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I hate the fact that I'm so late to this. I love these pitch accent discussions. From that old video you showed, it sounded like you noticed that there was a slight difference in sound between the mora of words, like the "お" and "か" in お母さん. However, because you didn't know about the concept of PA at the time, you misinterpreted that sound difference as a difference in stress rather than pitch, which is understandable since you were thinking about it from the reference point of English, a very stress-focused language. I wish people would have a more nuanced take on the importance of PA. It's really not THAT important to know, but it's also not negligible. As far as I'm concerned, it's not the scary bogeyman of Japanese that beginners often make it out to be, and it's certainly isn't "adding an extra layer" to the language. It may seem like it is when you're under the impression that you have to memorize the specific pitch pattern of every single word, but trying to do that is as foolish as trying to memorize the kun and on readings of every single kanji. The reality of studying PA is far less cumbersome, as there are smooth and streamlined ways of learning it that don't require much, if any, additional effort or time. It's not a conscious process for the most part; you mainly just have to train your ears to hear it and get used it, and let your brain do the rest. You may need to memorize a few patters at the start to get the concept of it, but once you learn to hear it and recognize it, your brain will internalized most of the pitch patterns for you automatically as you get exposure to the language. The earlier one does this in their learning, the easier it is for them in the long run. Training oneself to hear pitch definitely helps in various ways. It's not just for making your Japanese sound "perfect" or any superficial reason like that. While it does help one to sound more native-like, the true benefits come from your comprehension abilities. Knowing pitch makes it easier to hear and distinguish between words when you're not yet used to full-speed sentences. It also helps with cultural input, as there are many jokes, puns, and references all over media that are heavily based on pitch differences, which helps to amplify your immersive experience. There are other benefits to, but I think I've made this comment long enough lol.
I love you George. But I notice that ALL guys who have been speaking Japanese for like 20 years are almost enraged by the idea of pitch accent. I REALLY don't think it's a problem to learn from the beginning. And, I'd like to say - the FIRST time I heard about it - was from YOU. You pointed out that 人 isn't HIITo, it's hiTO. Don't worry about it to the point of quitting, but, just be aware of it.
Also, learning AFTER you have learnt to speak Japanese is a terrible idea. I know people who have tried. It's like having to relearn everything. But if it's just on your radar from the beginning, it's a big help. Edit: it's definitely the least important of the skills to learn
George 先生、you liked the comment but at least take the credit for being the first person I ever heard talk about pitch accent (although, you didn't call it that).
I know this is a bit weird/wrong, but I always remember あげる with "I gave you" because they sort of sound close あ(I) げ (gave) る (you). I know it's terrible, but somehow helped me remember あげる
When we really get down to it, it's really "intonation", and that has probably been known about for hundreds of years, and is in every language on Earth. Those who say that Japanese has no stress, and it's all about pitch are wrong. And those who think that English just has stress and no pitch changes are wrong as well. Both language - in fact, all, as far as I can imagine - have both pitch and stress. And pitch doesn't make a language a "tonal language". Just look at "AWEsome". "AWE" is said both at a higher pitch, as well as with more stress. In the Japanese word "oKAAsan", "KAA" has both a higher pitch and more stress. Japanese may be a bit more pitch-oriented, and English a bit more stress-oriented, but in the end, this idea that people believe they are newly discovering has fallen under "intonation" for hundreds of years already.
Japanese isn't "a bit more pitch-oriented", it's extremely pitch-oriented. The idea the Japanese has stress and isn't all about pitch isn't inaccurate, but it is disingenuous the way you're framing it. There is very little stress involved in Japanese speech, and it primarily only applies to speech with strong emotion for emphasizing purposes. Outside of that, Japanese words don't inherently have stress differences. It's pitch differences and intonation that matter.
