UK electricians working in commercial, domestic and industrial installations. We a specialised focus on Solar PV, battery storage and EV chargers. Founder of Apprentice 121 in April 2020. Follow myself, Matthew, Nathan and my team onsite with tool demonstrations, working methods and silliness.
We feature cool tools in every video and show our work with explanations for equipment selected and working practices used.
So you mention "on the roof you have your TAP" at 28:45 - I wonder why these *need* to be on the roof? As it has no actual wired connectivity to the optimisers would it not be better to have these in the loft space near the TIGO optimisers? I think (with anything complex) these could fail and if they are more accessible then the loft location would be an easier place to replace them ?
It is always an option. On this weeks install we had the TAP in the detached garage next to the roof the optimisers were on. The trouble is were you win in some ways you lose in others. The working range on these is substantially reduced going through structures. While the optimisers can daisy chain data it is always better to have the direct comms to the tap and this is much more effective out on the roof. Especially on larger with installs with one or more taps. We always them as accessible as possible on the roof arrays so its considered and countered case by case. People have made the same argument about the actual optimisers but again logical but wrong lol.
49 degrees is fine, if anything you get a whisker more in winter offsetting the little you might lose in summer Little real difference to annual figures, approaching 60 degrees may notice generation a bit more, now that's a challenge to scramble up a steep slope I've seen on some places My own is about 46.5 degrees, that was enough fun, but built the rails up sturdy to help ascend upwards Many roofs seem to have a slight flare on them towards guttering, makes "fun" tweaking the levelling the rails Thought it was a 3 phase inverter, but one of the new MIN 7000 to 10000 range of inverters (7000 or 8000 = 2 MPPT's, 9/10,000 has 3 strings) Nice, stands off the wall a little more, but helps with passive cooling 11/10 for IMO isolators, "you don't need them if inverter has one built in" (I bloomin' do, just think it makes any servicing easier plus isolate each string, than shut off all strings at inverter, plus IMO's reputation I believe is already established than rely on an unknown isolator inside any inverter used) Those Jinko's oh no, I don't like those silver lines.... You said they were all black... Once fitted - all them little lines vanish unless you are up really close on roof (I panicked too, truth be told, but they vanish and perform brilliantly, very very close performance to Aiko panels) Top install sir
Ive had this conversation with GivEnergy regarding the AIO. It is fine for trunking and isolators to be closer. The cocnern is with Walls, ceiling and large structures that prevent airflow/cause heat build up. So we are golden here.
Hi Mark , I travelled from london to birmingham just to see you as I am your big fan . but I couldn't find you there. I looked for you everywhere. I have my first install as MCS next week, I managed to become MCS all because of your advice. Thanks Mark
My neighbours installer has just refused to fit one of these PIVs in their loft because their electricity fuse board isn't up to current standards. Since when has anyone looked at a fuse board before installing anything so basic as this PIV
That will be due to the MI and RCD requirement. Could well be the the wiring is not in a condition to modify/take the installation. I would listen to the installer and take that very fair/honest advice.
Great video Mark, I think some of the problem is also house design. I know plenty of houses, even new builds prior to latest building regs requiring EV charge points, where the consumer unit is in a cupboard under the stairs in the middle of house. So customer either pays more for cabling to be routed through the house (at even more expense if they want the cable chased in) or in trunking. Or they have an external CU for the EVCP I think the best solution (given how many houses have the CU in ridiculous positions) is two fold. 1 - Make it law (so it js written into ESQCR and not BS7671) that in a domestic setting any external consumer unit is made from GRP, is IP65 min and the protective devices must have the correct degree of pollution control rating. The other one is it is made law that on a TNCS Domestic property the DNO MUST fit a PEN fault device for the installation that is upfront of the rest of the installation. That way if a PEN fault does occur then Joe Public is protected. If they can’t manage/maintain their network properly then they should provide mitigation for it. I accept that even a well maintained network could suffer a PEN fault. But given the risks involved now with the push for EVs and electrification of everything. This wouldn’t be a big ask. Then again they can’t even fit a £20 EMIS. So highly unlikely they’d ever stump up the cost of a PEN fault device without being forced to.
Hi My CU is fitted in the dining room ( originally the garage). It looks awful high up on the wall. Can it be repositioned in its own plastic electric box on the outside wall cavity?
