Interesting to see someone covering these in 2023. All of it was on point but some things need emphasising or expanding upon. The simplicity of the original circuit that Vern designed was quite frankly genius. There would be very few I expect in this day and age that could replicate it. Vern utilised aspects of the components of the time to make the circuit self oscillate at a suitable frequency to achieve some degree of depth of penetration. Depth of penetration is deeper for lower frequencies and less for higher frequencies. With modern components of the same designation (2n2222 transistor as an example) and same design specification don't work in the circuit because vern utilised aspects of the components that were outside of the design parameters for the components core functionality. For depth of penetration the optimum frequency is 100kHz and that's very close to what Vern achieved with his circuit. It's not so high that the penetration is blocked by skin effect (a type of signal push back) and it's not so low as to penetrate too deeply into the lead core where it's pointless to be measuring anyway. The lack of modern component equivalents is why there's no real "like for like" successes when it comes to remaking them them in the modern era and the only successful replacements available today utilise different techniques of forced fixed frequency rather than self oscillating to maintain the penetration and reduce skin effect. There are alternatives out there for those that search for them. There's my ones and there's another one that's made into a small toolbox that I cannot find a link to but it is out there.
I wonder if that’s a good sales point once you use the barrel and it’s no good you don’t get or money back or replacement yep scratch one customer off the books.
Yup... you are reading it right... was real twizzler to me... talked to the Walther's rep at the NRA show back at that time and he just shrugged his shoulders... I was on my own...
I wish I had found this video when it was made. Perhaps you would like my videos on reloading 22lr and my swaging process of making 22lr. Also, the hardness can softer when using powder coating. I swage AFTER powder coating. This make a far superior bullet.
Hans... Thanks for your comment. I did check out your video and looks like you doing some nice work. What I glean from your work is you're trying to make a superior long-range 22 LR. With the current offerings from the Lapua/SK/Eley that's gonna to be a tall order and I wish you the best. Check out the offerings of the reloading kit for 22 LR from Cutting Edge Bullets. They have a table of load data they did with different powders, which based on my work, is going to be the biggest challenge. Also, I did a video on 22 LR relative burn rates which you might find useful. ...Don
Norm.... I didn't do any concentricity testing. The profiling is done in a die which contacts the drive bands and there wasn't squishing of the nose of the bullet to get near these drive bands.
When I received mine new in the box, the retaining cap wasn’t screwed down firmly to the indenter housing so I tightened it up. Is there a way I can easily test the calibration
Thanks for your comment… Option A, contact your supplier or LEE and swap it out under warranty… Option B, work with somebody else that has one and do some same sample testing… Option C, obtain some high purity lead, usually 99.995% is available, test and if that measures between 4.5 and 5 BHN you're probably good to go!
I can't understand why people change the barrels on their CZ 457s. Mine comes second only to my Anschütz 64. Five rounds SK Rifle Match at 50mtr leaves one hole. If there is more than one hole, it's my fault.
I wouldn't speak for everyone doing rimfire but, because it's a relatively low-cost platform they like trying new things and, of course, the pursuit of ultimate performance with the mystical combination of platform and ammo.We have three CZ457s all put together for a specific purposes. We wanted the Lothar Walther because of the profile and longer than the traditional 16" threaded so we could experiment with muzzle device like tuners and bloop tubes. The second has an IBI 22" with their "Olympic Contour" which has a Shnuble nose for studying barrel harmonics. The last has the stock factory 24.5" threaded that came on the first Precision Varmint Trainer with the Manner stock. Performance? From 50 out to 200+ yards, on any given day, I wouldn't want to live on the difference between any of these. ...Don
Hi Jimmy..... You don't provide much information here so, I'll assume you are using 1911 full frame, this is what my video deals with, you are using standard factory loads and the spring you have now isn't working for you anymore. Go to the Wolff website and follow their recommendation for the caliber you are using. If you are reloading, still start there and go up of down a little to dial in your best performance. Remember, these spring fatigue over time with use so, you should replace as needed. ...Don
I have read that calibers such as 454Casull use dies that size the brass down farther than normal and do not expand it is much before bullet seating so the elasticity of the brass will have greater friction grab on the bullet. I wonder if this could be applied to .38 special to achieve tighter grip on the bullet and promote greater efficiency of the powder burn.