@@jpnpod8277 It's not disingenuous at all. If you compare Japanese to English, it Japanese is a bit more pitch oriented. If you compare Japanese to Chinese, Japanese is a LOT LESS pitch oriented. In both English and Japanese pitch matters little in the grand scheme of things when it comes to being able to understand what a person is saying. And even in the "oKAAsann" example in this video (as well as all of the other words that his cohost mentioned, and many more besides that), there is also stress, not only pitch.
@@Rationalific Again, it's not "a bit more" than English, it's A LOT more than English. And no, only George added stress to the words in that video because he was trying to make a (very wrong) point about the stress in Japanese words, explaining the sound differences from the reference point of English. In reality, there is no inherent stress in Japanese words. The only time stress is involved is when there is emphasis or emotion.
Yeh nah George - I think you were explaining emphasis (or de-emphasis). Forget about it 🤭 As for Matt vs Japan - hmmm, some troubling videos out there about him. I just wish Dogen would open his mouth when he speaks 🤭
I was definitely talking about an aspect of pitch accent. But I completely didn’t see the full picture. It’s like I discovered one color of the rainbow and thought I saw all the colors.
George, I love you. I watched George and Keiko and all your other shows back in the day and you helped me learn Japanese so much. So glad to see you're still around and producing content. I do think pitch accent is important if you want to sound good in Japanese and I'm focusing on it now, but that's only after having become fluent in the language unaware of it (like you). Honestly if you're already fluent in Japanese and can easily hear and reproduce the pitches you can nail 90% of pitch accent within a relatively short period of dedicated study, with the other 10% being all the exceptions and rules for combining certain words which matter less and less as they get less and less common.
Thanks George! I love the idea of editing in real life conversations and having some kind of starting scene for every video. Keep up the awesome work 🎉
Hey Sensei, this goes outside the content of the video, but I need to tell you. About a week ago I flew to Los Angles with my family, I live in Chile so it was a 12 hours flight, and in the seat right next to me there was a Japanese man, I started speaking to him in japanese and this was my first time interacting with someone in real life in japanese, the day before the flight I had completed book 5, and I can safely say that I understood everything he said, except for one word 「天文学」(which I asked him in Japanese what it meant), and I was able to express myself using the grammar and words that I already knew. He was going to Japan so LA was only a connection. Once I arrived I saw plenty of japanese people in the city, however everywhere I went i only spoke in spanish, it seems like almost everyone in LA speaks spanish. I wanted to speak to some Japanese girls, one in specific is probably the prettiest girl I have ever seen in my life, but I am kind of afraid women 💀, so I did not drop a single word to her, a shame since they probably have not seen many latinos speaking in japanese. Anyways, thank you so much Sensei, for all the lessons, and teaching you have given me in these books, not just for Japanese language but also for my life values. <3
Such a great experience. That girl will haunt you for a bit. But I’ve also been too nervous to talk to Japanese girls. There will be others. Just remember most people are just as excited about making new friends as you are and are just as nervous. Just make sure you don’t make them feel uncomfortable since there are a lot of creepy guys out there. But if you are speaking Japanese to them I think they will be pretty excited.
I think there is a threshold. Even with my own unawareness of pitch accent while speaking it’s never been an issue. I’ve worked as a simultaneous interpreter, met with countless Japanese record labels, been on Japanese TV all with my “unrefined” pitch accent. I argue that 99 times out of 100 it in fact doesn’t matter.
I think this is missing nuance. The importance of PA really depends on what one is using the language for, and I don't just mean speaking it. I'd argue that being able to hear and understand pitch gives one a more immersive experience with the language and makes it easier to parse sentences, but it's not problematic for most people if they don't know it.