That is exactly how condensation forms read this electrical.theiet.org/test/wm-in-progress/102-september-2024/external-consumer-units-for-electric-vehicles-in-a-domestic-environment/
It's weird how the regulation community only acts after a foreseeable accident/fatality. I have to remind myself that the regulators that brought us to gasketed outdoor switches, vandal-proof protection, mounting equipment out-of-reach, a swath of requirements for caravan hook-ups, protected circuits on construction sites (including the use of protected and isolated transformers +-55v aka 110v), zoning of pools, bathrooms and alike; typically written in blood with the fresh smell of bacon a la ozone. Yet they sit on the sidelines with regular DIN-mounted circuit protection devices, mounted in the weather, outside the equipotential zone, near a frustrated consumer with their wet, steel electric vehicle close at hand, in their inappropriate footwear, standing in a muddy puddle. Genius. Still, we got all that recently revised regulation, process and the law regarding the simple matter of pulling the DNO fuse by an electrician who actually has the means of killing the load from inside the dwelling. Top work fellas.
This is a great video and I like your idea of TT where outdoor is unavoidable. What about feeding the metal board via an RCD main switch in the meter box too, for max protection?
Just one thing re the pen fault mate... Thats a steel framed building with metal cladding... Just saying... We as an industry get steamed up about when to be concerned about open pen faults... I suppose maybe you may raise the local ground voltage around the building in that instance so not quite as bad as a car on rubber tyres...
Yeah this is the back of my unit, I cant really carry out these demos on a customers gaff lol. That said most steel framed buildings should have earth pits around the structure as this ones does. LPS and PEN reasoning. Thanks
When it's showing the minimum distance(s) from the diffuser to a wall does it mean the edge of the diffuser? Also the nearer to the wall I have it does it mean that all speed settings aren't suitable?
I was going to ask about your thoughts on caravan supplies but I see you've mentioned it in your description. I've never been a fan of the splashproof IP44 "ceeform" connectors used for those but they are commonly accepted. On larger caravan sites you have very little up-front other than your standard TT arrangement so I'd consider them to have the same issues as highlighted - Do you trust that the earth rods are frequently tested in these installations? It's even more likely that a consumer will try to operate the RCBOs in a campsite setting during the rain, as they are more likely to trip the limited supply and they would lose both light and often heat depending on the caravan type. Regarding the din-rail heater and thermostats in your example, I'd consider getting a larger inner consumer unit and mounting it within that enclosure. This has a few benefits: 1) There are no exposed conductors and guards to worry about. 2) There's a little more protection against water ingress, rather than the open holes in the top of the heater. 3) By heating the inner consumer unit, it's the warmest part which means that any condensation is more likely to form on the walls of the outer enclosure. 4) It should be slightly more energy efficient. Essentially it's just using the outer enclosure as a slightly insulated and weatherproof box, very much like the garage consumer unit example as mentioned in another comment. It's not a solution to the pollution rating issue, but I think a supply isolator which is interlocked with the lid (and separately weatherproofed) would mitigate some of the issues raised.
Its all about the Macro environment. Controlling the temp around the CU rather than within it is key. Ive done it the way you describe and its less effective in prevention of condensation. So larger outer enclosure with good heating ventilation for the win. Carvan sites have unique requirements in terms of earthing, one being no PME so the eisk of PEN faults is non existent. They also have cabinets with switchgear feeding the actual pillars which again will include RCD protection. Plus the caravan themselves have even further siwtchgear within them. Totally different thing and the comparison just isnt there. Never was really. The best solution is only to take this approach when absolutley unavoidable rather than by default. When it is unavaoidable following a similar approach to ones Ive shared is no bad thing imho.
@@electrician247 Ah fair enough then if you've already tried that, it's good to know your experience. I do, however, respectfully disagree with caravan sites being totally different. Sure the PEN fault issue is not a problem, but the other issues do not appear to be mitigated. The MCBs / RCBOs on the pillars can be operated in the rain under the same sort of flap mechanism as these outdoor consumer units. They have no environmental mitigations for condensation and other particles. Sure the upstream S-type RCD might offer some protection to the user, but RCDs are intended as the last line of defence - Users shouldn't be allowed to be in a bad situation in the first place. I've seen a campsite with a faulty upstream S-Type RCD, and I've also seen a campsite with a disconnected earth rod which had gone unnoticed for quite some time before I pointed it out. (On a campsite where the electrician who doing an EIRC told the owner that she'd need to change the boards on the pillars to metal!) I've also seen a caravan with two input sockets, both wired together in parallel. These things can and do happen sadly but for this reason, I think caravan sites are a bit of a wild-west in this regard and shouldn't be excluded from this sort of discussion - I'd argue that due to the unpredictable environment and the increased likelihood of a consumer at a caravan site operating the pillar protection devices, it's more of a risk than for EV chargers.
