A healthy body is one of the most valuable things in life. A fit body is the best place for an educated mind to live. Instruction and workouts in skiing are based on the same principle: controlled, conscious movement, proper posture, attention control, and precise coordination. By developing these skills, you can improve your efficiency and quality of life. There is no better place to work them out than in sports.
Great video! (and great conversation below). Thanks. Put *very* simply, it seems like inclination = the angle between the edge and the center of mass. That's it. Nominally, with no angulation, this angle will be the same as the edge angle. However through angulation you can tweak (generally increase) edge angle. Angulation also sets you up to have more forgiving control over edge angle where banking (inclination == edge angle, no angulation), well you'd better get that angle perfect because you have little ability to tweak in the turn otherwise. So here is a question: Why is banking sometimes superior to angulation in a turn?? My guess is that you can apply more force to the edge, meaning you are going faster and are less likely to slip, without angulation. Also, it isn't clear to me why you say it is impossible to have a turn with no inclination? For a turn, you need pressure and edge angle. That's it, for a carved turn. I can see that for high edge angles this is true, but very strictly, couldn't I maintain my center of mass directly over my skis, but just through angulation have a non-zero edge angle with 0 degrees inclination, which would result in a zero-inclination turn?? With skidding this is even easier and you can make turns of any radius. Ok, now that I think about it, if you really had 0 degrees inclination, you could start the turn but you would immediately fall over to the outside. So yes you need at least enough inclination to avoid falling over.
Your question gave me some ideas. I am working on the next videos, and honestly, I was stuck in deciding how to split the topics and what to include in the videos. Thanks! One topic can be about the difference between inclination and banking. Angulation is for tweaking the turn. No tweaking is needed when the inclination, the postures, and everything else are nearly perfect. So, yes, in some circumstances, a posture without angulation can be more powerful than with angulation. Regarding why we need at least a light inclination, your final conclusion is right: you need some inclination not to fall over the skis. The amount of inclination is related to the forces. Skidding reduces the forces from the turn but doesn't completely eliminate them, so we need less inclination. But there is no turn without lateral forces. In the presence of lateral forces, you need the corresponding inclination to be stable. You're right.
Thank you! Actually, for us, it was a nice training day up there on the glacier :) We are permanently working on new content. I hope we can publish some new videos this month.
Let me help you by quoting what you missed: Regarding the first half of the turn: "We don't cover it because the angulation is ready here." (Here = Apex) Apex is in the middle of the turn. Regarding the video, angulation is in a definite form at the apex. "It starts somewhere in the initiation phase, but not right at the beginning." Initiation is the first half of the turn. Regarding the video, angulation is built up in the first half of the turn, so we do have angulation at first part. Nobody said that angulation is only at the end of the turn; quite the opposite: "The deconstruction of the angulation happens together with the deconstruction of the turn." So, at the end of the turn, there is no angulation (the classic one) because it is already vanished.
Great analysis and images, thx for sharing! As a student racer, one question I have: when making the offensive angulation movement is the weight distribution 50/50 or more like 80/20 toward the new outside ski?
Honestly, I don't have enough attentional resources to observe the load distribution during the transition in this case. I use this offensive angulation with a cross-under transition, and the main point for me is to drive the skis actively and prepare a proper set-up for an early edge grip. But I think weight distribution isn't really crucial near the transition. Actually, during the transition, skis are practically unloaded because the load originates from the turn, and there is no turn during the transition. However, the transition is the preparation phase for receiving the pressure near the apex. When we miss it here, it will be late in the initiation. Regarding this, I try to catch the first aggressive edge grip with the new inside ski with a stable pinky toe side ankle and shin, and based on this, receive the pressure a bit later with the outside ski.
