‘The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism’ - A Conversation with Daniel Hummel 

The really evil thing about dispensationalism is that it made void the law of God. Am I right? These guys failed to mention that. There is a dispensation of Law and another dispensation of Grace, according to dispensationalism. It makes people free to sin. I am wondering whether these guys are worth listening to. What is their position on God's law?

​​​​​@@jakebredthauer5100I'm not a dispensationalist but I don't think it's evil. They're not saying that we're free to sin under grace. I think what they mean is that we no longer have to do so much work as jews did during the law of moses. And of course people aren't being stoned anymore for committing certain sins. God seems to give people more time for repentance now under the new covenant.

@@jasonbourne5142 Under the New Covenant, the moral law has been retained. Homosexuality is still a capital crime. There needs to be two witnesses. Capital crimes are punishable by death. Stoning is one means of execution.

@@jakebredthauer5100 I don't think you understand dispensation.

I wasn't aware it had died but I'm glad it's apparently under threat.May God destroy all falsehoods.

One thing is the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church before the 7-year Great Tribulation that was not taught by the early church fathers. This doctrine runs contrary to what Christ said that no one knows His Second Coming. This system of theology seems to pick and choose Scripture text to fit their system of theology instead of allowing Scripture to speak for it ltself.This greatly affects how Christians view the future that lack Biblical evidence. Such a system of theology can easily be taken advantage by as a means of manipulation and control, like the current crisis in the Middle East with Israel and Hamas.

The problem is that dispensation theology has been proven correct. Opposed to covenant theology that teaches that Christians are the new Jews who will inherit God's Old Testament promises to the Jews, dispensation theology teaches that the Jews are still relevant and God's Old Testiment promises are still applicable to the Jews. The miraculous establishment of Israel in 1948 in fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophesy for the Jews, proved that dispensation theology is the accurate theology by which to understand scripture.

@@calebalton2084 actually, you are not correct at all here. Covenantal theology has ALWAYS had a school (called HISTORICAL pre mil) which looks for a future millennial kingdom which is Abrahamic in nature. To claim that the secular atheistic anti Christian Israel of today is a recipient of the covenantal blessings of the OT just flies in the face of every description of God's relationship with covenantal Israel. from above: Dispensationalism, besides failing in its insistence on a woodenly literal MAN MADE hermeneutic (literal whenever possible) fails primarily in its refusal to see the OT as a record of the triumph of the message of grace, rather than a series of historical recordings of the failings of man. The HISTORICAL (or covenantal) understanding of the message of the Old Covenant was the organic unfolding of God's message of rescue, redemption, and dwelling with His people, with a forward looking view to the clarification of these ideas in Jesus. Dispensationalism STARTS with what I believe is a transformation of the personal injury and pain of Darby into church history. He and Scofield, Pentecost, Ryrie, Walvoord, etc insist that the OT is a record PRIMARILY of the failure of the Jewish nation to embody the kingdom of God. Therefore, the overall message of dispensationalism has been an OT full of moralisms, weak on the message of justification by faith/grace in OT (later stuff IS better!), weak on finding Christ as the subject matter of the OT, and very weak on the organic unity of the testaments (bible). As far as the "literal whenever possible" hermeneutic goes, this was an understandable response to liberalism, which "spiritualized" or allegorized OT (and NT!!!!) passages which offended their rationalism. I get this and applaud it. However, it is simply NOT the way the NT itself teaches us to interpret OT passages. It frequently insists on a hermeneutic which in fact DOES "spiritualize" the OT passages..... IN PARTICULAR the ones most at issue, those of Israel in OT prophecies. This, and not the silly nonsense of end times lunatics, is why I cannot be a dispensationalist. I am amused about raptures and imbedded chips with 666 RFIDs and whether Russia is Gog or Magog, and whether Revelation teaches about atomic bombs and Cobra helicopters (tip of the hat to Hal Lindsey)...., but they are not the core.

​@@calebalton2084,I agree

Those who control the $ can engineer things to happen in the world. If you can’t follow the $ and see it leads away from the Bible. Don’t know what else could be done to persuade.

As a child in the 1950s I was taken to a church that taught dispensationalism. They all thought it would happen in their life times. They are all dead now.

Well to be fair, maybe the reason for not investing in 4 years of college wasn't the accurate part of that older saint's advice. And I have a question: you're in your 70's and you use emogis?

Some men are fools. But this does not reflect on the truth of Dispensationalism. There are many Reformed men who are preterists who believe that there is nothing future. They seem to believe that even though John penned the Revelation more than twenty years after the destruction of the Temple, yet what was there prophesied had already occurred. But I judge Reformed theology on the teachings of more sound thinkers.

Hey, I resemble that 😂

I agree! I love Voddie's sermons and lectures on eschatology!

Amen

That all depends upon what you pull from the reading. Two people can read the same plaintext and come away with different interpretations.

