Tried the B distributor but found the reissue of Phillips Spark Advance tec made in 1930s by Nurex better. Petronix ignition replacing the points makes for reliable and more forgiving application. Use the common A distributor. Like the old look but not old time consuming, fidgeting and frustrating issues of which some get satisfaction overcoming.
The other day I wanted to know how to test a capacitor with my kaiweets meter but ended up troubleshooting it down to the cap without it. Today I decided on digging into model a ignition and found your video... 2 for 1!!
I have a lot of rotational slop in the point cam. LIke 3/4 of an inch. When I stop the engine, it is usually in the middle of that slop, not at one end or another as folks say. I am getting a lot of coughing and vback fire as I press on the gas peddle.
My first thought is, you might have a centrifugal advance device installed in the valve chamber. Have you had the car a long time? Have you had the valve cover off?
Wanptek DC power supply from Amazon. They make different variants, get one that does 10A. Not just useful for generating 6V power, you can also put variable amps through an ammeter on the bench to test its accuracy and see how much resistance (heat) is generated. www.amazon.com/stores/Wanptek/%E4%B8%BB%E9%A1%B5/page/5D244B99-B3EC-417B-876F-85907F678E2E
The original Ford spec was design when using the pin method on a new engine would be set 5 deg. Retarded (ATDC). This was for ease of starting with starter and safe method hand starting. Also the advanced would be 10 deg. for e every 1000 RPM or 30 Deg. at 3000 RPM. I have noticed that each notch on the advance lever is approximately 4 degrees movement. My old Sanp On timing light does read retarded. Hope this helps someone. On another note if you use a Mellory distributor you can set the total advance and curve and have a preferred base timing degree. Hope this helps someone
This is a modern reproduction of an early speed head, the Winfield 7:1 "red head" - so called because it came painted that color. The Winfield design moves the spark plugs from over the intake valve to between the valves, which means the stock plug connectors don't work anymore, and if your plugs are tall you'll get arcing to the spark advance control rod. It's a powerful head but for my next car I'm switching back to a stock-appearance head.
Considering the timing is controlled by a lever it doesn't have to be precise, just close. With the timing lever all the way up and the plate all the way retarded, set the #1 piston to what you consider 12*-15* ATDC. Then adjust the points cam to when the points just start to open. What needs to be precise for optimal performance is is the points gap, best measured and set with a dwell meter to 52*. One degree of dwell = one degree of timing. I never tried one on a positive ground car before but I'm sure there's some way to do it. Starter speed is enough to set them just recheck after it's run a bit.
Maybe you could answer a question for me please? About TDC. Traditionally, like..for the last 40 years, ive had to rotate the engine with #1 up, AND on compression stroke. So, sometimes depending which valve was about to open, i had to roll it over again to be on the correct stroke. However, since i got the Model A, and the manual, nothing ever says compression stroke. Can you help me understand why this is? Thank yoj
On later engines, the TDC mark is typically found on the crankshaft pulley. As you know, this pulley makes two revolutions per one four-stroke cycle, so it will be in the same position on the compression and exhaust strokes. That means you always need a second step to determine which stroke you're on. On the Model A, the TDC mark (actually a divot into which a pin drops) is on the camshaft gear, which only makes one revolution per four-stroke cycle. This allowed Ford to place the mark only at compression TDC, simplifying the task of timing the engine. Make sense?
@alexiskai that's fantastic thank you. Makes perfect sense, not sure why i diddnt recognize it. Thank you so much! I googled it and came up empty, and just kept going over it in my mind and got nowhere. Thank you for the videos as well, very helpful. Also going to do king pins on my 1930 so that should be interesting.
@@allhartfidelity Sounds good, make sure you review Tom Endy's advice on the subject. www.santaanitaas.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/King-Pin-Geometry.pdf
Great video, you explain the procedures very well. Armed with information from your great video i am going to do this job with the help of a friend. Much more confident now. Thank you very much!!
I wish I'd gotten farther on the rebuild by now! This engine is still sitting on a stand in the workshop. Too many projects. Hopefully I'll get to it before the end of the year.
Well done. For me, part of the enjoyment of driving my Model A is advancing the timing myself. Just like the manual brakes and steering, it's part of the experience.
There are a lot of people who want the authentic 1928 experience. Myself I want more like a 1936 experience. Luckily there's room in the world for both.
There are lots of ways to remove the engine and that is one of them. My goal in the video was to establish that you can, if necessary, remove the engine and transmission virtually intact by yourself. Leaving the pedals attached did not impede the operation.
