i agree with you on pretty much all counts but i just have to say the inclusions of clips from "paper towns" got a laugh from me because of john green's entire intent behind it being that he mc whose name i can't even remember was idealizing margo and didn't even really know her
i think it’s totally on purpose how claire is written and not a result of “bad writing”. we have to contextualize in order to get the big picture of what her role is in the show. they are high school sweethearts, a time in your life that romantic partners tend to be idealized. when you have a crush at a young age you usually only see superficial characteristics and don’t really know the person deeply. if it doesn’t evolve into anything more, they become a fond memory, the same way you usually remember the good parts about a deceased loved one. when claire and carmy meet again as grown ups they still see themselves as those idealized versions. as much as carmy sees claire as perfect, she also has this fantasy of who he is. we only see claire through carmy’s eyes, including when his family talks about her. and he is reluctant to perdue a relationship because to him she is perfect and he is not (throughout every season we see how insecure he is and how he’s constantly trying to prove his worth to the people around him, that nasty boss he had, his family. he has constantly been put down and despite doing the most it never seems to be enough). claire might know his family but she doesn’t know that side of him. i think she puts up with a lot of his stunts because he is also a dream to her, the boy she liked in high school. also, that sequence when carmy is having anxiety and claire pops up between his family makes him even more anxious because she is “perfect” and is a constant reminder that he is not (all he hears and sees is how perfect she is. just as it annoys the audience it rattles him to, MPDGs annoy people because they are walking reminders that we will never be as perfect, quirky, and loveable as they are). i personally liked scenes with claire because they were a breath of fresh air in the turmoil and caos that is the show, calming and warm. that’s how carmy sees those moments too in his chaotic life. i think it would be interesting to see her perspective and life in an episode, she might see carmy in the same light too. but when he says all those things in the freezer that idealized version of him is shattered, a side of him she didn’t know comes to light. syd’s dynamic with carmy sort of begins that way too, she looks up to him as a chef but when she starts working with him she sees how troubled he actually is. that also goes for a lot of other character dynamics in the show, that idealization of outsiders that fuels the insecurities of the characters we know (how richie sees frank, how the family sees pete. these “superficial” characters remind them of all their flaws) quite the tangent i went on but that’s my take on it and i think if you apply that concept while watching it really highlights the shows good portrayals of perfectionism and complexities of social dynamics. it’s a great show, and it still has flaws but that’s exactly what it’s trying to talk about
Hatred? She was my favorite character. I was so pissed when Carmie did what he did to her. Everyone I know feels the same way about her. I think your take is one way to think about her. But another way to think about her is the healer that Carmen so desperately needs in his life. It doesn’t matter that she comes from way back when. To me that only makes it easier because she understands the level of trauma and crazy that he has had to grow up in. A lot of people would have one dinner with Donna and run the other way. She won’t. She is his salvation, she is his strength, she could have been the one thing in his life that actually brought him joy instead of ulcers, pain and panic attacks. I hope he fixes it in the 4th season. I almost didn’t watch the 3rd season 😂😂😂😂 out of shear pettiness because of the breakup. A lot of people love Clair and what she represents for Carmen, the possibility of happiness and were really upset that he never apologized. But I am proud of her for not calling him, not trying to fix his brokenness after that. She deserves better and she knows her worth. I love that even more about her. I hope they do develop her character more in the next season, I hope it works out between them. To me they are perfect for each other.
To be honest I think that the role of "healer" is part of what makes people think of her as a manic pixie dream girl; she comes off as a service to his character instead of a person of her own.
Thank you for this video! I don't hate Claire, I actually liked her relationship with Carmen in S2 since I knew they will use it to show us how self-destructive Carmen could be. BUT I also found myself rolling my eyes and feeling uncomfortable every time she was on screen. I figured it was due to this MPDG aura she had going on. She is a doctor, who has all the time of the world to be there for Carmen and deal with his bs?!! A DOCTOR??!!!! She doesn't seem to really have a life out of being Carmen's dream girl. Carmen basically told her she was a waste of his time and she just went out with "grace" and a kiss??? BEAT UP THAT MF, CLAIRE! (jk) What pisses me off a little about all this is that they could have show us how broken Carmen is without using the MPDG trope. Just show a decent human being that has her life and struggles but is still more healthy than Carmen's entire family... it's not really that hard with that specific family yk...
oh and you totally changed my mind about claire and her dynamic with carmy. i thought "ugh another mpdg" at first and really got irritated at the writers for her lack of depth and development, but you made me look at her from a new perspective and i appreciate that.