@@yngndrw. Exactly why I disagree its anything like the same. Caravans and sites have specific special locations within BS7671. Maintenance to that standard is beyond the realms of this issue. Equally the equipment in caravan pillars is generally 60947-2 rather than 60898 and housed in equipment designed and intended for that application. With 3 points of fault and additional protection in the circuit cascade. Unlike an EVSE wired from henley blocks on the suppliers fuse on PME systems with 60898 deivces deployed and no specific coverage in BS7671. I can understand why people think it, same as marinas, boats and even garden sheds. But if we dig deep enough the facts dont lie.
great video Mark. I hope they will take notice and not allow DB outside. and the other point who is going to mantain the extra devices heater, fan and vent plugs, it,s a bit like is the RCD tested every time as per instrunctions if ever.
@@electrician247 It's actually not a bad shout, a sealed box with the RCBOs (Screwed shut with a window) and an auto recloser - Then install a waterproof reset button on the outside.
Unfortunately when the trends are led by the needs of businesses wanting to install high volumes at low margins this is where we arrive. The IET needs to review this situation quite urgently IMHO. But they also need to recognise that this is the solution when even on new build houses there is no provision required for expansion and easy modification. We are still installing distrubution equipment in visually prominent places of in the middle of the house. EV/ASHPs require switchgear that still isn't made by all of the manufacturers. The IET have fiddled on the sidelines with this soft "let's wait and see" approach for too long and we are still installing electrics the same was as we were 50 years ago even though the needs are now very different.
EV Consumer unit: Outside (if you really have to) - insulated/plastic due to PEN fault risk PEN fault occurs, Charger trips due PEN fault protection - but PEN fault still exists elsewhere... Owner goes to check & decides to lift lid of a metal EV CS whilst standing on actual earth... (Inside house/garage - metal but outside if needs must - plastic) ((Even where CS inside an enclosure, still ensure both insulated to mitigate rare risk of PEN fault)) Apply liberal common sense in choosing location, avoid highly exposed area where possible Plastic/metal EV CS debate rolls on, depending how the 18th Gospel is interpreted blah blah blah... That's my approach, you do you & I do me etc...
Nice one Mark. I seem to recall the BG IP65 CU being touted solely as a garage board when it was introduced, as such not being completely in the elements , as they are advertised as being suitable for today. In a garage they can be effective at dealing with the all year round temperature and humidity variations found in most garages. As such it will never be soaked as would one fixed to the outside wall of a house all year, nor have as much of the dangers you have demonstrated. For me, a moulded plastic IP66 enclosure (with the same fire retardant additives used in plastic accessories) though not as belt and braces as your setup, would be better off for safety (pen-fault) and aesthetically pleasing to customers who don't want a big GRP box on the side of their home.
Yeah plastic helps in one way but then suffers in another with IK impact rating they need. Which is why I think many swapped to metal. If totally unavoidable for me the only way is inside a secondary cut in meter box or wall mounted cabinet. Again probs best plastic board inside that. In an unheated garage we just have the temp variation to cover off in our design. We would have expanded our exponential zone into it or utilised an electrode so much of the other problems disappear. Equally they would generally be on a submains circuit with protection beyond the main cut out
@@electrician247 Thanks for the response Mark, your last paragraph covers it all very well. As for the IK rating though, would you say it wouldn't be so difficult for manufacturers to match the IK to that of the EVSE itself? Have you seen the Efixx short on the Allbro outdoor socket at IK10 where they batter it in a quarry? I couldn't actually find the IK rating of the BG, Fusebox or Lewden EV CUs. I know we automatically think that because they're metal, they're robust but it's cast aluminium, which I think can't take much force. I did see though, Lewden were showing a polycarbonate one on the same page of their pdf ( I think their site was down as that's all I could get when searching ttinterweb.) Let's see in a year how it all went with your experiment.
Same. An estate near me is full of them. We have re positioned dozens to indoors as they failed with time and consumers got fed up going outdoors to reset breakers. Talk about backwards design 🤪 But then we used to put toilets in gardens so anything is possible.
Totally agree Mark what I would do right or wrong would be GRP box with plastic up rated DB inside and call that it more than good enough anyone who touches electric,s with wet hands is on a well you know what I mean maybe we should think about bringing back the old public information films like in the 1970s
Nice setup. How well does the enphase work with the AIO? Does the AIO know thst power is coming from solar even though its not coming through a givenergy inverter?
Hi! I'm in the UK also and i have an 8' x 6' shed (with a re-enforced/strengthened roof) and am considering putting a couple of solar panels on it connected to a microinverter (maybe the new fox ess ones). The work will be done at the same time as solar on our house but I am wondering if solar on a shed roof is a non-starter for any reason? (Building regs etc) ? Thanks in advance
Laid flat is always a challenge. Most solar panel manufacturers prohibit it. Was happy to take the risk on my own place. Otherwise it's all about structural strength and any planning rules in your area. Aiko have a panel weighing 9kg BTW so good option on weak roofs
Great explanation and install. Watched an E5 video on PID today so others are talking about it. Although they do not seem technically knowledgeable on that podcast anymore. Dropped right off and more a show about Paul talking about how great he is. Are you sure those panels are over 50V? Sounds high?
