“Nobody Involved Was Capable Of Understanding Horizon System” | Post Office Scandal

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CEOs of Post Office and Fujitsu are scheduled to be questioned by MPs regarding the Horizon scandal. The Business and Trade Committee of Parliament will convene on Tuesday to explore further actions that can be taken to ensure compensation for victims of what has been deemed the most significant miscarriage of justice in British history.
Nick Read, the CEO of the Post Office, and Paul Patterson, Head of Europe at Fujitsu, have both been confirmed to appear. The Horizon scandal resulted in over 700 subpostmasters and subpostmistresses receiving criminal convictions due to faulty Fujitsu accounting software, which falsely indicated missing money at their branches.
Peter Cardwell speaks with Fellow at the Society of Antiquaries London, Guy De La Bedoyere.
#news #politics #technology #fujitsu #money #talktv #talkradio

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26 июн 2024

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Комментарии : 181

@paulslater9061 5 месяцев назад

New technology is no excuse for the Post Office not being able to use their common sense

@yj5666 5 месяцев назад

As a former software engineer(Not Fujitsu), I am concerned that unpredictable failures could negatively impact people's lives. Since hearing this news, I have been experiencing anxiety. It's challenging to create perfect software. I chose to become an engineer because software can alleviate the burden of stressful paperwork. Currently, I am developing medical AI, and I hope that my AI can improve people's health. However, I worry that my mistakes may pose a risk to somebody's life. I advocate for more funding to ensure thorough checks on AI and software, allowing sufficient time for development.

@user-hp8it3mm6p 5 месяцев назад

@@yj5666 Mate it's a jungle out there. Leave your heart at home and go to war. You're a small fish in a big pond but you can be the King of your dumpster if you want to. Namaste.

@parker-ii7fg 5 месяцев назад

Michael Keegan, the husband of the current education sectary (Gillian Keegan) was the former CEO of Fujitsu. Fujistsu is a central partner of Infosys, which is owned by Rishi Sunak's father in law. The level of corruption involved in this is simply astonishing.

@OH2023-cj9if 5 месяцев назад

It's now infiltrated the criminal justice system. It is behind Common Platform, the failed and faulty software run in Magistrates and Crown Courts. No audit control so they can access and tamper when they like. They have access to all criminal records and files and can change the content. No one can trace this. Users are blamed for mistakes and public safety issues caused. MOJ has said staff ate responsible for anything thay happens and they must find workarounds to prevent problems. This is so wrong ad the MOJ and HMCTS staff are being treated the same as post office staff were. MOJ has been instructed to use unemployable staff and troublemakers to be in a working party to shout and and criticise staff for errors they know are being caused by faulty software.

@blackislepeas 5 месяцев назад

@@greyfriars6540 Fujitsu bought out ICL who were the default contractor for National and Local Governments, mainly dominated by large contracts from the Post Office, Inland Revenue, DWP and the MOD. Even 40 years ago it was well known that if ICL were bidding then even if you got invited you knew it was a waste of your time.

@beammeup8458 5 месяцев назад

They are all in bed together !!

@gwyneth7812 5 месяцев назад

I also hear that the solicitors involved in the PO sub postmasters bankruptcy's, were the same solicitors that were involved in the bankruptcy's of the banking frauds. Both banking frauds and PO were owned or partly owned by the government. Asset stripping from the poor, decent people on a massive scale.

@user-hp8it3mm6p 5 месяцев назад

Michael Keegan's LinkedIn profile shows that he is actually employed by the UK Government since 2019. Something very fishy is going on here, with CBE's and Government jobs handed on a platter to those who were effectively commiting crimes. Blair likely received a massive bribe from Fujitsu and this massive cover-up is the result. Blair is also that same guy who went on to invade Iraq only to pillage their oil. Excellent track record. Surely Fujitsu is also supplying the MoD big time. They all have the blood of innocents in their hands and you've paid for it all. Now go and vote.

@harryhill8543 5 месяцев назад

I disagree with this notion that nobody understood horizon. This was not a technology problem but a person problem. They knew it didnt work and they hid the fact and they almost got away with it. The idea this was anything other than deliberate lying simply lets the liars off the hook. As enthusiastic as this man is, his hypothesis simply does not fit with the situation at the post office. This is proven by the fact that the independent investigators found out the issue and the post office tried to bury the report. If they didnt understand the problem, why hide the report?

@roxorange6022 5 месяцев назад

Yes agree. There are people who do understand IT systems. There must have been a Post Office IT department who would have known about and understood the issue - speaking as an IT professional. I'd love to hear from the PO technical staff responsible for business as usual work on the Horizon software. I've been involved in bad IT projects with unsuitable vendors that were pushed ahead when they shouldn't have been. I wasn't involved but there was a teacher's payroll system Novopay implemented in 2012 (NZ) that doled out the wrong pay or no pay in some cases to 8000 teachers with 90% of schools affected. The vendor stated there was no “systematic system failure”. However after the enquiry it was uncovered the Go Live decision was made when it was clear that not all testing had been completed; systems development was continuing through the code freeze right up to Go Live; the sector was not sufficiently ready etc etc I believe they are still sorting it out.