@@OzoneSkiing I recognize how you describe entering the initiation first on inside ski then receive pressure on the outside ski. Race coaches often point out that we must maintain snow contact through the transition and not let the ski's fly. This requires a little pressure during transition, especially forward pressure. My mental image coming out of transition into initiation is like a long jumper pushing from the new outside ski, while driving the inside knee high, carrying the momentum . This would be more active than just receiving the pressure on the new outside ski
I like your approach to how you work out your skiing. :) As you described, there can be a lot of similarities with other sports movements. That's why I wrote an article about running on our website; we can bring over many details from track and field to skiing. I can imagine turning scenarios or skiing styles (thinking about different racers and their different styles) where this movement structure is effective. I think that being versatile is a big advantage, so knowing many kinds of transitions is valuable. www.ozone-skiing.com/en/post/the-fundamentals-of-running-and-walking-gait-cycles-active-contact-posterior-chain
Aha: I lead my angulation with my shoulders as you demonstrate @2:42. I think I do this especially when I don't feel my outside edge engaging and want to magically create more edge angle through angulation, rather than waiting for more inclination to bring it to me. Inevitably, my CoM then moves off my outside foot, I try to compensate by reaching outwards with my outside arm, etc ... not pretty. This and the prior Inclination & Angulation videos have been very helpful, thanks!
This is a very nice and useful video. However I prefer to talk about only 2 phases and 2 endpoints. The shaping, inward phase and the transition, outward phase or edge change, so the 2 endpoints are the midpoint of the edge change and the apex point. I think that apex is a real point, but the midpoint of the edge change is more like a turn-phase, because it takes some time, while you execute a cross over movement of your body over your skis and you make early edgings of your skis with your ankles simultaneously. But if you think about this, as the point of the turn when your skis have zero edge angles, you can consider it as a point. Apex cannot be a phase, in my eyes, because many properties turn to the opposite at this point. This is the point of the highest edge angles, highest ski-pressures, highest inclination, highest turning speed of the skis and of the body, the lowest separation and lowest ski-lead. Remember also, that you can have more turn-phases if your turns are not optimal carving turns.
Thank you, I think wa are on the same side :) I tried to keep it simple, that's why I called all four as phases, but it is true, at least one of them is just a point. I wrote an article, maybe there is it a bit cleaner. :) www.ozone-skiing.com/en/post/alpine-skiing-phases-of-the-turn
The two key points of the turn are the transition and the apex. Apex is often forgotten in skiing, but it is the first thing discussed primarily in driver training, ski racing, and any racing line topics. We can not miss the apex; without it, there is no chance to understand a turn. There are two connection phases between the two key points of a turn, so we have four phases. :)
@@OzoneSkiing - I'm doing a video on this subject ... and I go the opposite direction. Two phases. Top half, bottom half. Apex in the middle. Will be interesting to compare the two approaches when I'm done.
Maybe the two concepts are not very far from each other. I look forward to it! I look at the physical environment, not the skiing techniques. Skiing techniques change, some genius can always invent something new. In almost four decades, I have taught many techniques, some of which are better to forget. Physics always remains the same, and skiing is a creative game with physics.
@@OzoneSkiing - absolutely. I love your videos. This is not intended as critique, just curious. I also think my video will be targeting a lower level of skier, and so it will attempt to make the mental part of this a little simpler. For the rest of us, lets dig deep into the technical stuff!! Keep the great videos coming.
Hasznos anyag, kösz! Nagyon érthetően -és főként helyesen - mondod el a lényeget. Másik hozzászólóval ellentétben: ennyi magyarázat nem sok, hanem ennyi kell, ha valaki meg akarja érteni. A video maga pedig nagyon profi, igényes munka.
Yes, more detail please. With regard to angulation created at the hip sockets, greater angles can be made if the hips are countered slightly toward the outside of the turn. The upper torso need not counter so creating a torsional force to keep pressure on the ski tip edge. Which brings up rotational movements generally of the body needed to create a downward pressure on the ski tip edges in high inclination turns.
This is a superb explanation of inclination and angulation, the combination of the two. I need to listen several times to this information. Thank you so much!
