@@ringersmadchamp The SE74 works just like the SE8C. If you want true signal logic, you need JMRI and block detection. But if all you want is turnout position indication, you can skip the SE74 and just wire the signals to the switches on the tortoise or similar.

@@jimworcester981 Perfect. Thanks for the fast response!

@@fourbypete I appreciate the comments, but not exactly sure that I see your point. I have set up blocks on two large layouts and then implemented signaling. I have not experienced a problem such as you described. I am wondering if maybe you are using insulted rail joiners to effect the block definitions. In our club layout I didn’t use any insulted connectors, but rather used a Dremel tool to cut gaps. Thus, the blocks are set precisely where I want them and are not limited by any specific hardware.

@@jimworcester981 No, I mean when creating the layout on the computer to match the actual layout.

I can’t say! I’m not familiar with Command Ex

When it comes to using the dispatch function, I have say good luck. I did get a train to run automatically but only after many hours of trial and error. It is a very complex operation. It looks like you didn’t set up direction sensors and that is causing the error. You will just have to experiment. I would suggest you turn to the “JMRI User’s group.” You will get more help on this topic there.

@@Fer-mu3yq We have bought a number of signals from “We Honest.” Sounds funny and somewhat un-American, but the prices are very low and the quality, while not the best, is certainly acceptable given the price!

@@jimworcester981 Perfect! and for controller the signals what hardware do you recommend ?

@@Fer-mu3yq I use the Digitrax SE74 which controls the signals and can also act as a decoder for 4 turnouts. In addition to the SE74, you will need some type of computer program to provide the logic for signal control. I use JMRI. It is free software, very powerful, but also somewhat intimidating. I have several videos showing how to use JMRI.

Lately I have been using the “We Honest” signals. They are acceptable, if not quite as detailed as other brands. However they sell for less than a third the price. Also, they are readily available while other brands are often on back order! I think they are all made in China! You can order directly from their website or through EBay. I’ve done both. For deciders, I’ve used Digitrax. Both the old SE8C and the newer SE74.

I’m afraid I know nothing about NCE. I have only worked with Digitrax since I got into DCC. The BDL168 sends loconet messages to JMRI. I think that can be independent from the command system, but am not sure!

Without going through the video, I don't remember what "sensors not working correctly" you are referring to. I have encountered a couple of occasions where the SE74 would re-boot to it's original state without an obvious trigger. We suspect that there was a power surge, or someone accidentally playing with "programming mode" when they should not have done so. I did not go through the sequence you mentioned. If the situation presents itself again, I just go in and reset the CVs. Overall the system works well. It is just complicated to figure out how to set it up.

Thanks! Glad it helped

Thank you! Glad the videos helped you. I plan to do some more videos soon. I recently dismantled my old home layout and am in the process of building a new one. I’ll have many opportunities for more “how to” videos.

Thanks. Not sure what reference you are looking for, but I am currently using signals I bought from “wehonest.com”! I know! Crazy name, but they are inexpensive, of good quality, look good and work! I’ve used them almost exclusively on our club layout. They also are on eBay which is a little easier to work with. They have good customer service as well when contacted by email.

Thanks! iPhone 11

@@jimworcester981 Is there away we can have a Video meeting? I am just getting into the Logic part and would like you to see my first attempt is correct on signals masts. Maybe also how to set this up for dispatcher with all signals being RED and the dispatcher controls the signals. Never done this until now.

Yes! I think so! I would have to play with the set up in JMRI to answer for sure. I think you can do it on the page where you define a given signal head. Right now I don’t have the ability to test it. As soon as I can fool around with it, I’ll let you know. It also may require using Logix!

I have only fooled around with running trains from another location within my local network. I have not tried to do it from another geographic location outside my local router. You'll have to work on that yourself!

@@HumancityJunction it becomes simple after you do it 20 times. But the first time? Not so easy!

I think I need more info. Which switch machines are you using. With some, you can click the box in the turnout table to invert the turnout. But that may cause other problems.

