Join me, Sailor Smurf, as I venture into the world of marine professionals! The Yacht Rigger has allowed me to trip, stumble, and fumble my way through their boatyard as I journey into the world of marine pros. I hope you join me as I seek to learn everything I can from them.
Great video, thanks! Another note: many add loads on their DC circuit over time and forget that it might lead to overloading the main DC switch installed at the boat factory. This is a serious fire hazard.
I'm tending to install 50 or 100amp circuit breakers one for each battery, before going to the battery isolator. Thinking of battery hold down...I try to imagine what would happen if the boat broached on a wave and did a roll over... you do not want a battery smashing around... Lithium batteries have slightly different voltages to lead batteries... so you need things set up to handle that... Most trouble with lithium batteries is from over charging or running them totally flat...a new trend to look after lithiums is to only charge up to 80% for maximum life.
Yes, with regards to battery tie down, the ABYC Standard for lithium batteries is there should be no visible movement and consideration taken for security in a knockdown. Beyond just the batteries, the only thing I want to be worrying about in rough weather is the crew, the sails, and the course! And you're spot on with the comment about voltages, and this is where a lot of people go wrong in doing things like hooking up internally regulated alternators directly to their lithium bank or quite literally dropping in lithium batteries and not changing the settings in their chargers to lower voltages. For sure the trend is towards lower voltages, and most manufacturers are recommending around 14.1V now, whereas they may have been more like 14.2V a few years ago and 14.4V before that. Our obligation under the ABYC Standards is to follow the battery manufacturer's recommendations as one would think (or like to think!) they have performed the appropriate tests to determine the safe operating envelope and optimal charge profile. The only comment you made I question is whether the circuit breakers you are using on each battery meet the Ampere Interrupting Capacity Standards. Cheers for the great comment!
The recommended charge current for those batteries is 15-50A according to the manufacturer. There are three in parallel here so 150A is the maximum *recommended* charge current and what we have set up this system for. Disappointing… we could put in more power. The ABYC Standard E-13 for Lithium Ion Batteries tell us we must set the system to follow the manufacturers recommend charge profile though. You should not operate ANY electrical equipment at its maximum rating regularly.
This boat took about 70 man hours over the course of 5 days. There are a few things done not shown here as well. Generally speaking, the boats that come to us for ABYC compliance work range from 30 to 80 hours of work depending on the size and age of the vessel and the nature of the issues. In this boat we also upgraded the shore power and added start battery maintenance chargers in that time amount which weren't compliance issues but good upgrades nonetheless.
I bought a first Gen LED replacement bulb for my existing masthead anchor light fixture. It began to fail immediately, becoming dimmer over the course of a few months. The LED wasn’t cheap, and had a lifetime warranty. Fortunately, the manufacturer supplied a new bersion, which has worked extremely well. I don’t like going up the mast on a regular basis!
Glad that worked out! Not all are created equal. We have had to replace LED navigation lights from well-known but not top quality brands for people that were only a year old. We mostly sell and install Weems & Plath at our shop and so far haven't had a single issue out of any of them, but we haven't been using them too long so time will tell.
Call me old fashioned but there is no way I would install lithium batteries in my boat. One cell going into thermal runaway can destroy the boat and occupants. I see the attraction with the high energy density but I'm not risking it.
Okay, if you insist… you’re old fashioned! 😂 Seriously, with current technology the risk of thermal runaway of a properly installed marine lithium system is infinitesimally small. There is a FAR greater risk of electrical fire from a loose wire connection somewhere. It is really important though to have some of the protections discussed in this video to limit current and voltage from ever reaching a point that could initiate thermal runaway in LiFePo4 batteries.
You put class T fuses on the battery, good. Then you go direct to the Victron Lynx which has ANL fuses in it? There are way to many connections in my humble opinion. A DC breaker off good quality is golden rule. Fuses are to protect your wires.
