Well, you aren’t entirely right about this. You’re right that the oppressed sometimes need to fight for liberation against the oppressors. But you expressed it best near the end of the video, that they need to do it in a way that minimizes unnecessary harm. That’s a very important thing to emphasize. I’m sure you’ll agree that it isn’t justified for people from oppressed groups to senselessly attack people from “oppressor” groups. Like it’s wrong for black people to attack white people just for being white. An important thing to note is that Frisk is a child. They didn’t come to the Underground to oppress monsters, they fell down probably on accident. Granted, we don’t know much about Frisk’s past or how they fell down into the Underground. But they end up alone in a world alien to them, and we do know that most of the monsters attack them first. So, wouldn’t it be justified for Frisk to defend themself? It seems ridiculous to push this “oppressor” agenda onto a child with a stick who managed to stumble into the Underground. They wouldn’t even know about the nature of the War until Waterfall. As for Undyne, her battle theme is called Spear of Justice because the monsters look up to her as a hero, and her actions are just in her own eyes. But this does NOT mean that the game itself glorifies her actions towards Frisk as justified. I believe they are justified in the Genocide route, but not in the Pacifist route and most Neutral routes. The problem is that Undyne attacks Frisk with the intent to kill, no matter which route the player is on. She knows that with their soul, the monsters could liberate themselves, but Asgore’s plan includes waging a war of revenge on humanity with newfound godlike power, with the goal possibly being genocide. Even if Frisk actively refused to harm any monster, Undyne refuses to see them for anything more than the image of oppressive humans that she and other monsters share. Sure, one casualty might seem small compared to the plight of an entire species, but I really don’t think it’s heroic to vehemently try to kill a practically harmless child. On the Pacifist route, she doesn’t acknowledge Frisk’s acts of kindness and mercy as anything more than cowardice and a “saccharine schtick”, and on a Neutral route, she scoffs at the idea that Frisk may have killed in self-defense. I’d like to point to the scene with Monster Kid on the bridge. Monster Kid just found out that Frisk, with whom they were spending time with, was a human all along. So, naturally, they feel conflicted, since they were always taught that humans were the bad guys, but Frisk never did anything to them and they got along just fine. So they try to make Frisk say something mean to them so thet they could hate each other, like they’re “supposed” to. But Frisk can’t say anything mean to MK even if they try, and after MK insults Frisk, they feel really bad about that they run away. But they trip and hang on to the bridge for dear life, while Undyne appears and approaches slowly. Here the player has a choice. If you choose to rescue Monster Kid, they will stand up against Undyne, seeing as Frisk just proved that they were a true friend. MK stands up against their hero, whom they have reverently idolized throughout their life, because they just saw what Undyne couldn’t - that humans aren’t all bad. And Undyne is so taken aback by this that she backs away for the moment. Undyne lies to herself, trying desperately to convince herself that Frisk is the villain. She wants to liberate monsterkind, but she doesn’t want to accept that she’d have to kill an innocent person to do so. But it’s arguably just cruel to paint Frisk as evil to justify killing them, when they’ve done everything they could to be kind and peaceful (on a Pacifist route). And this, I believe, is part of Undertale’s core message: Every main cast member has flaws (yes, even Papyrus), and on a True Pacifist route, you help them work through their flaws. You forgive them, and they forgive you (Frisk) for what humanity had done to monsterkind. So, basically, what I’m trying to say is that “liberatory violence” is only acceptable against a direct oppressor when there’s no other choice: NOT against innocent civilians. Palestinian terrorists target primarily innocent civilians, kidnap them and record themselves torturing them to advance their cause, which is nothing but pure evil. Utterly unjustifiable. I can sympathize with the Palestinian movement for freedom, but not with the terrorists of Hamas. Nor can I sympathize with communist “revolutionaires”, who are merely envious of people better off than them in life, no matter if they earned their well-being through honest work.
I'm not convinced that the narrative given to us by the monsters losing the war is fair & unbiased. Based on the true pacifist ending, we see monsters are not only allowed back up on the surface, but they can even go so far as driving cars & showing public displays of affection if they want. I appreciate you trying to bring a different viewpoint to the table, but I'm going to reserve judgement until we get all the facts about the war, because a lot of what we learn sounds like some serious coping & seething from Asgore.
that is so interesting, because, as a polish kid, my mother taught me that zombie carries a pro-irish resistance message, as well as a pro-liberation message in general. it's almost funny how wrong she was, if it wasn't so horrifically tragic
I see you made the mistake of thinking that every songwriter a) actually has a thought out plan for what they are going to write and why and; b) that they think deeply about the motives that lead to people's actions. Sometimes we just write shit because it sounds good. Unfortunately, a common problem with all humans is that we often retrospectively justify our actions, even if they are contrary to what we may have previously thought. The irony is that most listeners won't have picked up on any messages and as you said, taken it to be an anti war anti violence song using the troubles as a point of reference. That said, thanks for the food for thought. Good vid, worth making.
