While I think it makes perfect sense to include Ringen, safety is definitely an issue, and if permitted it is easily the most dangerous risk in HEMA. So many things can go wrong. Judo has evolved to become safer, but still, bones can and have been broken by Judo experts many times. Besides, getting thrown into the hard floor is no fun. Therefore, I would say it makes sense to have a softer area to land, and maybe limit the moves to some of the simpler, less impressive throws in the name of safety. Otherwise, we are letting a % of people getting injured (potentially heavily injured) by people who will throw you in any way in order to win or to show off. That will probably help minimize (not remove) the danger. Breaking a rib is quite easy, believe me. But i still feel that's probably a good compromise. Otherwise, you just need to get unlucky once. And landing with your hands or head can leave permanent consequences.
I always feel weird about seeing judo in HEMA, I've seen guys dropped HARD. Granted, due to their own force coming in but had no idea what was coming. I get that grappling is a part of HEMA - but in no way is a Japanese martial art relative to European martial arts. People say it's the same thing as what's found in HEMA literature, I'm not convinced.
The throw at 3:11 and 3:29 should be DQs. Those look like hard floors and the throw at 3:29 he almost face planted the guy. I love Judo. I love it. But someone is gonna get fucked up. Also if HEMA ever becomes an Olympic sport the teams are gonna recruit out of Judo and Wrestling. Mark my words.
Honestly a lot of these really shouldn't be given to the thrower imo, they didn't really protect themselves and/or did the throw after a halt was called (or should've been called).
Man this was a fun tournament I love ever minute of it I got to talk yeti a lot of amazing people and I got to have lightsaber duel too I can’t wait to go back next year thanks bucks
singake Ryu Marabashi, all these situations are played out there and there are standard solutions. Here, the newbies are trying to come up with something funny.
Im all for grappling in hema and we definitely need more of it in competition but there's so much bad practice going on here i can't support it. Many many instances of people carrying on after a halt has been called by the ref, most people apparently unaware of how to land safely with a sword both the people being thrown and the people doing the throwing. All it takes is to land badly one time to ruin someone's life.
That tall fucker in the blue and yellow socks is just being a dick about things. 2:26 - 3:06 he's throwing people after the judges call. It's pretty close in the first clip cause the head-judge was late. In the second clip he gets thrown and keeps fighting despite the stick of wrath being shoved in his face.
when you check armored fight you quickly realize most fights would end up with blunt damage or in a hand to hand combat with a dagger finding its way into the armor crack
Ringen is cool until someone gets injured. Now, In my opinion, if I were the coach or the organiser of a HEMA event, I wouldn't allow it if there is no "safe/soft" ground like those big square gym mats that you get together as a puzzle. I participated in a tournament last month where 3 dudes messed up their knees.
another issue is that not everyone's guaranteed to know how to grapple, and people who can't grapple are both the most likely to get taken down and the most likely to get hurt badly when being taken down
@@gremlin633 I disagree, wrestling is part of longsword fencing, you have it in many manuals across different masters. It should be done in a safe manner though, maybe no throw unless there is no soft ground to do them.
@@sirxarounthefrenchy7773 i ve never seen a longsword tournament on a tatami. For what I see around, nobody knows how to do it safely. I wouldn trust. It is already hard to teach modern people how to fence with a longsword.. to me it would be impossible to start a career in jujitsu, have a tatami and get people to train 6 days a week in all sort of martial arts.. i also don t really see why. You see, there are all sorts of manuals, you need to understand what you want to do. Where you want to develope skills and where is not interesting for you.
Nice complilation. I think the first one looks like an osoto gari? Typical reaching style for LvR stances. A decent judoka would do some serious damage in those binds
Dude, this is awesome. The overlap of interest on this is tiny lol, but im glad it came up in my recommended. Are we sure that first throw is an ippon though? It looked like something a little more adjacent to an uchi mata, though im struggling for a name.
Ippon isnt a throw. The word ippon is used to designate a throw that would incapacitate the person being thrown. A knockout essentially. So any throw can be an ippon.
first move is definitely neither an uchi mata nor an ippon seoi nage. i'd say it's kinda like an attempted tai otoshi that ends up turning into an o-goshi. you can see tori trying to step across to trip uke over their far leg, but they miss and end up lifting uke onto their hip and throwing them over (o-goshi). because of the weird position, lack of grips, etc. it looks really weird and hard to tell. for ippon seoi nage, the actual throwing motion comes from the hip and sleeve grip. in the clip, the arm is on the wrong side for ippon seoi nage uchi mata involves tori kicking their thigh backwards to elevate uke's thigh; in the first clip tori's feet are both firmly planted on the ground.
The romanisation of the kanji allow both or even more writings, as far as i understand it. The writing jiu jitsu is as korrekt as ju jutsu and ju jitsu. I dont think it has anything to do with the founders of bjj in particular.
You're thinking of jujutsu. Judo is a more modern practice based on Jigoro Kanno's style of jujutsu. Judo also goes beyond being a purely martial art, extending into the fields of pedagogy and philosophy, which is why it is called ju-do ("the soft way") as opposed to ju-jutsu ("the soft art").