@garylake1676 5 месяцев назад

You answer your own question, no one did understand Horizon, and I think everyone at the Post Office was scared of it What is fascinating for me, is that the Post Office HR Department was not doing a review to understand why they were choosing so many thieves, that, in of itself, was worthy of review It is clear to me, that it was the lack of ‘innocent until proven guilty culture’ that brought the situation to this juncture

@stephenbaxter3369 5 месяцев назад

My conclusion is that Horizon could never work. It was fundamentally flawed.

@garylake1676 5 месяцев назад

@@stephenbaxter3369 I don’t think it’s difficult to set up a software system that balances each branches transactions at the end of each day, it’s binary, nothing more nothing less, Fujitsu clearly got it wrong in the planning stages and the system did not cascade down from fundamentals such as balancing accounts What would have happened is this would have been built from the bottom up, with various departments working on different aspects of the Post Office business model, and Fujitsu failed to knit all the data components together, but in the transition period, (which is probably where they still are twenty odd years on), they were making manual adjustments, which they did not understand, as they were not accountants that understood such matters as double entry bookkeeping, which is why branches saw negative balances double wheh they were meant to get wiped out Fujitsu got it wrong, the Post Office chose to trust their IT providers rather than their people at the coal face

@andybrice2711 5 месяцев назад

@@roxorange6022 Yes, but this was an IT system which was fundamentally broken, in a way which took years to resolve. If anyone had understood it to a reasonable level, those bugs would've been quickly identified and fixed. Yes there was lying. But the lying was to cover up the fact that they couldn't understand the software they had developed.

@HomerSlated 5 месяцев назад

I grew up during the so-called Golden Age of Home Computing, the era that essentially birthed all of today's tech giants. It was the bedroom programmers of that era who are now the captains of the tech industry. Back then, I was bursting with enthusiasm for technology. Today, I violently despise all of it. Technology is a blight on humanity. Most notably, it has completely dehumanised us into a mob of anti-social misanthropes, transformed us into hapless sheeple who "own nothing and are happy", and has enslaved us with products and services we are totally dependent on, and yet apparently have no rights to repair or maintain autonomously, even if we did have the knowledge, skills and equipment to do so, which we don't (by design). It's a vile, dystopian nightmare that Orwell himself could barely have predicted. And we are living in it, right now. Something like this scandal was always bound to happen. Unfortunately it's probably far too late to fix it. There will be a brief cry of outrage, a few people will get fined, and we will all promptly forget all about it and go back to our cages, until the next time.

@joysimpson3947 5 месяцев назад

700 postmasters suddenly stealing and no one thought to prosecute the technology not the employees. We are living in a time when everyone relies and regrettably trust the computer screen completely without question or deeper critical thinking.

@Robert-ux5yk 5 месяцев назад

What really I can't figure out, or dismays me... If the sub postmasters couldn't balance the books including a whole village...why weren't there any accountants involved? & if these sub postmasters were truly believing they were wrong...then it's a tragedy of enormous proportions that such trusting & naive people were played with basically

@yj5666 5 месяцев назад

If the bug caused a problem, why was the entire branch affected?"

@keithsewell8389 5 месяцев назад

Important technical / historical insights. Get this man on again, please!

@nobbycheeseman2915 5 месяцев назад

People who don't understand how the systems work in the business, should never be employed in high up jobs in the business. Surely that is a 'given'?

@palemale2501 5 месяцев назад

Cover ups of corruption and embarrassing decisions and failures - explains the disaster origin. They were willing to sacrifice thousands of innocents to save face and it is revoltingly evil. That they continued the slaughter for over 18 years because they could not fix it, is insanity.

@TheLincolnrailsplitt 5 месяцев назад

It is chilling to learn that there are AI devotees who want AI to perform the role of judges and justices sometime in the future.

@barneyrubble1964 5 месяцев назад

I know enough IT (after nearly 40 years in the industry). That NO automated system should entirely left to itself and the degree to which that is true depends on the downside. So self driving cars should always have a wheel or at least a brake. So you always have the option of human intervention. That includes knowing that no system is entirely problem free. So when ever you look at an issue you may not start from the proposition that the system is at fault, but you never discard that either. The problem here is the inherent dishonesty is the way the Post Office knowing there were issues with the system, still went ahead when one of those problems resulted in a shortfall. I do think that the Horizon system was so full of problems (failure to balance, remote changes) that it should never have got off the developer's desks, let alone in the offices of a Post Master, many of whom will not be computer literate. As some wit once said the trouble with fool proof software is that the world keeps creating better and better fools. (not that I am describing Post Masters as 'fools'). No developer can anticipate how a user is going to use a system, and therefore needs to write software which reduces the options a user has to ensure that problems do not arise.