I still use my Scofield Bible

Covenant theology obviously spiritualizes the text and is not simply read the word of god. But classic dispensationalism also puts a world view on it. I believe that both are arguing and not realizing that the truth is somewhere between the extremes. He has spent a lot of time showing how dispensationalism is a cultural phenomenon, But never points out how covenant theology came out of a culture from sixteen hundred years ago. Since god is outside of time, His truths are timeless. And his words never change. I am sure that some day soon.We will all realize that everyone was wrong. Just like the people looking for jesus all were looking for somebody other than who actually appeared even though they were reading the same scripture.

What such errors concerning Calvinism?

The most vehement anti Calvinists usually have no idea what "Calvinists" are.

@tanstaafl5695 As I read the bible, it seems to me Calvinists are confused.

@@tanstaafl5695 True dat.

@@brotherarnAbsolutely.

@@brotherarnin what way?

I think the western Christians have been polluted by Soddom and seek decadence/comfort/safety/idolatry/etc. Pre-trib rapture fits in the mind of a decadent westerner that has never experienced war, famine, hunger, and persecution. Every year 100k Christians are martyred worldwide in forgotten 3rd world countries, but westerners instead obsess about tongues, signs, wonders, getting rich, and Israel.

Read Revelation 19. The church BRIDE is in heaven DURING the 7yr tribulation AT the Marriage Feast of Jesus Christ. We return WITH HIM to earth at the Armageddon war which is at the tribulation end. So we were taken in to heaven as Paul wrote in 1Thessalonians 4: 17 the meeting in the air, 1Corinthians 15: 51-56 getting our changed immortal bodies.

​@@bryanrendleman2001no. There's not a 3rd coming, only a 2nd.

@@tylermclean6352 At The Blessed Hope Mystery Paul wrote of, Jesus does not return. We meet Him in the cliuds in the air. Revelation 19 shows us the church BRIDE in heaven at the marriage feast of Jesus Christ during the 7yr tribulation and immediately returning with Jesus at the Armageddon war which is at the very END of the tribulation. So yes Jesus only returns once.

Catching away CAN'T happen at Jesus's return because Paul said we get our changed immortal bodies and those don't reproduce. During Jesus's 1,000 kingdom reign people WILL be reproducing as scriptures state and we DON'T with our glorified perfected Immortal bodies. Jesus separates the believers the sheep 🐑 from the unbelieving goats 🐐 at His return and sends the goats 🐐 to hell ! SO, we can't be caught up at Jesus's return ! BECAUSE, there would be NO MORTAL humans left to go into the millineal reign !

I believe I fall on the dispensational side of the spectrum. But then again I haven't really been aware of the term and hear varying definition s of what it is but what I do know is that those who are anti dispensationalists do not have any good explanations of how the pieces of the puzzle fit together. they don't believe in a future restoration of Israel that is promised throughout the prophetic books, they have no good explanation of Romans Ch9-11, they have no good explanation of what the book of revelation means or how it unfolds. It basically leaves you with absolutely nothing you know about God's prophetic plans given in scripture. Pastors who hold to replacement theology have nothing to say about prophetic passages of the Bible. When they come to prophetic passages they feel it convenient to just skip over them as too controversial and can't teach them because they reject what scriptures say on the plain face of the text. The same thing happens with the anti Calvinists and yet they seem to mock those who take the bible at face value and simply believe what the scriptures plainly say.

@@paulhovan5466 I concur. I sniffed this out in less than a minute of the podcast. I am growing to hate the very word "dispensationalist", as those who forcefully espouse their differing views do nothing but to divide the body of Christ. This debate does not bring peace. It brings strife. It's an unnecessary debate, since it wholly deviates from Essential Christianity, which is the gospel and the critical elements of the gospel. Without the gospel, without Jesus as the second person in the Trinity, His birth, His death, and resurrection and His promise to return at an appointed time, Christianity falls apart. Paul said as much. If I MUST use the word, then yes, I am a dispensationalist. But those who believe otherwise, I do not care much. I can use scripture after scripture to debate this, but it's like arguing with a brick wall. It's blah, blah, blah. And as you say, the pieces to the Biblical puzzle do not line up and make little sense with the thinking of what is in this podcast. Chuck Missler, who is now with the Lord, has said that the more he studied the scriptures, the more he came to view most of it as being literal. His is quoted as saying that, "The Bible is 66 books written by 40 authors over thousands of years. It is an integrated message system. Every detail, every jog and tittle."

Very fair comment

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 King James Version 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Totally agree. But how can you with these guys who vilify those who held to a dispensation Al view in the past, setting up nothing more than a straw man argument. NO TALK of SPECIFIC SCRIPTURES and where dispensational theology is wrong.

I totally agree.🙏❤️🕊️

Amil reformed theology (most popular version today) overreacted against dispensationalism by denying the return of Israel to the land and their subsequent conversion. Historical reformed theology believed in the future conversion of the Jews, but without the awful baggage of dispensationalism.

Very well said. I too have come to a dispensational view by default; digging into the Scriptures to find the meaning and coherence. A dispensation Al view made the Scriptures come alive and only bolstered my confidence in my salvation in Christ.

Nope…. You missed nothing. This conversation was a “holy nope!”