My experience bears this out, Don, particularly with the softer lead used in swaged bullets. I used bullets cast from softer alloys. Bullet bases become deformed (singnificantly undersized) during the seating process. They don't shoot as well, and leading, even with very light loads, is apparent. I believe your canneluring method here is the appropriate solution to building consistent pressure without deforming bullets in a deleterious way.
Hi Dino… As always, thank you for your viewership and thoughtful questions. Unfortunately, in this case this unit is on loan from the owner, and we need to return it directly as I believe he plans to sell it. Hopefully the buyer will invest in getting some performance correlations. Cheers… Don
Nice presentation. It is a useful technique in the inspection of balls for bearings down to 1/4" and up. On those machines, three concurrent measurements are run. Eddy Current, vibration, and optical surface laser. Sometimes, a part will pass for optical surface reflection quality and vibration, yet fail eddy current. When sectioned, the flaws are revealed. Looking forward to the next video.
I'm glad I found this video, I Was thinking of purchasing one of their barrels for a CZ I have. I won’t now after hearing about the unacceptable customer service from Lothar Walther.
Sucks you had a bad experience w/ your LW barrel, my experience turned out much different. I purchased a LW barrel for my CZ457 and it had extractions issues, I notified LW and they had me return it immediately for replacement. They sent me a second barrel, this one seemed to extract ok but the accuracy wasn’t up to mine or LW’s expectations so they told me to send it back. Between the 2nd and 3rd barrels they began using polygonal rifling vs lands and grooves and told me I would be getting one of the first barrels. My third barrel is a shooter, on a low wind day I can commonly shoot sub-moa at 100 yards with SK Biathlon Sport, prone off a bipod. Honestly I hate Midway and will never buy anything from them again, I had the same experience you had w/ a nice Sightron optic, I’m a never Midway guy. Anyway, glad you got all the bugs worked out.
Polygonal huh?? I wondered about, with regards to why more .22lr rifle Mfg.'s didn't do that and hammer forge barrels, which is why I love my CZ. I'm a HK pistol fanboy mostly because of the polygonal rifling they use and how all my pistols seem to not care what they eat as a steady diet, as everything shoots well in them from factory ammo to my handloads.
is that a common problems to all 22lr ammo or only some brands？ I tested wolf match extra by hand it seems no problem before fired The barrel not installed yet
Siyu... Thank you for your viewership and comment. The problem we had with the LW barrel IS NOT common and giving Walther's reputation and quality we were surprised we came across this. All 22 LR bullet profiles and rifle chambers, as we discussed in this video, have small differences. So, this is one of the reasons, once you do your build, you want to try different ammunition to see what works best. For match quality ammo whatever bullet profiles you consider, generally, small amount of engraving on the bullet is desired so it doesn't "jump" into the rifling. This is shown to give the best results. ....Don
Roberto... Thank you for your comment and your viewership. I hope I understood and extended your excellent research a little bit! I hope all my viewers look up your other papers… Don
Oh man Im glad I landed here! Thank you algorithm, but mostly thank you Mr Lutter and Pounder Labs. This is the kind of stuff I ve been looking for when loading my Service Match 38s.
Thanks for your viewership and your question. I can't say to a certainty that LW doesn't fabricate their barrels to a specific manufacturer, but I tend to think they don't. We've seen different chambers favor different bullet profiles for 22 LRs so our best recommendation is to try a couple of different manufacturer's types to find the best chamber fitment and look at various lots to get the best standard deviations for velocities and hits on targets.
Gary… Thank you for your question. Yes, Tuner work is in plan. That was the original idea behind getting the 20-inch LW barrel. We are finishing two videos about the fundamentals and practical methods for using Rimfire Tuners. We’ll be focusing first on the CZ 457 with the 24-inch barrel and Harrell’s Spiral Hole Radial Tuner/Brake. Should have these posted before the end of April. Cheers, Don.
