temples the best stage if you both agree to not be a bitch, but in competitive play that wont happen all the time. also the main thing that you missed which makes stages unviable for competitive play is walls, walls allow for many infinite combos which shouldnt be possible. also happy birthday
I like that Melee has not one, but TWO legal Kirby stages. My favorite stage of all time is FoD, and I was ecstatic to see it again in Ultimate. Unfortunately, it's not legal, which is a huge disservice. If I were to make a video like this, it'd definitely go on my list.
I'm a Kirby main in every smash game. One thing I like about Melee Kirby that I wish he had in Ultimate is up-air. That move is randomly strong and sends opponents at a perfect angle for edge guarding. I guess even Sakurai didn't want Kirby to have 0 ko aerials, so he craked up air!
@@djdrizzy9139 I imagine Kirby up air to be the result of jiggs and Kirby being semi clones in the last game. They give jiggs a strong down b killer, and they give Kirby an up air killer. Truly up air has no reason being that busted. If Kirby had a confirm into up air, he might be better. Up tilt to up air only works so much
@@SamVs.Boredom It seems like Kirbys either ko raw with up air, or confirm it from up tilt. It would certainly be more reliable if he didn't have to stale it from using it so much lol. Oh well, at least it's something to work with. Ever since Melee, his up air hasn't been the same; I'll miss you, my beloved funny aerial. 🙏
@@djdrizzy9139 I know that in smash 4 and ultimate you might be able to link a couple together, but the real way to use up air is jump monado from shulk. I do too miss the killing up air Rest in peace
@@SamVs.Boredom Yeah, it's more of a combo tool post Melee, but at least in Ultimate it can combo and kill, albeit not nearly to the extent of Melee's. It's not just the power, but the horizontal angle that was so good. Hopefully Smash 6 gives my boy a completely new move, and you main Zelda some more good traits too.
Most of these moves are just bad, not unfinished. For example for donkey Kong his giant punch is literally unfinished, but you mentioned the clap instead. Anyway totally decent video, but stick to your premise!
nice video, i hope your channel starts getting more traction from these videos. with that being said, while not his best move, dk's down b is actually pretty good. it is hard to combo out of it but not impossible vs fast fallers like fox and falco, and even without comboing it reliably sets up platform tech chases. ive heard this move described as "four falcos all multishining around you" and when put that way, it is pretty good sounding
@@austini0n177 thank you so much man, that means a lot to me. Yeah it does sound better when you put it like that now that I really think in on it. Dk has been getting so much love lately
Funny you mentioned Roy's aerials and not his actual broken dash attack with incorrectly timed hit boxes. Turns the sword swing into more of a shoulder tackle due to them being too early
@@duwanglover3424 @duwanglover3424 holy shit your right. I completely forgot that love existed. If I could go back and change my video, I would. I'd probably move ness or Mewtwo to the honorable mentions and put Roy in 7th place
Pretty sure the explanation for the active frames is that it was given the same number of active frames as marth's dash attack as a placeholder and never actually fixed it.
The sad thing about Kirby's Hammer is that the idea was good, but just implemented so poorly. If they slightly shortened the hammer handle/startup, made the head stronger on the sweetspot, gave it the ability to reflect projectiles with good timing (ala Ness' bat) and tweaked the way they did the air variation, it would've been genuinely useful. Me personally, I would have had it so it spins vertically once in mid-air - ala Hammer's Giant Swing in _Kirby's Adventure_ and _Kirby & the Amazing Mirror_ - but it hits harder (matching the hitboxes) and gains some additional utility; a direct hit could spike the opponent downwards and pop Kirby upward slightly ala a footstool jump, making it a dangerous off-stage finishing move.
@@alexv3375 I'm honestly hooked on the idea of making it a reflector. Sure it's not like it would change much in the meta of melee, but it gives off ness vibes like you said, but also pit side b reflector. Just one of those quality of life changes to help it function in more situations
I remember playing the Classic mode demo in person at GameFreak (I am old), and trying to use Kirby's aerial side b against the metal fighter. Even 9 y.o. me knew some b.s. was afoot when the move didn't even flinch the enemy.
@@AwesomeMooseSmile barely. It's feasible but certainly not the most impactful move. It could just be a general platformer move that kills enemies in adventure mode alone with the hands
@@jeronimorodriguez4278 I appreciate it man. My next video is gonna be way better. Lil spoiler, but it's gonna be about the best illegal stages in melee. It's gonna help me get more editing down so I don't superimpose the whole video. I appreciate the tips and anymore you got I'm all ears
A mistake the devs of the earlier Smash games (and I guess Sakurai, because he was supposedly the only person to balance the first three games) made was believing that speed and damage having an inverse relationship is balanced. Speed always, always, is better in Smash. A move being big and powerful will only be terrible if it's slow to boot. The utter competitive strength of the "Shine" is almost certainly unintentional. The idea is that, since it's so fast but doesn't do a lot of damage and knockback, players will use it for its designed purpose, as a projectile reflector. Or the entirety of Brawl Meta Knight. Melee also has uniquely terrible multi-hit moves. Like they were kind of rare in 64, but Kirby's dair was nothing if reliable. Zelda's up smash, Roy's up b, Peach's down smash. Inconsistent, weak, jank.