I call her the Snarky Pixie Dream Girl. Love her character. I suspect more complexity is coming, but if not ... well ... right now her story is just an extension of Carmy's story and that's just fine. You nailed it.
I wish we got more Claire but I also don't think she was ever meant to be an actual character. I agree with the "Claire is written like a plot device for the main character" idea. It's not good writing to make a 2D character that's purpose is to show the main characters flaws, I hate when shows do that, especially ofc when it's supposed to be a love interest, because I personally couldn't feel any chemistry or connection between the two characters in season 2, and that's probably because she didn't feel like a character.
i love comparing the interactions carmy has with claire (stunted, staggered, and not saying much at all) vs. carmy with the rest of the bear, particularly syd (much more animated, finishing each other's sentences, wearing his heart on his sleeve). i choose to believe that the writers intentionally wrote claire with an ideal, perfect personality to emphasize just how self-destructive carmy can be, that even when all the external circumstances are perfect for him, he still sabotages himself out of punishment and self-loathing. imo claire was never written to be a viable love interest to carmy, but rather as a 2D storytelling device to highlight the nuances of carmy's grief and mental health (because i refuse to believe that writers that can write such complex female characters like syd and nat can "accidentally" write a female character as reductive as claire). amazing analysis and can't wait for s4 to expand on this idea like you said!
Insane that the same women who are all upset about Claire because she isn't a flawed enough but have no issue with Pete. PETE is the male equivalent of Claire. If men created the Pixie Dream Girl as a fantasy; women created the Inflatable Punching Bag Husband. No matter how hard gets hit he pops right back up with the big smile and the "YOU GOT THIS BABE" sign. He doesn't care that she quit her job and now they are living only on his income. He doesn't get upset that she and her family regularly disrespect him in his own home. He is never impatient or upset that she is always at the restaurant. He has no identity other than Punching Bag
I think the difference though is that Nat just happens to be married to a nice guy who doesn’t create drama for the show, while Claire’s relationship is supposed to be a significant to the main character’s inner conflict. As people they may be similar but as characters they serve very different purposes
Pete isn't the same character as Claire. And I would say we get more depth from Pete than we do from Claire. Pete knows the family doesn't treat him well, but he also obviously has a super good connection with his wife that allowed them to marry each other. He is probably the only normal "family member." So, he isn't just a love interest, he is in the family from the beginning of the show as the in law. Pete is also a normal healthy person, and he is one who the messed up family thinks is a weirdo for being a decent person. It makes sense he is married to the sister as she might be the most normal attempt at healthy in the family lol As the other comment mentioned Claire is for the main character and kind of shows how not ready he is for a healthy relationship with a decent person. I would actually contrast that to his sister who was able to marry Pete and have an okay relationship with him (it seems) for a while despite her messed up family. Her brother isn't fully able to do that and it shows a difference in how their childhoods and experiences have impacted those two characters. I don't think of Pete as an inflatable punching bad, I think his relationship with his wife is not the same as the relationship with her family. I also think Pete literally has more in context history with the family than Claire does, so once again he is more like a part of the chaotic family than just a punching bag husband.
Men didn't create MPDG's as a fantasy. Women did. They only appear in movies with overwhelmingly female audiences. Seeking a Friend for the End of the World had a definitive MPDG. Written by a woman. The MPDG can be found as far back as Jane Austen. It's a female fantasy of being this perfect girl who whirlwinds into a man's life and changes his whole world. Critics want to see themselves represented onscreen as flawed characters. Neurotic youtubers with college degrees want to see themselves reflected onscreen. Audiences want to see a fantasy. And BTW, female writers write males as a Prince, a Prop and a Problem. The Prince is Prince is Prince Charming, simply there to love her; the prop is a sexually non-threatening male like a father figure or a boy or a gay friend to show how sweet she is; and the Problem is the Bad Boy that she needs to get away from to find the man she deserves.
