I have a question, I think the biblical evidence for CI definitely strong. I would go as far and say that there’s not one verse actually supporting ETC. What I’m confused about is the visions, out of body experiences or dreams many people have. I know most of them are just unbiblical and I forget about them. But there’s one that just absolutely STUCK with me and I can’t forget about it. How do you deal with that. Because everytime I start to be more confident in CI I remember this one vision (or whatever it was can’t remember) It was weirdly biblical but also unbiblical at the same time. I wish I could just forget about it.
@@MarkWCorbett1 No it wasn’t my vision. It was from a woman and she described how Jesus showed her the fate of the wicked. She said she was standing with Jesus above a fiery lake and he showed her how a baby was born, grew up and landed in this lake. With… graphic details. She also described how Jesus grieved about that and many more will land there.. I don’t know why this one is branded into my memory. Maybe the details and maybe because there is some biblical truth? I keep stumbling just because of this one vision.
I can see how something like that could stick in your mind. Here are a few thoughts: 1. At least the part of the vision that you shared does not necessarily contradict CI. The vision as you shared it does not say that once the person is in the lake they live in the lake forever. I do believe that tragically the unsaved will end up in the lake of fire. But they will not be tormented there, they will be burned up to ashes. I'll share a link to a 20 minute video specifically about the lake of fire at the end of this comment. 2. Even if other parts of the vision DID somehow indicate that people in the lake of fire will be tormented forever, that would not make it true. You don't even know this lady. She might have had a vision that was based partly on her own imagination of hell instead of being a completely true vision from God. There are many false visions, false dreams, and false teachings out there. So you are right to stick with the Bible! Here's the link to the video about the lake of fire: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Il3DYi7AqJI.htmlsi=V2sefANNjHJ3C3ul
@@MarkWCorbett1 I know you’re right, I should stick with the bible. Visions can be false and I don’t know her. It just struck me so deeply for some reason that I have a hard time forgetting it. It literally haunts me. Thank you for your thoughts, I‘ll really try to stick with the bible. There’s so much evidence, I almost feel stupid for being stuck on this one.
I am 7 months christian,but I ammanic/depressed soI am not always fullof joy,I have more joy when I read the Bible,pray or worship,can a christian be depressed?I have it from birth
Yes, Christians can be depressed. I have been depressed at times. It doesn't mean that you're not a good Christian. When you feel sad, stay close to Jesus. And when you are "manic" also stay close to Jesus. You mentioned some things that help with this: the Bible, prayer, and worship. Also, stay in fellowship in a good Christian church. May God bless you!
It's REALLY discouraging to see just how unintelligent so many in the Christian community are, INCLUDING the pastors who are SUPPOSED to be our teachers. It's like we don't even have a BASIC understand figurative speech (yet I notice not ONE pastor has ever preached we should literally pluck out our own eyes, when we lust). The Sun will burn for another 4 BILLION years, but would ANYONE in their right mind think that means it would take it 4 BILLION years to consume a person that got thrown into it? By that twisted logic, a match that might burn for 10 seconds would consume an entire person in 10 seconds, LOL. How long a fire lasts, or how long a worm lives, has NOTHING to do with how long it takes it to consume something. The idea that God would create immortal worms to consume our "bodies" for all eternity, is sick beyond belief. Not to mention self-contradictory. How can anything be consumed for eternity? Even if the worm ate ONE cell every year, we would still be consumed within 40 trillion years. A long time, to be sure, but not eternity. So NOW we have to come up with the idea that God will make the wickeds' bodies regenerate every so often, so the worm can keep feasting for eternity on them. Meanwhile, we can't seem to grasp the simple concept that to God ALONE belongs immortality, the wages of sin IS death, the soul that sins WILL die, God is able to DESTROY both Body AND Soul in the lake of fire. The wicked will: perish, be no more, be consumed, be burned up, vanish, die, cease to exist forever. All extremely plain, simple to understand English, that is stated OVER AND OVER again, but we have to assume they all not only aren't literal, they ALL mean the exact OPPOSITE of their actual definition.
Great video focusing on slander. I discovered your channel from your convincing annihilationism defense after just starting to research it the past three days. A very neat diligent channel.
