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‘World-first’ grid-scale sodium-ion battery revealed with higher energy density 

The Electric Viking
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‘World-first’ grid-scale sodium-ion battery revealed with higher energy density
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27 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 134   
@john_in_phoenix
@john_in_phoenix Год назад
Energy density doesn't really matter for grid storage. The key is when the production line is actually producing instead of a "next year" talking point. How many cycles and the cost of production are what matter.
@fuzzywzhe
@fuzzywzhe 9 месяцев назад
I'm doubtful. First, it's in China, and China is well known for frauds. Second, sodium ion batteries are still an unproven technology.
@neutronpcxt372
@neutronpcxt372 Год назад
For anyone wanting to understand this in greater detail, Great Power revealed a few weeks ago on its website that they've managed to breach 150Wh/kg for their cylindrical 26650 SIB cell product and 165-170Wh/kg for their large primastic cell format, both rated at 3000 cycles down to 80% capacity at 100% DOD. These cells have a cathode based on layered metal oxides, like NMC/NCA/LCO in lithium ion cells. Their other innovation has been increasing the cycle life of their polyanion (olivine cathode, like LFP) cathode based cells to 6000 cycles down to 80% capacity at 100% DOD. In essence: 150-170Wh/kg 3000 cycles for the sodium "'NMC" equivalent. ? Wh/kg (probably 120Wh/kg) for the sodium "LFP" equivalent.
@kirkellis4329
@kirkellis4329 Год назад
Do you know what the volumetric energy density is ? Wh/L for the sodium cells ? What voltage and Ah for the 26650 cells ?
@neutronpcxt372
@neutronpcxt372 Год назад
@@kirkellis4329 No idea for the for the 26650 cells, but I do have 26700 3.5Ah SIB cells on the way that are 130Wh/kg and about 290Wh/L. If we were to scale this to the Great Power cells, an equivalent 26700 cell would be 4Ah and about 330Wh/L.
@yogamon
@yogamon 11 месяцев назад
Probably nmt and nvp sodium cathodes for nmc and lfp lithium cathode equivalents
@yggdrasil9039
@yggdrasil9039 Год назад
Na Ion batteries could also be used in farm equipment and mining and industry in colder climates, where a recharge station was on hand.
@frankszanto
@frankszanto Год назад
Hey Viking, at 3:05 you say these batteries have 150 MW/kg. Now that really would be a game changer! We could replace Eraring Power Station with 15kg. Did you perhaps mean W/kg?
@reiniernn9071
@reiniernn9071 Год назад
My information tells me : 1,5MJ/kg. or ca 0,5KWH/kg...(which is 1,8MJ/kg) Oh, we never have something as W/kg...only Wh/kg.
@philiptaylor7902
@philiptaylor7902 Год назад
Thank you Sam, really appreciate the work you do.
@electricviking
@electricviking Год назад
I appreciate that!
@StevenSiew2
@StevenSiew2 Год назад
I will take this story with lots of grains of salt.
@freetorobandloot
@freetorobandloot Год назад
See what you did there. Lol
@LunaTechLV
@LunaTechLV Год назад
😂😂😂
@Peye-pv4cb
@Peye-pv4cb Год назад
Is the sodium actually from salt mines they will use in the batteries
@arjunratnadev
@arjunratnadev Год назад
lots of salt bags
@dugfriendly
@dugfriendly Год назад
I work at an investor owned electric & gas utility in the USA. We have a whole division at a dedicated campus working grid storage - gonna be a lot of dough to the early successes that scale out 😎
@armineser2591
@armineser2591 Год назад
Can you please mention kW and kWh correctly.
@iandavies4853
@iandavies4853 Год назад
Yes. Energy density cited as 150 Watt-hour per kg.
@jimparr01Utube
@jimparr01Utube Год назад
Actually it's a tad worse than that as a blooper. @3:05, Sam said 160MW/kG.
@robertfonovic3551
@robertfonovic3551 Год назад
Viking doesn't do accuracy. Just waffles on 😂
@mb-3faze
@mb-3faze Год назад
@@robertfonovic3551 I've learned to let these small verbal typos just slide by. He churns these 'news' clips out so fast, I don't think there's much editing done. :)
@aadvanherk1271
@aadvanherk1271 Год назад
​@@jimparr01UtubeMega, Milli or kW, kWh whats the difference ???
