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This crash was horrible it makes you cry I put my self in the shoes of the people who were in the plane I bet you they were screaming knowing they were going to crash and die .............. so sad
ATR 72 is documented for serious icing problems. That is why it fly's only in certain climates/economies. The checklist for icing says.. Boots on, AP off, leave altitude IMMEDIATLEY (yes in caps)
What a fantastic explanation, thanks. From what I have heard, the pilot was well experienced in flying this a/c so why would he not be able to correct the a/c. Surely, during winter there will always be icing problems so why would this a/c be difficult to fly through the conditions, which, from what I understand, the boots to remove the icing on the plane does not seem to be as good as the anti-icing on most other a/c? Despite how great the a/c is for airlines, if it is not made to get though these types of icing conditions with a well experienced pilot, then something is wrong! From the number of ATR a/c involved in accidents, I won't be flying on any of them! Take care and stay safe!
Should you really make a 180 degree turn if the wings might be contaminated by ice? Sounds like a good way to destabilize and possibly flip the plane over?
The video of the accident the weather data and the flight radar data helps us to see and understand what condition the aircraft was in just prior to impact. The investigation will confirm whether we are correct. But we are quite certain what happened here. Our hearts go out to those who have lost their loved ones in ATRs. 532 victims have been killed in this aircraft type so far.
Under ice, ATR-72 is very suscetible to wing stall and to tail stall. The measures to recover from wing stall are oposites to recover from tail stall. But the checklist appears to deal with the wing stall only.
American Eagle 4184 on 10/31/94; all 68 killed near Chicago. Trans Asia 791 on 12/21/02 a cargo flight in Taiwan; both pilots killed. Aero Caribbean 883 on 11/04/2010; all 68 killed in Cuba. Utair 120 on 4/02/12 in Russia ; 33 of 43 killed. Iran Aseman Airlines 3704 on 2/18/18; all 66 killed in Iran. Voepass Linhas Aéreas 2283 on 8/09/24; all 62 killed in Brazil. All of these from icing situations. I don't know why anyone would trust this plane with their lives. The icing vulnerabilities have been known since its first date of manufacture. Its operating altitude is exactly where icing conditions are prevalent. And as demonstrated in this most recent crash; it doesn't need to be snowing when you board the plane for this to be a danger. It can be a pleasant 60° and at 15k to 17k altitudes you can be in dire straits!
Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful comment. Yes, I agree. It seems there is so much data to support the grounding of this aircraft or in the interim, at least ban it from flying in known icing conditions. My heart goes out to the victims of all ATR accidents.. All 536 of those who lost their lives.
8 cancer doctors on board in route to spill the beans about all the new terbo cancers are being caused by the safe and effective . all were threatened and they said . if they kill us they kill us . and on their way there it happened .
AI RAPAZIADA, TEM UM VIDEO NO RU-vid FEITO POR UM CANAL DE TELEVISÃO BRASILEIRO , NO QUAL UM PILOTO E ESPECIALISTA AUSTRICO , MOSTRA EM UM SIMULADOR DO ATR, AS "PROVAVEIS PISTAS" INDICATIVOS DOQUE PODE TER OCASIONADO O ACIDENTE. EU, COMO BRASILEIRO ACONSELHO MEUS AMIGOS A NÃO PEGAR VOO, DEVIDO A MANUTENÇÃO DE AERONAVES E A CAPACIDADE TECNICA DO PILOTO. QUE DIOS LOS BENDIGA A TODOS. SEGUE O VIDEO SEGUE O VIDEO ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JpaDvMvjTQo.html
Performing a stall-spin recovery in the ATR-72 aircraft would be challenging and sporty for anyone on a VFR (Visual Conditions ) day. In IFR (Instrumnt Conditions) the recovery would be even more challenging especially when the aerodynamics and the weight/ CG of the aircraft are differnet or compromised would be even more difficult. Getting dizzy is a possibility for sure, and the startle factor could have been a huge detriment to any recovery in time. The entire event took only a few minutes to develop and 90 seconds to bring the plane to the ground. My heart goes out to everyone who has perished on an ATR-72....all 536 victims.
Were any of the pilots diversity hires? Did the airline have a vax mandate and had to replace good pilots who knew the jab was a scam with fools? Just curious.
Now this comment is NOT nice, helpful. This is not a place to vent. Please keep all comments positive and in search of the TRUTH that brought down an aircraft full of human beings.
@@aircombatusa I value your criticism but a lot of crash investigations report that the pilots were overworked or new to the career. Everyone is too afraid to talk about DEI, ESG and political corruption being part of the reason for these events. Looking forward to reading the final investigative report and your follow up video on it.
Thursday an another ATR (from the very same company that crashed) made an emergecy landing here in Brazil, in a flight predicted to be between Rio Verde/GO and Guarulhos/SP. The landing was in Uberlândia - Minas Gerais. Cheers from Brazil! Just subscribed.