Thank you! You are right; it takes time to listen. Editing content such as this is always a tough decision. If I cut it short, I will be superficial and disrespectful with the content. If you need a written version of the topic, there is also an article: www.ozone-skiing.com/en/post/inclination-vs-angulation
I think this video shows a high quality with impressive analysis of ski technique. I have only two remarks. The explanations are a little unnecessarily complicated and my opinion is that angulation with the bending of the spine to the side of the body is not a mistake, but a useful tool.
Thank you, János; I appreciate it! Regarding the variations of angulation, I could have gone into more detail. :) In my opinion, In terms of angulation, we are not of the same opinion. Your comment points out an interesting topic. It would be useful to find a platform for an open conversation, and it would be instructive to discuss this.
@@OzoneSkiing My basic starting point is that all body movements that can improve a ski turn should be considered useful and that is the opposite of mistakes. Banking, which means not doing any angulation at all, can very well be considered a mistake, because the upper body ends up mostly over the inside ski and it counteracts the healthy optimal distribution of ski pressures between the skis. Angulation by bending the spine to the side has a positive effect on the distribution of ski pressures, it can also give higher edge angles and greater inclination. I can't see any decisive disadvantages. The whole body ends up closer to the center point of the turn, if there are edge angles and inclination during the shaping phase of the turn. In addition, I believe that the reduction in stability via the core musculature is only moderate.
@@inquistive These are two different terms, but they are connected to each other. Inclination means that your body-mass is at the side of your skis and it is necessary in order to make a ski-turn because you must have edged skis in all ski-turns. Edged skis are mandatory in all ski-turns. Banking means that you have no angulation during your ski-turn, so the midline between your legs and the line of your spine is the same line. In angulation it is an angle in this line. This angle can be at the level of your hip joints or in your waist. Angulation can improv your ski-turns but it is not mandatory.
Kedves János! Több hozzászólásban is írod, hogy a derékban történő szögelés, kihajolás nem hiba, hanem "megoldás". Sajnos ezt tévesen tudod, mert a hajolás, a test derékban megtörése az bizony hiba. Egyrész nem a legegészségesebb, másrészt az ilyen hajolásra törekvés akadályozza is a hatékony kanyarodást. A derékban hajló amatőr síelők 99%-a az élezésből veszít a kanyarban, azokkal szemben, akik csípőben oldják meg a "szögelést", pontosabban nem is törekszenek erre, de a jó kanyarképzés miatt valamennyire automatikusan kialakul náluk.
This is a revelatory explanation of A-frames and “falling” onto the inside knee. I absolutely thought it was the inside ski riding out under the body that caused the weight to fall on it! Pointing out the “A-frame” is really an “X” when you include the femur’s position … 🤯 Very excited to practice awareness of this.
This "keep inside ski tip on snow" while lifting it is precisely what PMTS' Phantom Move prescribes, but doesn't explain in terms of the biomechanics. I only just got this to work recently after deep thought and very slow practice on bunny slopes. Doing it successfully also puts your stance leg (the one left on the snow) onto the balls of that foot, ready for edge angles to develop. Brilliant explanation. I've just tried the "Lego brick" exercise in barefeet and look forward to testing it out on the slopes this week!
I totally disagree. Pelvic bone tilt (more commonly called hip levling) is more far important than hip flexion. Pelvic bone tilt is mandatory to aggressively tilt your feet/skis. This is what enable WC skiers to initiate turns so quickly. Watch this... ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-DG_Dg7_NIt0.html I am pretty sure Mikaela's tech coach 2015-2017 knew what he was doing when he had Mikaela practice exaggerating this motion! Pelvic bone tilt is there with all elite skiers, though it is sometimes hard to see because of their high edge angles. You THINK they are square, but they are not even close. Their inside hip is hiked so much that the pelvic bone tilt is 20-30 degrees beyond square to outside ski force vector. You should maximize your pelvic bone tilt/ leveling before you use hip flexion. Some skiers have pelvic bones that just naturally level, enabling them to start turns easily from the feet. Ski coaches just assume these skiers are simply more talented. But most skiers do not, and they have to work actively on the pelvic bone tilt to enable their feet to tilt and start the turn. A common failing of coaches is to fail to notice which skiers naturally have a pelvic bone that does not want to tilt, and thus limits their ability to tip the feet to start the turn. This is why Brandon had Mikaela do this drill....it activates that complimentary motion of hip leveling. Try starting a turn decisively on SG skis without aggressive hip hiking.... you can't.