@alexishart1989
@alexishart1989 Год назад
Pretty sure that's 150kwh not 150MW per kilo.
@kkarllwt
@kkarllwt Год назад
What do you expect from a guy who makes 3 videos a day for 2 years ? You are being unreasonable.
@StevenSiew2
@StevenSiew2 Год назад
Dont be so salty.
@Harrythehun
@Harrythehun Год назад
Is even your statement about kW true? Isn’t it Wh/kg or litre.
@deaconblue949
@deaconblue949 Год назад
That's the game changing nuclear ion battery 😂
@croakingembryo
@croakingembryo Год назад
Pretty sure that's 150Wh, not 150kWh per kilo.
@lesnypatrol7292
@lesnypatrol7292 Год назад
3:09 150 MemgaWatts per kg :) 150 Wh should be
@krzysztofbaus1311
@krzysztofbaus1311 Год назад
What about safety aspect? I've heard that they don't explode don't burn. Is that correct? That would be a massive advantage.
@chillfluencer
@chillfluencer Год назад
LiFePo⁴ and Sodium-Ion batteries neither burn nor explode. A small puff and a tiny little bit of smoke. There are countless videos that check that by doing damage to the batteries in whatever kind you think of. Burning and exploding was a problem of unprotected Li-Ion and Li-Po batteries...which you asa user can't even get any more today.
@SolAce-nw2hf
@SolAce-nw2hf Год назад
@@chillfluencer LiFePo⁴ will still burn, but it is much less likely and much slower, as NMC has a 20x faster thermal runaway. Sodium-Ion will be very difficult to set on fire, but charged it is not impossible. Just drive it into a volcano.
@SolAce-nw2hf
@SolAce-nw2hf Год назад
@@orionbetelgeuse1937According to the big battery manufacturers the latest sodium batteries should have no thermal runaway and can handle extremely high temperatures. LFP still has thermal runaway, be it at 275 degrees Celcius at a much slower rate than NMC. This means LFP will keep itself burning, whereas Sodium battery fires will need external heat to keep burning if you manage to set it on fire. To be fair, I still need proof of that. The LFP fire test is silly. I want to see how it survived a car crash and an external ignition source.
@robertfonovic3551
@robertfonovic3551 Год назад
Welcome to the Fantasy Battery Channel.
@aprapet7218
@aprapet7218 Год назад
Energy density does matter. It matters, because it costs to build a battery pack using rack, bms, cables, etc. For the same capacity you need to have 2-3 packs. I assume, the inverter and charger will also need to be dedicated for that kind of chemistry. I have not found any cells or packs for sale til now. For some huge energy storage it make sense now, bot for home home energy storage not yet.
@johnsmithfakename8422
@johnsmithfakename8422 9 месяцев назад
Sodium Ion batteries are very interesting and I can not wait for the technology to mature. They seem ideal for stationary, or lower weight sensitive energy storage. I am pretty sure these batteries will be used in applications where -30 degree Celsius (-22 degree Fahrenheit) is expected.
@garyrooksby
@garyrooksby Год назад
Vey interesting and well researched, Sam
@anthonyhall7019
@anthonyhall7019 Год назад
I would love for you to go into the safety of install and maintenance of large scale grids like this
@richardyoung8526
@richardyoung8526 Год назад
Energy Density of150 MW/kg is double trouble. By two orders of magnitude and the perennial confusion between power and energy. He means 150 Wh/kg RMY
@sampleoffers1978
@sampleoffers1978 Год назад
If the salt is storing heat to make it work, a car can recapture heat many ways including condensed air released to make mechanical electrostatic energy and friction heat...but also bacteria with moisture should also help the charging if corrosion has been eliminated. In a house mechanical energy should be possible with hour glass/flywheel designs etcs....It seems less about storage capacity of battery vs ease of recharging and slowly discharging. Gravity,mechanical friction,wind,waste heat and magnetism should allow for easy charging of salt batteries.
@martinwinlow
@martinwinlow 10 месяцев назад
Puzzled to hear your thoughts about the price of Li (ie going up). I only see it coming down more and more over time as more and more lithium mines come on stream.
