I'm starting to countersink the fuel tank attach screw holes in the spar. The nut plates that came with my -14 Sky Designs ER tank kit are MK1000-08. The distance between the rivets on these nut plates is much smaller than the K1100-08 nut plates Vans uses. If I countersink to the depth Vans recommends, the countersink hole would extend into the rivets used on the smaller nut plates for the ER tank attach holes. Did you just countersink into the rivet heads???
Yes you do. In most instances, the rivets on nutplates are just there to keep the nutplate from rotating when you insert a screw - and the screw is what bears the actual load. So as long as the rivet is enough to keep the nutplate from rotating, it's good enough.
They are held in place by tank sealant. Of course, with the senders installed, they are also held in place by screws. They were also held in place with screws when the sealant was curing…
Helpful! Came across this and am going to call Cies tomorrow. My senders for my 10 are also showing a lower number at the highest point, so I want to check if you can reverse the signal in the Garmin G3X or do I need to sway the L & R like you did. I am going to proseal mine, my expectation is to never have to get in there... I know, optimistic. I hear the rubber gaskets crack with the aviation fuels easily.
They told me to reverse mine. I’d definitely connect the two (if you have outboard ones) and test before you proseal anything. I think the gaskets are pretty robust. I cant imagine having to remove one if I prosealed it, but that’s what most builders seem to do…
Prospective Vans builder here. I wonder why, why ITNOG they had to outsource to the other side of the world. How they thought they could control de quality so far away. But you know, labor is cheaper in the Philippines, let’s s do it. I really hope they come out of this for all you guys in the middle of the building process, but new customers we will pay the price. Your analysis was right on the post and glad to find your channel. You have a new follower.
I'm building a -14 using the standard tank size. You did an excellent job of keeping the inside of the tank clean. The tank sealant gunk is really sticky stuff. Where did you buy the nut plate ring?? Where did you buy the CIES fuel tank sending units for the $600 price?? Please reply to my email address. Thanks.
I don't have your email address, so I'll just reply here. I contacted CIES directly for the RV10 senders, and I got the nutring here: www.airpowerinc.com/1716008-1. Note that you'll need 5/8 10-24 hex screws to secure these things and you'll have to upsize the existing holes.
@buildingthe10 Great video. I am building an RV14 and really like the nutring and adding a return line for future use. I see that you posted the links. I will definitely order the same, thanks
Fantastic video! You did a great job with camera positions and editing - not to mention content. Can you tell me where you got that nutplate alternative for the sending units as well as the fuel return fitting? Thanks again for sharing this video!
Thanks for the video! You are quickly becoming my favourite RV-10 builder content creator. I talked with Ken last week before ordering a Sky Designs ER tank kit because I had some concern on the limitations of his suggestions for the pilot handbook. After talking and telling him my concerns, he realized that there was indeed an error in it and he is currently working at updating his engineering report. Expect a new revision soon. One suggestion though, it would be nice if you could include in the description the part numbers or name of items you are using. A link to the CiES unit, nutplate and that fuel return valve would be pretty useful. Keep on building those suckers!!
Thanks! I added a link to the vendor that sold the nutrings (www.airpowerinc.com/1716008-1) and I contacted Cies directly for their RV10-specific senders. The two outboard senders were interchangeable, but the inboard senders are specific to the left and right sides. In the case of these senders, they were either mislabeled or Vans had switched up their fastener holes, so I ended up switching them. That is, the sender labeled "left" is actually on the right tank.
I considered and performed the homework on including the Sky Designs extended range tanks for my RV-14 project. For me, I concluded that I would seldom top-off to the factory designed 50-gallons. 50-gallons gives right around 4-hours including reserves. Staying well hydrated when I was flying 6+ hour legs, there was no way to pass on Nature's Call after three hours - max. So, for me, I took a pass on extended range tanks. Will you be adding an additional fuel sensor per tank?
Yes, I have two senders per tank. I'm not sure how often I will fill up to the full 83 gallons or use 6 straight hours of flight time. I mostly just wanted the option...
You don't have to take on fuel every time you land to answer the "call of nature" if you have extended your range with extra fuel onboard. That means a quicker turn around on the ground AND the option of picking and choosing when and where you refuel. Isn't that the underlying advantage of extended-range fuel tanks?
@@philipritson8821 Guess it all comes down to personal preferences and flight planning, right? Land with too-much fuel (i.e.: weight) given the prevailing weather conditions, will you be able to take off again?
@@EJWash57 I haven't flown one of these yet, but supposedly the engine is powerful enough that takeoff - even with a full load at a high density altitude - is probably not going to be a problem. If I have a full fuel load, it will be almost 500lbs, so that would leave me with less usable load for other things.
@@philipritson8821 yeah, that's one of the things I like about the ER tanks - it gives me options. I can also have more flexibility with filling up at places that have cheaper fuel and not necessarily having to fill up at every stop - like places with expensive fuel. I think it will just give me more options.
Thanks for the videos. I've had good success using double sided tape on the mushroom set. It keeps the set in place on the surface but needs to be replaced after a couple dozen rivets or so.