@renekilner7712 5 месяцев назад

The basics are this: technology is supposed to assist in how we run a business. It’s not supposed to tell us how to run our business. A big difference!!! The problem , years ago started, when IT dictated processes, based on how they wanted systems to operate rather than Operations dictating to IT how systems should complement business.

@councellingthecouncillors 5 месяцев назад

At the middle and senior levels of both the PO and Fujitsu could not have possibly taken the huge number of reported discrepancies from the counters as anything other than a systems issue, I ask if it had been the accounting errors flowed the other way where the postmasters were getting the double entries or whatever in their favour....how fast would the system have been fixed ?

@AlunThomas-mp5qo 5 месяцев назад

In my experience a faulty system causes accounting errors both ways not just one way. So how come that this particular system was only causing errors resulting in losses and not gains? Or are there even worst revelations to come?

@ianperry9049 5 месяцев назад

It probably did produce 'errors' the other way, but doubtless the Post Office will, if asked to investigate that possibility, will find that the relevant files have been shredded/can't be found.

@FenderTele 5 месяцев назад

I was visiting my mother last night and she made an interesting comment. During the mid 60s she can remember the first computer that came into her workplace it filled a whole room that needed to be at a certain temperature. A vivid memory, for her, was being told remember it's a tool always question it. Her direct boss retired in 1966 and said a computer will never take over from pen and paper, controlled by the human brain.

@aiistyt 5 месяцев назад

If he retired in ‘66 the chances are that he knew nothing about computers

@michaeltoohey1385 5 месяцев назад

The Post Office's manual systems used up to 1999 worked pretty well, and were capable of be audited.

@user-mw4ct2zu6e 5 месяцев назад

Makes a lot of good points for someone who paints his ancient wood beams white.

@RobertJonesWightpaint 5 месяцев назад

Maybe that wasn't him --- but I do share your disgust at the practice.

@gwyneth7812 5 месяцев назад

ha ha

@neilwhite6305 5 месяцев назад

Suspend all tax payers public contracts now.

@angr3819 5 месяцев назад

Absolutely. Another step to tyranny. If the misgovernment override the jurisdiction of the CCRC and the Court of Appeal, it will set a precedent by which both the CCRC and the Court of Appeal and indeed all other justice corporations and courts are abolished. This is far above the post office. It was privatised for a reason. The thing is that UN ordered no more paper from 2025. Creating excuses to abolish the post office will assist in that. This means all to be on computers, and we all know how important things are altered or deleted from the web and more. Time to buy antiquarian books on history, politics (at one time covered by re-legion, science, biology, medicine including natural medicine. Also vintage books as close as possible to the events. For installing, first edition books on WWI and WII are often give different stories than later edited and new editions. Also pre 1956 encyclopedias. You won't know the real facts otherwise. Although such books have been becoming ever more difficult to find and expensive. It's as if they are being bought up for bonfires. The actual criminals in control and their obedient servants in the Royal Mail/post office and misgovernment should have proceeds of crime upon all they and their families own until honest auditors work out what was right and just for them to be paid. Major shareholders also. Were businesses such as Blackrock and Vanguard invested? It was timed to become higher profile now. The documentary could be have been made and screened years ago. There hasn't been any even occasional slip ups of real disclosures of truths since circa 2010. What happened around that time? They wouldn't be able to declare it bankrupt and abolish it if it were still owned by the public. See?

@drmahaCroc9164 4 месяца назад

The Horizon system looks so substandard in design and implementation. I suspect Fuji didn’t have smart developers or capable

@neilwhite6305 5 месяцев назад

AI will make it worse, the idiots will give the downfall to skynet.

@palemale2501 5 месяцев назад

Up to 1999 the Post Office sturdy Victorian transaction ledgers, stock books and balance sheets were manually written - so calculation sheets, stock, paper transactions, currencies etc could be simply re-checked by eye - numbers written on paper pages don't change mysteriously. Computer machinations are hidden and any page could change (unknowingly if not printed off)..

@AlunThomas-mp5qo 5 месяцев назад

In the offices where I worked in the 1990's print outs of all financial transactions were routinely made at the end of each working day and all of these were filed and stored for a period of seven years (as is required by law). The ability to print off full reports was available well before the Horizon system was implemented so I am amazed that this was not done.

@palemale2501 5 месяцев назад

sorry I am not fully informed of exact before & after procedures as I was just assuming from hearing sub postmasters on TV and RU-vid - but I can imagine the confusion if outputs would change or be unexpected and not easily checked. I used to say firms would blindly accept all reports unless they were wildly out.@@AlunThomas-mp5qo

@palemale2501 5 месяцев назад

Perhaps I should withdraw my uninformed post altogether ? What do you think ? @@AlunThomas-mp5qo

@angr3819 5 месяцев назад

Not only the post office. EDF have twice on the last year not credited my accounts with payments made. Also they keep changing the amounts owed - even greatly. Their foreign call centre is absolutely useless except that they take the payments from my bank account - but it isn't credited on the next bills. I can't be the only one this is happening to. I pay over the phone not by direct debit. Probably other energy companies also.