@@madispalm1517for me, it was a night and day difference in my skiing, due to an injury. I tore a bunch of muscles in my lower back decades ago, and my pelvic bone tilt is harder in one direction due to scar tissue limiting range of motion/tilt. The result was that I had a really hard time initiating right turns (left ski) on 30m GS skis. This took me a YEAR + to figure out. When I discussed this problem with coaches, they told me...."just do what you are doing for the left turn on the right turn". Yeah...like I did not think of that. They were utterly useless...and we are talking about former USST coaches. I even ASKED them about hip hiking, and they dismissed it....telling me some vague nonsense about getting stacked over my outside ski. The problem was my biomechanics were resulting in my pelvic bone not wanting to hike. We are talking about a 5 degree difference. No coach can see that in your pelvic bone. All it took was my actively thinking about tilting the pelvic bone...like a switch, in transition, and then concentrating on it to make my turn initiation come to life. After I decided that my pelvic bone tilt was the problem, and I practiced it for WEEKS, the coaches are suddenly saying I am skiing so much better and how all I needed to do was "do it the same". That have no clue that I literally spent 20 hours of skiing concentrating on pelvic bone tilting (which they dismissed)...and started doing exercises to activate my gluteus medius muscles. Even today it seems that ski coaches are sometimes so clueless as to what really works.
We are not far from each other! First, it is easier to agree when we use the same terms for the same movements. (Unfortunately, using figures or videos in a comment is impossible. It could be easier to explain all the movements with some drawings. I may prepare a video when I have time.) Hip hike - and hip drop - is when one side of the pelvis is higher or lower than the other side. ""Pelvic tilt" means something else - APT or PPT). Usually, jip hike refers to a one-leg stance situation. In this case, we have to use the same muscles of a hip hike to prevent a hip drop: most of all, the gluteus medius. To understand the movement of a bone, we must take into consideration the origin of the movement. For example, extension or flexion in the hip joint can result in an up or down movement of the femur - if the pelvis is fixed. But when the femur is fixed, the pelvis tilts forward or back. The pelvis has three joints: the hips connect the lower extremity and the pelvis. The upper joint is the complex of the discs of the lumbar spine. The movements can be in the hip joints, or the spine can bend. In this video of Michaela Schiffrin, all the explanation drawings show that the pelvis and the shoulders are parallel, the spine is perpendicular to them and fixed, the upper body tries to stay straight and upright. This is what "squared" means. A golden rule of sports is that the spine must be fixed near the anatomical curvature under load - this is the case at the apex of a turn. That's why it is an essential point in all drawings in the video. She does a lot of gym training where they never bend the spine under load. So we can exlude the solution of the lateral lumbar spine bend. In skiing, "hip hike" does not mean lifting one side of the pelvis by bending the lumbar spine. It is a very unhealthy and unstable movement. Never try to do it when you want to stay healthy. Otherwise - do it freely, but do not complain when it hurts when you get older.! :D So, how can we view an angulation in the body between the upper and the lower body? There are two options: 1. The angulation is between the pelvis and the upper body by a bend in the spine. In this case, the pelvis and shoulder axes aren't parallel. Never do it... Dangerous, unhealthy, ineffective. 