I have used the modern lower plate along with a modern upper plate set up on a lot of distributor rebuilds for a while, but the lower plate I use is steel. I find that the modern condenser's I get with these plate set's aren't too reliable, so I install the modern brass tab contact for the lower plate part closest to the points and the modern condenser wire on the "outside" so the condenser can be changed without moving the brass contact tab. I know that di-electric grease is not a lubricant, but I smear some on the lower plate where the brass tab contact's it and never had a problem with lower plate wearing out.
I assume you mean the di-electric grease isn't *conductive* - it's a great lubricant. The problem I've always had with the "wireless" lower plates is that the brass tab pushes down on it, and after awhile the flange fatigues and only makes contact with the tab at its highest point. Glad it's working for you though. Maybe greasing the tab helps in some odd way.
You say in order to set initial timing on an A to B timing, you need a B valve cover.... don't you mean a B timing gear cover? The B valve cover won't fit the A , but the B timing cover, with it relocated timing pin will.
6:1 is the highest I would go with this accessory, and I would be listening for engine knock under heavy load. If you get knock, I would re-time the engine with the spark lever 1-2 notches down and then either put the lever back at the top full-time (move the entire timing curve down) or be prepared to do so if you hear the knock again. But my understanding is that people do run these with the Snyder's 6:1 heads and it's usually fine.
You're being too critical. Get it close and move the lever while driving to set the timing. That accurate of TDC is only needed if you are running distributor with a built in advance. If you are just toss the timing light on it - rev it to max advance RPM and set it with a timing light.
Hi Alexis. Great video. Thank you. Is it possible to separate the engine from the transmission and only pull the engine out, leaving the transmission in place? I just need to do an engine swap. Thank you.
Yes, removing only the engine is quite common and somewhat easier. I chose to show the harder version. To remove the engine, you'll need to support the transmission with something - a jack, or blocks - and then disconnect the bell housing from the flywheel housing. As you pull the engine forward and up, the splined main drive gear should slide out of the flywheel and release the engine from the transmission. Good luck!
I made them, using Model T parts from Snyder's. They carry something very similar, pre-made, as part #T-5029-BS. However those wires are a lot longer. I bought the wire and the brass connectors separately, cut the wire to the length I needed for each plug, and used a large pair of pliers to bend and crimp the connectors.
The only one you maybe need to put a little oomph into is the cam screw. Otherwise hand tight should be fine. I tend to cut the parts where I'm attaching screws - first because I'm sort of a clumsy guy and second because the overhead camera means I would need to hold the workpiece at an odd angle so you could see what I was doing.
Very well done video. Clear concise instructions on rebuilding a B distributor. I believe your explanation of the purpose of the condenser and the production of the spark is just a bit off, if I may. The longer dwell, the time the points are closed, allows the primary windings of the coil to draw more current creating a stronger magnetic field. The condenser absorbs the the energy, or arcing, that would occur as the points open. The arcing would interfere with the instantaneous collapse of the magnetic field of the primary windings that induces a much larger voltage in the secondary windings which directs that energy to the spark plugs. If the condenser is weak the points will eventually burn from the arcing and the spark will be much weaker or non existent as the primary magnetic field only partially collapses or not at all. The B condenser has more capacitance because the longer dwell time means more current flowing to the primary windings and more current trying to arc across the points. I'm looking forward to more of your videos.
@@alexiskai I must have cut to your video on Condenser Testing and Theory that you mention at ~ 32:14. In that video, when you describe the function of the condenser, I believe you may be conflating its function with the capacitors in a Capacitive Discharge Ignition. In the Kettering system the sole function of the condenser is to absorb the energy as the points open so they don't arc. You are correct in that no current flows into the condenser because it represents a higher resistance than the closed points. Once the points begin to open the current flows into the condenser instead of arcing across the small space between the points. When the current stops flowing into the condenser the magnetic field suddenly collapses and produces the high voltage spike in the Secondary windings and delivers the spark. So the condenser really only there to absorb the arcing and assist the collapse of the primary windings. One reference on Kettering systems is here: www.ratwell.com/mirror/users.mrbean.net.au/~rover/ketterin.htm.