@@jimworcester981 I am using the DCC CONepts switch machines. Using address 197, it reverses the thrrow within the turnout. I did do some playing last night and found an invert button on the sensor info. I will try that to see if it does what I need. If you want a video idea for another JMRI focused video, I really want to put an on/off track power button on my panels. I know about the jython scripts, i just cannot figure out how to connect a script to a sensor button.

Hopefully the Invert button in the Turnouts Table will accomplish the reverse without re-wiring. Actually, you should only have to move one wire on the switch that is thrown by the switch machines. Move it to the other contact so that the circuit is closed when the switch machine is in the other position.

@@jimworcester981 I got it all setup and miraculously the sense wires are all correct. Not exactly sure how/why that worked. But I am having an issue where when I select “onesensor” some of the turnouts stop working and the turnout and sensor get out of sync. I am going to Google search the issue, but I am thinking I might need to set a delay on the reporting.

@@jimworcester981 I just learned something. When on Monitoring, it listens to the LocoNet bus and can read back the sensor state. That is why on Monitoring, they were always correct. But then on onesensor, when it was actually using the feedback sensor, any turnout that had the sensing reversed, was now confused and not moving. When I go back to the layout, I need to try the invert sensor on any turnout that doesn’t work when set the sensor to “onesensor”. That’s my one new piece of knowledge for the day, time for a nap now :)

Thanks, Frank! I have not made such a modification. The spread sheet I use is intended merely to keep track of which switch numbers have been assigned and to which signals.

Glad it helped!

Yes. The terminal strips are the easiest way to connect the SE74 to the signals.

I'm not sure what "instructions" you are following. In my opinion, blocks should be defined based on operational considerations. A stretch of track between two turnouts would be one block, unless it could contain two normal train lengths, in which case it could be split into two blocks. In my opinion and on the layouts that I have wired, each turnout (including double slips and any fixed diamond crossovers) should be a unique block which require it's own feeder and block detection circuit. This provides the most flexible situation for future use of "routes" and automatic train operation, since each turnout is part of two separate routes. The only other possible arrangement would be to include the turnout into the straight block approaching the throat of the turnout. However, I really believe that turnouts should be in a block of their own. As for the use of plastic rail joiners: I avoid them! I prefer to use a Dremel tool to cut a gap in the non-common rail at the point I want to create the block division. The track needs to be firmly mounted on both sides of this cut. This process allows a much more flexible placing of block divisions than allowed with plastic joiners at the physical track junctions. For example, I may not place a signal right where the physical track is joined and I like to cut the block division at the point of mounting the signal mast. As for having several turnouts placed together at the entrance to a station, it might be best to include two or more turnouts into a single block. That is best determined by the operational needs. As for a crossover between two mainlines (two turnouts connected with the diverting routes connected) I believe these need to be split into two separate blocks, with either a plastic insulator or a gap cut, between the two turnouts. This is because that if one turnout is blocked by a train sitting across its mainline, the other turnout doesn't show up as blocked, even though there is no train going through the crossover. I hope this explanation is clear enough to help you with your layout.

Glad it helped!

Sounds like JMRI is not talking to Loconet! Make sure your connection to Loconet is hooked up to both the DCC and the computer. Reboot the computer and reload JMRI. If those don’t fix it, turn on the Loconet Monitor, then turn off the command station, turn it back on and watch for a bunch of activity on the Monitor. If you don’t see anything, I think it’s still a problem with getting JMRI hooked up to Loconet. My email is jimwor@earthlink.net

@@jimworcester981 Thanks for the prompt reply. I’ll try again tomorrow and see what I can discover. I forgot to mention earlier than when I restarted JMRI, I got a whole load of error messages (one for every section I’d programmed).

Well, those error messages are suspicious. I’d really have to see them to be able to start troubleshooting. It is usually a simple error in your work somewhere that can cause a whole string of errors. I would suggest that you save to different files every time you make some new changes so that you can always return to a system that worked before.

