Taking my lead from mystical philosophy, I would suggest that the reason we do not (usually) experience God is not because he is noumenal, but rather, it is us, human beings, that are noumenal. In other words, our lack of experience of God is due to the fact that we fail to understand what WE really are.
makes sense...our senses does limit what we can know out there...I've often thought of my brain/mind as simply a cookie cutter...as far as I know, the ultimate noumenal reality is just one singular amorphous goo...IDK.
I'm a thinker out of the box and à truth teller. I'm not accepted in this society. When they say that we have the right to freedom of expression, what they forgot to say is that you have the right to freedom of expression as long as you adopt the tribal mentality of your group. We're not living in tribes anymore. People really have the right to say anything on their mind as long as they do it with respect. Sometimes I speak with people and I see that they're uncomfortable of what I am saying to them. They look at other people in the same room that we are to see what they're thinking of what I'm saying to them. This is the tribal mentality. When you can't think by yourself and look at other people to see what they're thinking you are seeking a tribalmentality. We are all unique. Stop the tribal mentality and think for yourself.
PROOF FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD: You walk into a room to get a drink of water, as you approach the fountain you pass a pool table and notice the balls are scattered around the table’s surface. You get the drink. As you turn to leave you notice the balls are now in the familiar racked triangular pattern, in order, and facing forward. What do you think? “Why did the balls move themselves like this? No. Pool balls are inert, lifeless, they cannot think or move themselves. For an inert element to move, a force external to it must exert itself against it to cause it to move. For this external force to move inert elements into patterns it must know how to 'manipulate', and know what a pattern is. There would have to be a consciousness (thought process) in the external force that manipulated the pool balls into this pattern, a thinking power moved them. This is the foundational question to our existence: How can inert lifeless matter demonstrate intentional goal oriented behavior randomly? The answer is obviously it cannot. The inert lifeless atom is the building block of the physical universe that is moving in patterns and systems that are not just predictable and repeating (planetary orbits), but remain within the narrow parameters of this one universal order model. This requires there to be an external force manipulating these atoms, one that possesses a consciousness. A thinking power is controlling the atoms of the universe-God. Because this power is coming from a place we cannot measure or see, and because it must exist for the atoms to be behaving in this way, we have to now conclude that there is an invisible or spiritual dimension to the reality of our existence. It is not inaccurate to refer to this dimension as spiritual due to the fact that it possesses a consciousness, and the ability to project power. John 4:24: "God is a spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.". Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning God created heaven and the earth." Hebrews 11:3: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God so that things which are seen are not made of things that do appear." The table is made of something that does not appear so it is made of something invisible, or too small to see. If invisible the table would be invisible, it is not. We know it is too small to see-atoms. The Bible has been teaching us about atoms for 2000 years, they are too small to appear. Genesis 2:7: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (atoms),,and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (spirit), and man became a living soul.” This is why a person can think (consciousness) within their inert atom-made body, and have the ability to manipulate inert elements into patterns (build things). The spirit moves the body like the hand moves the glove. The Spirit of Life of God is within us. Colossians 1:27,28 "The whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of Glory." The body isn’t thinking. 1 Corinthians 3:16: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the spirit of God dwelleth in you?". Ecclesiastes 3:21: “Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upwards, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" Genesis: 6:17 "And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die." James 2:26: "For the body without the spirit is dead." The creatures of the world also have a spirit so they can think from within their inert atom-made bodies and manipulate inert elements into patterns (dens, nests). The spirit moves the body like the hand moves the glove. The whole of life on this planet, in the physical realm, is expressed in physical forms made of inert atoms that cannot think for themselves so they must be inhabited by a spirit of life to be active (alive). The fact that they 'grow' shows the hand of God at work. Growing is increasing mass and duplicating physical form and internal processes, not possible for inert lifeless material to do. Even plants have circulatory systems within them, movements that they, being composed by inert atoms, cannot muster themselves. Their roots bring up water from the soil, and their leaves produce carbohydrates through photosynthesis, using the sun for their sustenance. This entire ecosystem is a demonstration of God's omniscient power in action, as is the whole universe. Ephesians 4:6: "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." But the time will come when the old earth will be destroyed to make way for the new, it is called the "Day of the Lord."
Many people have said the same in comments, but I really do think that that analogies to human affairs really breaks down when we are talking about omni-potent beings. Parents taking children to painful but necessary medical intervention is a classic one, and also why Jesus had to be sacrificed for our sins, comparing it to our justice system where someone had to be punished for their crimes. An all powerful God is not bound to the same limitations, "tough but necessary" decisions is only necessary if it is the only way to achieve a greater good, but an omnipotent God has no limitations how to reach a certain goal, and can be reached instantaneously and effortlessly no matter what. Although very small children feel that their parents are very powerful and wise, the difference between being very powerful and all powerful cannot be understated.
Kant's dodge. The popular claim is that God interacts with the material world and should therefore be detectable, just as radio waves, gamma radiation, and gravity waves are detectable. That burden of proof is not met. Kant would have the same thing to say about the noumenal dragon in my garage.
No. There are no gods. I'm not going to be nice about this. I'm not going to give you an easy out. Untill you can PROVE that a god exists, then it doesn't.
Sorry but this is nonsense, you can invent a word for things that can’t be directly experienced but you can’t then use that as a proof of god. We know radio waves exist because we can experience them via a radio. But there is no way anyone has ever experienced god in any way analogous to a radio or not. God was invented as an easy way to explain the unexplainable and also keep the rabble under control by fearmongering. It obsolete science and should be put in the same box as Zeus Apollo Anubis and not taken seriously except when halfwit fundamentalists use it to cause damage
If there WAS a god out there, that you can't see or interact with, nobody can prove exists, and you have no awareness that it even has any effect on the natural world, then it's a useless concept and you should go on with your life because it does not affect you whatsoever. Maybe some god created everything and then dissolved into the universe to give it life and so it's technically dead, doesn't matter when people live their everyday life without a god.