@mike160543
@mike160543 Год назад
A fairly average fossil fuel generator produces 600 megawatts of electricity, 24/7. Renewables, wind and solar produce an average of less than 50% if their maximum output over a 24 hour period. So, to replace a fossil plant the renewable would have to have a peak production of 1.2 gigawatts. The battery would have to store 600*12/1000= 7.2 Gigawatt hours. And that is not allowing for winter sun or windless days. 5 megawatts is Not grid scale
@polarbear7255
@polarbear7255 Год назад
Absolutely spot on… at the scale we need for the grid batteries are a waste of time and resources. A nuclear reactor can generate far more energy from far less material for longer than any battery would ever achieve. Nuclear is also zero emissions and the waste volume is tiny and can be reprocessed. What happens to the square kms of these batteries in 30 years when they are used up? Recycled? The materials? Labour? Waste? Environmental impact? None of these things ever get discussed.
@N0rdman
@N0rdman Год назад
160 Watthours not MEGAWatthours per kilo, normal EVs have a battery pack of a couple hundred kilos and between 54 kW to 85 kW, otherwise, they would have several MWs installed.
@charlesolinger9735
@charlesolinger9735 Год назад
Sounds promising for the future. I would expect the "best" experimental battery tech to be on super car/hyper car EV's.
@northernseeker1822
@northernseeker1822 Год назад
Sodium ion battery is heavier and bigger than lithium.
@andromedach
@andromedach Год назад
Lithium prices will stabilize and not really spike unless a conflict locks up a large reserve. more reserves have been identified and recycling is taking off to where it is cheaper than manufacturing lithium
@tatradak9781
@tatradak9781 Год назад
This is great news.. This is the future..Na-Ion are totally safe no fire, no freezing, no issue energy cell. The customer once they know it will demand Na-Ion.
@shanson23
@shanson23 Год назад
Can you do a story on the "Alpha Motors - Wolf EV Truck"?
@teardowndan5364
@teardowndan5364 11 месяцев назад
I'd love to slap Na-ion batteries in my UPSes and hopefully have 15+ years of useful life instead of swapping out SLAs every ~6 years because those things go bad just sitting on shelves. Since Na-ion is supposedly a whole lot more stable than anything lithium-based, Na-ion will hopefully become readily available through official retail channels instead of forcing people to go through the Alibaba hit-or-miss lottery.
@frederichweidemann7912
@frederichweidemann7912 Год назад
I believe Na-Ion batteries is key for the next energy revolution. Which listed companies can you invest in to make sure you get a piece of this economy?
@litestuffllc7249
@litestuffllc7249 Год назад
A possible savior for BEVs. If they can manage to get the energy density and longivity .. it should be scalable unlike Lithium which uses too much water. Lots of cheap sodium around. The entire question alike a lot of battery claims is .. will they produce something that is compeditive? so far.. we have no car with it in producation.
@chriskwakernaat2328
@chriskwakernaat2328 10 месяцев назад
main problem is voltage , it's lower than lithium. so not a drop in replacement.
@smde1
@smde1 Год назад
Have you ever tested a battery? We can read marketing sheets too.
@MrGMawson2438
@MrGMawson2438 Год назад
Morning mate
@peterking8564
@peterking8564 Год назад
Altec Batteries are doing this too
@ricnyc2759
@ricnyc2759 Год назад
Sodium? I still prefer Vegemite.
@pedrobustamante2181
@pedrobustamante2181 Год назад
Hola, alguien a probado estas baterias que se venden por aliexpress o alibaba si realmente son de sodio y que concluciones pudo sacar ?
@anglosaxonmike8325
@anglosaxonmike8325 Год назад
85% of UK drivers will not buy a dangerous battery banger.
@8spores
@8spores Год назад
UK is not relevant today
@LithiumBatteryGuy
@LithiumBatteryGuy Год назад
Great Power, is 100 times smaller than CATL. This could be some exaggeration by GP
@antonanton5503
@antonanton5503 Год назад
As I mentioned 2 years ago
@heinviljoen8698
@heinviljoen8698 Год назад
You energy density numbers are off, can't be megawatt per kilogram. perhaps 150 watt hour per kilogram?
@philipsigglekow7828
@philipsigglekow7828 Год назад
So many changes happening very exciting
@bkm83442
@bkm83442 Год назад
Polyanion is pronounced "poly-ann-eye-on".