@cavendish009 5 месяцев назад

When you do not understand something which you need to "use" you "shut-down". Having asked for help etc everywhere you can and got no answers; you SHUT DOWN and gloss over it.

@joerudnik9290 8 часов назад

No, there were loads of people who knew it wasn’t working. They were afraid to speak up ( in Fujitsu) and the investigators the Post Office hired( Second Sight) were stonewalled. Everyone heard ‘The system is down’, in the USA, starting in the ‘90’s. It happened at public and private entities. Don’t the British learn about computers in school, at their jobs??? Didn’t they have newspaper/TV reports talking about ‘viruses’, hacking, software updates, conflicts with new hardware??? It was a money matter. Many executives wanted the Post Office to be profitable.

@OH2023-cj9if 5 месяцев назад

Why has Fujitsu been running the failed software in the Magistrates and Crown Courts for years? It is a huge risk as they have access to every case file and can alter it without trace. There is NO audit feature in Common Platform by design. The software has never worked, it was forced upon staff who get blamed for all the errors with it and they are being held responsible by MOJ. How handy is it to have a backdoor in to criminal cases when you are accused of offences?

@OH2023-cj9if 5 месяцев назад

CPS refuse to use it, so do police. They store documents on a secure system.

@aiistyt 5 месяцев назад

All modern systems store data in databases, you don’t need to design an audit feature yopu just need to switch it on

@angr3819 5 месяцев назад

Another step to tyranny. If the misgovernment override the jurisdiction of the CCRC and the Court of Appeal, it will set a precedent by which both the CCRC and the Court of Appeal and indeed all other justice corporations and courts are abolished. This is far above the post office. It was privatised for a reason. The thing is that UN ordered no more paper from 2025. Creating excuses to abolish the post office will assist in that. This means all to be on computers, and we all know how important things are altered or deleted from the web and more. Time to buy antiquarian books on history, politics (at one time covered by re-legion, science, biology, medicine including natural medicine. Also vintage books as close as possible to the events. For installing, first edition books on WWI and WII are often give different stories than later edited and new editions. Also pre 1956 encyclopedias. You won't know the real facts otherwise. Although such books have been becoming ever more difficult to find and expensive. It's as if they are being bought up for bonfires. The actual criminals in control and their obedient servants in the Royal Mail/post office and misgovernment should have proceeds of crime upon all they and their families own until honest auditors work out what was right and just for them to be paid. Major shareholders also. Were businesses such as Blackrock and Vanguard invested? It was timed to become higher profile now. The documentary could be have been made and screened years ago. There hasn't been any even occasional slip ups of real disclosures of truths since circa 2010. What happened around that time? They wouldn't be able to declare it bankrupt and abolish it if it were still owned by the public. See?

@angr3819 5 месяцев назад

@user-nk7yp8sj6o 5 месяцев назад

Older American here. Doesn't the UK have IT people / companies that could have developed the necessary program? Not a good look for the UK’s legal system. Perception from the other side of the pond [US]. Considering the portrayed attitude / culture of those in positions of authority, in the UK, I'm not surprised at how this played out. Based only on what I've seen in videos & read in comments, coming from people in the UK, it seems that those in authoritative positions, regardless of the insignificance of their office, they function as if they have been given absolute, infallible powers from some all-powerful deity or royal source. Do not question my authority, I am the law, you are guilty until proven innocent. That’s just my perception. Didn't anyone from the defense of the hundreds of accused attempt to independently investigate alternative narratives / causes in an effort to prove their clients claim of innocence or is that not done in the UK's system?

@AlunThomas-mp5qo 5 месяцев назад

Good to hear views from the USA where I spent considerable time. When I worked in offices in the 1990's I saw the installation of many new computer systems, we mainly used American companies, McDonnell-Douglas was the favourite (yes I know they are renowned for fighter aircraft) because their systems were the most advanced and user friendly. You are right in your perception of the behaviour of people in authority in the UK, elected people in national, state, city, town and rural governments have forgotten that they are meant to be servants of the public and now behave like they are lords of the manor ruling over the people. I cannot answer your questions in the third paragraph as I do not have that information, however I can tell you that when I worked in fraud investigation my aim was to find and isolate the faulty transactions, then follow the pathways of those transactions all the way, whether they led to human errors, system errors or outright fraud no matter what employees and no matter how high up in the organisation and no matter how scandalous. That is what my boss would expect and that is what I always did.

@stephenbaxter3369 5 месяцев назад

You are quite correct in that everyone says presumption of innocence but in reality it’s presumption of guilt. We chose ICL but we all know no one ever got fired for using IBM.

