Welcome to my attempt to pass on the long traditions of DMing and playing Dungeons & Dragons that I have learned, picked up and developed over the years. I am an avid gamer in many styles of games but have always loved role-playing games and D&D is the dearest in my heart and soul.
The name of this channel, "Elf Bait" comes from a running gag carried on since high school where my friends and I joked that our creative ideas were being stolen by tiny little elves that took our ideas to the powers that be. Over the decades this has become something of a badge of pride, knowing that we had ideas that were not only cool to us but deemed cool enough by professionals (not that we thing they really took our ideas) for commercial use.
I hope that those who watch this series will learn something from my humble, garage ramblings. I am not polished, professional or even high tech at all, but I am going to do my best, to give and honest bit of insight to the hobby I love.
I honestly don't see anything about this that says that. This giy could easily be a fan of any number of other modern RPGs. Even if he likes 5E, that's alright. I just disagree with his take on B2.
20:42 I feel that way with some game systems... Trying to learn the system from the book, seems like I am vastly underqualified to be understanding the blend of "Legalise" and "Quantum Physics" being explained in the book... ...but then you *PLAY* it, and suddenly its completely understandable! I think those times are a failure of the book team OVER-explaining. I personally feel that way towards FFG's Star Wars RPG...playing it is alot easier to learn then reading it!
Sorry, as someone who dislikes B2 as well (or, dislikes the internet's rather rose-tinted nostalgia turning it into "THE BEST EVER"!) I don't find as little in your video to convince me of its qualities as you don't find convincing arguments in the original article; mostly it boils down to "Nuh-uh, this is great and you are clueless." As a starting player I'd rather play B1, even if that ist just a simple dungeon crawl. It may have had its use at the time it was published, but frankly there isn't *any* encounter or situation in B2 memorable enough that I find worth using for my adventures ("Oooh, would you look at that - another 10 Skeletons with Protection from Turning amulets."). I'd say if you want emergent storytelling you could cobble together something way more interesting and exciting from, say, a good Dyson Logos map and a few random tables.
@@DerBomster I would argue your claim that it is nostalgia. As people are still playing it and loving it. Emergent storytelling wasn't even a part of the hobby when the module came out but there is enough there that, should you want it to have an emergent story, you could easily adapt the module to do so. I don't pretend to be able to change your mind (this is the internet) but I definitely do not agree with you and for good reasons beyond "nuh-uh".
@@elfbait3774 Yes but you don't give me any of those reasons, that's my problem. "People are still playing it.", doesn't really cut it. And the idea that it "teaches" anybody how to play is pretty much a constantly repeated mantra that the text does not really validate. Do you really think that anybody would regard this as anything but mediocre if it were released without the fanfare of it having flowed from the magical quill of sainted Gygax and it being the one that everybody had to learn the game with (mainly because it was there)?
@@DerBomster No, because I don't try to hold things of the past up to the standards of 50 years of development. My point wasn't that it is better than what we have we today but that it wasn't as bad as this author makes it out to be. If you ignore the context of my remarks, then sure they seem pretty shallow, but each of my points made against those made by the author. The fact that people still not only play but enjoy this module directly refutes his claims that it is "unplayable". New people come to this module and enjoy it. It's not just us old guys. I'm not a fan of Gygax and do not venerate him, so I make no assertion that the module is special because it came from him. I never said the module was the best thing there is or was, but it certainly is a far cry better than the author of the srticle made it out to be and that is what i was reacting to. If you don't like it, that's fine. I reall don't care, but the module still has a lot to offer those looking for a starter setting that can be easily be expanded on and I felt that it was worth making the video to point this out because new folks read these hi-vis articles and take them to heart and their are other opinions (much like you have yours) that I think folks should have access too.
I will say this about B2. It is definitely a product of its time. For better and for worse. It certainly does not have the polish and even completeness of products that came later (well before 5E) but to those who are looking for something that is defined just enough to provide a solid foundation for play, expansion, and the freedom to make the game your own, it is excellent. If you are looking for something that is complete right out of the box, it may not be your thing. I think the most outrageous claim, made in the original article, is that the module is unplayable. Of all the claims that is, perhaps, the one that wrinkled my nose the most, because it is so abasolutely, objectively wrong. People do still play and love this module and it's not just the olds heads that do.
Fun thing, if you go onto the list of best D&D modules on the same site, you find keep on the borderlands at rank 2. And yes it is written by the same author. Seemingly he likes what it represents and how you can play it at your own table, just not the way it was originally written.
B2 Keep on the Borderlands is one of the best D&D modules ever made. There's a reason it's held in such high regard in the hobby. Still fun to play to this day, and I plan to run it again soon...