@mickydee26
@mickydee26 Год назад
$$$/kg?
@jamnation6005
@jamnation6005 Год назад
I think each backseat should have a small set of paddles and children should be forced to pedal charge the car while it travels
@frgv4060
@frgv4060 Год назад
I don’t know you, but I am so tired of “wills” and “mays” that I am in the process of having 0 expectations and the more the fanfare the less I have hopes. Not to speak that China is big in its mouth.
@gangleweed
@gangleweed Год назад
Nothing mentioned about the voltage for sodium ion cells or the energy capacity or the charging time compared to the established lithium type......without a comparison the specs are meaningless..........I suppose it's more pie in the sky.
@malcolmrickarby2313
@malcolmrickarby2313 Год назад
Not really relevant for stationary storage. It’s more about cost and safety.😊
@SolAce-nw2hf
@SolAce-nw2hf Год назад
Generally Sodium batteries will be able to charge and discharge faster and higher/lower in a wider range of temperatures. So this makes them better for just about anything that needs to work fast and hard in harsh conditions. Not sure about this particular version, but in stationary use you just scale out when more peak power or storage capacity is needed.
@henniebecker2412
@henniebecker2412 9 месяцев назад
Error Error...!!! You make an error of 1000 000x The energy density of these battery is 150Wh per kg NOT 150MWh per kg... Wake up Viking ...!!! You are giving electricity a bad name...
@KianFloppa
@KianFloppa 4 месяца назад
what
@mb-3faze
@mb-3faze Год назад
CATL is rather the opposite of Toyota - Toyota is just all talk and vaporware. CATL take a more Missourian approach.
@brentftaylor
@brentftaylor Год назад
If you don’t think sodium has much energy, just search for sodium thrown in water!
@robertn2951
@robertn2951 Год назад
Get a chemistry degree. It's my advice to you.
@jerry4254
@jerry4254 11 месяцев назад
Lithium is a salt so you are replacing a salt battery with a salt battery. Wow that was a leap. There are plenty of types of salt. When will we move to Crystal fusion? OH Yea: Zero point is not allowed.
@chillfluencer
@chillfluencer Год назад
Sodium-Ion batteries, 6th generation...and LiFePo⁴ will be finally outdated.
@SolAce-nw2hf
@SolAce-nw2hf Год назад
I hope so. Having a car that just works in cold weather is a lot better. Also, it will do a lot less damage to the environment. Mining Lithium by itself is not very eco friendly.
@I_fuck_moms_of_CIA_trolls.
@I_fuck_moms_of_CIA_trolls. Год назад
1:30 The city's name QingDao is NOT pronounced "queen dao", but "ching dao"!
@fredtan1506
@fredtan1506 Год назад
We should revert to Wade-Giles; forget Pinyin, it is very confusing, diffiicult to learn.
@I_fuck_moms_of_CIA_trolls.
@I_fuck_moms_of_CIA_trolls. Год назад
@@fredtan1506 No. Anything is difficult to those who don't want to learn.
@LJ-jq8og
@LJ-jq8og Год назад
Who cares ❗ how it is pronounced ... Get a LIFE 🤣
@I_fucked_moms_of_CIA_trolls.
​​@@LJ-jq8og You should and will care! Goh pfoch urcelph, emogurl!
@wylu9717
@wylu9717 Год назад
Pinyin in this case corrected the one of the. inconsistency of English pronunciations. Q is always pronounced as “ch” as in children, not “ch” in character. Pinyin would be a K if it was the “ch” as in character.
@alfred-vz8ti
@alfred-vz8ti 10 месяцев назад
pronounced 'ching dao.' 'q' is 'ch' sound in mandarin. .
@marinusk67
@marinusk67 Год назад
It is probably the best , kill's the competition , better than everything else and blablabla 🥱
@Thunderbuck
@Thunderbuck Год назад
What excites me most about sodium is it eliminates the need for lithium in these large-scale stationary applications, freeing the lithium supply up for mobility.
@yggdrasil9039
@yggdrasil9039 Год назад
Iron Air batteries have very very low energy density, but it's spectacularly cheap. The batteries can be stacked on top of each other to reduce the overall battery's footprint.
