going to be different! Because this time, I've turned all the animals on the island into robots!' 'E...Everybody!?' 'All of them go about in accordance to my orders. In other words, Sonic, everyone on the island is your enemy! Gya- Ha ha ha ha ha ha ^cough^ ^ack^ ^ahem^.'" This is what makes me see that, though in hindsight I do see it being interpreted differently. Later on it's Chaos Drives. With the unification of the Sonic canon and a lore keeper being a thing, and Ian Flynn seeming to be in connect to the inside info they could have retconned it. Or alternatively it's Flynn's personal take. I will say with canon unification it also often is so willing to canonize things that don't work well together. Sonic Prime is my Prime example. Also I agree with your thought process, and would prefer that, but there is the previously stated things I mentioned. That's why there is some official stuff we have to acknowledge as the official canon, I'm okay with creating leeway for personal headcanons. For example the whole "only male hedgehogs can go Super, everyone else only gets super powers on this one island, and ignore Mecha Sonic, Metal Sonic, and the Gizoids." Personally I'm okay with rejecting that nonsense in favor of the head canons involving the emeralds original lore.
Interesting defense of Knuckles, we also can't forget about SA1. Also the manual says Eggman tricked Knuckles into thinking Sonic was trying to steal the Chaos Emeralds. Probably a whole Sonic is trying to takeover the world please help Knuckles. Not sure about timeline placement since Metal Sonic was left on Little Planet and retrieved I believe Mania. Some might say STH4 but that would make Eggman retrieving him twice and it's never been stated if STH4 is still canon or has been decanonized. Some people think Triple Trouble is not canon cause it's a GameGear game. But TailsTube and the Twitter Takeover acknowledged it was canon.
Yeah, with all the talk around Fang lately, it's been made very clear that it was his first introduction to the cast. Metal Sonic is tough. If you take Mania Adventures as canon (I know some people do, especially after IDW became official canon), then that can't lead into 4. I don't think it is though, and like Mania either led into 4 or there's even screwier stuff going on. I've been wondering for a long time if Generations split the timeline for classic Sonic/Eggman, but I think Ian's been against that. I'm not sure if that's an official stance or his personal take though.
@@SpoilerGoblin I recall in one of the TailsTube they were saying it's the same Sonic, though they address aus. Also, I recall there like text saying SuperStars takes place between Mania and SA1. I know there is supposed to be a battle where is whole body is replaced but it's still the og cpu, Knuckles Chaotix. Yeah I know it's canon, but I kinda don't like that. Yeah it's cool Tangle and Whisper are canon. But when x character shows up in x game with no background and info of "read issues 600-612 to understand, and read issues 300-400 to understand that, buy them now." Exaggerating if but I think you can get that. Also, it can severely limit story telling in the comics.
Not sure if that was a joke or if you do think Mario kills Toads in the original Mario Bros game. Asking to see what your response is. The manual of SMB3 even states that the new enemies of this game are new additions to the Turtle Tribe. Figure 8 Circuit shows those blocks are literally part of the environment. I think he could have possibly made it to Dinosaur Land on that ship and crashed in a similar way to what happened in Bowser's Fury. Probably correct with the magic thing, it's heavily implied Bowser creates his towers, castles, and fortresses with it. While first introduced in this game, the clown car shows up in the past if I am correct.
To my recollection, developer comments have made it clear that the blocks Mario destroys were never toads, so it was a joke. I was really just trying to put emphasis on a part of the lore of this game that not a lot of people actually know about. The clown car may show up in PiT or something, I don't remember clearly.
there was a leak that showed litten. no idea if its a starter or just a random pokemon photo, but if it is a starter, i hope the other two will be chikorita/seviper and piplup!!
