The issue is, you should not need to do this at all. Bosch should not be selling a saw that cannot be adjusted to be reliable. It’s a real shame. I had a Bosch table saw for ten years, and for all of that time I struggled with my projects because it did not produce reliable , repeatable cuts. I recently bought a SawStop cabinet saw and it’s like night and day. Even if I had not gone full hog and bought the SawStop, a simple Dewalt would have probably saved me years of aggravation.
Hello Mr. Makes! I was inspired by your video so I did some of my own testing. It turns out that above 5A, the mosfet cutoff occurs at 12.5V. Below 5A and the cutoff occurs at ~8V, like you found. In a Makita tool, this 8V cutoff will never occur because the tool always stops when the 3rd pin goes low, and on the 5Ah, this is always at 12.5V, regardless of discharge current. But this only seems to apply to 5Ah and 6Ah batteries, the 1.5Ah and 3Ah, do not have stand-alone cutoff (I'm not sure about the 4Ah). ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-r1tQwoaCdBA.html
I have tested both my 6ah and 5ah Makita batteries in the same way and both cut off at 12.5v. Maybe they have changed the cutoff voltage within the battery.
cutoff voltage seems to change with current. Less than 5A gives the 8V cutoff seen here. Over 5A gives 12.5V. 1.5Ah and 3Ah packs don't have stand-alone cutoff and rely on the tool to stop when the battery pulls the 3rd pin low.
While shopping for makita batteries, I noticed that almost nobody will capacity-test the battery. It's because not many people have this "electronic load" you have. I bought some 3.0Ah aftermarket batteries, the slim ones that Makita makes with 2.0Ah. These I tested at 55% of claimed capacity. I tested others that measured less than 1Ah, absolutely rubbish cells. On that basis, and knowing what capacity I can expect from the OEM batteries, I concluded that it's NOT WORTH buying the aftermarket batteries, and only the 5.0Ah battery is worth it, having most of the capacity of the 6Ah, but much less expensive. Thanks for sharing.
It Is absolutely shameful from Bosch to release such a faulty product to the market. Could be a perfect and affordable tool but apparently they wanted to save some money and employed monkeys. Would have fired all those clowns straight away. Not to mention quality control folks. Disaster !!!
You do have to spend some time setting the saw up... blade, fence, etc. But once done, the saw is great. Fairly compact which is Nice ru-vid.comUgkxXh-4_3-ZT1fFWP91ZV7iVqzElr0lEb-a I did get an Incra Miter Gauge which takes some setup as well. The stock miter gauge can be adjusted in the miter slot with a little painter's tape... this tightens up the side to side play a lot.
Makita low voltage cut off is built into the tool not the battery. The Makita tool will stop working at a safe voltage to preserve the battery . The battery does not have a built in SAFE (for battery lifespan) cut off.
It's both. Protection is primarily via the battery signalling the tool to stop. Some newer batteries like the 5Ah and 6Ah have an additional layer of protection with internal cutoff mosfets that will switch off if the stop signal doesn't work. The mosfet cutoff voltage is normally 12.5V, but if discharge current is <5A, it will be 8V, which is what happened in this video
EXcept after paying quite a fair bit of money getting these 3D printed, they just dont fit. The holes for the screws don't line up not one of them. The tall flange is too thick , and the guide rails are too thick, after a couple of hours of filing and drilling I gave up and fitted the originals back. Total waste of time and money.
Everybody please STOP immediately discharging your Makita batteries as shown in this video!!! Most brands DO NOT HAVE a proper Over Discharge Protection in their batteries!!! Having started my Makita battery discharge journey here, I also have done this very low capacity test and I regret it. The reason is that Makita like most other brands does not have a real over discharge protection in the battery. The cut off you see in this video is the absolute minimum before the battery is completely ruined. The real over discharge protection happens only with Makita's yellow plugs with a star sign combined with the same thing on the tool side. This way the battery send a signal to the star compatible Makita tool through a third pin connector when it reaches 12V and the tool shuts off the battery at/around 12V, which seems still to low but that's Makita specification and is intended by Makita. Using the battery without the third pin and letting it go bellow 12V can damage your battery even with this last protection around 8V. If you want to use your battery outside of Makita's STAR system e.g. in your own projects like I do, you need a simple Over Discharge Protection with a MOSFET. Nonetheless, Makita's battery system is IMHO the best and using adapters with over discharge protection opens up an entire world of possibilities with this system. Read more here: www.instructables.com/Making-a-Over-Discharge-Protection-for-Makita-Batt/