@JoeyBlogs007
@JoeyBlogs007 11 месяцев назад
Sodium ion batteries will replace Lithium ion in EV batteries, once the the super fast charging network is mature and fully deployed across the nation in sufficient saturation. EV Range anxiety simply wont exist once the charging network is fully mature. Sodium is far more abundant than Lithium, cheaper, can charge faster and is safer and works better in winter. Most drivers don't even travel 230 km per day ( representing the lowest storage density of 160 Wh/kg ). For the rare times when people do need to go longer distances, they could hire a car. If they regularly travel longer distances, they could buy a hybrid EV. There's a solution for every use case. On that basis Sodium ion batteries could service a significant chunk of the EV market. Sodium ion batteries would also be great for grid backup storage.
@RWBHere
@RWBHere Год назад
150 Megawatts per kilo?? Don't you mean 150 Watt-hours per kilo, or something close to that?
@gamerjay6624
@gamerjay6624 Год назад
Is this todays new game changer, world first, breakthrough technology blah blah blah or just until the next one pops up in a couple of hours?
@SolAce-nw2hf
@SolAce-nw2hf Год назад
Developing this kind of stuff takes many years. A lot of the news is out there to satisfy shareholders and attract investors. It will come and it will change everything, just not today.
@GolLeeMe
@GolLeeMe Год назад
If sodium batteries can be done at scale and with less impact on the environment, then this is a welcome development. I am not holding my breathe through. What’s really ticking me off are the stats I read recently. In Oz we apparently dispose of some 3300 metric tons of Li Ion batteries, from all devises (including EVs) each year, but only 10% is recycled, and the disposal is growing at 20% per annum. That means 3000 tons goes to landfill. So much for recyclers that can’t get enough of the stuff, as its a valuable product. Whats the state of our stewardship rules and recycling regulations? If these stats are true then I would hate to see them repeated year on year even though 95% can be reused in the things. Tell me what these things are, as I would love too know.
@themonsterunderyourbed9408
@themonsterunderyourbed9408 Год назад
In what? 30+ years?
@jb5music
@jb5music 9 месяцев назад
Yeeah just think of the benefits of sodium ion chemistry grid scale battery systems.. IF YOU GET IN A CRASH with your GRID SCALE BATTERY SYSTEM... 🤪 or you park your GRID SCALE SODIUM ION BATTERY SYSTEM... in your garage... or on a car carrier... THINK OF THE BENEFITS. I'm sure that's why they came up with sodium ion batteries... FOR GRID SCALE BATTERY SYSTEMS. Duh
@carrievh8686
@carrievh8686 Год назад
Does sodium ion have much of an advantage for grid storage over things like pumped water, heat storage, or vanadium redox (the last of which CATL is also making)?
@sebyst7907
@sebyst7907 Год назад
Frequency control, and like last year, if it's a dry summer, pumped storage and hydropower was very negatively impacted, can't really happen with sodium batteries
@fritzbloedow29
@fritzbloedow29 Год назад
No moving parts is a big advantage...
@caperider1160
@caperider1160 10 месяцев назад
Seriously... This is laughable! Sodium batteries may potentially find some good use in ESS. That is, if China can deliver what they claim. But not for high-performance EVs. Atomic # of Sodium 11 Atomic # of Lithium 3 Sodium cathode materials will have to be about 4 times heavier to hold the same amount of charge as Lithium. This is a fundamental fact one can not change thru technological advances. And this is why you should not sleep in your Chenistry classes.
@davidherbert5027
@davidherbert5027 Год назад
Sam, please stop mixing Mega-Watts and Mega-Watt hours. To quote the storage capacity of a battery in Mega-Watts is meaningless. Mega-Watts measure power, not energy. I enjoy your show. Don't stop.
@anthonyhall7019
@anthonyhall7019 Год назад
When is someone going to take on Duracell or energizer? Seems absolutely ridiculous that nobody has uprooted that market......
@12villages
@12villages Год назад
The problem with the chip industry and the battery industry is that both have a cartel that monopolizes these technologies. Battery embargo is worse than oil embargo.