As you stated, it's a conversation, it's to get us to thinking and rolling up our selves and going to work. Study requires work. The book of Ephesians held me alot. Two become One in Christ Jesus. There's only one true Israel or what we would call church.

None at all. His argument is typically Catholic metaphysical apology ... theology based on observation of depraved people behavior and sad history.

can’t wait to read this !

They'll destroy all of his objections!

Does it rely on passages out of pseudo Ephraem?

Oh boy- now I'm getting confused 🫥

Good stuff! I think that the “sensational myth” of dispensationalism is sensationally fallacious! All joking aside, I think it’s convoluted nonsense. However my best of friends totally believe in its theory and I’m good with that. It’s a secondary issue and doesn’t matter, as long as we are unified in core Christian doctrine. Also, it doesn’t matter if we are pre-millennial amillennial or post-millennial believers. As long as we all believe in core Christian doctrine and have unity with that, that is the most important thing. All I know for certain is that Christ will return a second time. Amen.

Darby was a hero of the faith and these jokers and all the replacement theologians try to make him a monster and false teacher, all because he believes Israel has a purpose in end time events.

​​@@scottroth5732no, Darby was an egotistical man who desired to be original with his secret rapture theory. This rapture theory came from the Jesuits and was not original with Darby although he wanted people to think it was. He called it new wine, which it wasn't but Jesuit disinformation. In other words he introduced the double second coming of Jesus and established the idea that God deals with Israel differently than the Church which is heresy. The Church for 1800+ years held that there is only One Way into the sheepfold and that was Jesus Christ. No one gets around that. No one. Now with the majority of Protestants holding with Darby's views the modern Church practically worships the state of israel. You can call it replacement theology all you want. This was the view of the Church for 1900 years until the Scofield Reference Bible. That is that the Church is Israel. 70 A.D. and the Roman destruction of Jerusalem was God's judgement on the remnant of Israel for rejecting their Messiah.

Agree that Showers’ Difference book is an excellent work.

I also read “There Really Is A Diffrerence”, and it was the best reference that I have read on why Dispensationalism is the better interpretation. It goes all the way back to the beginning of the church.

@@hcane6221 We now have what just 50 yrs ago was imagined but not documented. We now have sermons from the early 2nd C that are not only premil, but also allude to a pretrib rapture. That the early churches were millennial has never been debated. Anything other than that came as a result of of Greek philosophical ideas creeping into the church's theology. Even the inclusion of "descended into hell" in the Apostle's creed is a Grecian pagan concept of the afterlife whereas the scriptures speak of Christ in the *grave*, i.e. His body laid in the tomb. Peter's comment is highly dubious and IMHO, the better interpretation is that Christ spoke to the prediluvian crowd not in Hades but historically through "a preacher of righteousness", i.e. Noah.

Amen!

So sad. Works and religious activity won’t save you.

Bravo! Excellent point. You made more sense than these egg heads did for the whole hour.

You just saved me an hour. Thank you!

Basically it was true and is coming true before our eyes.

the fantastical parts are what sell it. Dispensationalism is selling heaven without death to easy believers. If that promise ever went away (and, mind you, it will happen THIS GENERATION, every generation since 1830) the system would lose most if not all, of it's following

The short Book "There Really Is A Difference" by Renald E Showers must be read by anyone with questions about this. All my students are urged to read it before coming to a conclusion.

🥴🥴🥴🥴

That is a silly statement. "Calvinism" (a term Calvin would have deplored) simply states that ALL of salvation is of God. ALL of it is grace, including your decision to believe. Your salvation is rooted in eternity past, performed by Jesus on the cross, effectuated by regeneration (which was not predicated on your "decision" to believe) and guaranteed into eternity by that same the Holy Spirit. That is it in a nutshell. Objections to that teaching are never derived from the bible itself, but rather rationalistic objections that "if that is true, we don't have 'free will' " (by which is mean that our decisions do not matter. They pile these on to commands to repent and believe and biblical insistence that our decisions DO matter, with this insistence that the two CANNOT be true. Again, this is silly, unbiblical (it teaches both as equally true), and makes man's reason into the ultimate arbiter into what is possible.

You are absolutely correct.

That's because you live in the Laodicean lukewarm era where the common response to heresy is; "Let's just all get along". The truth is, Paul threw Hymenaeus & his pals out of church and called them blasphemers over wrong doctrine surrounding eschatology. So either Laodicea American christians are right and Paul over reacted or Paul was right and American Laodiceans are too lukewarm to stand for the truth and recognize the true dangers of these heresies.

But ultimately there is truth...whether primary or secondary. The Bible is clear about what to do about untruth. The danger in secondary untruth is that it has very real implications in practical theology. That, then, harms our witness...think 1 Cor 3:15.

Mcauthor hardly dispensationalist

Goes all the way back to THE APOSTLE OF THE GENTILES, WHERE GOD MADE KNOWN TO PAUL THE REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY THAT WAS (NOT) MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN BUT IS NOW MADE KNOWN, (PAULS) MEET W CHRIST) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. The kjb never made more sence once i started studying Gods Word Gods way. God makes foolish the wisdom of this world. Where is the scribe? Mans problem is they DONT READ, & or comprehend the MANIFOLD wisdom of God. You cannot get any more diffrent then circumcision and uncircumcision. The book is chronological. And the book does not need man's help or interpretation. It defines itself line up on line, precept upon precept. Men choose to follow the traditions of men more than God's word, and is as simple as that.