Hi, I've read your story on instructables and I tend to think differently on the third pin usage. From engineering point of view, having full BMS on battery and not using it - it's just crazy and I simply refuse to accept that in Makita works some bad designer ;) And yes, "the star" Makita batteries have full BMS inside with ability to do the transistor cut off the power under every condition. So those batteries have under/over voltage, over current and over temperature protection (experienced all of those conditions with my set of tools). I've create a video with chines knock-off of the Makita battery (it had no any kind of protection, despite what it advertised) and also did BMS replacement for proper one with all protections (yes, they are available in china also) - but never posted it - so I could have a good look what is inside of all those original and not batteries inside. Anyway, the third pin I would call a grace notification for the tool that battery is close to be depleted. I assume that some kind of tools are better to shutoff itself, then been suddenly left without the power. So the device can shutdown itself properly finishing in known state (best analogy would be shutdown of the computer on power outage with UPS - UPS devices also give computer know, when they are close to be depleted, and if the devices won't shutdown itself - it will be cut off later anyway). And finally, yes the cutoff voltage on Makita BMS is extremely low - but those are professional tools and battery are not expected to last long, and what is more important, under heavy load the voltage read would be much lower then actual (not in my test - my load I would call mediocre) - so cutting it at 12V would be pointless as the capacity would be still there. You can just check how big voltage drop is on battery when you discharge it 150-200W and then check when you disable the load - I bet those would be few volts. ps. but yes, I agree those type of tests are not healthy for batteries - that's why some guys do those and post on YT - so others don't have to do it again ;)
@@sauronmakes...956 I know where you coming from and I did not intend to question your intentions or skills. I only go by the facts and honestly nobody can tell for sure why Makita is doing it this way. One thing we should take into the consideration is the fact that we are talking ONLY about the battery by itself. For Makita it's not only about the battery but the entire application. We don't know about Makita's business policies, governmental regulations, future products etc. Maybe Makita is doing the same thing what Tesla does, means programing the BMS the way it keeps the real capacity between 20-80% for longevity and battery health. In this case you would be right and discharging to 8V will probably not damage the battery! I am not an engineer, but I think by doing the Tesla trick you could over discharge your battery without damaging them since you are not completely depleting them! We just don't know and because we don't know I would go by facts and e.g. not discharge bellow Lithium's 2.8-2.9 per cell or at least Makita's STAR specification of 12V per pack (3. pin). We only would have certainty if somebody would take his brand new Makita battery and charge/discharge it completely as shown in your video, let's say for 500 times and then compare it to a normal STAR abused Makita battery. I am definitely not going to do that 😉 However, I appreciate your video and your response and hope to see more videos and tests in this regard. Take care and thanks again👍
@@sauronmakes...956 I found this video, so i could decide whether or how to use my makita batteries with other electronics safely, and I'm not yet fully conviced if the batteries themselves has LVP/Low Voltage Protection. People on the internet seems to disagree alot on this matter, is it in the batteries, in the tools, or is it a combination of the two. It wouldn't surprise me, if the LVP is in the tools, or a sort of handshake between the two, but as you say, it would be stupid to not have it in the batteries, I say no. Not from a business standpoint. Makita(probably) doesn't want consumers and hobbyists to make their own adapters for other tools or electronics. They can and will only vouch for their own ecosystem, so you'll buy more of their products. They think only about money in the end. For my own DIY electronics, I might end up using a bought LVP-board, and set cutoff artificially high, to protect my batteries :) TL/DR: I liked your video, and I hope we all find an ultimate solution to this discussion :)
Hello @BingoBongoMan (and I guess @magnuswf). It turns out you are both right, but also both wrong. The confusion comes from Makita LXT being different not just in time (star and non-star, and every other smaller modification they've made), but also by battery. The cheaper batteries (1.5 & 3Ah) don't seem to have stand-alone protection with a mosfet in the battery that can cut the power independently of the tool. The 5Ah and 6Ah do have this and will cut out usually at 12.5V, but at ~8V if the current is less than 5A. Where you are right is that Makita doesn't really use this cutoff mosfet and instead relies on pulling the 3rd pin low to stop the tool. If the tool stops within 500ms, then the mosfet stays on. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-r1tQwoaCdBA.html
grace but please consider changing the size of the thickness of the stroke that goes into the groove otherwise it will be difficult to file down the guides you made. Thank you
Great! Thank you for sharing :) I will use this system and some of the 3d parts you shared for my small shop. PS: I am amazed that this video has only 60 likes as i am watching it... missing some zero's!
That is a cool design, thanks for sharing and demonstrating its build. the device reminds me of the first Alien movie when hunting the alien in the vents scene, a similar valve was used, of course bigger and more dramatic operations. I imagine the STL file can be scaled up for larger dimension pipes?
Ciao, sono un iscritto al tuo canale e possiedo il tuo stesso banco sega, avrei bisogno di migliorarlo, come hai fatto tu. Mi potresti aiutare x gli acquisti dei pezzi, x cortesia, grazie
Hi Sauron, Thanks for sharing your valuable contributions. I believe Bosch has a few things to learn from your knowledge, skills and experience. I am interested in purchasing a kit of the parts that you described in your video. Would you be interested? If so please let me know? I would be happy to pay for your services. Thanks.