I cannot believe this is a character that apparently gets hate. Although, similarly, I didn't really realize how little we saw of her outside of Carmy's perspective. She is fairly idealized, though I don't know that her personality is a bad match for him.
I think there is nothing wrong with manic pixie dream girl archetype in story. There is no doubt that it's very common for boys/men dream about their ideal love sweetheart & MPDG is practically almost every first or their best young love. Exactly like how ever woman/girls always dream about about their ideal men like a chad loving big bad boy... I am just saying. It's rather weird that almost EVERY women centric romance story/movies/shows are always have such ideal men stereotypes but there is practically zero conversation about it.
I wonder what's the opposite trope? There are some cases of a manic pixie dream boy (The Fault in Our Stars, Titanic), but that's not the most popular one. Then of course you've got some seriously toxic archetypes, such as the hot manipulative stalker and the third-wheeling nice guy duo found in pretty much every YA novel with a female protagonist.
Men didn't create MPDG's as a fantasy. Women did. They only appear in movies with overwhelmingly female audiences. Seeking a Friend for the End of the World had a definitive MPDG. Written by a woman. The MPDG can be found as far back as Jane Austen. It's a female fantasy of being this perfect girl who whirlwinds into a man's life and changes his whole world. female writers write males as a Prince, a Prop and a Problem. The Prince is Prince is Prince Charming, simply there to love her; the prop is a sexually non-threatening male like a father figure or a boy or a gay friend to show how sweet she is; and the Problem is the Bad Boy that she needs to get away from to find the man she deserves.
I really liked your take on her character! Really hope we get to see more of the real her next season, not as Carmy's gf per se, because he still has a long way to go, but to give her story (and this chapter of his life that was their relationship) some closure Just subscribed to your channel! Cant wait to see more of you content also ✨️
I don't see anything compelling about Claire. Someone said they show her like they would a deceased gf/wife, and I agree. She has no umph, no spark that makes me want to know more about her. I don't know if that is because of the writing, the actress, or what. Claire is a basic character that gets applauded for it 🤷♀️. The other characters are so invested and keep acting like Claire is the best thing since sliced bread, but we are never shown that. They had two seasons to show us and did nothing. One of my biggest gripes is how they said this wasn't a show about romance (something along those lines), but then turned around and shoved Claire in for Carmy, who in my opinion, doesn't need to be with anyone and I think it would be way more compelling to see him make attempts at working through his trauma, not pining over someone he gave the wrong number to.
And you know what's funny? The same people who used that as a way to drag Sydcarmy fans are jumping at defending Claire and their "Relationship" It's ironic in a fustratingly funny way.
Because Pete is a compelling character that you want to know something about? Women are upset about Claire because she isn't awful. Every other female character is flawed and crappy and would be a terrible romantic partner which is why female viewers like them but not Claire.
@@thomasolson1154 Yeah you are SO wrong and projecting. VIEWERS don't like Claire because she is UNREALISTIC and a doormat for Carmy. In fact people hate how she's written and not her necissarily. If you actually cared to listen to views that don't suit your agenda, you would come to understand that. Her and Carmy are toxic, he is constantly confused about her and she just takes it. It's so wrong.
@@kimberleywilliams7802 I'm projecting 😆😆 Viewers? You mean women, because it isn't men who have an issue with the character. AS FOR Realistic and doormat 😅😅 Punching Bag Pete who never looses that stupid smile even when his wife is berating him, her family are constantly belittling him he doesn't get upset. When his wife decided to quit her job and just live on his income there wasn't even a discussion. SO your "agenda" that all women should be complicated three dimensional characters who would make terrible romantic partners is keeping you from seeing that Pete is far worse than Claire but you don't see an issue with a man being treated like crap.
I don't understand how you understood the concept of Claire being an idea and still seem resentful over the fact she wasn't more "3 dimensional". The show wrote perfectly all women with complexity, literally all of them, they just cut Claire to a dream like idea of an happiness Carmy is not able to reach at this point.