I’ll anxiously await your results. I tried the Harrell’s clamp on aluminum tuner and it did make a difference on point of impact for the different settings but at the end of the test it never improved over the bare barrel. This leads me to believe that tuners are more effective on long, small diameter barrels.
Great info. Could you comment on longer barrels like 24” or 28” like on the old Winchester 52C & D’s or the H&R M12. Current “precision” rimfire offerings seem to be in the 16 to 20” barrel lengths. It leads me to believe there are no gains in accuracy with the longer barrels. I have a CZ457 MTR and am considering a barrel upgrade so I’m homing in on the right choice.
Gary… Thank you for your viewership and question. The question of barrel length for 22 LR is a common topic. From an internal ballistics point of view, for the 22 LR in a rifle the maximum velocity for target (subsonic ammo) is probably 16 to 18 inches. Our take is the best barrel length depends on what you are doing. The high-end ammo providers, e.g., Eley, Lapua/SK, RWS all quote rifle ballistic data in 26-inch barrels because of their focus on International/Olympics type competitions that need the long barrels for open sight radius improvement and balance, particularly in offhand. You’ll notice, many of these rifles even have sight extenders on these long barrels, common called bloop tubes, to increase the site radius even further. Back in the days of the Winchester 52D and Remington 40X for 3-position/prone we indeed had 26 or 28-inch barrels. In other disciplines, like Rimfire PRS and NRL22, running around with these extremely long barrels is impractical and shorter barrels are preferred, as higher velocities maybe more important than absolute precision. Also, if you’re using muzzle devices like tuners, brakes, suppressors, etc. that all add length you end up seeing a trend toward shorter barrels like the 16.5-inch. And in other disciplines, e.g., precision rimfire, rimfire benchrest, etc. all follow their own guidelines based on desired performance and trade-offs. For the work we do, the sweet spot is around 20-inch, short enough to give us our velocities, long enough to not interfere with our tuners and brakes. Interesting, when CZ introduced the MTR, which has been getting great results even in the 16.5-inch barrel, we saw a trend from them to push many configurations to 16.5-inch. But now we see their 2022 generation is trending back to 20-inch. Hope this helps, Don.
Hi Gary, I had similar questions. This is some additional information that affect barrel length selection in addition to what Mr. Lutter stated. There isn't much velocity to be gained with most standard velocity 22lr after 16. They also do not loose much going a little longer. F.J.Feddersen says on their web site, of their precision 22lr barrels, that their 16" bull has the best harmonics for standard velocity. Their 18" has better harmonics for high velocity loads. It follows a 20" could have better harmonics for hyper velocity loads. Other manufacturers barrels may have favorable harmonics at other longer lengths by using other profiles. Note that longer barrels are quieter with standard velocity 22lr, as the gas pressure falls off. This could be a big feature before foam ear plugs and suppressors. The pressure of the gas escaping and blowing past the bullet as it leaves the barrel is another factor for accuracy. One of the reasons a properly crowned barrel is important. It follows that a longer barrel has lower pressure gas blowing past the bullet as the cork is popped, potentially contributing to precision. Longer match barrels may be able to take advantage of less bullet disturbance at the critical moment the bullet leaves the barrel and also choose a profile with harmonics tuned to that length, as well as the longer sight radius pointed out by Mr. Lutter.
In the opening slide of the video a Walther KK500 target rifle is pictured below a couple of CZ 457s. This implies that the Carl Walther target rifles use the Lothar Walther barrels that are the subject of the video. (Note it's "Lothar", not the way it's frequently misspelled in the video). The two companies are separate as far as I know and the Carl Walther rifles don't necessarily use the Lothar Walther barrels - they may do, I have no way of knowing - but this should not be assumed. For example, look at the Lothar Walther website and they offer stainless steel barrels whereas the KK500 rifles come with blued Cr-Mo steel as standard (with stainless as an option). "Walther has a long, rich history of Olympics-class rimfire" - it does, but again not necessarily Lothar Walther. Contacting the factory in Ulm, Germany could probably find out for sure.