@stevemccormack9948
@stevemccormack9948 Год назад
They need to get to market quick. Right now EVs are too expensive and not fit for purpose
@keangwooichoo6138
@keangwooichoo6138 Год назад
Yep, that is what I heard
@johnfrancis4401
@johnfrancis4401 Год назад
Sodium is much more reactive than lithium. Sodium’s mass (23) is higher than Lithium (7) but sodium is hugely abundant in sea water as part of the ionic molecule Sodium Chloride. So it is much cheaper.
@andreasklossek9252
@andreasklossek9252 Год назад
3:48 Energydensity is not that high of a priority on a static storage solution. Mostly, there is space, weight don´t matter. Lifecycle and other stuff is way more important on that point. 160 Wh/kg is by far not much. But sufficent on that point.
@camronrubin8599
@camronrubin8599 Год назад
cheap batteries for everyone! What if we manage to make a silica anode sodium iron battery 😮 I can’t wait to see what 2040 looks like if earth doesn’t experience Armageddon
@ub59
@ub59 Год назад
I wonder what the discharge time will be? Most grid batteries work hourly with a storage period of four to eight hours, which is very convenient for instant fluctuations in demand. However, the Form Energy iron-air battery can store and discharge over a period of 100 hours, making it an ideal "long-term" storage battery. Perhaps sectioning off grid battery sites into short term and long term types of chemistries would help counter the oil industry paid fear mongering out there about intermittency. If anything, grid storage over a 4-100 hour range with millisecond response times would instil genuine fear in fossil fuel investors.
@lezbriddon
@lezbriddon Год назад
not heard much about silicon chemistry's in a while, its a shame they could never get it elastic enough to get the charge cycles
@justcastro
@justcastro Год назад
problem with sodium batteries is the charging cycle. only half of that of lithium battery
@jonathanfields4ever
@jonathanfields4ever Год назад
Is that true? I’ve always heard they have more
@kongwee1978
@kongwee1978 Год назад
Sodium does have more, but for China ones are less as usual. @@jonathanfields4ever
@SolAce-nw2hf
@SolAce-nw2hf Год назад
That was the problem. This needed to be solved, as grid storage discharges and charges much more frequently. It is like comparing todays Lithium batteries with lithium batteries from 20 years ago. Also, there are many different chemistries of Sodium-Ion being developed (about 15 competitors, last I checked). They know that Lithium mining will never be able to keep up with demand if people all switch to EV's This would make their batteries super expensive and it will just run out or at least become very expensive to mine in low concentration ore.
@justcastro
@justcastro Год назад
@@jonathanfields4ever yep. they have fewer charge cycles and energy density is also lower. but way way cheaper than lithium batteries. I think they are better for home use than EV.
@jonathanfields4ever
@jonathanfields4ever Год назад
@@justcastro If for home use, they’d have to have a high capacity to overcome the low cycle life, but I guess if they’re cheap then making them big would be no problem. I thought they had longer cycle life, but at the cost of far lower gravimetric energy density.
@Carl-lb2sd
@Carl-lb2sd Год назад
Is there a place for both..like diesel and gasoline?
@bearcubdaycare
@bearcubdaycare Год назад
An article that I read mentioned them even being mixed in the same battery pack, to tailor the pack to the right balance of characteristics...energy density, cost, performance in the cold, etc.... depending on the application.
@malcolmrickarby2313
@malcolmrickarby2313 Год назад
There’s no longer any place for petrol and diesel.🔥🌏
@SolAce-nw2hf
@SolAce-nw2hf Год назад
Sodium Ion will decrease demand for Lithium Ion. That may keep the two in balance for now. But I am holding off on home batteries as I do not think Lithium is the right choice. As Sodium-Ion becomes better and cheaper, I think it will be the most logical choice for mass production. Sodium supply is practically limitless.
@SolAce-nw2hf
@SolAce-nw2hf Год назад
​@@malcolmrickarby2313 Of course there is. It will take decades to replace all of it. But it is inevitable, even if it takes 50 years.
@malcolmrickarby2313
@malcolmrickarby2313 Год назад
@@SolAce-nw2hf unfortunately we have run out of time. The last couple of months should have made that very clear. Fires all over the northern hemisphere. Record temperatures on land and in the oceans. Sea ice not forming at the poles. We have had thirty years to transition smoothly but we have blown it. 🏝🔥
@datamatters8
@datamatters8 Год назад
fyi. -- poly ann i on
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