Suprizingly nuanced video, it's really rare to see. I like how eloquently you explained the difference between an opressive violence and its victims fighting back for liberation, because it's been something that is pretty difficult to explain to people from so-called first world countries with colonial past. They just always assume that both sides are equally as bad if they are choosing to fight. If you are attacked, you should just lie down aand take the beating, otherwise you are no better than the aggressor.
Finally someone has said it! While writing my Masters final paper I argued for the same interpretation, even using Undyne as a frame of reference as well. While studying Undertale I found some academic criticism to a supposed defense of absolute pacifism when it is clearly not the case. I'm glad to see more people coming to the same conclusion.
Man, as a Canadian, I was fooled into thinking this song had the total opposite message. I had no idea about the context behind it, as I thought O'Riordan was talking directly to the British Imperialists about what they were doing, calling them zombies for blindly following a cause that left so much tragedy and misery in its wake. I had images rushing through my own head of Irish mothers being separated from their children, crowds of people paralyzed in the throes of unfettered violence, and British soldiers gunning down countless civilians while ignoring the internal and external voices telling them to stop. I had no idea that what I thought to be a rebel song was so anti-rebel, and after this video, that term seems to put it lightly. I have yet to leave Canada, but I now have this sudden urge to go to Ireland and visit historic sites to learn the full picture, and I am by no means a history buff.
There's one question about all of this; why didn't Humanity kill all of the monsters in the first place as opposed to sealing them underground? Simple, only the 7 human magicians seal them underground to protect them from the Human army tasked for Monster Genocide by the order of the ruling class. Remember that Colonialism and Neo Colonialism is a Political powerplay of the ultra elites who wanted land an resources by any means necessary; I would imagine that a corrupt tyrant see a human monster fusion as a threat to their status, and spread the misinformation to protect it.
Malinchism: I'll use the word more often. 'We, Her Majesty's prisoners' is much better! My grandmother is Irish and I barely know anything about historical Ireland except folklore, the 1600s, 1800s, and 1900s but the systemic persecution of the Irish definitely goes back further than 1916.
The most interesting and sad thing about Dolores is that she is essentially a textbook example of post-colonial trauma. She clearly wanted the approval of her oppressors - and yet never made peace with herself. You don’t drown yourself in alcohol in a bathtub unless you’re dealing with some deep, repressed trauma… sadly that is the face of so much of the children of Éire… as well as many many other cultures that have been crushed by the “civilizers” of the world.
Malinchism… interesting… cultural cringe is was all European cultures are now expected to feel. American, French, even Irish. If you have less melanin in your skin, you must feel cultural cringe - or you’re a racist Xenophobe. 🤔
“The Violence of liberation and not the Violence of Oppression” (14:58) is so fucking profound oh my god. That is a nuance that is SO important nowadays that nobody seems to acknowledge.
this video is so underrated, I can't believe how few views it has!! I first watched it like a year ago and I reference to people all the time, I still hope this pops off and you get the credit you deserve!
I absolutely love this content for its pedagogical possibilities; I’d like to do a close reading of your video with my students, and I was wondering if I’d able to speak with you more about this on one of your social medias or via email. Thank you in advance, and I look forward to hearing from you
Un video que evidencia a los esbirros del capital y del imperialismo, capaces de traicionar las luchas de liberación de los oprimidos. Gran video Camarada.
I've been researching Irish history recently, and I was already suspicious about Zombies after digging into the most recent parts of the conflict with the colonizers. Great video. It's a bitter exercise in fandom. People shouldn't sanctify their favourite artists just because of their talent. They're human like everybody else, and humans are flawed. Dolores wrote some immortal songs but lord was she wrong. She also overlooked a production of an anti-'bortion flick, and later hosted an author panel with hundreds of teens to preach to. However, she insisted that she encouraged them to speak their minds up. Well, what do you expect a young person to say after a 90 minute propaganda movie? You're either pro choice or not, it's not that you support a movement and shame people in the hour of need, just to say you are open-minded. Despite everything, rest in peace Dolores.
oh my god I just finished playing undertale for the first time completely unaware of the story or the fandom and now just casually looking for youtube vids about it decided to click on this one and when I heard the voice I was like PAUL???????!?!?!?!?!??? oh FCK yeah!!!!!