One fact that is striking to me is that Jesus never combines the word "gehenna" with the expression "where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." If "gehenna" were a place of torment, it would have been the most natural thing in the world for Jesus to use "gehenna" and the imagery of weeping and gnashing of teeth together.
If people believe in annihilatiíon, then some will say, "Well, I will just live my life the way I want, and in the end, I'll just go to sleep (annihilation) and won't experience any punishment." But the Bible says, whoever's name is not found in the Book of Life is cast into the Lake of Fire and the smoke of their torment (basinismous which means torture) rises FOREVER and they have no rest day or night. Does that in anyway sound like annihilation? If the wicked are annihilated how can they have no rest day or night, when they no longer exist? About annihilation, if it was true, why doesn't God just say, "The wicked (who reject Christ) will be annihilated and cease to exist. Even the memory of who they were will cease." BUT NO! The Bible says, "Whosoever's name is not found in the Book of Life is cast into the Lake of Fire and the smoke of their torment rises FOREVER and they have no rest day or night. Notice it does NOT say the smoke of their annihilation rises forever... And once again, I have asked this question of many, many annihilationists and they NEVER have an answer for "the smoke of their torment rises forever, and they have NO REST DAY OR NIGHT. Once again, if they are annihilated and no longer exist, how can they have no rest day or night? They are gone. How in the world do they have no rest when THEY do not exist anymore?
Matthew 25:31-36 says, "Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed. . . And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.” Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence.
Why are you on every video defending ECT? Do you not care that by God's decree 90% of the population of sentient beings like you is going to hell? Only 1/3 of the world's population claim to be Christian and only about 1/3 of Christians are Born Again True Christians, so roughly 89 percent of the world's population will spend eternity in the torments of hell according to your worldview, simply for being born (thanks great grandpa Adam) and for holding the wrong religion. Not to mention there is no such thing as an ,, Age of Accountability'' you have to to be born again. The Bible never supports free will too and says God chooses individuals for Salvation. Romans 9 is clear as well as Jesus. So if you are delighting too much in God sending Anne frank and all the slaughtered murdered victims of kidnap and other grotesque stuff around the world to eternal torments I suggest you visit a therapist.
Eternal conscious torment believers are evidence of a darkened conscious. I find it strange as a believer in the salvation of all, that annihilationists often feel more comfortable around people who don't know what death is, than the universalists who do know what death is. (Not all, and even not all annihilationists know what death is.) I am definitely not a christian, but I believe in Jesus' death for our sins, burial, and resurrection... even though I have no interest in commandments and changing anything about myself. Kind of grew out of all that commandment keeping stuff, having no free will anyway. And never really put it into an equasion of anything more than a greater reward. Can I ask you, would you be glad if people were raised out of the second death in a future age? Would it make you happy if God reconcilated all?
I'm one of those people who believe that the Bible is God's Word and I can trust it completely. Because the second death will involve "eternal destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9) I do not believe anyone will be raised out of it. I trust that God has good reasons for that.
@@MarkWCorbett1 poor exegesis, even as you are someone who believes that aionios is to mean eternal in Jesus' day, that is eonian destruction at the return of Christ, they are NOT eternally destroyed there, as they are raised to die the second death around 1000 years later.
No where in the Old Testament are people destroyed or annihilated, only to be raised in n death, and then annihilated again. This concept is no where in the Old Testament, therefore using the Old Testament to posit annihilation is an illogical fallacy. Same for eternal damnation. These concepts are no where in the Old Testament.
It's true that the Old Testament does not lay out the details as clearly as the New Testament does. But the Old Testament does support annihilationism. It doesn't have to explicitly include resurrection to the day of judgment followed by annihilation in order to do this. Daniel 12:2 does point in this direction as it indicates that two groups of people will be raised but only one group will have eternal life. If the other group does not live forever, it seems reasonable to conclude that they will perish.