2. The angulation is in the hip joint, between the pelvis and the lower extremity. In this case, the pelvis and shoulder axes stay parallel. Squared. This is what the drawings on the video look like. It combines adduction, rotation, and hip extension of the outside hip regarding the femur. Abduction, rotation, and flexion of the inside hip. Completely different than bending the spine. In the video, we can read at 0:06: "Sekeletal alignment (stacked) pre roll-up." This is what "square" means: "square" upper body is because the pelvis and the shoulders are in a square geometry, as all drawings in this video suggest. "Leveling" is the same: it means that the skier doesn't let drop the inside hip. But it is not made by a lumbar spine bend; instead, it is an outside glutes activity in the hip joint and, simultaneously, an inside hip flexors activity - in the hip joint. This is what is said in the video. Look at the stance and how Michaela starts the drills: the first muscular activity of her is a definite hip flection of her right femur. She levels her pelvis, not letting her hip drop with a right hip flection and a left gluteus medius extension. But she does not raise her inside hip. Never. Thinking that hip hiking is an inside hip lift by banding the spine is a big mistake. "Hip hike" is not a hip raise with a lumbar spine bend. It combines the inside hip flection, outside hip extension, and adduction. The result is a pelvis shift to the center of the turn. What I describe in the video is the base of this movement in a stance. In the video, I am not speaking about the turn. Simple, because it is about the fundamentals in the stance. Turns come later :) So there is zero contradiction between Michale"s video and what I said in this one. :)
@@OzoneSkiing ". But she does not raise her inside hip. Never." But she does. It is right there to see. It is a huge and deliberate motion. How can you say that when it happens plain as day.
@@OzoneSkiing you know...I started in business as an Engineer. I long since moved to the technical sales area in my industry, but I am still an Engineer at heart. I work with and sell to large Engineering firms that design huge infrastructure projects. In the world of complex ideas and principles, we have an axiom relating to expertise. And that is if you can not explain something clearly and succinctly, with a minimum of words, to a non expert in the topic, then you yourself probably do not have true expertise. When I see you have to write that much to explain a single aspect biomechanical kinematics, it makes me seriously doubt if you know what you are talking about.
Yes totally agree thanks! Very good video. I ski on one leg a few turns left and right turns linked. I know i need to do as you say to improve my technique.
Thank you! :) Skiing is amazing; it is so versatile and can never be boring, but on the other hand, it can never be perfect. There is always room for improvement. I'm working on the third part, but before that, another video about the background of the movements will be released.
Jó lett, nagyon hasznos. Megerősítettél néhány dologban, amiket már nagyon régóta megfigyeltem és úgy is tanítom. És igyekszem én is úgy csinálni, már amikor sikerül... :-)
Köszi a feltöltést, nagyon hasznos videókat osztassz meg. Sielős vakációnk előtt Tőled nagyon sokat tanúltunk. Igazából a frissen ratrakolt még nem buckás pályákon Nekem működik is az élváltás, és nagyon élvezem a kanyarokat, de délutánra, vagy ha egész nap havazik, komoly buckák alakulnak ki a pályán. Innentől kezdve gondot okoz a sielés. Szeretném, ha készítenél olyan videót is amiben erre a problémára is fel tudnánk készülni. Azt hiszem, hogy nem egyedül vagyok ezzel a problémával. Nagyon köszi a munkádat, csak így tovább :)
My wife is a retired PTA and is constantly after me to correct my posture. A very good explanation with some corrective actions to implement I haven't heard before. I plan to get a 10 inch box to set my laptop on as a start. Thanks
Thank you, we appreciate your feedback! Proper posture is the first on the task list! It is a habit, and it works as habits usually work. Sometimes, we only recognize if it exists once we experience some pain.
Harald Harb talks about the inside ski and tipping it in turns. It's one of the things I have been working on over the last few years too improve my carving. Good videos and information. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Gb7QttJDgrs.html
Szerintem hideg havon a wax különbségét csak méréssel tudnánk megállapítani. Friss havon inkább, ha csak fel volt kenve a wax, simán előfordulhat. A melegwax friss havon ki szokott tartani egész nap.