I was never bothered by Claire, but I do hope we get to see more layers of her character in the next season. I really like the actor and want to see her have more to do as this character.
i mean the problem is as a woman i see myself not only with my issues i see it with the male gaze and the male gender's problems. this is the thing that made me ''pick me, it girl, cool girl, pixie girl'' in the first place. because if i want to survive in this world i need to see myself and understand myself with the understanding of male gender. and sometimes, most of the times you become that shell that protects you from men. And your story start to fade and now you are the someone's version
what you're bumping up against is the panderwall, the one that replaced the previous panderwall. let me explain. before a certain time in pop culture (2012ish?) white girls were good for being quirky and fun (but a little hopeless lol) and gently nudging "Our Hero(tm)" in the right direction. After the Pandershift, white girls became ascendant, glistening, living gods who can do anything, be anything, and act as the North Star to any musty crusty guy struggling with stuff (who should probably just go head and delete hisself over his toxic masculinity if we're being honest). Manic Pixie Dream GIrls have simply evolved into Magically Perfect Disrespected Goddesses.
what pissed me off about Claire is that she puts up with Carmy’s bullshit in a way no living woman would. He literally had a meltdown in the fridge saying that loving her is useless and she just walks away and thanks Richie, crying softly. she never truly gives Carmy shit for giving her the wrong number! she’s just not… real
There was definite glimpse scenes of her crying all night though with her friend (I believe?) in S3. Also, Claire herself said she wasn't the peace in S3. I think next S4, we will see her special character POVs & why a Claire love Carmy in the first place.
I don't think people would care so much about Claire's underdeveloped character if they hadn't made a point to give so much development to characters with even less screentime than her. We had a whole Christmas episode with Carmen's entire family and I feel like I know them better than her. That's weird... unless that's entirely the point. We don't know her cause Carmy doesn't know her.
that's exactly what i was going for! i think we genuinely know as much about her as carmy does. granted, i don't think carmy is intentionally not trying to learn more about her, i just think he's just got too much going on honestly (which isn't an excuse, but i do think he needs more growth). thank you for the comment!
I love when people say that last line because YES! Carmy DOESN'T KNOW HER, and quick note we feel like we know Sydney because he feels like he knows Sydney.
I kinda think her underutilization adds to the very one sided narrative the show gives us Carmy Sees her more as an escape rather than a real individual who could be just as flawed as any of the other characters she’s not given room to be complex because narratively and in Carmys mind she is perfect and exist as a symbol of being “good” in this very hectic, stressful and morally complex story I think her career also plays a role into how we the audience (and carmy) view her she’s a good person and is often praised by carmys family as such but she’s most likely extremely stressed by her job and is just trying to be ok like everyone else in the story but we don’t get to see it because no one is willing to look past her perceived perfection and we (and carmy) often grow irritated or feel inferior too this false idea of her
Thanks for making and sharing this! Claire is a really interesting and compelling character and I hope we get to see more of her story and a resolution to her conflict with Carmy in future seasons. It’s frustrating how a lot of character hate in 2024 still boils down to “woman” and “not my ship”, especially since there are obvious parallels between her and Carmy, but she just hasn’t been fleshed out yet. If anything, people should get frustrated with the writers, not the characters themselves.
i also find there are parallels between her and carmy, which i think would make them good for each other, but i think carmy's perception of her is so one-dimensional that he doesn't even realize how similar they are and could be. thanks for the comment!
@@kiarawilliams2720 i know you were asking the commenter, but i wanted to add in my own 2 cents haha. for me personally, i think i find her potential and her utilization to be more interesting. she stands out a lot because of how she's written and i generally think she has a lot of potential, but i also find that her purpose is to not being extremely characterized and i think in general i find that fascinating (ie intentionally making a character less complex because that's how another character sees her aka carmy not seeing her as complex). hopefully that made sense lol
@@nia907 it definitely makes sense! and i can see your point i definitely think it’s intentional from the writers but i feel like in practice making a character’s writing intentionally shallow just ends up with the character…being shallow. like watching her scenes just kinda makes my eyes glaze over and that’s not something that happens any other time i’m watching this show
just to defend some sydcarmy shippers, I'm a loose fan (if somehow they get together, cool, but I watch the show for the family aspect) and I didn't like Claire in the first place. I didn't even entertain the idea Sydney and Carmy as a potential relationship until like 2 months after I watched season 2, so I don't think it's the most unbiased thing to immediately jump to shipping on why people don't like her. My biggest problem was the very out-of-nowhere nature of her showing up.
