I just did the math, turret strength is based on resources. Meaning the higher the beryllium extraction rate, the more water you feed it, the faster it can shoot. In a defensively ideal scenario, a turret is fully walled off and is fed 15 water per second and provided 7.8 beryllium per second. In this case, such a turret can take on 8 or more stells in a fight. 2 or 3 of these can fully stop an entire wave of 15 stells+ 15 eludes but requires 45 water per second and 22.4 beryllium per second which is insane. With 3 turbine condenser you can mix water from 2 of these to feed an electrolyser and provide 5 water per second to the turret for a roughly 50% speed boost, this means it requires about 4.5 beryllium per second. 4.5 beryllium per second can be achieve with 3 beryllium drills drilling from the wall. This is not taking into account the power efficiency since you are likely using more power than you can provide. A fully loaded fully waterer beryllium breach walled off with beryllium walls and having the entrance to the base walled off with power fully provided can take on a swarm of 9 stells at once. Or 15 waves of 2 stells or 7 waves of 3 stells. However in a real game you would have much less water and beryllium and you would be running at less than 100% power efficiency and you usually barely take on 2 or 3 stells in a fight. This is assuming the turret and entrance are completely walled off. I would conclude that the turret vs unit at the start if the game argument would fall down to the richness of the locale. The richer the area the stronger the turrets compared to units. Although there is also a time factor where overtime your army gets stronger but since your resources are the same your turrets dont get stronger over time. Make a map with say 5 starting turbine condenser nodes and 16 wall beryllium tiles and see how tough a turret will become.
You can also mix and match turrets to make them more potent. For example placing a diffuse near the base entrance and a breach next to it will make it hard to run inside and will deal some decent dmg. But unfortunately you are right, right now an elude rush seems inevitable. Your best bet likely is to split tanks to cover more ground defensively or to place turrets inside and near vital structures. In the example where you showed you are runnig circle around the enemy, when you were in the top left corner at the end, the enemy could have split his tanks into 2 and stopped you from running away untouched. But you did do a ton of dmg already so i see your point.
When comparing the cost of towers and units, have you also considered the time factor? For example, units cost more than just what it takes to make thrm, because they need time to make. In that time, the enemy is acquiring resources and can use those to build more towers. Have you also considered the power cost? I think just comparing the units themselves and the turrets themselves is not the whole equation. And while adding these factors will not change the 1 to 1 interaction. It will affect things like when you added units as a means to compare the costs. Perhaps you shpuld consider less units vs 1 turrets which then will affect the outcome. You also have to consider the power equivalent of things. For example how much power its costing to create 1 unit vs 1 tower. I think the best way to consider unit and tower cost is through power. For example, tanks cost some amount of beryllium per minute to produce. Lets say they cost 80, i dont remember exactly. 80/min is about 1.15 roughly per minute so about 2 drills so roughly 18 power units. Now consider the power cost of silicon. And multiply that by time to produce. Because time is a factor, the more time you spend creating a unit the more the enemy has to create more turrets. Now consider the power cost of turrets, and also consider the time it takes to create a turret, meaning the time it takes to for example mine 150 graphite. It doesnt matter how much drills you have and yes it will affect the time needed but it will not affect the (time x power) equation since its using more power. Grab the time x power equation of producing 1 unit and producing 1 turret and then reapply the test you did. Im sure offense will still win as i believe it should but likely things will seem much less overpowered or useless. The reason i am bringing this up is because turrets are dirt cheap compared to units they dont need extra power to produce like units and they take less time to make. Thank you for the video, i believe it brings the correct conclusions into place. But i wpuld apprexiate a more thorough calculationa when mentioning a sort of apple to apple comparison.
I think the responsibity for fairness is on the mod author. They should either make it give a warning to all on the server that is being used, or they should somehow make that bonus info available to the opponents as well.
well, there will always be authors trying to give their players an advantage, you can't blame the cheating problem on the ones making the cheat client or the ones using it as it doesn't fix anything
@@justenoughrandomness8989 I can get people making cheat clients for big games, or streamable games, or PVP focused games, but cmon. There isn't a need for that in Mindustry.
I still operate the servers, yes. I just post less because baby. It's still competitive; so it depends on how well you can manage in a... spicy environment.
@@larofeticus i mean, I'm not very good. I played hex in another server for like 3 games and lost all of them, but I aspire to get better! Thanks for the motivation.
my schematics are very out of date currently. the server discord has a schematics channel that is quite active, other people there will be able to show you better stuff
You pointed out what was considered cheating spot on. I'm not too competitive but trying to get everyone to use the exact same tools seems extremely frustrating
Cool video but it made me sad to not see the final push! There's no way you need those final factories you're building. The final 5 minutes of glory is spent just watching some blocks slowly build, occasionally checking the map. If it was me, I'd be watching the kill in slow motion!
I think that seeing where someone is going to send their units is 100% cheating. In many rts games this information is absolutely massive, and generally shuts down a lot of potential plays and ideas by allowing people to have nearly perfect micro without any of the game sense or unpredictability of vanilla micro.
the only mod i use is a map making utility that shows the colors for all the teams >6, so that i could choose team colors for the server that don't look too similar to each other
@@social-imperium Testing Utilities But i'll repeat, unless you're making maps or doing some other obsessive-compulstive investigation of low level mindustry details, it's not going to be useful for you.
Hey laro, do you have a link for schematic? Because I've been suffering through low efficiency power and etc and also units in pvp,campaign and costume😢.
being able to see enemy resources, mouse movement and rts commands gives you extra information that you should not have access to and makes playing the game easier (similar to x-ray or wallhacks in other games) and since x-ray and wallhacks are considered cheating I don't see a reason to not categorize these mods as cheats
Yea 100% agree. It's unfair advantages so it's cheating. That being said, I kinda think schematics are borderline cheating. The most fair PvP in this game is no schemes, all skill and practice.
@@googlygoo4575 imo schems are the reason why mindustry is so unique compared to other rts games rather than everyone using the same structures (eg: all zerg players use the same hive structure in sc2) each player can get slight variations on their structures (eg: my early game core to 7 flare vs viro's core to 8 flare) and have it affect their gameplay as a whole and since schems are a built-in feature anyone can just spectate 2 or 3 rounds and steal all the schems required to get started
@@Arzee4991 Oh yea I get you for sure. Schemes make the game stand out tremendously among other rts. But imo, anything you can do outside of a match that has a different affect within it has potential to be unfair. Just for the simple fact that one person may have access to more than their opponent. And there's nothing they could do about it other than be more prepared before the game even started.