@angr3819 5 месяцев назад

Remember that computer software only does what a programmer tells it to do.... So which programmers told it to do that? Was it all the software? Or were programmers targeting certain people for hacking? If not, then why didn't it happen to all sub post-offices and main post offices? There seems to be deliberation in lnvolved from a very high level. There is a lot more than that to it. It's yet another step to tyranny if the misgovernment override the jurisdiction of the CCRC and the Court of Appeal, it will set a precedent by which both the CCRC and the Court of Appeal and indeed all other justice corporations and courts are abolished. This is far above the post office. It was privatised for a reason. The thing is that UN ordered no more paper from 2025. Creating excuses to abolish the post office will assist in that. This means all to be on computers, and we all know how important things are altered or deleted from the web and more. Time to buy antiquarian books on history, politics (at one time covered by re-legion, science, biology, medicine including natural medicine. Also vintage books as close as possible to the events. For installing, first edition books on WWI and WII are often give different stories than later edited and new editions. Also pre 1956 encyclopedias. You won't know the real facts otherwise. Although such books have been becoming ever more difficult to find and expensive. It's as if they are being bought up for bonfires. The actual criminals in control and their obedient servants in the Royal Mail/post office and misgovernment should have proceeds of crime upon all they and their families own until honest auditors work out what was right and just for them to be paid. Major shareholders also. Were businesses such as Blackrock and Vanguard invested? It was timed to become higher profile now. The documentary could be have been made and screened years ago. There hasn't been any even occasional slip ups of real disclosures of truths since circa 2010. What happened around that time? They wouldn't be able to declare it bankrupt and abolish it if it were still owned by the public. See?

@user-nk7yp8sj6o 5 месяцев назад

Thank you for your in-depth response. I'm really sorry to hear how those accused suffered.

@stephenbaxter3369 5 месяцев назад

@@AlunThomas-mp5qo It did not surprise me to hear that the EPOS systems ran on Windows NT. That is an operating system that I always found problematic. As one comparison our Automatic Test Systems ran on Sun Workstations which quite simply never went wrong. Sometimes it's wise to pick the best and reject the cheapest.

@simmogj 5 месяцев назад

Get a hold of the project implementation plans and files...the user acceptance testing records and sign off. Was there full testing and audits

@maxthemagition 5 месяцев назад

This could only happen here in the UK where corruption of high officials is rife.

@Malakhi3 5 месяцев назад

He has a valid point, but it is not an excuse for what took place! I was in IT for thirty years as an engineer and consultant and there have always been people who understand how it works. There are specialists in every field. Any competent engineer knows that nothing is ever released that does not require updates, both in hardware components, firmware (software on a chip), the operating system, the network infrastructure, and the application. We used to have a saying for System Managers. "Never install and rely on Bleeding Edge Technology. Wait until the bug fixes are completed.” Having said that, what this guy is saying is absolutely true. My generation learned how to repair or rebuild things out of necessity, but in our lifetime, things have already reached a point where fundamental skills have been lost. Technology will be the end of civilization. At best, a return to the Stone Age!

@yj5666 5 месяцев назад

As a former software engineer, I am concerned that unpredictable failures could negatively impact people's lives. Since hearing this news, I have been experiencing anxiety. It's challenging to create perfect software. I chose to become an engineer because software can alleviate the burden of stressful paperwork. Currently, I am developing medical AI, and I hope that my AI can improve people's health. However, I worry that my mistakes may pose a risk to somebody's life. I advocate for more funding to ensure thorough checks on AI and software, allowing sufficient time for development.

@ncooper8438 5 месяцев назад

There's a saying that every piece of software has at least one bug.

@simonrowan2130 5 месяцев назад

What is easy to understand is Tim Parker is worth 250 million. Apparently he made a very feeble offer to one of the post masters without telling him how he could be contacted. Seemed the solution is right there. Seize all the assets of Venells And Parker to distribute to sub post masters.

@andrewpaterson5192 5 месяцев назад

The judges are culpable too. The legal system is not a justice system. The judges in the PO Horizon cases allowed abuse of their own rules of evidence and rules of disclosure. The judges are the last bastion of protection for the weak and ignorant against the powerful. The judges failed in this findamental duty. Who are these unsafe judges? How to we get a look into the totally opaque world of performance measures of individual judges. We measure everything else!! We pay bonuses to corporate and government bosses based on measures. When will judge williams call the unsafe judges in to explain why they got it so wrong?

@jasontiscione1741 5 месяцев назад

My new car blew a tire to shreds as I was driving through the Bonneville Salt Flats with the nearest cellphone tower 100 miles away. Opened the trunk and realized I got scammed with a "tire repair kit". It's a little bottle of foam that I'm supposed to use to reinflate this ribbon lying in the middle of the highway.

