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This was a great discussion. I like Wilson, I think he is trying to fight for the soul of America and I do find his brash style comforting in a world that brutally assaults the church. In that when I'm being attacked. It's comforting that someone is fighting back. I will also say however that there is a real lack of preaching grace for sinners in Doug's work. I remember reading one of his books where he said something on the lines of 'You're not saved by your works but you should be making an effort.' I remember hearing that and being like: That's like saying I didn't have sex with her we just slept together. You're saying the same thing just using different words. It's sneaky. After that I found resting in the grace of God and trusting that Jesus has completely forgiven you even if you never improve or stop sinning. That the entire reason Jesus died for you was to release you from the Law and the constant need to try and sanctify yourself. So that you can simply trust that Jesus has completely and totally forgiven you and go and live your life as a human being. I still love Doug, I think he's a very wise and good man. I do enjoy his humor and his willingness to be brash and fight back when needed. I do also see that he can be a perfectly kind gentlemen. All that to say that I think Doug is a good man but that sneaky works righteousness that is there I think he is wrong in his teaching there.
I have a genuine question, not a troll or trying to make a point. In what way is the pastor speaking for God more than the word of God (the Bible) itself? And in what way are you closer to heaven than when you read, or sing, God's word alone or with others in your family? I ask because I know people who don't care to go to church, who will argue about reading God's word at home.
My go to answer to those who say they don't need church isn't about being closer to heaven, or that we are hearing Jesus... Instead I say that we are commanded to gather together, and we are told what that entails (with elders and deacons with an orderly service).
Pastor Chris - I have recently watched your RU-vid videos. I started my christian journey as a catholic then left the faith. Recently started attending a bible church. Your words inspire me to focus on what matters daily - the word, prayer and believers to hold you accountable in a secular world. God bless
This is too true! It’s akin to when people read their Bibles and think, “I wish THAT guy would read this passage. He really needs to hear THIS.” How about as laypeople we start listening to the sermon and think, “What is God trying to teach ME?”
Came to this video as a regular reader of Wilson - very much fatigued by the all too common Reformed-internet zeal for personality clashes and firing artillery while preaching to one's own choir - so these face to face interactions are great to see. These bring so much light and unity, and minimal heat. Something that was touched on is so important to emphasize - there is a lot more common ground between Moscow and Escondido "on the ground" (both building Christian communities) than you would ever guess if all you'd ever seen were the differences of opinion on how preferences for public Christianity are expressed between the two "camps". How good it is when brothers come together face to face.
Sing the Psalms acapella and nothing else then you will be obeying the Lord in worship. Don’t celebrate 5 holy days a year that were made up by men and not by God. The Dutch Reformed have not yet put away their monuments of Idolatry that Wilhelmus A’Brakel fought to destroy.
Interesting. I grew up in a CRC and then a URC church, they always felt dead to me. It was tradition, repetition (same liturgy to the point you could do everything with your eyes closed and many did) and heaven forbid no emotion. The preaching specifically was very monotone on purpose to prevent any emotional response, I never grew and ended up resenting and dreading Sunday. I now attend a Reformed non-Denom and I look forward to worship and hearing the word every week!
I felt truly validated by Chris’ concerns and challenges to postmillennialism. He articulated clearly what I had been struggling to express. After listening openly and thoughtfully to Pastor Doug and Jared, I found myself ultimately unpersuaded and in agreement with Chris. However, I deeply love and respect Pastor Doug and Jared and appreciate their efforts in spreading the gospel, defending the Christian faith, and teaching others to do the same.
Thank you for attempting to talk with these men. You were kind and respectful, which is what God requires of all of us. Being kind does not always allow truth to come out fully. The sarcasm, condescension and name-calling of this group of people (as demonstrating in the comments below) is far from what scripture demands of us, but you, Chris, demonstrated it beautifully. Doug was on his good behavior here - but there are many places he is ill-behaved. Calling women c**nts. Writing a fiction novel full of sex. Saying that slaves liked being slaves...... A pastor is called to a higher calling. You understand this, Chris -- I do not think Doug does. If he did, he would have taken the time to get a seminary degree. He only has a BA liberal arts degree from a state university. I once saw an interview with doug and his dad -- they ridiculed men who went to seminary. Laughed about them. Condescension. It appears he is trying to erase his history and trying to fix his public view since he's been on Tucker. I have seen much scrubbed off of his blog (I've been following him for 15 years). He is trying to put out a more gentle Doug because the Doug of old is still there, now masked behind a paywall. This is the big problem -- many people see the newly fashioned Doug but they don't follow his theology and see his errors. Thus, because they are not theologically astute, they will get hurt down the road. Thanks for warning them, Chris and being kind in the process. The self-empowerment of this movement is going to come back to bite the entire Christian world in our generation, and I do think God grieves that his people do not take his advice -- sound theology matters (Federal Vision is not sound). Proper speech matters (Doug's blogs and videos have not been this, though he is trying to give that appearance more and more these days.) Thank goodness for the Wayback machine, where a lot of this is preserved. Anyone getting mixed up in this movement should be very, very careful. They have no clue what they are getting into......the empire Doug has built is a self-serving one. Thanks, Chris, for your effort to try to call our theological errors in kindness. Thanks for showing what being Reformed truly means. The word Reformed does not properly represent Wilson and friends. I wish they would create their own term so we don't get their fallout.
Thanks Chris Gordon for having this conversation. Clearly it was not easy. Debates about eschatology are important but I give a lot of latitude on those. Where Chris' passion and concern was very evident was on being clear about the Gospel. That is why I appreciate AGR so much.
Worshipping should be in obedience to his Word in Spirit and in Truth. That is what brought Lucy and I to worship at Sovereign Grace. Thank you Pastor Chad for speaking the whole truth.