@@MarkWCorbett1 Thanks for your reply I can find prima facie support for annihilation, but it puts way too many scriptures in a theological pretzel. For example, Isaiah states God will wipe all tears from all faces and David states on repeat that God's mercy endures forever. Further, Isaiah states every knee will bow and tongue confess. This predetermined event is in 4 separate texts. So which is it? Ashes cannot confess, but then again neither can corpses. Yet, somehow, some way, everyone will make this claim. God swore this unto Himself. Luke states apokatastasis (restoration of all things) was reported by every prophet of old. Luke also states that all flesh shall see God's salvation. That's very specific. John the Baptist called Jesus the Lamb of God who comes to take away the sins of the world. John states he is the propitiation for our sins and not our only, but the whole world. Paul states, as in Adam all are dying, thus also in Christ shall all be made alive. So, can I find instances where the Bible appears to support annihilation? Sure. Same for eternal conscious torment, but these views require major scriptural gymnastics and cause major theological issues. For example, what branch of Judaism supports annihilation or eternal conscious torment today? If annihilation is a Jewish concept, why don't Jews follow this teaching? That is because Judaism (mostly) believes in Gehinnom. It is a place where no soul is ever lost to God. It's what Jesus called Gehenna. So did Jesus use this word in keeping with Judaism, or was Jesus using this word via Persian/Greek pagan influence? That's the ultimate question. What I've come to discover is that no where in the Old Testament was the Messiah listed as a partial Messiah. This is why they called Jesus Savior of the World instead of Savior of the Jews, or Savior of the Believer. 2 Corinthians 5:19 God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. It's cosmic, and again, very specific. Paul even goes so far as to say all of Israel will be saved. You mean those reprobate sinners who were idolaters, fornicators, thieves, etc.??? Yes. I agree with the author of the video that apollum means destroy (new wine in old wine skins). It also means lost or perish. Jesus used this word in back-to back-to back parables. The prodigal son is lost/perish/destroyed. The lost coin is lost/perish/destroyed. The sheep is lost/perish/destroyed. However, in all three parables, that which was lost/perish/destroyed is not the end result. The end result is about ultimate reconciliation. This is what I meant by putting so many scriptures in a theological bind. There are over 100 scriptures, both Old and new testament, that point to ultimate reconciliation. If I just had 1 Timothy 4:9-11 or 1 Timothy 2:3-6, there would be enough direct language to form support for ultimate reconciliation. I do see where God annihilates in eschatology. For sure. But we read where Jesus preached to those in the days of Noah and all who heard believed. We read where the daughters of Sodom will be restored. How? There are zero descendants. The Bible points to ultimate reconciliation on repeat. Skip to the last chapter in Revelation and you will see sinners outside the gate, but the gate is left open. How can annihilation be true if sinners are outside the gates AFTER the great white judgement and after Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire (second death)? This is why my views on eschatology come from 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul lays out the mystery of death.
Congratulations on the new position! Im a little sad that it will probably mean less videos (selfishly - because I really enjoy them) but im sure God will use you wonderfully in your new role.
*REVELATION IS UNRELIABLE* ♦According to Matthew, when Jesus returns He judges the nations and it's either enter into the Kingdom or into Hell. (Matt 25:31-41). According to Revelation judgement occurs 1,000 years later on. ♦Whoever believes in Jesus never dies (John 11:26) so a resurrection into eternal life for believers at the White Throne Judgment contradicts what Jesus taught since they never died. ♦The second coming of Jesus is unexpected but Revelation gives us plenty of detail where anyone can easily calculate that day once the 666 system is implemented. ♦ Eternal life for the righteous:: Righteous people who are alive upon Jesus' return enter eternal life in the Kingdom (Matt 25:34 & 46) but are later destroyed after 1,000 years when they are deceived by Satan when he is released after the 1,000 year reign (Rev 20:9) vs. Righteous people who are raised at the White Throne Judgement and whose names are found written in the book of life are granted eternal life. Thus, we have 2 very different outcomes for righteous people. ♦ _"The nations will walk by its (the Holy City's) light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it."_ (Rev 21:24) someplace in the new heaven or earth but the nations were already destroyed after they were gathered around the camp of the saints and the beloved city and fire came down from heaven and destroyed them. (Revelation 20:7-9) ♦How does a vast innumerable crowd of people (Rev 7:14) who washed their clothes in the blood of the lamb manage to enter the Kingdom when only a few find it (Matt 7:14) according to Jesus? ♦ *Free Gift vs do the commandments* _”The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.”