@mpeterII, thanks for your comments! I can see the logic you are using to arrive at that signal placement. I can even see that it might be a better solution by using fewer signals. However, it would take some Logix conditionals to accomplish a complete signaling solution. For example, if you put 22 A1 & A2 in place of 21B how would you handle the situation where turnout 21 is thrown (ie. set for the crossover)? You want to stop a train moving from left to right along the lower track before it reaches a turnout thrown against it. Thus, both of the signal heads, 22 A1 & 22 A2, should be red. You can't accomplish that with the signal logic in JMRI if you try controlling the two signal heads with either turnout 21 or 22. The JMRI logic would always have one head showing green: No matter which TO you use to control the signals, if either is thrown for the crossover, the top head would be red and the bottom green. Thus, you would have to create some Logix conditionals to make them both red if TO 21 is thrown, which is easy to do. The same thing would be true for the other half of the placements that you suggested. I think this just shows that, with a complex interlocking situation, there are a number of ways to skin the cat! The way I presented it in the video was the first one that came to my mind. However, I like your solution because it uses fewer signal heads. Either way, you have to make up some Logix conditionals to make the whole complex work correctly.

@@jimworcester981 You already showed how to do the logic with a crossover set against a route. While watching, I just figured that it would be a simple addition to use the same condition on both crossovers. I did notice that you'd already used up all the available spaces, but the new signal placement would allow you to combine blocks 1011, 102 and 1012 into one, thus saving two conditions. Similarly, blocks 2021 and 2022 should be combined.

You are correct! I think I am just biased to using more, rather than fewer, blocks to allow for more future flexibility. I use block detection to operate crossing signals/gates and that sometimes requires unique combinations of block occupancy. If you ever start playing with automation, more blocks are usually better so as to make things happen automatically and in the correct sequence. Again, many ways to skin the cat!

I think the oldest that will work is an iPad Air with software version 12 or newer. The problem with older iPads is that Apple quits updating the Software at some point and then they won't work with the newer software protocols. I'm sure that an iPad 1 will only be useful as a throttle.

Thanks, unfortunately I can't install anything on these ipads

OK! I'll give you that one! But 90% of model railroaders are NOT engineers nor do they spend their time working with "digital devices." For those of us who have enough knowledge to get into trouble, things should be written left to right! My digital computer keyboard puts the numbers left to right! The decimal system can be read right to left, but how many people read "25" and "5 and 20?" (That was all in jest 🙂) However, this is not! User manuals should be written so that people of ordinary, maybe slightly above average intelligence can use the material so published. Digitrax has made science out of writing their manuals to be treated as "from one engineer to another engineer!" Engineers are the only ones who can decode them! Sorry to harp on that, but when a sizeable portion of the model railroad family shies totally away from installing and operating signals on their railroads because they don't understand the first thing written in the device manuals, I find it a significant deterrent to the sale of more equipment! That was the basis for my deciding to do a series on the SE74 and how to hook up and make the signals work. Thanks for your comments!

@@jimworcester981 Agreed! Hope I didn't cause offense, I just couldn't help myself. I bought a Block detector and just could not figure out how to wire it. Digitrak's support is absolutely non-existant. Finally figured it out but spent more than an hour doing it. I guess that's why I got a level of amusement from your situation. Misery loves company and all that.

Glad it helped you!

I’m glad it helped you. I hate to think we all need to individually reinvent the wheel. I wish that manufacturers would provide the info, but that’s just wishful thinking. So it’s up to us to pass along what we each have learned.

Look at the first entry for "Track." It is the next line under turnout choices. The "Level Crossing" is the term JMRI uses for a Diamond Crossover.

No problem! Most people bought the SE8C to control signals! Thus, most never thought about the turnout control. The SE74 has been touted for both capabilities. If you like to control the turnouts with a pushbutton, or from a throttle, or even from JMRI, then both the SE8C and SE74 will work nicely for this purpose. If you have no need for any of that capability, then the old cross-wired toggle switch is simpler and cheaper.