hmmm first of all I'd like to say that I STILL don't understand why people hate Claire. I loved her when she showed up. also i don't think she showed out of nowhere, the first season was introducing us to the idea of the bear and to carmy and it was a short season, i don't think they could've introduced her in the first season
@@farahhesham7130 it's like they wanted us to care about her as soon as she showed up. At first I thought "did I miss her introduction? Did I miss a scene?" But we're supposed to immediately believe she's this girl carmy had heart eyes for a decade ago and she just fully liked him back the same amount. It just wasn't a choice that worked for me.
my mom dislikes the idea of syd and carmy together and sees them as strictly platonic, and she HATED Claire lol so i don’t think it has to do with shipping
@@joselocalau123 yeah I think it's a big conflation to say sydcarmy shippers are Claire antis because they don't want her with carmy. A lot of people simply just don't like her or are apathetic.
I absolutely can't stand Claire because she reminds me of every badly written fanfiction I read when I was 13. "Omg, Y/N? She's so awesome..." "I'm going to call Y/N, she knows how to handle this!" Even the scene where Carmy is stuck in the walk-in makes me cringe. She listens to him rant about their relationship being a waste of time and walks off as the center of attention while somehow remaining angelic and kind to everyone, thanking Richie for the evening. "What did you say to Y/N?? You made her cry!" It would be interesting if this perfect person was something Claire tried to portray. Instead she just IS that person. She needs an additional dimension because she's completely flat.
i think the show showing claire as this perfect character is intentional, because that's how carmy sees her. i think all of you claire haters are too harsh on her, literally in no scene was she annoying
@@farahhesham7130 I was just on my phone and saw the notification, so I'll reply right away :D I think her being annoying is very subjective and that's just how a lot of people who watched the show felt about her. It probably stems from the fact that the majority of the characters are constantly raving about how saintly and great a character is that you yourself barely know, so it becomes tiresome. I fully understand that she's written as a tool to further Carmen's story line, but that doesn't mean I have to enjoy it. It feels like the storytelling has regressed in quality. It's lazy. And for a character that's supposed to be a catalyst for another character (Carmen), she took up way too much screentime. There are only so many ways in which you can express "This man has personal issues that destroy (romantic) relationships and lead to (self) destructive behavior" before it becomes extremely boring and repetitive. She served her purpose and now her character has to either be fleshed out or cut out. Not to mention that there is actually so much potential to be explored in her character. Why was she pursuing Carmen so strongly when he basically rejected her? How come she works as a doctor but always finds the time to listen to Carmen and his problems? (Is she keeping her own issues bottled up because she doesn't want to burden anyone?) What was her endgoal in the relationship? I think it's fine if you're okay with her character the way she is but I personally dislike her character because I want to KNOW her. The same way we have received backstories and intimate storylines for almost every side character. And with how much screentime she took up in season 2 and honestly also season 3 I think it's criminal that they gave her the personality of a dead fish.
@@cappuccinobean2442Ironic, that sounds like a reason why the family makes fun of Pete. Because hes shown to be very patient, kind, a little nerdy, and understanding. Which is probably why Nat loved him. Too perfect for the family to give credit for
@@wymg4480 yes, i thought this as well. Cause Pete seems like a genuinely good guy. But the main difference between him and Claire is Pete doesn't feel like a "perfect" character. He's shown almost as much as Claire, yet we understand him a lot more. Pete seems like someone who wants family, he's a tad insecure but he's also a sweetheart so he tries to make people like him by being himself. He's overly optimistic, to his own detriment at times, but he doesn't seem like a clueless person. He knows what the others think of him, but he feels like the type of person whose mantra is 'kill them with kindness', he just cannot be anything else. Overall, his character is very realistic, I know someone exactly like this as I am sure most people do. All this can be said about Pete without once mentioning Sugar, however, I cannot say the same for Claire without involving Carmy. Her entire character revolves around him, she isn't fully fleshed out and tbh the parts we do see of her isn't even enough to be considered interesting by most people. she's just a bland, boring dream of Carmy's.