@@thomasdejohn9347 I think I see what you're talking about. So the point of clarification is, does the condenser act *only* to prevent arcing at the contacts. I think that is by far the most important action, but it's not the only thing going on. If that were the only factor, it wouldn't really matter how "large" the condenser is, i.e., how high its capacitance. But that's not true in practice. Experiments with other Kettering system engines have shown that there is an optimal size (in practice, a range of sizes) for a condenser for a given engine. The condenser should be large enough to prevent arcing, but no larger. The reason is that a larger condenser will provide a path for the current for a longer time after the points open. The Kettering system is a type of tuned circuit, meaning a circuit containing an inductor and a capacitor. When the points open, current resonates (oscillates) back and forth between the coil and the condenser. The amplitude and frequency of the resonance are correlated. As the condenser gets larger, it absorbs current for longer, and the "back-pressure" voltage with which it feeds current back into the circuit decreases. This causes the amplitude and frequency of the resonance to decrease. This is important because the amplitude of the resonance is what creates the voltage in the secondary winding. Higher amplitude = higher spark voltage. There's a great demonstration of this in antique outboard motors that I will link to below. On p. 6 of the linked document, you can clearly see how the size of the condenser affects the spark voltage. That's why I mention the "back-pressure" effect of the condenser in the video and I think that's what you were picking up on. wrcoutboards.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Part3_Sizing_Condensers_Correctly.pdf
@@alexiskai Thanks, I read that article and yes your reference to a "back pressure" effect of the condenser is what I found misleading. The article you've cited explains that the collapse of the primary magnetic field generates several hundred volts in the primary and tens of thousands of volts in the secondary to cause the arc across the spark plug gap. Those several hundred volts generated in the primary would also arc across the point gap if it were not for a condenser of the right capacity to absorb just enough of that energy to prevent the arc on the points but not enough to lower the primary voltage amplitude enough to adversely affect the secondary voltage. There is essentially no discussion of a "back pressure" or any "feeding back" into the circuit. The article concludes " . . . that the condenser size is FAR from critical; anything large enough to quench the arcing cross your points is all you need."
@@thomasdejohn9347 He doesn't discuss it in print but you can see in the oscilloscope diagrams he includes that the resonance is there. How could it exist if there weren't a reverse voltage across the coil primary winding caused by the capacitor discharging? This section of the Wikipedia page on LC circuits gives a nice summary: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit#Operation I agree with you that dissipating the arc at the points is 95% of the job of the condenser, but insofar as I was trying in that video to give a reasonably complete description of the electrical activity, it would be misleading not to discuss what happens when the condenser discharges. I might have given it too much prominence.
To clarify my question about calibrating... I'm referring to the position of the knob. If you adjust it to the point that the 2 electrodes touch each other, where is the knob reading? Is it all the way to the left of the red section? Other?
On my unit, the two knobs are slightly offset, so they don't come together point-to-point. When they touch, the knob reads in the center of the red zone.
You should always zero out torque wrench back to zero after using if you're not going to use it for a while. Also, you shouldn't use a torque wrench to loosen a bolt or nut. Just saying.
Remix this and make it an intro into ignition systems and capacitors -- you should have 300k views by now for this quality content, just needs some rebranding (it's not really a Model A Ford video, that's more of an intro)
Yeah but then I'd have a bunch of classic car guys saying I got the ground polarity wrong. 🤷♂ Thanks though. Once I finish my series on engine disassembly and inspection, maybe I'll circle back to this one.
Good video but you should have just saved yourself some time and aggrivation by removing the carb, manifolds, starter and water pump. This stuff only gets in the way. Also, separate the bell housing from the flywheel housing and pull the engine. If the transmission has to come out do that afterwards. Putting the new/rebuilt engine back in is also easier with the transmission and bell housing in the car. Just my opinion.
Why would it save me time to remove all that stuff? Then I gotta spend time unbolting it, and I might run into other problems. Most of the bolts are rusty and I'd rather fight them on the engine stand than in the car. And I don't have a transmission jack, so if I leave the transmission in place, I have to support it while it's in there and then wrangle it out of the car by myself. Other than the starter, none of those things caused me any aggravation by leaving them on.
New Model A owner here. This is all really good information, even though I am not using an auto timing device, this is teaching me what advance I should be aiming for. Looking forward to Part 3!
Hi alexi, i just got one of these horns that was not working, i re wire the field poles with new wires, but motor still doesnt work. When i connect it to the power supply it makes a litte waving, rotates 1 or 2 degrees and stops. Have any idea? thank you
@@gastjjs In that case I'm really not sure, it might be a wiring problem, which I'm not experienced with. Try searching for other horn rebuild videos, I think there's one or two that talk about the wiring.
The two diaphragm gaskets are the usual cork/neoprene material and can be purchased from any Model A vendor for about $2. The oil is 3-in-1 oil, but this is such a light-duty application that honestly you could use anything. Oil should be applied at the felt pads where the motor shaft rotates.
@@khriscamacho1212 Sacramento Vintage Ford is pretty close to you www.vintageford.com/sect_search.cfm?LineName=Model%20A&Line=Model%20A&Category=Horn&StartRow=21&PageNum=2