This seems fair and if this was a few years ago I would agree. The problem is that the newer players think they have a right to dictate how everyone else plays and they invade groups to subvert them. You can be peaceful when you aren't being attack but we don't live in those times unfortunately. I'll give you an example, I used to work at a vegetarian restaurant as a server. A customer came in and asked if we serve meat and I said no and explainrd that this is a vegetarian restaurant. This apparently deeply upset him and he threw a tantrum as if I was trying to force him to vegetarian (I'm not vegetarian by the way) he could have just left but instead he decided to act like an asshole. Now while you might say that this lesson is for him unfortunately these people don't listen, so gatekeeping is good and healthy otherwise these people will never stop until they destroy your hobby. You want to be kind respectful to other but that must go both ways however in the meantime gatekeep and gatekeep hard. Again remember it is easy to be peaceful when you aren't getting attacked.
Well, first of all, it's not MY hobby. It's THE hobby. I'm not sure what's going on in your games but there is nobody who is going to make me play in ways that I don't want to. I'm honestly tired of the them and us converstion. I just don't get this whole "enemy at the gates" mentality that a lot of folks adopt. I guarantee you that the way each and every one of us plays and has played in the past was looked on as "wrong" or even "stupid" by some other group of players. Just play the games you want. Let others play the way they want. Picking your players for your games, isn't gatekeeping but trying to keep people out of the hobby as a whole because you don't agree with their version of fun, is bullshit.
@@elfbait3774 It is this type of mentality that allows the communist in and once they enter they destroy everything from within. Communists aren't people they are viruses intent on killing their host and moving onto another. They have done it to the video game industry and they are doing it to the film industry.
I mean he could be right it's unplayable today. But over the decades we've played it a time of two and had fun. No way it this the worst of the tsr adventure modules! ~Brian
I would say the fact that people continue to enjoy it to this day says it is still playable. Like a lot of modules you can do a lot with it to make it what you want as well.
@@elfbait3774 Played this online a couple years ago. With Not Homlet as the village below the keep. I stole the keep and not homlet and made a twin keep and sister village called not hokar. Down in the hool marshes of greyhawk. Ran a half dozen good looking games in the marshes online this year. There is alot of things you can do with Homlet and the keep. Thanks for posting this. and your comment. Subbed~Brian
@@brianinthepark5429 that is awesome. When we ran it back in the day, and if I were to run it again, we had Homlet be the last town before the frontier where the keep was perched.
i cant tell if this is click/engagement bait or if he is genuinely ret@rded egregiously illiterate language such as "on accident" has me suspecting the latter
My problem with old modules like B2 is that they seem too random and haphazard. Like, the wandering monster tables are ridiculous with no rhyme or reason at all, just a collection of "level appropriate" monsters like it was a videogame (probably where early videogames got the idea too). A lot of the actual encounters all seem like they are "if you fight here, you're going to get wiped" with ridiculous numbers of monsters (18 giant rats spring to mind), which I mean I am all for some encounters being the sort you need to be creative or parley, but when most encounters are "You enter a room with 12 goblins" with a typical 4-6 PC 1st level party, it's a little stupid because what, you're not expected to fight ANYTHING? Not to mention the absolute "lol gotcha" bullshit which is the Medusa in Room 64, where you literally cannot tell she's a medusa until you step inside to look at her.
I can see your point, but i think that ultimately comes down to philosphy of the game and gamers. D&D was as much a game as it was an experience, maybe even more so. Older modules tended to challenge the players as well as the characters. to this end, you were not expected to fight everything. The rules even support non-combat resolutions through the use of encounter reactions and morale rule. Even the experience system focuses on treasure recovered more than monsters killed. Again, not saying you are wrong, but it really comes down to expectations both for what we expect RPGs to be today and what they were intended to be in their early days.
Perhaps this article is based on online arguments. Lots of dialogue circles around gaming, history, RPGs, and medieval fighting generally use "common knowledge" a.k.a shit redditors say as a source rather than reading the material at hand. Notice that most of the criticisms are ... shall we say, generic.... so generic that it hurts one might say.
Great chat fellas. I've enjoyed this and working my way through some of the other content on the channel, particularly the "By the Sword" project. I've been shaping S&S/Pulp fantasy experiences in my communities as well so it's great to find like minded communities discussing these themes. As a new subscriber I was interested in joining your discord community, unfortunately the invite link provided has expired. If that is a space you maintain could I get or be directed to an updated invite? Thanks guys, glad to have found you.
9:50 I’ll probably catch heat here but here goes! What was written for 10 year olds back in 1979 is considered complex for 18-25 year olds today. The kids playing back in the late 70s - early 80s were some of the brightest in school (thus Nerds). We were veracious readers of fantasy and Sci Fi; members in math & computer clubs (when computers relied on code ie. DOS), etc. Quite honestly, we were not coddled in school and were generally SMARTER than the average student of today (even at nearly twice our age). The author of the article does not realize that when he calls something written for children “complex” that he is really exposing his own lack of complex thinking. Clearly part of the “Everyone Gets a Trophy” generation.
After 40 years of running games, mostly D&D, B2 is the adventure I’ve run the most frequently and for the greatest number of sessions (many return trips). This was a great video, I agree with you 100%.