@@malte291 Judo isn't based on Kano Jigoro's style of Jujutsu but on multiple styles of Jujutsu including his styles.Judo is essentially watered down Jujutsu.
Thanks for the comment. First I want to emphasize a terminology issue: "grappling" is not the same thing as "takedowns," grappling is still very common in modern tournaments. Takedowns were never common and are objectively becoming less common. One clear reason is simply because more tournaments disallow takedowns than they did before. Other than that, tournaments that allow takedowns and record exchanges show a decrease over time in percentage of total exchanges ending in takedowns. Here is the data for SoCal Sword Fight, the largest HEMA tournament in the world: 2018: 3 takedowns out of 208 exchanges (1.4%) 2019: 3 takedowns out of 297 exchanges (1%) 2020: 5 takedowns out of 1667 exchanges (0.3%) 2022: 1 takedown out of 1689 exchanges (0.06%) 2023: 0 takedowns out of 10339 exchanges (0%) 2024: 1 takedown out of 11245 exchanges (0.009%) The data is available on HEMA scorecard. If you still disagree and think that takedowns are common, please send me some video so I can start putting together part 3, I like to see more.
@buckshistoricallongsword9412 I'm just a jujitsu guy. So for me, grappling is all the grabby parts of a fight. I was just curious cause in a general sense grappling is popping off in the US and even in bjj tournys there's alot more emphasis on takedowns nowadays. Figured alot of people cross train nowadays too. And why do you think they ban the takedowns? Is it for safety? Focus on the sword part? Lol yall do be fighting on hard ass surfaces.
@@justin8865 A little of column A, a little of column B. For our sport, they end up being more trouble than their worth, you need a ton of extra rules and equipment, and in exchange you get something that is admittedly very cool, but only happens a very small percentage of the time. Even though they are rare, when they result in an injury, it's usually a life changing one, like someone's leg gets caught and twisted and then they're out of the sport for the next year.
@@buckshistoricallongsword9412 imo mats should be a requirement if you're going to allow takedowns at your event. ideally there would also be limitations to what takedowns you're allowed to go for the same way there are for grappling sports but then that'd require the competitors and refs to know the names of all the takedowns and that'd be a huge pain in the ass. higher amplitude stuff onto hard floors are pretty much always going to be really painful, and the risk of long term injury is going to be really high, particularly when the person being thrown isn't experienced or isn't expecting a grappling exchange (seems to be the case in most of these clips) and therefore can't breakfall properly. 3:10 is pretty egregious for example, ref calls a stop to the action and then uke gets suplexed onto a hardwood floor. seriously uncool move by the other guy. a lot of these takedowns are happening well after a break is called, and some are extremely egregious and would get you penalized/DQd even in a grappling sport. i think in hema you're also going to run into the same issue as judo newaza, where resets get called before anything can really happen; as i mentioned earlier a lot of these takedowns are happening well after a reset is called and with the opponent clearly not actively resisting.
The double leg takedown is called Morote Gari. 1:55 2:23 it was another morote gari attemped, but then the opponent tried to counter with o-goshi 2:35 was Ippon Seoi Nage. (Watch it in slow mo) 2:52 looks like a variant of Sode tsurikomi goshi Who ever edited this video definitely messed up on the labeling of the throws, but then again they probably dont do judo so i understand 😅
Not all double leg takedowns are morote gari. Morote gari is a reaping of both legs, in the clips above the legs are not reaped, the uke is lifted and dropped. Therefore they are sukui nage, not morote gari.
This was really nice. Fun watch and just interesting how this exchange came about. Goes to show how much potential for programming/being programmed there is.
I like hema for the swordplay. it might be allowed in the rules but using blunt swords makes moves like these very low risk, which in my opinion, not really in the spirit of swordplay. it might be possible to pull this off with sharps but the risk is much greater and i think it would be much less likely to be used.
If you see HEMA as a sport then it's a matter of agreed rules. If you see it as martial first then there are no rules except victory without major injury and takedowns are just a normal part of the techniques catalog. Personnaly, I'm definitely going for the martial side as it's what makes HEMA interesting over olympic fencing, including other things such as fighting with different weapons and multiple opponents in uneven areas...
Like the takedowns, however, since it is swordfighting, there should be some finishing move with the sword in order to get points. Just taking the opponent down does not mesn anything, especially when the one executing the throw falls down too. The final positioning can give advantage to eighter of the two. Without finish, this should be a double.
or at the very least, follow the rules of Glima (Icelandic wrestling) and whoever can get up without the opponent having a hold of them without their back to the enemy first "wins". The implication in a MARTIAL situation is that at point, you could grab a weapon to finish it, or your buddy could run up and stab the guy on the ground.
Hi, thank you for the comment. I honestly don't remember what I was going for at that moment, but I do know that I did not plan to grapple before the exchange began, the grapple arose organically. I hope this helps, thanks.