This guy is speaking my language. I came to reformed faith from A29 and I can’t name more than one other person from that movement that has made the same transition. Glad to hear that from Vegas. I have felt alone in that journey. Refreshing interview, can’t wait for the rest.
24:29 The off-roading bit was funny. I remember when it came up in a previous episode. A Suzuki Samurai is such a great unit, it deserves a better fate than as a set piece at a McChurch. 😂 In all seriousness, thank you for this discussion. I’m thrilled to be learning to sing psalms at SG and look forward to more and more. I visited Escondido URC recently and the psalm singing was a joy for us as a family
As someone who grew up firstly in a Mennonite church, then moved to the non-denom evangelical church that you guys are describing, and now to Reformed, this has been such an eye opener. I am learning so much from these conversations. Thank you so much. I hope to attend a Reformed church but struggle to find one where I live unfortunately.
Dr. Peter Masters of the Metropolitan Tabernacle says worship is words. I think the reformed men had a monopoly on use of words for the worship of the church.
It’s hard attending a church that uses man inspired hymns. There are no RPCNA churches in Modesto ca. I used to be a member at URCNA in Ripon California and even that church mixed Psalms with man inspired hymns. Now I attend a CRC church that has gone to PCA and their worship is all man inspired songs which I can’t worship I just stand in silence the whole time.
Amen, #Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, laying aside every weight and the sin which so easily entangles us, let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. ~Hebrews 12:1,2
Don't ask me to defend or define 'Federal vision,' but whatever you call it and however define, Paul sure was concerned with how believers live--run away from fornication, etc etc etc etc etc---his letters always had a 2nd half applying the doctrine of the first. You may not like how (alleged) FVs scratch, but the itch they're scratching is real. John: EVERY man that hath this hope in him purifyeth himself...This after watching tail end. More, re preterism etc, in comment on letters on Blog & Mablog this week, 13 Aug or so. / Andrew Lohr, friendly puritan fundamentalist
It was only just yesterday that I was asking my fellow pastor if he knew of any debates on this topic by men that he trusted. He didn't. But tonight I came across this debate. And I want to tell you how appreciative I am of how this debate was handled and the arguments that you bring to the table regarding the topic, particularly how it pertains to post millennialism. Much of what you describe I see all the time on Twitter. I can almost always spot a post millennialist because of their rhetoric. It is troubling. I have several godly young men in my life that watch Doug Wilson's videos and read his materials. You are absolutely correct that what he says in his writings and what he portrays on his videos are not the same as what he proclaims when he's being interviewed by you or by Tucker Carlson. I'm not at all disparaging my brother. I am saying, like you, their messaging is terrible. Not even the spearheads of Christian Nationalism can define their own movement, and so it is being defined for them by those who have a bent to "take things over." However even if the definition was more in tune with what they are describing in this debate I most likely would not be on board. The post millennial view is like the NAR view that we must make America a Christian nation politically and institutionally before Christ returns. I believe is incorrect. I believe our call is to make disciples forChrist. It's no coincidence that the post-mil Christian Nationalists I see in social media rarely, if ever, talk about gospel, people being saved from their sin, forsaking the world, and suffering with joy in the midst of persecution. Believe it or not, the biggest challenge Christian nationalism has is getting all Christians on board because there are many of us who are not post millennial.
Just an observation about Christian Nationalism: There are so many variations of Christian Nationalism being proposed that the term is nearly meaningless. I also observe that in a nation of weak Christian churches pastored by and populated by weak men, Christian government is a pipe dream. To have a society with Christian character, the churches need to be strong in doctrine, strong intellectually, strong physically, strong emotionally and spiritually. Without a Christian culture, Christian government (if it can exist in that circumstance) would of necessity be sub-Christian and tyrannical.
"You can't understand Pentecostalism as a Reformed person thinking as a Reformed person. It's the oral tradition! If you don't know the oral tradition...that's what informs you. It's not all written down. We all know it. It's communicated. It's in the air you breathe in the early Pentecostal church. Because It's all about going back to Acts." "It's experientially driven." So it's all an oral tradition, but then state it's about going back to scripture... Muslims, Catholics, Atheists, Hindus, and Baptists ALL can say that their experience proves their position correct, but scripture must correct us and be our foundation. NOT experience be what drives us.
I really did appreciate the sincere dialog! I’m a 58 yr old Marine Corps Vet, Reformed, Optimistic Amil and I love Doug Wilson! I also love all the men that surround him like Jarred, Toby, Chocolate, Gabe, and Apologia! I’ve been so disgusted with Big Eva! I may not agree with every jot & tittle Theologically, but there’s no one present that better speaks to Culture & the weakness of the modern Pastor!
Listening to two non-Catholic goofballs discuss this is torture. Jesus ALREADY established a Church which you DENY and refuse to become a part of. You have helped destroy Christian civilization. You are about to die at the hands of the historic enemies of the Catholic Church and continue to spew gibberish. The idiocy of Protestantism is astonishing.
Thank you men for coming together and discussing these things. Very thankful to see it both sides in their full clarity, sitting across the table, interacting with the other side. May God give his people wisdom to think biblically in these days. 🙏
You stopped the questioning of the FV controversy too soon. DW may have backtracked from it and affirmed confessional doctrine, but the his friends haven't. And because he has promoted and vouched for them, they have a platform and a credibility in the reformed community that they otherwise would not have. Many reformed believers have swallowed their teaching hook, line, and sinker because they like DW. He needs to denounce their beliefs and stop promoting them.
The introduction is really long. Wondering if the whole point could have been in the first minute. I had to fast forward almost 10 minutes to find out what this was about😮😮