@@hypotheticaltapeworm smash 64 Kirby gives me an aneurysm lol. Yeah multi hits are just not good options. As for shine, the move only is abused because you can jump out of it. It would have fit the role of a reflector if you couldn't act out of it. Imagine if everyone had a move they could cancel or act out of. Melee fox is just playing on turbo mode lol
@@SamVs.Boredom It being frame 1 also helps, but yeah you're right. Later games made sure to butcher that move because no way is a move called "Reflector" supposed to be a bludgeoning tool.
I see aMSa use Yoshi's Side B from ledge to get back on stage as a weird mixup. I also don't think it feels unfinished - it's bad, sure, but it's effective at low level play (the level of play most people played when the game was released) and at the same time does exactly what it's intended to do. Unlike some other moves on the list that essentially do nothing and were clearly not really tested. DK's Down B is actually utilized even in top level DK play. To quote Rishi "You can think of DK's Down B as summoning 4 multishining Falcos. It can poke, set up for combos, and give DK ASDI Down to be safe from counterattacks." Small nitpick, but your explanation of DI is slightly off. DI isn't after hitlag, it's on the second to final frame of hitlag. Once you're launched, your control stick won't do anything in regard to DI.
Yeah probably coulda been more precise with my explanation of DI, but I swear that I can still influence my direction after getting hit. When I'm Zelda I'm usually holding the wrong direction and can save myself after I get hit. Mainly with getting hit up I have a couple more seconds to hopefully save myself. Dk definitely has been rising up the tier list and I haven't seen enough gameplay of him. I definitely miss ultimate down b
pichu f smash is actually better than pikachus in more scenarios, surprisingly. one huge thing is that pichus lingers against shield, sometimes leading to a shield poke that will send them off stage
@@SamVs.Boredom i know your vid is mostly satire but im just a pichu nerd so pichus worst move is actually dash attack, in all aspects other than finishing a combo or ledge guards
its a good list overall but pichu f-smash is actually suprisingly consistent for a multihit, one of their main kill moves, i mained her for a bit i disagree with the idea of platformer moves, its clear that in every game, they made a platform fighter then added adventure mode to it, characters werent built around adventure mode. an actual distinction you could make it between fighting game moves and party game moves, moves like falcon punch work a lot better in 4 player free for all than 1v1 no items good stages. you shouldve included ganons (and falcons) side b, but not for the reasons you mentioned, if you use it on the edge, it immediately puts you into free fall and kills you, and it does not grab ledge, 2 things they immediately went back on. Other moves you couldve included, but didnt even put in honorable mention are samus's up smash, another multihit, which is the least consistent in the game, it literally cannot hit grounded opponents fully, and rarely hits aerial opponents, and G&W's up smash, which is supposed to be intangible on the head, but they forgot his nose, they did this with the spacies as well, but they dip their head down, making it harder to hit, while game and watch makes his head bigger and easier to hit. the command grab part of mewtwos side b, when hit, puts your opponent in a good spot to hit with a kill move, making it useless in all facets (including battlefield through the stage, which, if reacted to, can easily lead to the mewtwo being killed)
I would say that there are party moves, fighting moves, and platforming moves. As for Ganon and falcon side b sending you into free fall if used by a ledge, you could make the same argument for fox and Falco using side b at ledge since it doesn't stop them sometimes. It's a small weakness of the move but most players are aware of when they can and can't use the move to maximize its ability. Ganon side b just loses its value as the percents go up while falcon, Falco, and fox all can get value at most percents while using side b. Mewtwo side b was just handled way better in smash 4 and ultimate. It can work for Mewtwo favor in this game, but generally just not one of his strongest moves.
@@SamVs.Boredom well falcon and ganon are more likely to use their side b near the edge, for fox and falco, side b is mainly a recovery tool (which it would be for falcon and ganon if it grabbed ledge) but for falcon its for starting combos
@@smoceany9478 Tru but there are scenarios fox and Falco can up air after hitting side b. Ganon and falcon side b are both used for combo starters. It's just Ganons just stop working as a combo starter at later percents.