Vans has not tested this to my knowledge and this represents a risk. However, Ken Krueger, the guy who designed these, used to be an engineer at Vans and helped design the RV10. He is fairly accomplished in his own right and I have confidence in his design skills. Their inclusion has minimal impact on CG and the net force on the wing is up, not down.
This thread may be of interest to you. Some of the replies discuss your questions. Vans Airforce - appears-vans-not-allowing-sky-design-wing-tank-er-mod
Love the steps with drilling the torque tubes. Very informative and great advise! I love seeing a reamer being used. Having access to a plethora of tools i see this in my future :)
Love this idea of setting the trailing edge wedge. I know the metal you are working with and as a commercial airliner sheet metal guy your results are impressive !
Thanks, though I think there are better build videos (and even better: blogs) that explain how things work. I'm aiming for semi-entertaining more than how-to.
26 year A&P and private pilot. you just blew my mind with the soldering iron to make nice lines with the plastic protector ! love the videos and glad I've found your channel.
honestly wish I lived closer to the headquarters. My work schedule allows me off days and free time. With their reputation and what they have done to make GA affordable i would donate time / for the love of GA to help get things back in order.
Same with me. At this point, I've read a lot of what people have had to say and my assessment is that they are an engineering-first company and got slammed by a business environment that they were not prepared for. Frankly, much larger, more business savvy enterprises have made worse mistakes. I think they're good people.
It's Tuesday, it's 11:43 p.m. and I found your channel, that's not a good combination, I think today I'll stay up a little watching your videos, you've earned a subscriber, I wish you much success in building a dream, because this is more than just building an airplane in your garage, only aviation lovers know what we mean
Many thanks for the video. I'm building an RV-14A and was not sure if all elevator rib tabs are not to be dimpled. It looks as though you did not dimple them. You do a fantastic job explaining things in your videos which leads me to believe you may be a professor (good/enjoys teaching things to others). I just bought the same hydraulic squeezer but haven't used it for dimpling get. I believe I will give it a try. Thanks again for your videos. RWG
Thank you for the kind words! If I remember correctly, I *did* dimple the ribs where they connect to the skins (I don’t film everything…). I would read the instructions carefully - something I don’t always do which leads to me getting continually burned…
I think their biggest mistake was trying to grow to meet the increased temporary demand during Covid by outsourcing some parts production. Hindsight is always 20/20 but they should have just let the lead times increase and wait for all the people who were bored during covid realize they wouldn't have enough time or money to take on one of these projects. I think they will survive just fine, maybe just with new owners however.
Really good quality on the videos so far, hope you'll continue making these! I'm a subscriber anyway. But remember, the build is more important than YT views!
Coming along just swell... I'm sure you've heard the knews about Vans filing for Chapter 11; I was expecting a buyout, but this is good news (given the alternatives). I'm moving forward with my build...
Someone needs to ask how the decision making changed. Was their some management change internally? VANS had a great history - not flashy but solid. All of a sudden they just lost their way on the mgmt side. They go all in on outsourcing and do almost no quality control - some of the holes that were laser cut make NO SENSE that they'd get through inspection just once back in the US before being shipped. Their treatment and response to complaints by builders felt like it did a 180 - they were SUPER slow to react to complaints. If you don't fix / get rid of whoever the new person was that came up with all these innovations you are going to be screwed.
I don't think it was the decision making that changed so much as the business environment. In particular, the shipping of QB kits got much more expensive (after they had already locked in a price), as did the aluminum parts (inflation combined with longer lead times meant that, by the time they produced the parts, their costs were much higher than they were when they locked in the kit price). They had a dramatic increase in orders during Covid which increased lead times substantially. And they got hit with a double whammy of quality control issues: laser-cut parts and QB kits that had bad primer (as well as LCP). Most likely, they were simply overwhelmed. I think Vans has been run by engineers and enthusiasts, but even business types would have had a hard time managing this. But that's just my two cents.
If they can't pay suppliers, suppliers stop shipping and demand any further orders be pre-paid in full prior to shipment. You can only raise prices on kits so much before sales take a big old dump. They are trying to keep that mass appeal with average Joe builder. With that comes lower pricing. Go to higher pricing, then your market will shrink considerably. At some point you cross the line to the unaffordable and unrealistic zone and lose all the average Joes. Now you're left marketing to just rich guys who can simply afford to go out and buy a 500k airplane, so why would they mess around with Vans kits. When you raise prices on food, people have to suck it up and pay the higher prices because we all need food. Nobody "needs" a very costly hobby airplane. Allegedly Cleveland tools had too many eggs in the Van's customer basket and is having business issues now as well. There is a domino effect.
good video - thanks for sharing. particularly hard situation because of the nature of the business - kits are shipped in groups, not all at once. someone buys a group of parts, starts building - it could take years but you know that when you're ready you can order the next group of parts and keep rolling. but now, maybe not. I really feel for anyone in this situation and sincerely hope some solution will come about. the 'coming clean' video by Mr. Van is admirable in some respects, but what the fan boys don't seem to want to admit is that Van's had to have seen all this coming for quite some time before it really blew up :(
Given the current circumstances, Vans needs to reprice everything currently on order and offer either a refund or supply at the revised price, depending on customer's preference.