@lesleydickson7746 5 месяцев назад

I was in the car with my sister when we had a flat. We called roadside assistance. Throughout my sister was upbeat because she had a tyre reinflation kit in the trunk. When the assistance guy arrived we discovered that the tyre kit was actually a valeting kit with bottles of wash and wax. Luckily the assistance guy assisted and we were rescued. 😂

@andrewkemp480 5 месяцев назад

Any IT professional worth their salt with 20 year's in the industry could have tested this system and found the bugs

@lesleydickson7746 5 месяцев назад

If you’ve ever been the client of an IT company or department you’ll know this is wishful thinking. In my experience the culture of IT companies is A. Tell the company what the actually want and B. Don’t admit to any bugs or instability. 😊

@rogerdurrant 5 месяцев назад

The fact that a computer wants a human to tell it that it is not a computer tells you everything you want to know about AI

@lucyruby819 5 месяцев назад

Excellent analysis. We are reliant on electricity, batteries, tech hardware and software to run all aspects of our lives. The Post office crisis shows the how the automation of the justice system, means fines are dispensed, be it HMRC, parking tickets or worse, where the 'infallible computer', bad input or ill intent, can get to decide our fate. The push to a cashless society, where the state or worse, has complete control of what we can do with our money is another worry. Perhaps that is why we see more and more people opting out and even homeless, as they struggle to meet the tech requirements, smart phone, broadband, all automated records required to be allowed to be a human today.

@ianstroud7365 5 месяцев назад

he is frighteningly right. but common sense should has prevailed in the post office, but what happened they realized a mistake had been made but covered it up with bigger mistakes,

@roselw2239 5 месяцев назад

My organisation keeps changing & upgrading the computer system at less very 3years, don't understand that the post office keeps using the same system for 20 years. 🤔

@joysimpson3947 5 месяцев назад

Employees are not understanding the technology or even how to maintain the technology. All while the technology companies keep rolling out the lastest cutting edge, must purchase technology equipment and systems. My local UPS store for years now, are unable to competently operate their $$$ hundreds of thousand dollars copying machine. A simple copy of a document takes forever to do and if the macnine requires more copy paper, employees are not trained to know how to do even this.

@brianhepke7182 5 месяцев назад

But it did work (according to the docudrama) in favour of the post office, it was being operated behind the scenes without the sub postmasters knowing about it. So it was doing what it was programmed to do.

@fredtuba 5 месяцев назад

This man knows what he talking about. He needs to be at the enquiry !

@mikeford-branch7859 5 месяцев назад

Shurely if a Company employs /instructs employes to act as Prosecuters in any issue , these employees cannot perform their function properly / effectively / honestly / fairly / as a reason of their non understanding of the basis of any /all proscutions ?

@privateincognita71 5 месяцев назад

Brilliant and Well Said

@user-rf5rj7ee2v 5 месяцев назад

Just stop and think of the Boeing 737 Max 's problems as an example!

@Flapsupnolights 5 месяцев назад

Runs much deeper than issues with modern tech. More to do with modern corporate cover up and hiring targets for share holders. Putting money and bonuses financial rewards above safety

@stephenbaxter3369 5 месяцев назад

Poor leadership in either the public or private sector inevitably leads to disaster.

@yj5666 5 месяцев назад

If the bug caused a problem, why wasn't the entire post office affected? All the post masters could be blamed.

@stellamariayates3776 4 дня назад

Bugs can be limited to certain occurrences a or combination of actions so many not show up very frequently. Add that to a system that was declared fool proof and they can remain unaddressed for years.

@peterchapman697 5 месяцев назад

Name a piece of software that has no bugs? Can't right? And yet judges who should have known better, were willing to bring about guilty charges based on software evidence alone. Every one of them should be removed form office.

@peteWxM1970 5 месяцев назад

Jail the judges!!!

@goffthomas2554 5 месяцев назад

Judges only look at points of law, they have no common sense or empathy! 😊

@deananthony1000 5 месяцев назад

Judges didn’t do that. Was also in contract postmasters responsibility for shortfalls however they arise. Post office fixed the evidence and lied under oath to judges

@peterchapman697 5 месяцев назад

The tem is '@@deananthony1000 The term is"judgment" which they did not apply. Furthermore, responsibility for a shortfall in a contractual agreement does not automatically constitute a crime.

@gemmapeter7173 5 месяцев назад

NOP

@ianperry9049 5 месяцев назад

I wonder how many offices are having problems at the moment - I have been told by more than one SubPostmaster of my acquaintence that the system is still causing problems. I suppose we/they should be grateful that the Post Office are unlikely to start any new prosecutions, but doubtless they'll now be finding new ways to press for repayment of any alleged shortages.

@joysimpson3947 5 месяцев назад

Time is money, money is time. The technology can waste an extreme amount of time for private citizens, and can regrettably be use for malicious purposes such as “JAMMING” a private citizen, where all one’s accounts are tamper with and fraudulent activity occurs. This includes one’s taxes, credit card accounts, bank accounts, housing et al. It takes an extraordinary amount of a private citizen’s time to correct without compensation.

@rayH357 5 месяцев назад

most big companies ive worked for the management all the way up and down dont really question one another , a great big unaccountable chain of command. Not sure if its trying to uphold diversity/equality stuff or not that is now distracting from the actual work being done to a high standard. In this case not sure what to think. It might even be international politics involved if you believe the hype. Will wait and see.