The batteries are connected to a Victron Power In which looks like a Lynx but it does not have fuses inside. So each battery has a Class T fuse and then the entire bank has a fuse (a Class T) that is appropriately rated for the battery switch, another ABYC Standard.
100% correct and that is covered in the manual that is given to our clients. You can’t cover everything in a 30 minute video and troubleshooting is not covered in this video.
We had to let them on our boat but we got rid of it the lithium batteries and went back to the good old interstate water lead batteries doing much better than lithium plus a hell of a lot cheaper
We sell some of them but we almost exclusively only install Victron in the yard at this time. We are always exploring other brands looking for someone who can do it better. We are working on a video right now where we stress test one of the new Epoch models. We are testing a few other brands right now too. Stay tuned!
good information , thanks . I have a cat with 2 motors and fitted a Victron DC/DC charger to port engine to charge 3x 100 ah Li batteries, how can I be sure that the other engine wont overcharge the batteries when both engines running ? Do I need to put another DC/DC charger on the stbd engine ?
A lithium battery is more than just the cells inside. We have opened up many batteries to examine their circuitry and for sure the Victron's are better than average - not to say there aren't other great brands out there, but there are plenty of not so great ones too!
@@FrankTheYachtRigger agreed. I was just pointing out something that rarely gets mentioned: the chemistry. People have bought cheap, lithium ion batteries and lost their boat to fire more than once.
Excellent video and information. I do not use the products about which you speak but they are top of the line. My boat is a forty foot entirely solar with old school lead acid flooded cell electrical storage. The premise for my over 35 years on the project is, most of its components are from box stores for motors, batteries, solar modules, controllers and appliances. The idea for the premise is KISS, Keep It Simple Smarty. The descriptions, language, parts, videography and content of your video are spot on, detailed and most accurate. If I were to convert to the latest technologies with an enterprising marine group, I would be on your doorstep. Thanks for the fine work and the use of quality high tech products.
That's exactly right! Not putting in the proper equipment and protections on a boat is for sure cheap! What is the peace of mind that your system will blow a fuse or shut down rather than start a fire worth to you?
Outstanding and as it should be, however, you are the exception in the industry, where it should be the norm. Well done and continue to forge ahead with excellence.
Thanks for the video. Great points! What do you do for grounding the AC and DC systems together? Where do you do that and what are the concerns? We have a catamaran so two engines which also need to be grounded. I have not been able to find the central ground connection on our boat and I don't want to create ground "islands" that can be separated from the ground circuit. What are your thoughts? Thanks!
ABYC Standard E-11 says if you have an AC and a DC system on the boat the AC grounding bus shall be connected to either the engine negative terminal or (more commonly) the DC negative bus. Usually this is done near the electrical or distribution panels with a single wire. It's probably green or green with yellow stripe if you have one. If you share the boat model there's a chance I can tell you where to find it.
@@FrankTheYachtRigger Thanks! Yes, the boat ground is green with a yellow stripe. The boat is a 2018 Fountaine Pajot Saona 47. The DC is in the port engine bay and the AC is in the starboard. But, the boat was commissioned by Atlantic Cruising Yachts and they moved the AC panel into the salon. There is a main DC power line that goes to the area behind the NAV station. I'm guessing that is where it is tied but an F16 has less wiring than what is going on there. Since I'm repowering the boat (batteries and inverters) I just want to make sure I'm not creating any ground islands. The DC ground need a good cleanup. Thanks for your help! Franny
Followed this to the end and I’m happy to say my Catamaran is good to go, I’m an electrician but not trained in marine. If you have 46,00 volt I’m your guy, that said I learn something every day, this day was no different. Thanks. The lesson for people out sailing offshore is, “ there are many types of electricians out there, most are not marine trained. Currently 10 years into a circumnavigation, anchored in Thailand.
spare fuse good idea. In this Environment not wraped is not nice. Over time Oxid will be on the surface of the fuse that will be a resistor in the fuse holder. Solar: not with you. Because of bypass diodes inside the panel the disadvantage you point ohg is history. When you work with "12V" panels (36cells) and a single panel for your Victron charger it is not correct. Victron wants 72 cell per string in a 12V battery system.