I have the lead counterweights done, yes; I shaped them with a flat curved tooth file, I believe. What is the 1/32 thing you are talking about (it's been a while since I did this)?
Let me ask you this. What if the new owners come in and file for chapter 11? That will definitely hurt the builders. Court cases take a minimum of one year. And then to resolve a court decision would take another 6 months. I think that you're looking at a year and a half to get your parts, best case.
Companies usually file for bankruptcy at the behest of creditors (who want to get repaid). As far as I know, Vans doesn't have much debt, and I don't think that creditors breathing down their neck is one of their problems. I have never been aware of a company filing for bankruptcy in order to get out of customer commitments (though I am no lawyer, and maybe this happens). But even if they could do this, it would be incredibly stupid to do so - it would forever break customer trust and who would ever write them a check again? From what I understand, what they need right now is cash - because they don't have enough to fund operations. The way they will likely get this is to sell an equity stake - maybe even a controlling stake. For example, you come in and say "here's the $10 million you need to supply new LCP, pay employees, and all that other stuff, but now I want a 70% equity stake in the firm." Something like that. That's how I see this playing out. Also, firms can (and usually do) continue to operate. For example, GM went through bankruptcy in 2009, but most customers weren't even aware of it. So unless liquidation is on the table (I can't imagine this being the case for Vans), even if they were to get through bankruptcy, it's entirely possible that customers won't see a complete standstill in operations. But again, unless Vans has a lot of creditors who want to take collateral (or something like that), I don't see how this happens.
@@buildingthe10 My interest in Vans is this. I'm a fiberglass man. I once built a Velicity, flew it awhile and sold it. But I got the itch again and bought an rv6 from an estate. My goal is to turn it into an "A"; and change the engine to a 360. Fairly simple and a small investment. Here's the situation with Van's. A company can file a voluntary bankruptcy, and many do using chapter 11, which is the reorganization bankruptcy, and the sooner they do, the better for all of us. As you know the problem is with the RV 12. I'm just going to guess and say there's a thousand of them out there, and in my opinion every one of them is worthless. The owners, in my opinion are going to have to take the motors out and sell it, because the motor is going to be worth more than the motor and the plane. I base my opinion on this, an airplane is not like buying a car. In my opinion no buyer is going to want to touch an RV 12 much less buy one no matter when it was built. Now, you non RV 12 owner's can basically wait for your parts, because after all, you have to, but the RV 12 guys, in my opinion, are not going to roll over and take it. I foresee a huge class action suit against Van's, 1000 planes times an average cost of $20,000 is two million (My mistake, it's twenty million dollars} plus legal fees. I doubt Van's we'll have this money considering they won't be able to sell a kit during the course of the lawsuit. And for Vans to expect renumeration from a foreign corporation is silly. In my opinion, the only way to save Van's is to sever the RV 12 line through Chapter 11. I'm fortunate, my RV6 was certified in 2002, before Van's would ever consider having parts made in a foreign country.
@@josephmistretta6211 If they got sued, that might push them to bankruptcy. But that hasn't happened yet, and I'm not hearing any real concerns that it might happen. At least beyond the regular we're-in-the-US level of maybe being sued.
@@josephmistretta6211 where are you getting your information on the 12? It’s a very popular kit and used in flight schools…Vans is in very deep and will most likely have to limit the kits they sell, but I see the 7, 8, 10, we and 14 surviving.
Problem is I guess builders have no option but to buy, so they may close the company, avoid the liabilities and a new company starts up at higher prices. Unlikely to be good for builders either way sadly. Depends on the degree of liability but if it's too great no-one will buy it. Sad.
I'm not so sure - the fact that Vans has run out of cash means a potential buyer or equity investor has an edge in bargaining. Basically, if you can fund the LCP and QB costs, you get to buy Vans. Or at least a large stake of it. But new equity investors have a pretty strong bargaining position because they can go to current owners and say "would you like to own 100% of an insolvent company, or 20% of a company that exists?" I don't know what the numbers are, of course - Vans is a private company and doesn't disclose its financials. But if I had to bet, it would be that somebody is about to get a huge equity stake in the company for relatively cheap.
I didn’t see or hear anything about Van’s temporarily ceasing kit orders. Doing so doesn’t make sense and kit order pages are still active on their website. The only thing regarding kit orders that has been announced is that shipping could be delayed.
On their website they say that "kit orders will not be processed" during the next few weeks (www.vansaircraft.com/2023/10/business-announcement-from-vans-founder-dick-vangrunsven/). The are almost certainly going to raise prices, and allowing people to lock in prices now would probably not be a good financial move. Anyway, I interpret this to mean that they are not taking orders.
The issiue - do we believe in VANS or not. Vans definitly has a lot of customers and reputaion. That's why this issiues will be fixed. Everything will be ok, but maybe a bit later. As i heard it's a huge demand for RV-15. It's no way to get reall bunkruptsy with such conditions. It's a sikness of growth.