Thanks for watching, deffo 50V+ some panels do peak pretty high but as a result have lower ISC values. So always a trade off. I have a lot of respect for what the E5 guys have done and was probably one of the biggest supporters/promoters of them all early doors. Would rather avoid personal comments about others as thats not cool. Fair to say they have not replicated that support towards apprentice 121 and such things. Such is life. I saw they had dropped an episode on PID earlier this week. This was filmed well before that though lol. More chat on all topics the better and I will have to give it a listen.
Careful with "off grid", the givenergy warranty states it must be connected to the internet 90% of the time and warranty will be voided if it looses connection for too long... like in a power cut :)
I mean that could be a thing if the AIO didnt keep the internet and power on during a powercut. That is kind of the point. Imagine a warranty void due to that lol. Crazy talk.
Of course. The immersion should only ever be backup to the main source of heating. This just supplements it and very well indeed it has to be said. Thanks
Can't believe you have spelt this out so many times for energy companies and CPS etc yet still nothing. In 46 years in this game I struggle thinking of more clearly stupid things accepted/promoted. Nobody listens to electricians anymore. It's all about mates promoting junk for money and getting other mates allowing it in regs. Follow the money.
what area do you cover to install? also which is the charger you'd recommend thats as basic as possible i really don't need any bells and whistles my cars app shows progress and thats all i need, thanks for your help
Due to RU-vid enquiries we cover most of the UK. But will be more expensive depending how far we are travelling. Do you have solar or battery storage on your house? Most are pretty easy to use outside of all the apps. The givenergy solution is one of my favourites and they are very good value
Nice one, Mark. What a great video. You absolutely knocked out out of the park with the discussion of consumer unit’s be used outside. I remember watching one of the Electrician guide to everything with Neil Bridgeman mention about the thermal effects of MCB which I have looked and you have explained it thoroughly in this video, cheers mate.
Let them watch it close to bedtime mate. I have a super power of sending people to sleep 🤣. Cheers for the comment mate and hope you are doing good! Seems you are flying following your insta stories everyday.
Brilliant content thanks very much for sharing this ! , Bruno is doing a marvelous job love him 🤩 Great to see that Polar include the N/E bond relay for island mode , is there anything in the regs which states that any EPS/UPS downstream overcurrent protection device should be of a lower value than the maximum inverter output current ? EG if the inverter is rated at 16A maximum we shouldn't be using 32A Mcb's to protect EPS/ups ring final circuits . Currently It looks like we're more reliant on the internal electronics for current protection rather than any MCB's which rely on a high PFC for quick disconnection . Thanks again this is all very helpful
For winter generation put panels on the house walls? Might need white limestone slabs or something to help light reflecting up. Guess static load is OK, check with a structural engineer about winds etc?
Having 10 PV panels fitted on January 2nd, by Mid March I had pigeons nesting under one array, and eyeing up the other one for a further nursery. After fledging, I had about 4 months of defending the panels from further nest building until I fitted barriers of 4 "hedgehog" gutter brushes wired together into 16 metre combined lengths to completely surround each array of 6 panels mounted on south and 4 panels on west roofs. Fitting them retrospectively was a one-man job for me from ladder with fixed stand-off and a roof ladder, and took less than 2 hours for each array. These ladders are semi permanent to enable easy cleaning, with hose, jetwash and window cleaning squeegees. but rainfall so far has sufficed to wash off any seagull spatters, on what has been a fairly dry year overall on the south coast. Pigeons don't appear to roost on my roof at all since fitting these a couple of months ago, I see lots of professionally fitted bird protection attracting mating pigeons, so I guess their barriers are not complete. 40 metres of 100mm diameter gutter brushes cost £96.00. Altogether, I have been pleased with my Solax 3.7kW inverter and 5,8kW battery, which in 8 months has generated 3mWh back to grid on an Octopus Flux tariff, making more than I use in terms of cost, with refunds every 2 months, currently with about £126 credit. September has been disappointing so far, so I will wait another month before deciding how much credit to leave to cover winter. I have a variable Direct Debit,and the last DD I paid was in May, refunded in June. I guess the predicted 7-10 years before I have covered my investment for the PV installation was reasonably accurate, so as a pensioner, I feel somewhat less disadvantaged by the Kleptocratic Starmer Government than I might have otherwise.