_ (Revelation 22:17) vs _"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”_ (Revelation 22:14 KJV) ♦ *The Second Coming, who sees it* According to Revelation 1:7 _”Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth will wail because of Him. Yes! Amen!”_ vs Revelation 20:4-5 says the only ones in the first resurrection are martyrs. Therefore, it would be impossible for “those who pierced Him” to see His return since they don’t get resurrected until after the Millennial Kingdom period. ♦ *Gathered them for battle vs neither shall they learn war anymore* _"He shall judge between the nations, And rebuke many people; They shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, NEITHER SHALL THEY LEARN WAR ANYMORE.”_ (Isaiah 2:4) vs _”7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth- Gog and Magog- to ASSEMBLE THEM for BATTLE. Their number is like the sand of the seashore."_ (Revelation 20:7-8) ♦ *The burning grass* 1st angel _The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and ALL GREEN GRASS WAS BURNT UP._ (Revelation 8:7) vs 5th angel _And it was commanded them that THEY SHOULD NOT HURT THE GRASS OF THE EARTH, NEITHER ANY GREEN THING, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads._ (Revelation 9:4) The author got it wrong. The grass is already burned up. ♦ *The 12 tribes of Israel* The author of Revelation gets the names of the 12 tribes of Israel wrong (Revelation 7:4-8). Dan is omitted and replaced by Manasseh. Manasseh is one of two sons (Manasseh and Ephraim) of Joseph, not the son of Israel. ♦ *Temple or no temple?* Revelation (21:22) _And I saw NO TEMPLE in it, for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lamb are its temple._ This directly contradicts Ezekiel's account where in Ezekiel chs 40 - 47 great detail is given about the physical eternal temple. This temple is clearly not one that has been built before since Ezekiel describes it as having rivers flowing from it in chapter 47. The temple Ezekiel describes is the eternal temple of God set amongst man. _He said: “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelites FOREVER. The people of Israel will never again defile my holy name-neither they nor their kings-by their prostitution and the funeral offerings for their kings at their death._ (Ezekiel 43:7)
There are several scriptures to ponder that support your suggestion that being in hell is not eternal. Yes hell is eternally in existance but so many scriptures suggest death in hell. Guess we will find out soon enough but i would like to share the scriptures in case anyone wants to discuss its merits. James 1:15. sin brings forth death Deut 30:15 to reject God is death Romans 6:23. wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus Psalm 37:10 wicked shall not be (i.e., cease to exist) Matt 10:27-28. Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell Mal 4:1. day is coming which shall burn them up Rev 21:8. but the cowardly unbelieving abominable murderers, sex immoral, idolaters, sorcerers and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death Rev 20:9. fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them 2 Pet 3:10. both the earth and the works that are in it will burn up Isa 47:14 the fire shall burn them Mal 4:3 ...for they shall be ashes under your feet on the day that I do this. (i.e. Satan, Hitler, Stalin etc can never return) Rev 21:4......there shall be no more pain for the former things that have passed away Luke 17:28-30 ....it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even as will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. Comment: one theologian said that eternal fire such as described for Sodom and Gomorrah meant destroyed permanently and never rebuilt. The destruction is eternally permanent. So i guess this boils down to what do you think the definition of "death" is for the unbeliever? Scripture references death but does not say that the soul lives in hell for eternity. So maybe they are all put out of their misery and our memory?
Very good and comprehensive statement and even if the worms will not die does mean that they will never die, all that would prove is that the worms are eternal. The people that did not eternal they're not conscious and they're not being tormented they are being consumed. I still maintain that using the word hell as a translation of the Greek Geena is wrong. Gehenna is better. That's the problem when people see the word Hell they immediately have an image and their mind that's been indoctrinated in them since forever.
Hell may be a spiritual torment right now if someone is living without the father , and it could be a suffering cleansing of the soul after death before seeing the father ,
While we sometimes use the word "hell" in English to refer to any difficult, painful experience in our lives, that Bible does not use the word in that way. Hell is the place where, at the final judgment, God will destroy both the bodies and souls of the unsaved (see Matthew 10:28). No where does the Bible speak of souls being cleansed after death. The Bible does speak of cleansing now, in this life. We should focus on that cleansing.