Most of todays church is lost, because of mens itchy ears. There should be NO DENOMINATIONS, DIVISIONS In belief. The Church, the Body of Christ is what God is doing today. Long suffering, and God used Saul/Paul to show this grace

It doesn't take courage to stand against dispensationalism.... it takes courage to stand up to the world... and the world could not care less if you or I are Dispensationalist or Covenant Theologians or whatever... all it cares about is that we claim the name of Christ, and therefore, it can more easily attack, divide and do harm to the Body of Christ when we allow the enemy to get us into arguments over non-essential issues like Dispensationalism vs Covenant Theology.

@@jbc95 Masterfully stated. I wholeheartedly concur.

Tell that to Charles Feinberg, J. Dwight Pentecost, Herman Hoyt, Charles Ryrie, and John Walvoord. Also Norman Geisler, Billy Graham. Charles Stanly. John MacArthur and Clarence Larkin. I could go on and on. Don't be an arrogant ass.

And don't forget the date setting antics of Chuck Smith...

We love Dispensationalists!!!!!

No way if anything the anti dispensationalists are marketing anti propaganda. Calvary chapel has it write because they teach the Bible precept by precept line by line and don't avoid difficult complicated topics and prophecy like most churches do.

@robinq5511 judgemental and ungracious. Chuck Smith is wonderful humble and godly

How is 3rd Temple sacrifices a crazy notion? Have you not noticed that the Jews have returned to Israel? Have you not noticed that Jews control Jerusalem? Do you not realize that the 3rd Temple is on the doorstep of existing? Or do you imagine that the Jews will progress this far, and just give up building the 3rd Temple.

Sad.

It's like God dispenses His grace at different times by different covenants.

God has “two peoples”? Heresy.

@@charlesheck6812 yes he does. That's what scripture tells us. Israel has been divorced from God the Father. Now the body o Christ is his bride...and after the great tribulation God reinstates Israel and the Jews as his spouse once again. Have you read the Bible friend?

@@charlesheck6812 Then the Lord said, “Call him Lo-Ammi (which means “not my people”), for you are not my people, and I am not your God. - Hosea 1:9 This is God telling Israel they are not his people anymore, but Hosea ends with prophecy of Israel coming to repentance during the great tribulation. The “two peoples” of God i.e Israel and the church is not heretical in the least.

@@Billy1690-ws8jz Romans 11:25, for starters. God bless you.

I believe all of your points and they are the basis of my beliefs, most especially point 2, which these eggheads cannot grasp.

​@@BroMark1611yes infact when I first started reading the bible at home by my self I came to conclusion that salvation in the old testament was by the law and that salvation in the new testament was by Jesus christ sacrifice on the cross. Turns out I'm a dispensationalist according to the baptist cult building I attended for almost 2 years

And that unfortunately is incorrect.

For centuries people thought that the idea that Israel would return as an actual nation was a ridiculous thought. They said that would never happen. But the scriptures said it would exist again just like God said it would. If the scriptures say that is a seven year period to deal with Israel's sin of rejection, then it will most certainly come to pass. If the bible says believers will be caught up to meet the LORD in the air, then it most certainly will happen. People really just don't want to believe what the plainest reading of the text says.

Highly recommend the coming Prince by sir Robert Anderson. By far the best and well researched commentary on Daniel’s 70 weeks that I’ve seen. The evidence presented in that book make it clear that there is really no other explanation than the 70th week is prophecy yet to be fulfilled.

If the 70th week of Daniel was completed at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, then sir you must tell me the very day Christ came the 2ND TIME. Because Mathew 24:29-31 makes it very clear that Christ would come back after the Tribulation IMMEDIATELY to earth, and EVERY eye would see Him, as well as all the events recorded in these verses. If you cannot answer the question, your conclusions are false.

​@@paulhovan5466Matthew 21:33-46

I think Calvin and others did!

Paul however calls us to be like the Bereans who checked the scripture to see if those things were true. The scriptures in that day was the OT.

​@@robinq5511I don't know why that is important but actually Peter refers to Paul's writings as Scripture... John knew Revelations was Scripture. They were completely aware that Jesus life was Scripture...

All dispensationalism boils down to is that Israel was not replaced by the Church. God merely set them aside until the "fullness of the Gentiles" is complete. As I have noted above, read Renald Showers, "There Is A Difference."

😭😭 I find my Bible believing forehead getting slapped every time I encounter either one... And Calvinism makes my eyes roll back into my head. 🤣

@@jimhughes1070 IMHO, Calvinism is simply a historical/grammatic theological interpretation of the bible. And we would all admit, no matter what system we tend to adhere to, there are errors within it. As often is said, if you believe everything some one or some system holds to, then you don't know how to think for yourself. I have thousands of book in my theological library and I probably have some bone to pick with all of them. While God's revelation is absolute and true, we are only finite and can never come to an absolute understanding of it. However, we can come to a correct understanding at its major points. The major difference between Christian systems involves hermeneutics. Absolutely fundamental in choosing the correct methodology.