I flew professionally for 50 plus years. Severe icing is no joke. I recall an incident of un-forecast severe icing. over 2 inches of clear ice , in less than a minute, on the ice probe on the D-8-300 I was operating. It was on the approach into Castlegar BC. We aborted the approach at 12K feet and executed the missed approach. With max continuous power we were able to get about 800 feet per minute. We got on top, out of icing at 15,000, were not able to make 16,000, the IVSI was decreasing and we needed speed. We levelled off and maintained max power and we accelerated. A sort time later it was time to enter a slow decent, to increase airspeed. The noise of the ice shedding off the props was incredible, the aircraft took some impact damage. I looked out the window at the wing, clear ice patches all over visible top surface, we knew we were flying with unknown aerodynamic properties. The ice to some degree sublimated, on decent into CYVR, we hit warm air the wing ice shedded. All of the ice build up occurred with deice and antiice on. The aircraft was grounded in CYVR, taken to the hanger and deiced and inspected. Clear ice was seen all over the fuselage, inside the engine cowl there was a few inches of ice on the bottom of the intakes. Had this ice slab shed in one piece, there was a potential for an engine failure on either engine or both. Severe clear ice is not an experience you want. Avoid it at all cost. This disaster is tragic. My condolences to the families of the crew and passengers.
Icing occurs anywhere on Earth at any latitude. The danger is real when the temperature reaches near 0C or 32F with moisture present. The heavier the water content, the faster the accumulation. The most dangerous is super cooled water droplets that instantly freeze on contact with an aircraft. If the temperature on the ground is 30C (86F) so you would only need to climb to 10,000 feet (3C/1000) to reach the freezing level where ice will be present in visible moisture in the clouds or in falling precipitation.
It was an unfortunate sequence of events, now with some information coming out about important indicators in the aircraft not working properly. No amount of experience could have helped if they couldn't input basic information such as aircraft weight. But let's wait for the preliminary report that should come out sometime next month.
I agree that the black boxes, that are really orange, the FDR and CVR should really shed some light on this accident, if they are willing to share it, even if its not favorable to the manufacturer. We must never allow accidents like this to happen. The ATR has killed 532 people in 66 accidents. How many more do we need to make a decision to fix the plane or stop flying it in known icing?
Yes, winter in the southern hemisphere is just as dangerous as in the northern hemisphere. Air France was a different type of problem. If anyoine would like to know my thoughts on Air France 447, I would be willing to make another video on it. Thank you for your comment.
A flat spin implies that the aircraft is tail heavy and the tail plane is completely stalled thus pitch control is no longer possible. In normal flight, a tail-heavy plane requires lift from the tail plane to maintain controlled flight. A lifting tail should operate at lower co-efficient of lift than the wings so that the wing will stall first when forward speeds are too low and the tail is still lifting to push the nose down to regain speed. However, if the de-icing boots on the tail plane not working properly allowing more ice accumulation on the tail than on the wings, such that the tail section becomes heavier due to ice accumulation and making the tail plane stalls before the wings, then a flat spin situation will occur. This aircraft is known to have suffered from a tail-strike accident not too long before, requiring repair. Perhaps the tail-strike accident to the rear of the aircraft may have done some thing to impair the de-icing system of the tail plane, allowing more ice accumulation there to make the tail heavier and the tail plane more prone to stalling? Please note that it is impossible to put a transport plane into a flat spin when loaded normally, because the tail plane will always provide lift even when the wings have stalled in order to push the nose down. Thus, there is NO WAY that the flight sim would re-enact this type of flat spin. It is just not possible. Only when the tail becomes heavier due to ice accumulation, and the ice roughens the tail surface making it more prone to stalling that a flat spin would occur.
Excellent points. Many more valid possibilities. The possible damage to the tail that may have affected the tail plane de-icing system is interesting along with allowing the tail to get much heavier and hinder ability to get the nose back down. Thank you so much for your insight into this tragedy.
It’s not too early to start thinking about how to avoid this situation from occurring again. We all saw the video, which allows us to begin working through the possible scenarios that could bring an ATR or any aircraft down. We must wait for all evidence and facts to determine the actual cause, but sometimes the data, never sees the light of day.
Yes, excellent points. A frozen elevator/horizontal stabilizer would have made the situation much worse. However, the flightradar24 data did show a huge loss in altitude, ie stick pusher event, full forward stick, followed by a huge pull up, ie pilots grabbing the yokes and pulling all the way aft, would have resulted in the secondary stall, extremely low ground and airspeed, extremely high AOA, the throttles lefts at MCT would have flattened the spin and the torque would have made the aircraft spin to the left even with the rudder neutral. This seems to be highly likely to be the reason for the accident. My heart goes out to the victims and their families. This should have never happened. Let’s pray the authorities find the cause and decide to issue an emergency AD to either fix, or prohibit ATR operation into known moderate/severe icing or ground the ATR-72 as a result of this accident.
We don’t know the answer yet, but it’s feasible. Especially if the pitot froze and visibility was obscured from the windscreen. Could be a Silvia’s situation to af447.
@@mervinpowell6284 All possible complications that could have made things worse. Still a heads down recovery, looking only at instruments could have been possible if the nose was lowered to relax the AOA and allow the aircraft to accelerate, and retarding the thrust levers for a few seconds to help lower the nose. This may have been recoverable if proper spin recovery techniques had been employed early and at or about 5,000 feet. Below 5,000’ AGL, the outcome was grave. May those who passed away in this accident be remembered and honored by us not allowing this to happen again.