THE DEAD ARE JUDGED 2 Timothy 4:1 I solemnly exhort you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the DEAD, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 1 Peter 4:5 but they will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the DEAD. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are DEAD, that though they are judged in the flesh as people, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. Acts 10:42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and to testify solemnly that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the DEAD. Revelation 11 18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the DEAD to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the earth.” Revelation 20 12 And I saw the DEAD, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the DEAD were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the DEAD who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the DEAD who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. DEAD PEOPLE ARE SENT TO LIFE BUT NOT SENT TO BE KILLED AT FINAL JUDGMENT. Daniel 12 2 “””And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some TO eternal life, and some TO shame and eternal contempt. - Some awake and must still go TO eternal life because they are still dead. - Others awake and are not killed because they are already dead and must go to shame and contempt. Matt 25:46 “””These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous INTO eternal life.””” - Sheep must still go INTO eternal life because they are still dead. - Goats are not killed because they are already dead and must go into eternal punishment. John 5 29 “””And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection OF life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection OF judgment.””” Those who are judged are dead people that’s why it says they “come forth UNTO a resurrection” They are dead which is why they go to a resurrection of life By contrast the others who go TO a resurrection of Judgment are not said to be put to death because they are already dead. Revelation 20 12 “””And I saw the DEAD, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the BOOK OF LIFE; and the DEAD were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the DEAD who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the DEAD who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE , he was thrown into the lake of fire.””” - They are dead People who are in the book of life still die so we know The book of life is not about staying alive but rather it says who will come to life. The great white throne judgement is of dead people that’s why the book of life is opened to see who will be made alive.
In fact, there are really only two verses in the whole Bible-two, in the WHOLE Bible-with any apparent support for eternal torment. And those are both in Revelation as part of the apocalyptic visions. This should make us cautious, especially in light of the dozens and dozens of texts offering apparent support for annihilationism. Anyway, good work, Mark, and God bless.
THE DEAD ARE JUDGED 2 Timothy 4:1 I solemnly exhort you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the DEAD, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 1 Peter 4:5 but they will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the DEAD. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are DEAD, that though they are judged in the flesh as people, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. Acts 10:42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and to testify solemnly that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the DEAD. Revelation 11 18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the DEAD to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the earth.” Revelation 20 12 And I saw the DEAD, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the DEAD were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the DEAD who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the DEAD who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. DEAD PEOPLE ARE SENT TO LIFE BUT NOT SENT TO BE KILLED AT FINAL JUDGMENT. Daniel 12 2 “””And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some TO eternal life, and some TO shame and eternal contempt. - Some awake and must still go TO eternal life because they are still dead. - Others awake and are not killed because they are already dead and must go to shame and contempt. Matt 25:46 “””These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous INTO eternal life.””” - Sheep must still go INTO eternal life because they are still dead. - Goats are not killed because they are already dead and must go into eternal punishment. John 5 29 “””And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection OF life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection OF judgment.””” Those who are judged are dead people that’s why it says they “come forth UNTO a resurrection” They are dead which is why they go to a resurrection of life By contrast the others who go TO a resurrection of Judgment are not said to be put to death because they are already dead. Revelation 20 12 “””And I saw the DEAD, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the BOOK OF LIFE; and the DEAD were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the DEAD who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the DEAD who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE , he was thrown into the lake of fire.””” - They are dead People who are in the book of life still die so we know The book of life is not about staying alive but rather it says who will come to life. The great white throne judgement is of dead people that’s why the book of life is opened to see who will be made alive.
Thanks for this, Mark, and for your graceful treatment of Dr Grudem and his work. But I have to say that his arguments against Conditional Immortality are very weak and seemingly forced - very much like other traditionalists I have read and heard. For me, it was not only the overwhelming strength of the positive biblical case for CI that convinced me it was true, but also the extreme weakness of the negative case made against it by the best traditionalist scholarship I could find.
I agree. People who have grown up with it often assume that the biblical case for eternal torment must be strong. But when carefully examined, it turns out to be surprisingly weak. And this is true even when we look at a defense of eternal torment by a gifted thinker and communicator like Dr. Grudem.
Regarding point 3: Many of the same people that make that claim will also tell people that if they are truly saved they won’t live in fear of hell. And if they do they very well may not be a Christian at all. As a matter of fact Luther said that you cannot truly and honestly keep the law (live righteously) out of fear of hell. To be fair he probably meant that you cannot if that is your only motive, but when faced with a possibility so heinous as eternal torture how can you be absolutely certain that is not your only and or main motivation? Other Conditionalists will disagree with me, but personally, I certainly do not want to be destroyed, but the idea of being kept alive forever being physically tortured is much worse. Whereas the possibility of living in perfection with Christ vs. the possibility of being destroyed is a much more, in my opinion, rational and understandable situation.