@@leefury7 I thought I made most of those points.... (Calvin is "simply"... was a pretty nice touch 🤣).... Personally I think "bold and profound" Would be better descriptive words , when addressing the errors "used" in the numerous commentaries and their "systems" ... Maybe if God was just an idea, we could "gloss over" the many warnings found throughout the Bible... Gird up our loins, and fearlessly teach men that God is "unable" to make Himself understood... Oh the woes of creating a larger "market share"😭 (I can see the results now...🤔... If I declared to our congregation .. "No need to read your actual Bible, God jumbled up his message so badly it can't be understood"...our pastor will tell you what to believe 🤣).. My little brother would most likely *lay hands* on Me!🤣.... "Touch not, taste not, don't even handle..." Seems pretty straightforward, after reading Genesis to Malachi... But why? "My people perish for the lack of knowledge"... While being in possession of a message "so simple that a fool, though he were a traveler from another country,... Should not fall into error "... Slightly paraphrased, but on Point... I'm imagining what it would be like if everyone listened to God's Words... Judged everything by God's standard... (His favorite *Top Ten Commandments*).. and follow the examples of the prophets, apostles and Jesus himself.. and rebuked those found to be in error... INSTEAD OF... Who is the author of confusion, again? 🤔.. That's all I'm sayin'.. You know what I'm sayin'.... 🤣🤣

@@jimhughes1070 "God is not a god of confusion, is He?" I believe in the perspicuity of scripture while at the same time admitting to never, ever being able to plumb the depth of it.

When I left Dispensationalism, the main thing that caused my departure was the lack of a plain reading of Scripture in Dispensational Eschatology. There is no plain reading of the Scriptures that demonstrates that the Church Age was a "Plan B" to Christ's First Advent. Changing the meaning of "this generation" in the Olivet Discourse rejects a plain reading of the passage (Mt. 24:34). Creating an invisible gap in the prophecy of the 70 weeks in the Book of Daniel can hardly be called a "plain reading". A plain reading of the four times in the Book of Revelation where John says or is told these things "must shortly come to pass", "the time is at hand", or "the time is near" is contrary to Dispensationalism. I love my Dispensational brethren. My brother is a pastor and ardent Dispensationalist. I'm not looking to debate all the fine details of the system, nor am I arrogant enough to say "you are wrong". But I find it incredulous that Dispensationalists claim their system is based upon a "plain reading" of Scripture, while major tenets of the system simply cannot be found by a plain reading.

Very well said!

Not to argue, but why would God leave His Body the Church to experience His wrath in the tribulation, when Scripture clearly states that grace age believers are not under wrath, but grace??

@@rjhinnj Jesus didn't. The Tribulation was the period of time leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem and The Temple in 70 AD. The blood, fire and smoke in the Olivet Discourse and in John's visions in the Book of Revelation are pictorial language for God's judgement on a nation. Go back and look in the OT (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel all have it) and you will see this same prophetic decreation language being used about God judging the heathen nations of Egypt, Babylon, and Assyria, but now God is foretelling the destructive judgement of apostate Jerusalem. Several times in Matthew 21-25 Jesus pronounces judgement on "this generation". Jesus tells the disciples about this destruction, and the signs leading up to it. Luke's Gospel tells us that Jesus warns them as soon as you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, flee to the mountains. The Christians in Jerusalem remembered that and they did flee to Pella. So, Jesus protected the Christians from the Great Tribulation that fell upon the Harlot, apostate Jerusalem.

Dispensationalism does not discount covenants; it embraces them. In fact, dispensationalism calls out Covenant theology for declaring that God will NOT honor His Covenants with Israel (Davidic) and restore Israel in their land and kingdom with Christ ruling from Jerusalem. Dispensationalists, like Jesus, DO believe in the literal restoration of the Davidic kingdom with Christ on the throne in Jerusalem! So how on earth can you say that a dispensational view discounts Gods covenants with Israel, when in fact they are among the staples of the theology???????!