Hi Sauron, many thanks for your useful tips. I have had one for several years and found the saw to be quite pathetic and frustrating when trying to make repeated accurate cuts. Blade goes out of alignment easily and has no real engineering method to accurately align it and as you say the fence is not even remotely adequate. It greatly lowered my opinion of Bosch who did not adequately respond when I tried to address the issues. My advice to anyone considering this site saw is don’t waste your money and time unless your want to make random rough cuts. A track saw is a better option.
Im interested in their discharge behavior. Does one provide more power than the other? I know thay they use different 18650 cells in the 5ah than the 6ah. I think the 18650 Samsung cells in the 5ah have a higher discharge (higher current) rating than the ones in the 6ah. Correct me if I'm wrong. I care about the ultimate power they can provide a tool. There are obvious power differences in say like the Makita XWT17Z impact wrench between the 2ah, 4ah, and 5ah. I'm curious if the 5ah outperforms the 6ah in that application, or is it vice versa?
I’ve found the fence annoying so, inspired by your video I ordered a bearing. When it arrived I went to look at the saw to see how to mount it. Given that it was sticking on the block that would need to come out I wondered if a bit of candle wax would help. I put some on and it worked perfectly, as I close the lever to lock the fence in place it moves slightly to always end up parallel to the blade. So useful video but I’ll just keep the candle handy.
Bosh should be providing a kit to fix this free to their existing customers, it is completely unacceptable and obvious design flaw. After reading reviews this is not a table saw I will be purchasing.
I think minimum cell voltage cut off is supposed to be open circuit. You get voltage sag when the battery is putting current out that lowers the apparent voltage. If you leave it a couple of minutes and check the pack voltage it should be at least 10V absolute minimum, more like 12.5V, but ideally ~15V, open circuit.
Great idea. Much more creative than the standard blast gate shown here. Thanks for sharing. By the way, is the iris mechanism disturbed by fine dust particles?
This is what happens if you skip the third pin, which is crucial. Over discharge protection is there all right but only in set with Makita power tools. This also shows the danger of using any 3-D printed adapters. Makita batteries are designed to work with Makita power tools not just any random crap someone's imagination makes him plug into LXT.
New batteries (with "star") does have built in discharge protection, older batteries (without "star") did not. That's why some tools claim they are not compatible with older batteries. Third pin is for temperature. Other pins (small connector) are used during charging only.
@@sauronmakes...956 Maybe you could monitor the third pin and see if it does indeed switch off at a reasonable cutoff voltage. The batteries definitely have a microcontroller so there's no reason they can't signal the tool to switch of under many conditions (per cell under voltage, per cell over voltage, under temp, over temp for example). Just a little more reverse engineering is in order since unfortunately the behavior of that pin is not very well documented publicly. I can easily imagine that initially the third pin was only used to monitor temperature but as battery tech improved makita started using it to signal other issues as well.
A while back I researched how power tool battery under-voltage protection works, focussing on Makita. I remember reading that the reason the third pin is used as opposed to the battery having under-volt circuitry directly on the pins is that it would increase the internal resistance and result in a lower max wattage and higher wasted energy. This means that some of the knock-off batteries in pursuit of cheapness set the third pin as on and rely on low voltage cut-off. This can let the cells discharge not only below what is damaging but also far below what is safe, allowing the potential for internal shorts.
Hi Sauron. Great video. I have the same machine and of course, went to look at the fence immediately. Mine is a much older machine but the same model. Mine has a small black nylon block where you installed the bearing and also my fence has no wobble on the locking side. It is possible that they moved the manufacturing of this machine to another company that wasn't as quality orientated. Anyway just thought I would share that. Thanks again for a great video.
@@Якобсъ There is absolutely tons of misinformation online about this, including from uniformed Makita staff. As you say, the protection mechanisms don't just sit within the battery but also within the tools/chargers. I wish that Makita would publish openly the circuits/schematics behind their batteries and charger/tool electronic protection but I figure they consider it valuable as trade secrets to prevent clones.
@@beardedchimp I've done some testing and mostly figured out what's going on. 1.5Ah and 3Ah don't have stand-alone protection and rely on the tool stopping when the 3rd pin is pulled low. 5Ah and 6Ah packs do have stand-alone protection, which is usually 12.5V, but is ~8V when discharge current is under 5A. I don't know where the 4Ah sits or if things are different in newer 3Ah packs (mine is 2017) or older 5Ah packs (mine are 2020 and 2022). ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-r1tQwoaCdBA.html
Hi, short awnswear - no I don't. Longer - I did not see the point in it - since 3d printing is to make everyone be able to that (having 3d printer of course ;)). I thought that's to much trouble with shipping (and price of shipping would probably exceed product itself). I prefer to invest my free time somewhere else :)
They where charged and discharge in Makita device - so yes, they where used before test. But this "believe" about charging/discharging before reaching full capacity has no confirm in battery chemistry, it could be more to scale fresh BMS for battery then do anything with LiIon cells.