Yes, I agree that living forever in perfection with Christ vs. being completely and permanently destroyed are two options that make sense. And, of course, they are the two options that are taught repeatedly in the Bible. I also think that the fear of God basically means fearing His discipline, judgment, and punishment. The fear of God is a biblical and proper motivation for obedience. It is not the only motivation or even the highest motivation (that would be love for God), but it is still a right and helpful motivation. The same is true wrt obeying in order to gain eternal rewards. It is biblical and right, but should not be our only motive. So, I think we agree.
It all makes sense. Not for me but for God. He likes us to celebrate his attributes. He's Merciful and Loves everyone unconditionally Also he's the only way to Eternal life and why would you still have eternal life in hell getting physical torture. Also just being completely destroyed to not existing anymore would be torture in itself. I believe that's the real torture that goes on and on with no sleep forever or however you want to think about it. That's terrifying in itself and was scared of it ever since i was young.
Yes, Romans 2:7 is very helpful: ESV Romans 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; This verse shows that people do not all have immortality. It is something we seek and that is given to us by God. We know from the rest of Romans that this gift is given by grace through faith in Christ. I have a series of videos specifically on hell in the book of Romans, including this verse. Here is the relevant link: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-NXQNExsPCq4.html
After many years of praying and believing all of my (5) children have come back to the Lord🎉🎉. Never give up, God is working behind the scenes and they will return. The prayer of a righteous person availeth much. Blessings.
Could it be the mortal body that become the ashes, which is the dross, and the new glorious body will be with Christ after a total repentance. All versus have to make sense and can’t contradict each other so when Christ said every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Christ is Lord how do you reconcile that verse?
I also wanted to say that was a good presentation however, many times I struggled with that verse in the past, however, there are too many people that are making their decision for God based on wrong information and lies, and just because they haven’t come to Christ in this lifetime I think God has a way of saving them. like Jesus said to the rich young ruler for this is impossible for man, but for God all things are possible.
That's a good question. First, concerning it being only the mortal body that becomes ashes which is then replaced by a new glorious body, I don't think this is a good fit for what the Bible teaches. In Malachi 4, there are two groups of people. One is rejoicing while the other is turned to ashes: 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts. (Mal. 4:2-3 ESV) In 2 Peter 2:3-6, it speaks of their "destrucion" using the Greek word apoleia. That word was used by other ancient Greek authors to refer to the complete and permanent end of all parts of a person, including their soul. While here on earth, a person can be burned to ashes yet only their body is killed, Jesus indicates that both body and soul will be destroyed in hell: ESV Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Also, when the Bible speaks of us being refined by silver, that seems to apply to people who are already believers. I don't see that type of language used to refer to unbelievers being turned into believers. Concerning the passage about every knee bowing and every tongue confessing, there are two ways that this may fit with the unrighteous being annihilated. 1. Most likely, it is referring to a type of forced submission at the final judgment where the unsaved have no choice as they stand before the blazing glory of God but to bow and confess, even if they still do not love Him at all. 2. Another possibility is that the bowing and confessing refers to a time after the final judgment is complete. The knees and tongues of the unrighteous will have already been turned to ashes and will not exist as knees and tongues any more. Every knee and tongue in existence will then be joyfully blowing and confessing.
You’re getting closer to the truth! The truth is: God is the Saviour of ALL MANKIND, specially of believers- 1 Timothy 4:10 All that he desires he does - Psalms 108:12 God, who Wills that ALL BE SAVED- 1 Timothy 2:3-4 God is able in all things, none of his plans may be thwarted - Psalms Bruh HE IS GOD. HE CAN DO ANYTHING YOU CAN IMAGINE AND MORE
All will be saved. Want proof? 1corinthians 15:22-23 For as in Adam ALL are dying, likewise in Christ shall ALL be made alive. But to each in the own order. See that first "ALL"? yeah, that sets the precedence for the following "ALL". Do you believe that first "ALL" is indeed everyone? Well so is the next "ALL". No one is going to be tortured for all of eternity. God is not going to lose one of his creations. There is an order to things, and God has a reason for bringing this truth to the rest later. All of christendom teaches MANY lies. Like what death is, free will, eternal torture, and other lies.