@@rjhinnj First my friend, Let me make this clear at the outset. I do not believe in Covenant Theology either. Critique and criticize me for words I actually wrote and published as a comment. I shared an experience I had when going to bible college and that happened in 1996 at Pacific Coast Baptist Bible college. Though at the time I was a dispensationalist-I objected because what they taught was not taught anywhere in the scriptures. I made the same challenge back then as a dispensationalist as the same challenge today-what was taught about the bride of Christ ruling in heaving with Christ and the bride of God (Israel) ruling on earth cannot be found in the scriptures. I will give the same point I brought up back then as it is still valid today-when you look at the description of the new Jerusalem coming down-there are two descriptions. First that the 12 foundational stones had the names of the twelve apostles written on each foundational stone. On the gates are the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. You tell me, how in the world do you seperate the Son of God from the Father on where and with whom they rule and reign? 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like precious stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. Rev 12 It had a great and high wall. It had twelve gates and at those gates, twelve angels; and names have been written on those gates, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21:10-14 LSB If you want to dispute me on something, dispute me on something I actually wrote and affirmed. It does not matter if a dispensationalist or a teaching affirms the Covenants or not. Dispensationalism is found nowhere in the scriptures. You cannot find it described or named. You cannot find different dispensations written about in the scriptures. Should we not believe what the scriptures actually teach? Or should we continue to impose our thoughts on the biblical text because it makes sense though not actually named or taught in the scriptures? Where I come from, we call that Eisegesis. That is the only way I can see anyone coming up with the ideal of dispensationalism. You are not going to be able to pull it out of the scriptures. I sometimes wonder if all of this about dispensationalism-if it took hold in America because of restoration cults who were pulling all these charts out to show the Lord is going to return on this date or that date-mainly because of the Millerites (Seventh Day Adventist) and the off shoot of that cult-Jehovah Witnesses. That would mainly be an anthropological point of study. It does seem that dispensationalism in America developed at the same time as these cults did. Getting off that rabbit trail, when in this sort of discussion, I always ask where to find dispensationalism taught in the scriptures and I never get any good biblical answers to show where this is taught. It should be the simplest thing to show but am never shown. So tell me, why can’t you appeal to the scriptures about this theology?

They hate Paul, that’s why.

All I know is, the Rapture can't be long from now.

And what Scripture do you base that on? Not on what newspaper-exegesis you have, but what Scripture teaches this. I see the King saying “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone,” (Mt 24:36; Mk 13:32)

​@@1754MeIn Matt 24 the disciples ask Jesus, what is the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? And goes on to give them signs to watch for. Paul in Thessalonians said, for we know that the day of the LORD comes as a thief, but you brothers are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief. You are children of the day and not of the night. Between these two passages and the fact that the bible in Romans Ch1 teaches that sin is progressive and there are downward stages to sin in which you know when the time for judgement has come. The fact that Israel is back in the land and antisemitism is growing among the nations. God is getting ready to deal with their sin of unbelief and rejection of God. These are just some of the signs.

@@paulhovan5466You are looking at all of these passages with Dispensational glasses on (what the video above provides the background on and is saying is a wrong approach to take). Regarding Mt 24:1-36, please read the parallel passages in the synoptic Gospels (Mark 13:1-37 and Luke 21:33) as this section is all about the destruction of the Temple by the Romans "within this generation" in 70AD. In Mark you will note that the Olivet Discourse is spoken only to 4 of the Disciples (Mk 13:3--Peter, James, John, and Andrew). The synoptic Gospels all say what the signs will be of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. All of the "signs" in this portion can be found as occurring within "this generation" and can be found as being fulfilled in the New Testament writings. (A good book to explore this is "Last Days Madness" by Gary DeMar. While I don't fully agree with his all of his conclusions, he does an excellent job providing the examples). Now Luke, who is writing to a Gentile, in Luke 21:20 says, “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near." While in Matthew, who is writing to a Jewish audience who knows the Hebrew idioms, says in Mt 24:15, “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)". These two passages are the same exact passage but Luke is explaining what the Hebrew idiom means to his Gentile reader. Thus, the "abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel" was already fulfilled in 70AD when Jerusalem was "surrounded by armies". I used to think in a similar way as you as I was taught only the Dispensational view. So I want to encourage you to just do a quick search on the internet for "Olivet Discourse parallel passages" in order to read them side by side to compare for yourself what they say. Also, many scholars believe that Revelation is John's Olivet Discourse since this important prophecy of Jesus is not recorded in the Gospel of John, and within Revelation you find many similar images--wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilence, famine, etc. The second half of the Olivet Discourse found in Matthew 24 (after verse 36) was a completely different sermon as can be found in Luke 17. Scholars know that Matthew writes in topical arrangements as he combines different sermons in 5 different sections. Now regarding Israel being back in the land, there is no prophecy stating that this has to happens at an "end time". This is what Dispensationalist teachers want you to believe, but it is not found anywhere. The land promises that God made to Israel originally were fulfilled in when Joshua led the descendants of Abraham into Palestine. As the book of Joshua records, “The Lord gave Israel ALL THE LAND HE HAD SWORN TO GIVE THEIR FOREFATHERS, and they took possession of it and settled there” (Joshua 21:43). See that all the land prophecy had been fulfilled also as stated again in Joshua 23:14, 1 Kings 8:56, and 1 Kings 4:20-21. Israel would only keep the land "if" they remained faithful to God, which one can see by simply reading the Old Testament that they were not faithful at keeping His commands. Read what would happen to them if they did not obey God's commands in Deut 28:15-68, or in Lev 18:24-28, or even in Jer 18:7-10. Blessings.

Shhhhhhhh! How dare you challenge the goobldygook in this interview with Scripture!!!!!

Interesting question. Though I’m sure the main point is that these two disagree with the system, which, at least in their minds, makes it dreadful. But great question. I was wondering the same thing.