I’m glad you liked this introduction. This was just a simple use of Logix to accomplish complex control situations! I have found a number of ways to use this JMRI capability. If you have a more difficult situation, let me know and I’ll use it to introduce the more advanced features!

I really am not knowledgeable about any signaling other than what I showed in the videos. The signal addressing via the turnout switch commands is simple once it’s understood. I don’t know about using the other types of signaling models. JMRI makes it quite simple to control the signals in a signal system that is easy to understand. I can explain almost anything regarding the use of that system with JMRI but haven’t had time nor interest in other systems. I think the SE8C and the SE74 have considerable capabilities that will go unused because of lack of understanding. Just like JMRI! I am only interested in passing along what I have learned so others can benefit without having to spend the learning time I have already spent. 😁

I’ve tried the signal addresses instead of the turnout addresses on the RR-cirkit SHD2’s. I prefer them as you mentioned where you have lunar or also a flashing color signal. But mostly because you are not controlling signals with turnout addresses, sounds counterintuitive and you don’t have to reserve turnout addresses for signals that you can’t later use for turnouts. You can have for example, a turnout address of 10 for a turnout and also a signal address of 10 for a signal. The only drawback I see is that you can’t remotely trigger a signal from a throttle. But then if you prefer to have all signals run automatically by JMRI, then you shouldn’t have to trigger signals manually.

I’m not sure what configuration you are referring to. Can you send me a diagram? Most likely there would be a variety of possible answers depending on how complex you wanted the signal system to be. You may have to use some of the Logix options that are available in the JMRI Tables. You can send to jimwor@comcast.net.

Lee, I sent an email with a couple of attachments. Let me know when you get them so that I know they got through. Sometimes email gets lost in the ethernet.

Lee, I just added the video we discussed regarding the back to back crossovers and the use of Logix to accomplish the proper signaling.

We tried the BXPA1 but had some problems. It wasn’t reporting occupancy properly and was slow to switch the polarity. It may have just been the one unit, but we decided to go a different way.

@@jimworcester981 Well thats not good to hear! lol. I guess I still have the AR-1. Which way did you go if you dont mind me asking. I'm having some confusion on wiring my layout with these new products. Also already had two Digitrax DCS 210 command stations fail.

@@RenegadeModelRailroader bought 2 more AR-1s! 😁. The problem is that using those you dedicate 4 spots on the BDL168 to the reverse loop, even if you only have one block to be detected. I have had to return some devices because they didn’t work right. I use the DCS240 on both the club and my home layout and haven’t had any problems.

@@jimworcester981 Yea I hear the 240 is way more reliable. I WAS trying to set it up for auto control. Now If I was using ds74 for tortoise switch control. Along with the dcs 210. Loco net would work for routing the switches on JMRI/Train controller correct ? I'm seeing the header pins and am wondering what they are ALL used for. Specifically the +5 volt reference and 0 volt reference. I know other pins go to a BD4N which doesnt have loconet. Any thoughts that might help ?

@@RenegadeModelRailroader I haven’t used the DS74. We have a DS64 at the club in the cabinet, but I haven’t had occasion to hook it up. Not sure but I THINK the DS74 works much like the SE74 with regard to controlling Tortoises. You might take a look at my video on using the SE74 for turnout control. We use the SE74 because we can also control the signals. The +5 is used to make the SE74 change the polarity going to the tortoise, thus making the motor change positions. Let me know how you make out!

Do it! Complex, frustrating, infuriating! But incredibly rewarding when you get it mastered! And an amazing system that can make your train come alive!

Glad they helped! I really had only dabbled a bit in signals on my own layout. It wasn’t until I started organizing the club layout that I really developed a system for doing the installations. Once you get past the initial confusion, it really isn’t that difficult to install a very impressive system of signaling!