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If someone can prove that John wrote the gospel of John, it doesn't prove that what John wrote is true. In the same manner, if you can prove that Homer wrote the Iliad and Odyssey, it doesn't mean that the content of the Iliad and Odyssey is true.
All by itself, the bare fact that John wrote John does not prove that content of the Gospel of John, including the resurrection of Jesus, is true. I agree with that. But it makes it more likely that it is true that Jesus rose from the dead. Having multiple, reliable eyewitnesses makes it much more likely to be true. And when combined with other evidence, I feel deeply confident that Jesus did rise from the dead and that Christianity is true.
@@MarkWCorbett1 Was each of the eyewitnesses interviewed and independently verified? How do you know they were reliable? Or is it merely heresay that there were so many eyewitnesses? I can say that 500 people saw a unicorn....but meanwhile. What other empirical extra biblical evidence is there for the resurrection of Jesus?
@@AnthonyRockliffe , my reply, pt 1 You asked: //Was each of the eyewitnesses interviewed and independently verified?// How do you think that applies to ancient history? Do you discount all of ancient history unless each witness to it was "interviewed and independently verified?"
@@AnthonyRockliffe , my reply, pt 2 Luke may very well have interviewed some of the eyewitnesses. It sounds like he probably did: CSB Luke 1:1 Many have undertaken to compile a narrative about the events that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as the original eyewitnesses and servants of the word handed them down to us. 3 It also seemed good to me, since I have carefully investigated everything from the very first, to write to you in an orderly sequence, most honorable Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things about which you have been instructed. Since Paul met with Cephas (Peter) and James, the Lord brother, he likely heard their accounts of seeing Jesus after His resurrection. 18 Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to get to know Cephas, and I stayed with him 15 days. 19 But I didn't see any of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother. So, in a way that is relevant to ancient sources, there probably was something like witnesses being interviewed and verified in the sense of being found credible.
@@AnthonyRockliffe , my reply pt 3 You wrote: //How do you know they were reliable?// By reliable I mean: 1. They were not likely deceived since groups of witnesses saw Jesus after His resurrection on several occassions. 2. They were not likely lying since their testimony put them in danger of persecution and suffering and even death.
@8:07 "...you (meaning believers) are going to be given the amazing gift by God's grace of eternal life...." That is to say, saved people will live forever. What about the unsaved? Will they live forever? For the answer to that see 2 Thess. 1: 9.
universal salvation is true. rev 20:15 And if [a]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire (second death). rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. rev 21:5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” ....... rev 21:25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; rev 22:2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve [a]kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires, take the water of life without cost. so its obvious that in the process of making all things new, even the unbelievers will be resurrected and they will enter when they wash their robes.
Whether the lake of fire is a place of everlasting torment or annihilation, we should still fear it. We should truly repent of all sins and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. He died to save us from our sins, and the details of His suffering during His earthly life are terrible to contemplate. He suffered so much while hanging on the cross. The physical pain from the scourging, or flogging, was bad and terrible enough, but worse than even the physical pain was the sense of being forsaken by God. It had to be worse than the physical pain because He cried out unto God, saying, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me"?
I fully agree that whichever view is correct (everlasting torment or annihilation) we should "truly repent of all sins an accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior." Amen!
@26:34 While I agree with Mark 99% of the time, he and I have agreed to disagree on this point. I contend that when a man is killed his soul is asleep, not awake (e.g. John 11: 11-14). That is not the same thing as saying that an aggressor killed a victim's soul because, in due time, that soul will be awakened. ✴ _…“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”_ (John 11: 11; NIV)
Mark, your command of the English language is good, your diction is good, and you communicate well. There is one curiosity; I notice that you roll your "r's." Does that suggest that English is your second language?
Grrrreat question 😃 2-part answer: I had a speech impediment as a child and speech therapy helped, but I still do not always pronounce normal English r's correctly. When we moved to Indonesia, I learned Indonesian. They rrrroll their r's. I was delighted to find that I could pronounce Indonesian r's better than many others who, like myself, grew up speaking English. While still in Indonesia, I slowly got into the habit or rrrroling r's even when speaking English. We lived there for 14 years and so the habit has stuck.