I tried a couple episodes and I couldn't get into it. my favorite shows of all time are Pushing Daisies, the OA, Sense8, 12 Monkeys, Charmed, Westworld, Orphan Black, The Get Down, Anne with an E, Maniac, Black Mirror, Electric Dreams, Fallout, Marvelous Ms Maisel, Jessica Jones, The 100, etc. (i also like first 5 seasons of GOT, and the new show HOTD.) I watch an obscene amount of TV. I do watch stuff that's just about normal humans living life but they dont usually get to top 10 status. i was just kinda bored or stressed out the first 2 episodes & then i realized i wasnt even following the plot bcuz i was getting so annoyed by them yelling at each other that i tuned it out. 😂
@@marigolden_mariposa the characters definitely can stress you out at times lol. there’s an episode in s2 called fishes and wow.. definitely spiked my anxiety ngl. but those are some good shows! i’ve actually just started watching got - well i’m watching hotd first but so far i’m liking it! i literally just started so i’m only on ep 2 but it’s good! and i love black mirror! i still think about shut up and dance sometimes, it was insane. thanks for the comment!
Ok, so I've watched the show, and maybe I'm interpreting things wrong, but when Carmy and Syd meet, it's like one of those real "meet-cute" kind of things, was I seeing things when I thought that?, I don't know, so when Claire comes on the scene, I'm not surprised an old flame is back in the picture, but then I got the feeling the show runners were really wanted that to be the real relationship, but it feels fake to me. Syd and Carmy are messy, but they are real, and they communicate (well, except for the elephant in the room), but the really try to grow and improve each other. If it ends up that the show runners only want their relationship to just be "good friends" I'm all for that, I hate the idea that people with a connection always "have" to end up together romantically, but secretly I do want it, lol
There was a massive uptick in sydcarmy shippers after Claire was introduced and I don't think it was a coincidence. especially because the anxiety attack scene was interpreted by so many people as this "Sydney br8ngs him back" type of situation. it happened again in season 3 as well where he was stressing and only Sydney's voice cut through the noise in his heads and again (this time inverted kind of) where he and Sydney are talking after hours and there is this peaceful piano music playing but then this soft rock song (I think) starts playing and mixing with the calm music, slowly overcoming it when he's thinking of calling Claire. this could be the specifics of apologizing to Claire may make him anxious, but he's done worse to people in the kitchen and apologized much more quickly.
@@luvulots18 omg thank you so much! i’m literally on my, like, 4th rewatch right now. and i’m definitely tempted to think of something i could talk about relating to doctor who but i’m not sure what at the moment! but thank you again for the comment, alyssa :)
I always think they shoot Claire like a dead wife from a cop film. Totally idealised I do think a Claire episode would be good. Even showing her finding it hard to be the manic pixie dream girl, having to pep herself up into being the perfect girlfriend.
No but an ep dedicated to her day would be so interesting. Like we see a hard day at the ER. For Claire, at her job everything is so important, young female residents aren’t taken seriously in their profession, and a single mistake can cost someone their life. Maybe we could see how Carmy and his problems are an escape for her too.
This.is.it!!! They literally treat her like old family footage of the cop who's drinking his way through grief over his dead wife! Like she's not an actual person. In season 2 and 3, they spent 80% of the show talking about but she was never actually around. She feels like a shared fever dream. Completely romanticized. I just can't root for this made up relationship
@@msandrews87 personally I think the showrunners are very lazy and indecisive. They want Claire and Carmy but they are unwilling to flesh out her character (and honestly with how much people dislike her already, its either too late to redeem her character, or they'll have to put in extra effort). And on the other hand, they want a platonic relationship with Sydney, yet she and Carmy have the most chemistry and are framed in a way that makes them the most realistic for a potential romance. They need to make up their minds. Mostly so I'll know if I should totally give up on this show because I don't like Claire either, esp right now, and I don't like how they keep stringing Sydney along for more and playing games with the viewers.