Sounds a bit like how certain sides present or perceive the current situation in the Middle East: Just a random attack by the bloodthirsty locals, please ignore the context of ongoing oppression, it's totally not in response to that...
this was a really good video. i love undertale myself, and as a leftist i appreciate the analysis i wasn’t even expecting coming into this but was somewhat hoping for. great stuff.
arent you appling here the concept of "collective punishment" to every human who falls into the underground? I mean the game kinda adressses this when Toriel leaves Asgore (she was against killing children BTW). This also explains why they adopt Chara and integrate them to the Dreemur family, the monsters werent always this hostile towards humans. They became that way after Asriel´s and Chara´s passing, it wasnt the "sense of freedom" nor the "acknowlegment of opression". It was because the whims of monarch who felt angry at the moment then felt remose for calling himself a Genocide back against humans (His plan is once he gets the human souls himself hell absorb the souls become a god and not even give the humans the chance to live underground but Str8 up kill them) IK you dont have this Knowledge in hindsigth but the new "lore book" Toby fox (the autor of this game) tells us he is against what Asgore stands for and actually calls him "A bad king" Even after all of this.... what did any human to fell afterwards has to do with the war other than, the were born into the most powerfull class, so therefore they should be punished for that? look.... Ik you have a backstory of your own with colonial powers.... I do to Im Mexican I know how it is to live under the USA´s thumb. But the world isnt a ONE ISSUE THING. The world has a lot of thing going for it, we as humans are not made for understanding everything that happens all the time at the same time, so to understand the world we live in we make stories, but sometimes this stories we make cloud our vission and poison our mind into beliving everyone is against us.... so we convince oursleves of our stories and push back against people who hasnt hurt us in any way shape or form: "They were just born into the evil ingroup" so we judge them under that, isnt that opression on of itself, i mean it may not be but is the same logic that justify said oppresion..... I hope you dont had any wrong intentions with this video and that is only a misunderstanding, but understand me when I say (And i do mean no insult towards you). You didnt get the game...... you didnt understand the game at all! I may have some issues with the message of "Violence bad" myself I may agree you on people giving it more importance than it deserves and i may have some "Undertale critisisms myself" But you missed the mark here
the king didn't needed 7 souls at all, one was already enough to make them free, but the king was lost in anger cuz the lost of both of his children. that wasn't a fight for liberty anymore, but a fight for revenge the queen knew that and she broke up with the king and run away to the ruins. Left to Replay had some misunderstandings, but explained very well about the oppressor and the oppressed thing. maybe i'll talking shit, but your 6th paragraph is like black people hating white people only cuz they're white, it is really fkd up. cheers from Brazil.
Now, no offence to Toby Fox, the guy probably had no ill intentions with the game and he seems quite decent, and of course the fault in large part belongs to the toxic do-gooders that were harassing and manipulating people back in 2016, but the pacifist route, regardless of what it was actually trying to convey, still comes off as extremely My Little Pony-like, unrealistic in a bad way and foolish. For the fact that you can just talk it out with everyone and the power of friendship and all of that sparkly lala jazz! That definitely attracted the vile goody-two-shoes. There are times when diplomacy and kindness fail and a more violent, or even extreme, approach is right, and Undertale could've demonstrated that with that clinically insane flower! On the pacifist route, that flower would see you as weak and foolish, an easy target it could do whatever it wanted with and you wouldn't defend yourself, thus it never tried to kill you because it was having too much fun toying with you at times. On the neutral route where you only fought but didn't kill, though Flowey would not see you as foolish, it'd definitely see you as too weak to make the tough decisions. Your mercy would only encourage it to murder and torment the other monsters, ultimately seeking nothing but the satisfaction it got from it, because some are just malevolent, there's no other explanation to it. In the end, violence was the right choice, the flower had to be killed, and Undyne would've been the one to teach you that. On the pacifist route, it all would lead to a final battle where you joined forces with Sans, Papyrus though he probably wouldn't last, and Undyne to kill that flower, just as it was about to murder a bloodied and bruised little Asriel being constricted by its vines. On the neutral without kills route, it'd lead to Flowey outright absorbing the corruption of Asriel, and about to kill him when he was once again a harmless child before you, Undyne, Sans and Papyrus confronted the flower in a final battle. You'd only be saving Asriel if you got there in time to stop Flowey from killing him. Oh, yeah, Undyne, the true hero who uses justified violence to rightfully kill the malevolent, and I think I like her the most for that! The toxic goody-two-shoes sure seemed to conveniently forget about her when they were harassing and manipulating people! Or perhaps the pacifist route was meant to be just a fun-time comedy, considering that the dialogue was like something out of a sitcom. but it had unintended consequences, because you must never underestimate the idiocy, hypocrisy and viciousness of the human species. And now I wanna paint art of Undyne plunging a spear into the back of a giant sadistically-grinning Flowey as it was constricting to death a terrified, crying and bleeding kid Asriel whilst listening to Corrupted Monk phase 2 from Sekiro!
3:20 It's actually explained in waterfall, the humans feared the monsters ability to take human souls, because they couldn't do the same to monsters except if it was a boss monster, then they had a fraction of a second to absorb it. They broke out war to prevent being eradicated by multiple 7 soul god monsters