@ianbarr5110 5 месяцев назад

IT is based on 99.8% correct. You can replace faulty hardware and a few years ago you could repair it quite easily. The software on the other hand can be more complex to repair as it's not backward compatible in many IT systems. There is always a backdoor as that's the access point for engineers to instal fixes. IT is not based on real time unlike Telecom that is real time. Telecom software must be backward compatible. Fujitsu system called Horizon was released with the usual % of errors. Maybe 99.9%. However, the 0.1% of errors will need to be fixed otherwise the system will produce errors. They knew there were errors when it was released and therefore had a team of engineers producing fixes then adding them via the backdoor without alarming the end users that this was going on. That is a crime. The backdoor is not the crime. Not alerting others is. This methods of fixing errors is nothing new. It's ancient in the IT world.

@aiistyt 5 месяцев назад

You don’t apply software fixes through a “back door” you clearly know little about software systems

@ianbarr5110 5 месяцев назад

@@aiistyt you've clearly never worked at Fujitsu.

@ianbarr5110 5 месяцев назад

@@aiistyt you clearly know very little about Fujitsu

@aiistyt 5 месяцев назад

@@ianbarr5110 I turned down a job offer in 2002. As I said you don’t (can’t) fix an application via a back door. Installation requires co-operation with the operating system

@ianbarr5110 5 месяцев назад

@@aiistyt agreed.

@ashantiaustin 3 месяца назад

Nothing new about thinking like a feudal lord over people without power for profit.

@uselessoldman7964 5 месяцев назад

Lets remember Fujitsu took over ICL and they were at the time the IT market leaders in Britain. I worked for them they were a great caring company and its employees worked diligently for their customers. Fujitsu only supplied the platform it was down to the Post Office to manage their data, financials employees and customers accounts NOT the supplier. Therefore I would argue Fujitsu hold no responsibility they did not manage the software and it would have been down to the Post Office to raise issues for the guys at Fujitsu to resolve and fix, if required. Fujitsu I am sure will argue there not scapegoats they did not cheat their customer it was the customer who cheated their employees !!!!!!!!

@stellamariayates3776 4 дня назад

A good point but remember Fujitsu were supporting the system and interfering with its operation. They had employees working discretely at their HO able to access the system each evening with the ability to change the figures of any postmaster. This was denied for years by the Post Office and Fujitsu and forms a huge part of this whole cover-up.

@uselessoldman7964 4 дня назад

@@stellamariayates3776 Why a cover up its a CRIMINAL issue since it lead to criminal convictions against so many innocent people. It is clear many in the chain were in the know from Post Office managers executives even CPS and lawyers, all associated to and members of a criminal cartel.

@YeahThatsTough 2 месяца назад

Now think on election integrity. The security of your bank account

@Flapsupnolights 5 месяцев назад

They can’t land a probe on the moon in 2023 yet you’re asking me to believe they landed man on the moon on the first attempt back with 1960’s tech. Give me a break

@AlunThomas-mp5qo 5 месяцев назад

They lost the technology documents of the 1960's space voyages to the moon.

@doughill1945 5 месяцев назад

They had a talented black female mathematician Katherine Johnson who wa later portrayed in the film Hidden Figures.

@ncooper8438 5 месяцев назад

This headline is nonsense and what qualifications does Guy have to comment on a technical matter like Horizon, he's an historian and and archaeologist. Imo the functions of Horizon, how to use it, can be understood well by those having to use it. What can't be allowed for and understood by users are the bugs and defects which add a randomness and unreliability to the system especially if the users told there's no fault.

@coam3708 5 месяцев назад

Give the software to the University Of London Computer Centre and they will show where the bugs are.

@gwyneth7812 5 месяцев назад

Cancel all computers, the mad AI crap and go to wind up wristwatches, real people and decency. I'm up for that, the world has gone mad.

@maria.and2265 5 месяцев назад

Equipment doesn't work correctly. Well known. Why anyone thought that computers that are equipment will work correctly all the time, is a bridge too far. 🤣

@aiistyt 5 месяцев назад

The guy clearly knows nothing about software systems

@YeahThatsTough 2 месяца назад

Wait for Digital Currency !

@Bubble_squeeky 5 месяцев назад

No excuse. After a handful of successful convictions they just assumed the rest were guilty based on previous cases. The PO mentality appeared to be.. well they are all up to it and blaming Horizon. Jarnail Singh questioning in the inquiry is like something out of a comedy sketch.

@angr3819 5 месяцев назад

@spidermike3 5 месяцев назад

Computers will do only what the programmer tells them to do, so if he say that 1+1=3 that that what it will output 3,. It all comes down to the computer being told the correct information, just like giving someone giving directions to someone, you give them a wrong turn all the rest if the directions will be wrong.