@@SamVs.Boredom yeah but i think the fact it straight up sticks you into freefall and doesnt grab ledge shows that at the very least not much thought was put into the move, i believe it was unfinished
honestly i think the most unfinished move is the character select screen's A button while hovering over GnW. really the definition of unfinished. although i would honestly like to see a character with GnW's awful shield who's actually competitively viable. imagine a good character with a shield they have to either perfectly angle to block attacks, or lightshield and eat all the negative consequences of that. could be super interesting imo. also how dare you call DK's down B unfinished, it summons 4 multishining falcos, that's crazy
G&W is more viable than youd think, none of the G&W's are doing everything. currently the best chaingrabber, a very important part of G&W's kit, is some guy from texas named pickles. a G&W who puts all of it together could consistently top 8 at majors imo
@@simanolastname2399 i think he's definitely got a lot of good traits, but he's also definitely a bottom tier. yknow, bowser and kirby have a few amazing things going for them too... still bad though.
@@syntax2679 zeknX#2708 and Zekn#266 Yeah Falco shine you can di, but it's hard with Zelda who doesn't have many defending options to deal with approaching lasers or dair. Plus he can triple shine to insta kill me off the top on low stages
My honorable mentions is Falco back air. Feels like it beats Everything. My biggest gripe with dealing with Falco neutral isn't even lasers, it's back air.
@@coltoncusimano5460 I like that too. My next video is gonna be talking about the unfinished moves of smash and surprise surprise, most of the low tiers have em
Hey you ain’t even mention wave shining… for some reason Peach and Zelda are the easiest characters to wave shine can be infinite with perfect reads making it unplayable for the most part…
@@127marq that is true, but that's an extension of jumping out of shield. Wave shining is annoying as fuck, but it's shine and the value it gets is way more annoying. Believe me I hate getting drill shined to death, but wave shining isn't a move. It's just the result of a move being too broken and unfair. Shine in general is unfair
Honestly, with this game, I don't think it's a case of the good characters being too oppressive as it is the bottom tiers being way too garbage. It's kind of like the opposite of Smash Ultimate, where the Smash Ultimate top tiers are really good, but the low tiers are just kind of okay. I'd rather if all the bottom and low tiers were good enough to contend with the high tiers than make it so the high tiers were less good (I'm also saying this as a Zelda main)
zeldas experience as a low tier is very different from other characters, G&W can beat many of the options you say you need to use unfair characters to beat. many other low tiers can aswell, zelda is uniquely slow and limited in her options
You are right about Zelda being uniquely slow and limited, but that is only because of the unfair options that oppress her play styles. I'm still able to take wins against these characters, it's just when they start to rely on these unforgiving moves, that the game becomes one sided. A fair move should also have weaknesses and counterplay for everyone at some point. Game and watch and Zelda both have deliberate issues and weaknesses in their character kit that makes the game an uphill battle rather than a fair fight. The only thing game and watch has going for him in my opinion is nair. The rest is player skill because no matter the tier, any character can take a win. But without those unfair moves to rely on, there is no progression.
@@SamVs.Boredom G&W def has more than nair. fair, down tilt, his f smash and his bair have many uses, and as pickles has shown, his chaingrab can bring him a long way, theres certainly ways to outplay those spammy moves with most characters though not as easily for zelda.
@@smoceany9478 @smoceany9478 he does have way more usable moves than Zelda, and in fact most characters do, however he still isn't able to L cancel all of his moves deliberately making him act slower than the rest of the cast, and with his shield not covering him all the way, he is objectively weak against the rest of the roster. He is close to being a glass cannon like Jigglypuff but simply is just lacking with code in his moves. There are certainly ways for Zelda and G&W to work around spammy moves, but the issue comes as to where they don't have spammy moves themselves or the fact that those moves are on characters that have a plethora of options to use if one options doesn't work. There's no doubt that game and watch works better with his chain grab and mid ranged moves, but Zelda also has a chain grab and strong moves as well. It's just that both Zelda and game and watch are unfinished and have gaps in their movesets that other character don't have to deal with. Nothing is ever easy as a lot tier, but if low tiers are battling other low tiers, the game becomes 50/50 rather than having to deal with options and techniques that just aren't available for the rest of the cast and smashed into a moveset that has no gaps
@@SamVs.Boredom he can l cancel both fair and dair. in my opinion, and many others who play this character, he isnt suffering at all offensively, he is just the worst character by far in the disadvantage state, with his low weight, bad shield, bad roll and bad spotdodge. i will say, zelda is one of the characters i struggle playing as the most, she certainly doesnt have much.
@@Aio-Project I agree. Hew moves are honestly unfinished just like game and watch. I have ways to use her f and up smash like using up smash on fast fallers and if they pop out of f smash behind me I can still react, but ultimately it would be nice to have a grounded killing option. Like make up tilt kill so at least there's an anti air killing option. Zelda ground game is almost worst than jiggs
yeah falco down air is pretty annoying to deal with, but the power of down air only rises because of shine and lasers. It is very unfair, but not nearly as oppressive as being laser spammed or shined to down air