I really need to stay up Sunday nights to catch these live...at 1-2am...geez. As apparently I'm the local "Eberron" expert, that couldn't be further from the idea and concepts and story in Eberron. Like, from when the setting is...set...it was only 6 years ago that the first Airships were made, the knowledge being stolen from the Dark Elf clans of Xen'drik...who themselves got it from the ruins of the ancient Giant Civilisation, from some...60,000 years ago? But, more to an example... Everyone probably knows what the Lightning Rail is in Eberron...yes? Thats those "hovering" Electricity Trains... Do you know what those are? ...the "Engine" is actually a containment for a Huge or Larger Air Elemental, whose been bound to a large Dragonshard, and there's a Dragonmarked "driver" with "Lightning Reins" basically whipping the Elemental to either *stop* or *go*. Now, I dont know about you...but the only difference between Eberron and Greyhawk...is that someone in Eberron discovered you could Bind and Elemental, instead of using Horses or such, to pull a carriage. Thats why all 'vehicles' in Eberron have the "Elemental" monikar in front of them. ...dont make me do an Eberron video to explain all this! :P
I am not sure exactly to what you referring but any references to Eberron were in passing and only meant to demonstrate a world where magic takes on a more established role closer to tech. I am no expert on Eberron - the setting never appealed to me much - so please do not take any comments I made as an attempt to adequately explain the settinv.
LOL... Nah, its all good, mate! Didn't mean to sound like I was on the offensive; its just amazing how often Iv heard the Setting get brought up, and then explained erroneously. I think only Dark Sun in modern times, compares to people explaining it in err. But yeah, Loved the chat! Im gonna need to stay up next week to catch it live to chat! :)
You know what weird about him saying it cant be played anymore? Keep on the Borderlands was the playtest module that 5E was written on so not only is he wrong but the modern game used B2 as its foundation to test its mechanics.
I always have seen B2 as a solid module and a great foundation. It is solid because you can pretty much always run it with a new group and it will always"work", I keep an extra copy in my DM briefcase (I know fancy) just in case. It is a good foundation because like most old modules you are are supposed to add to it and modify it to your needs, I have made many revisions that make my version unique and to my liking. A few of my favorite "mods" is to add B1 to the cave of the unknown but that is a fairly standard mod you can also add Mike's Dungeon from DrivethruRPG which is really good. I also have a custom version of the Minotaur cave, mine works completely differently from the original and is brutal. I also use Monster & Treasure Assortment to add more of both and make it more interesting, essentially it adds d100 tables per dungeon level of both monsters and magic items and really spices up the game. I think anyone who says its bad is either lazy or lacks imagination. However I don't even think its bad if you run it by the book.
B2 is even more fascinating today than it was back in the eighties. In the Caves of Chaos, each room description tells not only what the place looks like, not only what loot is waiting to be found, but it crucially also tells how many noncombatant women and children are in each room. These caves are on the edge of a war-torn region. The lower levels in particular are filthy, depressing, and occupied by families with children who certainly did not grow up living there. To any modern audience, it is absolutely clear from the text that this can only be a refugee camp, and the players have been sent by the "good guys" to slaughter them all. Whenever I run this module I always replace the kobolds in the first cave with a group of mixed humanoids whose minds have been totally destroyed by magical curses. The humanoids scream and sprint to attack everyone on sight. They clearly have no conscience and cannot be saved, so the PCs can feel fine about killing them and looting those rooms. I love doing this because it delays the obvious "are we the baddies" moment until well after most players have already become complicit in this grotesque and obvious war crime. When that moment comes, they face a choice: play it the way most players do, as an "evil" campaign where they kill everyone including the children so they can get loot and level up, or try to figure out who is ultimately behind this arrangement and stop them. Makes a great story every time.
Nah, the blog post is 100% correct - Keep on the Borderlands is an incredibly stupid module. Huge hosts of monsters live in close proximity to each other without killing each other off? Stupid. Those same groups of monsters would ignore the sounds of battle when players are killing off others groups next door? Stupid. Intelligent monsters don’t post guards at the entrance of their own caves? Stupid. Into the Unknown was a better introductory product, and a better module in every way.
@@user-yl9pc5dz7c Then you should know from the text of the module that a. the monsters have guards at their caves (kobolds even have a rear guard in the forest), b. the monsters are all at odds with each other, with orcs aligned with gnolls, goblins and hobs together, and bugbears picking off everyone, c. if your DM didn't have the monsters gang up on the PCs, your DM sucked, not the module.
I remember seeing a copy of this years ago in a game store in Yonkers, NY (not far from Bronxville, actually). Very surprised to hear that it had nationwide distribution.
This is pretty clearly an early game that's only interesting for nostalgic or historic reasons. It explains a lot. Hindsight is 20/20. It seems like they lifted a lot of ideas from other systems, that had already come out, although one can never be 100% sure. It's interesting that the system is already 'broken' mathmatically, as far as the engine goes and that they never show up again in gaming history. I wonder what would have happened if you had bought a different game instead? Nostalgia is powerful. : @ )