New sub here. This was a great breakdown. I was able to keep up with everything you explained. If you care too, maybe you could break down the China Airlines 611 crash?
Thank you for your subscription. I’ll take a look and see if there is anything I may be able to add. Thanks for the suggestion and your support of the channel.
I saw another channel that said once the plane was in a spin the centrifugal force and the weight of the engines out on the wings, recovery was impossible.
Thank you for the comment. Yes, centrifugal force with weight on the wings, such as engines is a huge factor. Art Scholl was killed filming the original TopGun from heavy film cameras mounted on his Pitts I-Struts. He was unable to recover from the intentional flat spin he was performing likely due to the significant gyroscopic effect caused from those mounded cameras helping to keep the biplane in the flat spin. A very good point, sir. But assuming that the ATRs 2 engines were running at or near full throttle, I still feel that a recovery may have been possible from the flat spin, by closing the throttles, using differential power, or possibly reverse on one engine. We may never know the answer to this question without the black box data that seems to be mysteriously missing/suppressed/unreadable.
A NASA X-31 in the 90s crashed due to the icing over of the air sensor During preflight the pitot tube heater was not turned on . It also crashed in flat spin after the pilot could not recover, pilot survived.
Dog may have a strange psychological issue that is unrelated to any particular flat spins causes or coriolis effect, but I am no dog training specialist or psychologist. Thanks for the comment.
As a mechanical engineering student, it was way easier to calculate torpedo courses in UBOAT, then trying to learn how to dogfight in war thunder, but this helps a lot gonna check out more.
@@gergocsanadi4770 calm down man... I was just saying that it s nearly impossible to do dogfight on an arcade game where everybody goes full afterburner and full cannon all the time...
I learned how to disable a spin by applying opposite rudder: correct "PITCH---YAW---ROLL" push the "STICK FORWARD---JAM OPPOSITE RUDDER---LEVEL THE WINGS"
Yes, Sir! You are well on your way to surviving your next spin and having a long and prosperous aviation career!. Always fly with a trained acro instructor while you learn spins in an aerobatic aircraft. Be safe out there and enjoy the journey.
If you are hearing the sound of a helicopter, it’s because there seems to have been one hovering overhead near one of the eyewitnesses videos. I heard them both screaming together, but I could be mistaken. I’m still waiting to see the data from the black boxes that are mysteriously not being made available to the public. That’s not a good sign.
The flat spin indicates to me either the aircraft CG was beyond the aft limit or the max thrust kept the nose up. If the elevator had frozen over, the stick pusher is effectively useless. Also if the elevator had frozen over, the ATR severe icing checklist calls for max thrust well before the autopilot is disengaged and flight control feel/check is performed which leads me to believe that this caused the stall.
We are not definitively determining the cause of the accident. We are having an educated discussion on the possible causes and consequences of what we all saw of the accident as it happened. It’s the first time anything like this has happened to a commercial aircraft on camera by eye witnesses. The video shows almost every thing we need to know. We are also very curious to know why the black box data has not been released. It’s very clear what data inputs will either verify my suspicions or disprove my claims. If anyone has the data, please let me know what was found.
Hello everybody, I'm from Brazil, in the city of São Paulo very close to the city of Vinhedo where this tragedy happened. At the moment that the news started coming out, we just didn't believe that it was really happening, it was really terrific!
I am so sorry for your loss and that your country has experienced such a horrible tragedy. May the investigation help the world to understand what happened so that it may never happen again. 💔🙏
Thank you for your comment. I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion on spins. All of this spin recovery works great on an aerobatic aircraft without ICE on it affectiing the aerodynamics, gross weight, CG, and possibly flight control function. Add all of this to the startle factor in the clouds and you can appreciate what the flight crew must have had to deal with in a very short 90 seconds to get it worked out before impact. This would have been a very difficult situation to get out of once the aircraft accumulated enough ice to stall. My prayers go out to everyone who has ever been the victim or passenger of an ATR-72 which according to Wikipedia has had 66 accidents, 40 hull losses, resulting in 532 fatalities.
From Wikipedia: “The ATR 72 has been involved in 66 aviation accidents and incidents,[76] including 40 hull losses,[77] resulting in 532 fatalities. “ Seems to me every turbo prop pilot needs to also be an aerobatics export like Michael!
@@mervinpowell6284 I agree, a little knowledge and practical experience in the aerobatic realm would make aviation a bit safer when the automation fails and we must “do some of that pilot $h!@“ to save the aircraft and the passengers from being involved in another tragic accident.
Thank you so much. I appreciate your support and subscribing. I hope I can help inspire the next generation of pilots to be safe and confident aviators.
Perhaps adding power on ATR at stall is because the pulling force of the props is above the C of G due to high wings so at the end it helps pushing the nose down. Unlike on a lower wing jet aircraft where it might rather raise the nose that you don't want just at stall speed. It's just an idea...