I think the point on simplicity/complexity in the discussion was the paradox that the fundamentalist dispensationalists wanted to get back to the Bible and the straightforward reading of the text (simplicity). Yet, they simultaneously devoloped a complex systematic theology overwhich to read the text. Bible Prophecy conferences, teaching series, etc, often focused on the systematic theological teaching of dispensationalism and end times events on the "biblical" timeline. These were not things that came from a plain reading of the text, but based on reading texts by other texts by other texts and so on (systematic theology). I was trained in a local church that taught dispensationalism and by a bible institute/bible college and also studied at Mohler's school. So, I've seen the different approaches

@@sethdbeebe That’s an interesting point. I’m sure Dispensationalists would disagree with some of your characterizations, but an extremely interesting point. Out of curiosity, does Mohler’s institution exclusively teach from a Covenantal perspective? Or is there a diversity of perspective in terms of the meta-narrative and the Biblical framework?

@@toddstevens9667 True. I'm a dispensationalist and wholeheartedly disagree with almost all of the text in his comment.

Well here is a thought or two as to why "D" is a major distraction. 1. It misplaces the Kingdom of God ito its present status as enacted and inaugurated 2. It is almost always supported by a cessationist- and that creates huge issues because the power of the Gospel is focussed narrowly on the individual, and the transformation into the christian maturity of the induvidual and society is simply ignored- and the scope of D becomes indefensible...because its simply inadequate, when viewed against the magnum opus of God's restoration of his creatures and creation. 3. The overlap with Zionism is rightly described as toxic in its effect. And Christian Zionism excels in this regard. No supporter of the Gospel can not hesitate with the idea that violence is not the Kingdom way of change. Love in action is the root cause of change. If the church is silent - who will defend the weak, speak truth ( not political expediency) to power- and call it to account? Ask Ps Niemöller.... 4. Its linking of the gospel to imperialism is disastrous, really unforgiveable. The lack of grasp of the extent of the promise of the Seed. Its risk for example to Israel as a state is disastrous and the Palestinians ....and Palestinian Christians and the ME Church?? 5. The reek of Gnosticism pervades and this is usually visible in the way its supporters promote their views to the unenlightened and 6. The indefensible( actually risible idea of) rapture of the church and the biblical gymnastics required to support this view... I have wonderful Brethren friends. Their unfortunate history notwithstanding. We just dont engage on eschatology😊

I am among the Plymouth Brethren. I grew up under dispensationalism and have not left it. I have never read Tim LaHaye and only occasionally heard David Jerimiah on the radio. I find it odd that you consider them dispensational scholars. They are more like "fast food" than solid food when it comes to scholarly work. I do consider them to be fine Christians from all that I have heard. May I suggest someone like Dwight Pentecost and his book "Things to Come" or A.E. Booth and his chart on "The Course of Time from Eternity to Eternity"? Perhaps reading J.N. Darby or William Kelly or Sir Robert Anderson. These are the source of dispensational teaching. Sir Robert Anderson's book titled "The Coming Prince" is very helpful on Daniel's seventy weeks.

@@Saratogan Agreed, although I would say Harold Hoehner corrected some things in Anderson's approach, in his book Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ.

@@ThinkingGodsThoughts , thanks for the reference. I have read the section of his book on Daniel's 70 weeks and find it helpful. One observation is that the year must always be understood from God's perspective and not man's. The great chronological failure of the Jews coming out of the exile was the adoption of the Babylonian year cycle and the changing of the month names. God said to Moses that the first month of the year to Israel upon coming out of Egypt was to be Abib which was change to Nisan. God's year cycle is the key. God measures everything from the 1st day of Abib and focuses on the 10th and 14th days Abib which define Passover followed by the feast of First Fruits being the first day of the week following the week which contains the 14th day of Abib. Paul reinforces this for the church in 1 Cor 5:7 where he defines Christ as the personification of our Passover and in 1 Cor 15:20 where he defines Christ as the personification of the feast of First Fruits. This continues throughout the year and culminates with the feast of Tabernacles which corresponds to the millennium of rest of Revelation 20. This cycle, repeated year after year, is a constant reminder of the Divine plan of times and seasons.

New Covenant Whole Gospel: What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below. Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him. He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart. Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36) We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. 1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Watch the RU-vid videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.

What "Rapture Fail"? Harold Camping, Ed Whisenant, and others set dates that came and went, but LaHaye and Jeremiah have taken great care not to set dates. That said, I remember reading in the 1980s Hal Lindsey's book "The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon" and feeling I fell for a bait n' switch. Date setting is not a component of Dispensationalism, except to say we're a day closer today than we were yesterday. 🙂

Your comments are not true and you don't understand dispensationalism and you're mis representing its beliefs. Dispensationalism teaches we inherit and rule the earth at Christ's return the tribulation and wrath we are preserved. The rapture is NOT "secret" as you describe. It is called by paul a mystery

Argh! It is NOT a secret you silly man! It is plainly taught in 1st Thessalonians chapter 4, verse 16 - 18. "...caught up" --- it does NOT say the "R" word. Does your copy of the N.T. not have 1st Thessalonians, 4: 16-18?!?

​@@gusloader123 The Greek word is Harpozo, a sudden catching away. Harpozo translates to Rapture.