Some damn FINE work here! Documentation and everything. Great reading on those looooooong nights(& days) in the dulldrums. And now that you've taught me everything, I'm going to start my own marine electronics business 😁 Then I'll undercut you and steal all your business 🤔🫡🤣 👍👍👏by the way
I have never seen a fuse in between each battery, even on million-dollar CE A-rated boats? The rest of what he did is not "Lithium on a boat" its just batteries on a boat.
CE is the European standard. ABYC is the US recommendation. The fuse at each batteries is a recommendation that is going to be implemented, we just like to stay ahead of the curve.
Interesting take. Our margin on Victron products is lower than other brands you are probably referring to, so there's actually a financial disincentive for us to be Victron salesmen. ReLion has one of the best margins out there for us, which is why you see those pushed a lot at West Marine, etc. Yet, we still mostly use Victron because time and time again they just work and don't give us problems we experience elsewhere. So yep, I'll be pushing good quality products to my customers every day!
Lithium Iron Phosphate. Remember that not all lithium chemistry is the same. These are different, and a lot more stable than the battery found in a phone or electric vehicle.
Great job! Was it just me or do you also think the ABYC lithium standard seems catered entirely to battery manufacturers, rather than installers? To me, it seems extremely lax in so many ways, in that they didn't want to potentially exclude particular manufacturer's sub-par designs (i.e. their board members). ABYC has done a lot of great work bringing standards to a historically unregulated industry but this latest standard feels fraught with conflict of interest. For example, the particulars that make Victron the best lithium system around, far exceed the ABYC minimum standard...yet many installers will only install Victron. Hmmm...
The ABYC Standards are MINIMUM recommended safety standards. We typically exceed them. To us, the single biggest issues out there is that the standards are voluntary and people are unaware a lot of the tradesmen that they could hire to work on their boat have no formal training or familiarity with the best practices.
I share your sentiments on the regulation catering to all brands. Not many people know about the board member as you mentioned and I felt that this was a little sided when it came out. But in the end I’m happy with how it is. As installers we can advocate and draw attention to the recommendations and show how a certain brand will rise above others in meeting the ABYC suggestions.
What a great idea! I needed to do bearing work on our rudders but the yard uses a trailer/bridge deck lift that doesn’t lift high enough and they did want a hole dug in their yard. This would have been perfect
Sorry got to chime in .... @5:14 you are talking about the Relion vs Victron charging ability. You said the Relions can only take 50A max charge and that the victrons can do double that. In fact Relion recommends 15-50A charge for the RB300's but you can charge up to 100A. Also the Victron states on their spec sheet up to 400A but reccomends less than 150A for their 330Ah packs and less than 100A for the 200Ah packs. One of these days boats will quit screwing around with 12V like it's the 1950's and move to 48V.
I think you hit the nail on the head, and as you point out it is nuanced as they throw several numbers at you. ABYC Standards say to follow manufacturer recommendations. The *recommended* continuous charge current for the ReLion in question is 15-50A. So, when we tell the Cerbo the maximum amount of current we want it to allow to flow into a ReLion, we tell it 50A per battery, as this might be sustained for hours on end to bring the battery from a low state of charge to a higher state of charge. Meanwhile, the Victron batteries (as well as several other major brands) have a higher recommended continuous charge current (150A for the closely comparable 330Ah model, as you noted) so we are more comfortable setting the system for a higher charge current with those batteries. I agree on the 12V! We have so much ability to dump a lot of watts into batteries these days with large solar arrays and high output alternators that the amperages on 12V system are getting too high. At our shop, we mostly install 24V and 48V systems, and only do 12V if we need to keep the budget lower. We have been installing 48V systems on catamarans with 130A alternators on each engine and DANG those things produce a lot of power! There's quite a few videos on our RU-vid channel showing those. Thanks for watching!