When i do anki, I purposly take time with every word, so I try to remember the kanji, write them in the air, maybe find synonym words, make a sentence with it etc etc. If I do that, it usually sticks, if not well I still made sentences in japanese and improved my kanji. Win win whatever happens :)
Did you know that the Chinese version of Mina No Nihongo has pitch accent markings in the vocabulary section of every chapter? There’s just a single page explanation on how to understand them at the beginning of the book. Doesn’t look like enough material for a whole course. :-? Interesting video. I agree with your core point. That it increases difficulty, and that in turn can cause people to quit. In my opinion most self learners are motivated to be conversational as quick as possible. Pitch Accent doesn’t help with that. On the other hand, I would expect it to be taught and tested in a comprehensive course, and at universities. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it is my understanding that in the US and EU that doesn’t happen. In my opinion it seems like many Japanese textbook creators think it’s too hard for westerners. It feels like those well intentioned Chinese tutors I encountered that say “Don’t worry about tones.” Sure I can make some quick distance without them, but eventually I’ll have to go back and learn them. Otherwise, I’ll have to live with the impediment that missing piece puts on my language abilities.
I think if you didn’t teach pitch accent to Chinese people, who are masters of tones, it would actually be strange. For Chinese people I would argue that not showing pitch accent to them would hurt them.
@@japanesefromzero That makes some sense, and has a more positive viewpoint than my theory. 👍Next time I go to Seoul I'll try and find a Mina no Nihongo and see which theory it supports. Hopefully yours.
My Japanese courses taught by native Japanese speakers in America do correct us when pitch is wrong and they show the correct pitch in the vocab notes. I do think the pitch adds unnecessary difficulty for non native speakers.
@@GoBeyond4Balls That's cool it's available to you. Do you think they over emphasize it's importance, or spend too much time on it? Is it a university course, a language school, or something else?
@@JeremyCarman university course they don’t spend a lot of time on it but just about everyone is getting hit with a mou ichido around 5 or so times a class.
I had no idea about this drama. Cool find with the 2002 video, but I think you can just ignore dramas because they never end and they only grow in size. Please please ignore that stuff going forward, I promise you everyone who's here for JFZ agrees with that.
Really, the general debate should argue whether matching an accent matters, not only pitch accent. This goes beyond just Japanese. I think matching an accent matters. If one has the goal of talking to a group of people, then one should speak in a way that helps the group understand. But accent isn't critical! Deliberately focusing on accent results in time not spent on the far more important tasks of listening and learning vocabulary. If Krashen's input hypothesis holds true, then good accent comes from days of listening practice. So, pay some awareness to accent (in general), but not too much.
I have a theory; most Japanese learners who defend Pitch accent study are between 15-25. In that age, they are trying to form an identity, find a place in the social hierarchy, and be part of a group. Thus, they take anything, be it music, movies, anime, games, or even stuff like Japanese leaning methods to form their idea of self. As they have more free time, they end up in Matt's channel and AJATT stuff. Here is the issue; they make it part of themselves, and believe that their way is the only and best way. So when someone who just want to learn the language comes and don't do 15 hours of immersion per day, neither have an anki deck of pitch accent core20k, they find the opportunity to do some self affirmation and projection of who they are by giving reasons of their beliefs. "I will speak perfect Japanese, and so should everyone because [insert here reason to justify perfectionism], just like Matt" It is just like the teenager groups who base their identity and style by justifying the superiority of certain music genre, be it punk, rock, rap or emo. And then making it a 'cult'-ish subculture which magically disappears once they get to adulthood
I defend PA study, I follow Matt's channel, and I am not between 15-25, nor do I identify with PA or believe that my way is the only and best way and project that onto others. I condemn anyone who does so, but I think the whole PA debate needs to be discussed with more nuance. You don't have to be obsessed with it, nor do you have to denounce it all together. There's a middle ground to be had here on how one should go about dealing with PA.
Pitch accent is just a matter of saying things the same as natives. If you ignore how you hear every other person speak, I guess you can mess it up. But ignorance is ignorance
@@koopanique He tried to overcharge gullible people, and an interview was released in which he mocked people who would pay that over-inflated price. He basically exposed himself as not a very good person. George on the other hand seems to be a genuinely decent dude