Paul uses the term Dispensation in his scriptures. "This Dispensation of GRACE..." Ephesians 3: 1-13 Ephesians 1: 10

The reason for dispensationalism is quite simply understood by the following: Abraham's faith in God's command to sacrifice Isaac was accounted to him for righteousness. The israelite's faith in the law given to them by moses was accounted to them for righteousness. Our faith today in Christ is accounted to us for righteousness. Abraham, Israel, and the church today all lived different lives. Israel had the earthly kingdom and government, they ruled by law and sword. The church has a spiritual kingdom, and we rule not on this earth but we are subject to authorities and governments. Israel conquered their enemies. We love our enemies. Israel was promised blessings when obeying the commandments, we are promised trials and tribulation for obeying the commandments -The world will hate you and persecute you for my name's sake. Remember this: The gospel of our salvation for this current age is that Christ died for our sins, and rose again the third day, of which we partake through faith and trust in His work; Whereby we are baptized into His death and resurrection by the Holy Spirit. We are no longer of this world, but still in it - the old man is crucified. Therefore I am no longer under the laws given to israel for righteousness and cleanliness, for I am now in Christ. The moral law still stands, dont get that wrong - while this flesh still stands morality still exists. Good and evil. But the laws which Israel had as a society and a kingdom do not apply to us, for we have no kingdom of heaven, but the kingdom of God.

Amen. Context, context, context. Audience relevance.

You are correct.

Beautiful response. I said something similar to this earlier in the thread. I’ll take it further; the gate Paul and seek to diminish him. He preaches salvation by grace through faith, antithetical to hierarchical structures of Christianity and the Body of Christ, and the liberty of the believer in Christ not under the law… or their made up laws!

*they hate Paul…

I have that book. What I don't understand, is why Ryrie puts such emphasis on the words "Israel" and "Church", writing: "The dispensationalist studies the words [“Israel” and “Church”] in the New Testament, finds that they are kept distinct, and therefore concludes that when the Church was introduced God did not abrogate His promises to Israel nor enmesh them into the Church. This is why the dispensationalist recognizes two purposes of God and insists in maintaining the distinction between Israel and the Church. And all of this is built on an inductive study of the use of the two words, not a scheme superimposed on the Bible. In other words, it is built on a consistent use of the literal, normal, or plain method of interpretation without the addition of any other principle that will attempt to give respectability to some preconceived conclusions. Dispensationalism is a result of consistent application of the basic hermeneutical principle of literal, normal, or plain interpretation. No other system of theology can claim this." (page 96 in my copy) The Greek word "ekklesia" is usually translated "Church" in the NT, but not always. In Acts 7:38, ekklesia is used in reference to Israel. The word ekklesia is also found throughout the Septuagint (Greek OT at the time of Jesus). I find Ryrie's reasoning here very strange. Is he even considering that a Greek reader would read ekklesia in both the OT and the NT? It's not like a new Greek noun was introduced to describe a new and unique new covenant group of people.

And that is a terrible hermeneutic to have on such a genre... (also true for prophetic literature in general). That said, let those who have itching ears receive their just desserts.

It is the only hermeneutic that bows before God's Words@@kb27787

Considering that the Revelation is written in Hebrew apocalyptic,the deeply symbolic style of the prophets.

Revelation identifies itself to be a prophecy. Its quotations reveal it to be a culmination of Scripture. Every other example of apocalyptic literature has features completely incompatible with Divine Revelation. ehh, Not apocalyptic. It is an unfolding drama that exalts Christ. Interpret symbols but don't make clear statements symbolic or specific numbers symbolic!@@mdhorton9

@@kb27787so if all of the prophecies concerning Christ’s first coming were fulfilled literally, why won’t the ones concerning his second coming? Those are just symbolic or allegorical?

While I don’t think Gary is a pastor, that would be a fascinating and spicy video to watch!

Why not just read your bible. Paul is given his gospel starting in acts 9 and end with the rapture.

@@kevinboutwell2243 There is no solid evidence of a pre tribulational rapture located anywhere within the pages of the Bible, no less in Luke’s book of acts and no less from Paul himself.

@@kevinboutwell2243 Okay, where exactly in the Bible does Paul specifically “end with the rapture?” Which chapter and verses does Paul tell us about a pre-trib rapture??? Please show me where Paul tells us that a rapture is coming. I’ll be right over there, patiently waiting for your response. I doubt you’ll return with an answer definitive answer. What Paul actually explains is Christ’s SECOND COMING in both 1st & 2 Thessalonians. That evidence is clear, but a rapture??? Naaah.

This reply link is not working for me. When I click reply it brings me to the screen you scroll down through 1000 plus responses. I cant do that

​@@kevinboutwell2243The apostle Paul preached the same gospel as the twelve, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ the Lord. Forgiveness and eternal life through faith in the Lord Jesus. The apostle Paul says explicitly that they preached the same gospel. If you deny this you reject the witness of the apostle, therefore the Lord. If you say the apostle Peter preached a different gospel, you bear false witness against an apostle of Jesus Christ.

Amazing, isn’t it? 😂