An outstanding engineering presentation that provides the technical facts that one needs to know if you are into 22lr shooting. Your latest report on the CZ 457 LW chamber machining problem is spot on. I called Neal and had the die set in a week. It does exactly what is explained in the presentation. With a little sorting to find the out of spec rounds followed by some touch up die profiling. I found that improvements in SD, ES & FPS provide more consistency in group size an POI. The flyer are almost gone. Great job I really like your channel its refreshing to see technical data instead of the loud hyped up sales reviews. If you don't see the chronograph and the environmental the review is useless. Keep up the good work.
Great presentation Don! I really appreciate the scientific approach that you have taken. I have recreationally shot bullseye for 40+ years and never given much consideration to the impact cannelure has on accuracy. This is something that I might explore further in my reloading. However, what I found interesting is that I also shoot a S&W 52-2 and my 148 gn HBWC bullets also wobble sightly. My targets show rub marks along the edge of the hole just like the targets you have shown. Several others that shoot the same gun do not have that issue. It doesn't appear to affect accuracy but is unusual. Any thoughts on what causes this and its impact on accuracy?
I bought a set of rbcs die’s a 3 dies set they are marked Group B it’s a old set of die it’s in a cardboard box it has a WC on the box my question is are these dies made something special 357 and 38 ? Thanks nice video
Hi Brian… Thanks for your question. I haven't used these dies but offer my best guess based on experience and what I have check. This die set is for loading the 38 Special wadcutter (thus the WC) loads we are discussing in this video. There would be a full-length sizing die, a seating die design with a flat seating stem to match up with the flat meplat of the wadcutter (the stem might even seat the bullet slightly under the mouth of the case) and a roll crimp die designed for this particular application. Hope this helps, thanks for your support… Don
Question. I have been reloading for 50 years, and early on, mostly .38 special. I have a question about the crimp process. If you crimp the case and bullet separately, won't the lead on the bullet below the crimp groove be sheared off and up into the groove as you seat the bullet? If not, will the case expand as the base of the bullet passes by its groove? Does the case expand as the bullet passes by and then retract back into the bullet groove when the bullet reaches its final depth? As a mechanical engineer I sometimes dive too deep into things. With the lead of swaged bullets being fairly soft I can't see how this method would work. However, the results speak for themselves, and are very impressive, and your research into this subject is second to none. But what is really going on inside that case? It would make more sense to me to crimp the case to the bullet after the round is loaded, in one operation.. How do the factory boys do it? Each component separately or as a unit? Can't wait to hear what you have found on this subject.
Al... Thank you for your question. Sorry for any confusion in the video but you are correct the process we use is: 1- Rolled the cannelure onto the bullet by itself first..the UCTII doesn't create any ridge on the bullet to interfere with seating, 2- Seat the bullet as normal, usually a small flare on the case mouth will help prevent any shaving of the bullet as it is seated, 3- We do a roll crimp, as a separate process step, to remove the flare and provide a nice rolled edge for the flush seated bullet, 4- Then we roll the case cannelure(s) on the loaded round lined it up with the cannelure(s) or we added to the bullet… locking the whole thing in. Thank you for your viewership and support… Don
There a a very large number of assumptions made in this video that contradict years of experimentation and iterative experience by top shooters in Benchrest and F-class. Specifically that the “ratio” does not adversely affect performance. Chambers are very specifically cut for neck wall thickness by top gunsmiths who have been making record-setting and championship-winning rifles for many years. Too much expansion on firing may not impact the first firing of brass, but will definitely increase work hardening of the brass, reducing brass life and consistency of subsequent reloads. It will also increase the rate at which the carbon ring forms at the front of the chamber. While I understand the limits of this experiment equate to a single barrel, conclusions can not be made based singularly on this particular chamber. That is why the iterative testing, and the knowledge gained and shared, by legends of the shooting community is so valuable.