I think it's pretty easy to figure out if the Christian or Muslim god exist. Pray, sincerely believe in them and then ask, and you will discover that there's nothing in the room with you except you talking to yourself. Now if you keep trying and start imagining a voice replying back to you, and you keep doing this, you will eventually kneel down to pray and you will hear the voice automatically without even trying, then you will have convinced yourself that God is real. This is literally all that is happening. No Christian or no Muslim is talking to God. You are talking to your ego. It only gives you answers that you already know but you're keeping from yourself in order to let your ego give you the answer, thus tricking yourself into believing you are getting the answer from the divine. There is no divine answer, there's no healing properties, it's all YOU. Now apply this same concept to a general God, not attached to any religion. The exact same thing will happen. Now one last thing you can try and to will see that I am correct and there is no God and none of the religions are true. Pray to Satan, offer him your soul through contract like I did and you will see that no devil appears, no contract will be signed, because there is no devil either. It's all just a bunch of stories people made up. None of this stuff is real besides the names of some places. It is questionable whether or not any people written about in the Bible even existed. There's zero proof they existed.
This argument sounds clever but one needs to step back and think about it. What he seems to be saying is that anything that can't be perceived may exist in some way. So if no one has actually seen or smelt the Easter Bunny, then it is possible that the Easter Bunny exists. This doesn't sound like an enormously helpful argument. Or, less facetiously, any God that can't be perceived may exist. So all kinds of different Gods could exist according to this argument. Secondly, why are we assuming that (the Christian) God is noumenal? If one reads the Old Testament, God interacts with many characters like Adam and Eve, Moses, Abraham, etc. Wasn't he supposed to have helped the Israelites to defeat their foes? Don't we pray to God because we hope he will have some impact on people's lives? What about angels? Noumenal or phenomenol?
The 5 senses do not determine everything we experience, and certainly not how we experience God. So the phenomenal/noumenal distinction, as it applies to the external senses, is irrelevant as to whether or not we can know God.
It's a decent analogy. Even if we have never build a technology capable of demonstrating the existence of radio waves they would still have always existed in the noumenal world. The same could be truth for a God.
@@freedomextremist7921 But no technology would demonstrate the truth of God. The distinction is not between the phenomenal and the noumenal, rather between the physical (e.g. radio waves) and the metaphysical e.g. God.
@@nicolassbrown9881 You're embedding in your statements a lot of assumptions which are not necessarily true. If you're a pantheist God is literally part of every single material experience that you have in your life. Also, why do you assume there can't be any interactions between the physical and the metaphysical world? If you're a theist aren't prayers, revelations and miracles examples of interactions between the physical and the metaphysical worlds?
God does exist. Undoubtedly; under the roof of every believer’s skull where he resides and should be protected by all means because once he ascends from these extremely narrow surroundings he’s bound to dissolve in thin air :).
The fact that god demands the same prerequisites as every scammer on the planet: ‘believe in me’, ‘have faith in me’ points in the direction of man made god(s).
Anytime I talk about this with someone I always say imagine you could reduce yourself down to the tiniest particle and still possess consciousness. Imagine how different everything would appear. It would be alien, but just as real as before you were shrunk. As Huxley mused, "knowledge is a function of being." This same Kantian idea exists in some of the eastern philosophies, and it was Schopenhauer who noticed these similarities, and gave us his views on it, as well. Very interesting stuff. Thanks
Could not a numinal God manifest certain phenomenal properties to us - as indeed a tree or another person does? We can never know them “as they are in themselves” ie their numinal reality, but we can still interact with them on a phenomenal level…
Kant is an exhausting waste of time. Just study Buddhism. It makes much more sense using language at a 3rd grade reading level. Kant has sentences with dozens of words and numerous compound phrases. If he was such a genius, why Kant he write in simple terms.
Emmanuel pussy foot Kant was a blow hard, who said nothing worth listening to..He's just another pretentious asshole asking stupid questions while holding his chin..
The lover ceases to be human; he becomes transcendent, and possessed of supernatural powers. Love is the true alchemy that turns ordinary mortals into divine beings.
What a load of horsecrap. So God is phenomenal (as many claim, Bible, etc) but also noumenal? What a pathetic and useless claim. Keep in mind most are making very very specific claims about God.
The picture of the tree is nothing but ones and zeros, just as the tree is nothing but atoms electrons, neutrons , which are ultimately just waves physical objects are ultimately non physical objects, if you look close enough, you see right through it, it’s all a paradox, try to enjoy life
Our perspective, or should I say, most people's perspective of God is biased by the ideas and man made holy books. "God" or the architect of this universe/illusion/simulation is something we will never be able to comprehend. Not even the "gods" in this creation/matrix will ever understand that force. We're all slaves under an unimaginable force, it's his-story. Peace and love human fellows, enjoy the ride ✌️ ❤
This is a really just John Hick's application of Kantian transcendentalism to the Divine. Except the Kant asserts the necessary existence of the noumenal as a preseupposition for the possibility of experience, much as Hick affirms the necessary existence of the Divine as a presupposition for the very possiiblity of Divine experience.
The comedy here happens when a mortal with a finite brain tries to “define” an omnipresent being and/or its intentions… Maybe that’s where Dante got his title?