Great video! Is there a source for the beautiful battery/fuse bars? Also, I noticed the fuse holders were not secured. Is that compliant? Also, my batteries each have a rating of 250a continuous discharge but 800a 1sec discharge. I can find class T fuses up to 400a. What amperage would be recommended? (12v system, each battery 460ah w 250a BMS’s) Thanks!
So, this is a lot to discuss over RU-vid, but the size of the fuse is determined by the size of the wire and where it is located (in an engine or not, bundled with other wires or not) - it is not determined by the battery size. Then in some instances the fuse cannot exceed 100% of the ampacity of the wire, and in others it can exceed the ampacity of the wire but only by a certain amount. It's quite a lot to get into here. In the example in this boat, the battery cables are 2/0, not in an engine room, but wrapped in split loom (which is a derating factor) so the ampacity is 231A. We used 200A fuses on each battery although 225A would have been acceptable as well. We also have to do a calculation using a formula provided by ABYC to make sure the cross-sectional area of our copper bars are apprioriately sized as well. FYI there are Class T in larger sizes than 400A but not from the traditional marine brands.
Thank you for taking the time to respond!! I used Ancor 4/0 tinned so ~107mm sq. In engine compartment. I assume the conversion chart would adjust for solid bar vs multi stranded. I was hoping there was a source for the contoured bars. I could bend, drill and wrap them but they certainly won’t be as pretty! Thanks again.
@@tracyoliver5504/0 wire in an engine room with split loom has an ampacity of 265A and you cannot exceed 100% of the ampacity on a battery so that would call for a 250A Class T fuse.
We're looking forwarding to getting our first batch. Nothing too revolutionary in them, just a good evolution, so not expecting many issues with the first batch. Mostly excited about the 24V 300Ah size being adding. I wonder if they will release a 48V version down the road.
@@FrankTheYachtRigger these batteries coupled with the new GX ability to add a second bank will make adding capacity a much easier problem to solve where space, weight/balance and other constraints make adding more batts a poor choice (think aft and to one side in a monohull, or in one hull on a cat). Do you have any idea if individual cell voltages will be available through VRM on the NG batts or BMS? My kludgy BLE sniffer approach is a poor substitute for the info I get through VictronConnect on the boat for each battery but it is mostly a “nice to have” remotely data issue, not “need to have.” Temps, though, can be “really should have” data in the winter. The low temp charge protection (ATC circuitry) has worked well, but it would be nice to verify. Not a FLA problem!
Really interesting video, thank you. I appreciate how you are able to walk through not just what needs to be done but why it should be done. For me, this makes it make sense and helps me to remember. Also, you almost lost me at the beginning when you talked about having a choice in marine electricians.... not really the case for us North of the Chesapeake but man, I wish it was!
In that very unlikely event it would be a good idea to press OFF on that RBS switch on your way to getting in the tender or life raft - whichever you can get in faster- and get away from the boat ASAP.
Is there a source for the battery/fuse bars? Also, on this video they seem to be just sitting on top of the batteries unsecured. Is that compliant? Thanks.
@@tracyoliver550 We make them here ourselves and we do sell them but we have not yet put them on our web store yet for shipping outside Tampa Bay, but I will ask the web team to get those up there. The Class T fuse holders are secured to the batteries both with the tension from the copper bar but also a lot of VHB tape on the bottom. Let me tell you, those things aren't going anywhere! ABYC Standards are very specific about the movement of the batteries and the security of the wires, but amongst the 6 ABYC electricians on our staff here we can't think of any Standard which would make them non-compliant. It is secure, and that is what the ABYC is trying to ensure so it is absolutely meeting the spirit, if not also the letter.
The FAA has tested 24 different chemistries of lithium batteries at their facility in NJ. They put a torch to a cell and heated it until it thermally ran away. Then watched, 23 of the chemistries generated enough heat that that it caused the cell next to it to runaway. LiFePO4 did not generate enough heat to cause the next cell to run away.