@user-qo2in5si5s 12 дней назад

Utter B S they knew exactly what they were doing

@sc3304 5 месяцев назад

Okay but can we hear that from a IT person, not a historian.

@RobertJonesWightpaint 5 месяцев назад

As well as an historian would be better: the historical context to all this is extremely important.

@hertsman5 5 месяцев назад

I worked at Fujitsu on a different contract just round the other side of a big square open plan office building - they all looked confused a lot of the time there...lol

@tantotonto 5 месяцев назад

It is difficult to believe that A Level Physics students are not taught the elements of wave theory in the field of electromagnetism, or the advantages of high voltage transmission in AC power transmission - we studied those things at O Level Physics. Also, it is surely not the job of high schools to teach you how to wire a plug - you learn that at home or from RU-vid, surely. So I cannot understand the point at the beginning of his argument.

@UsefulAlien 5 месяцев назад

Most of our modern solid state electronic technology happened after 1947, I wonder why???? ;)

@briancooper4232 5 месяцев назад

This guy is talking nonsense, if no one can understand how the system works . How could they trace and find the fault. One individual doesn't understand the whole system, but a large group of software programmers do, working collectively.

@RobertJonesWightpaint 5 месяцев назад

His point - which isn't nonsense at all - is that those who are responsible for running organizations don't understand systems, have no training in them, and probably still wouldn't understand, given this is not their field, if they had. So, to take Paula Vennells, she seemed to know what she wanted - but she had no idea how to interrogate the system (and then, culpably, failed to follow through with her original concerns - her failure to do that was more the problem than her ignorance, and to that extent you're right. However, even the software engineers, unless their call centres (the so called Helpline) kept proper records and were staffed by IT-trained personnel, wouldn't necessarily, as individuals, know that the system was returning false positives/negatives - you'd have to be using it on a daily basis to understand that, or testing it to destruction - which they weren't and didn't. Certainly, the end users didn't understand the system and couldn't make it work, or correct it when it didn't, any more than I can understand why my online bank account keeps freezing me out and assumes I've entered the wrong key-strokes when I know damn' well I haven't. All you can do if you're on the end of these systems is swear, panic, rant, report - and to the last of these, that's of no help at all if no one listens. Of course, collectively the software programmers should understand the system: but that assumes they worked collectively when errors began to occur - that anyone seriously asked them to - that executives understood that no software can be entirely foolproof. I've sat in board meetings in which directors and executives nodded sagely when technical points were made, afraid to admit their ignorance - and I've noted the sigh of relief when I or others asked those obvious questions to which no serious answer had been given - because that's where serious analysis starts, from the layperson's point of view anyway: the point at which you admit "I don't understand this, you tell me exactly what you're talking about and whether error is possible, you have anticipated it, you are aware it can occur, and don't fob me off with assurances". If the Post Office board were not doing that, they shouldn't have been in post.

@briancooper4232 5 месяцев назад

@RobertJonesWightpaint Bates approached computer weekly in 2004 and raised his suspicions to Tony Collins regarding the Horizon system, having only one source Mr Bates , the computer weekly journalist Tony Collins. He sat on the story till 2009 till more sub postmasters raised the same questions about Horizon.. Subsequently independent investigators understood the fault was with the software. The government knew about this as did Fujitsui...the reports were suppressed deliberately, whilst prosecutions for false accounting increased. If a new car manufacturer wishes to launch a completely new car it has to pass very strigent safety tests, if the car passes them the car can be put into production. Later on if a fault is found because of human error which happens, the cars not yet sold must have the fault rectified before sale and all models sold must be recalled and the fault on them rectified. So the post office and Fujitsui were both aware of the fault but failed to rectify the system, Fujitsui were fully aware they could remotely access each individuals post masters accounts they denied it to the post office, but independent investigators proved they could, again the PO suppressed this, with a gross dereliction of duty . So all that's happening now is the people who knew in Fujitsui and the Post Office who initially denied it are playing the blame game, trying to pass the buck to keep their jobs and figure out who's going to foot the compensation bill.. It will be argued over for years between the government and Fujitsui who actually pays the compensation. The Post office and Fujitsui both knew the system was not fit for purpose and suppressed the evidence. Like I say...the blame game.

@briancooper4232 5 месяцев назад

@RobertJonesWightpaint as a footnote. Why is the Post Office still using Horizon..? If the independent investigators were listened to at the time the faults could have been rectified, so why didn't they...? Thereby saving an further false prosecutions ,jail sentences, families ruined and people taking their own lives. Too much corruption and brown envelopes, although this is very hard to prove

@angr3819 5 месяцев назад

@pelinoregeryon6593 5 месяцев назад

I'm sorry, but if he's implying what I think he's implying then he's wrong. You don't need to understand how it works to know that it was wrong, you only needed the intuitive common sense grasp of statistics that everyone has to have known that the results of the Horizon system (the results being that it was telling them practically every sub postmaster was stealing from the PO) were completely, utterly and entirely implausible, there is no excuse for Vennels and other PO managers there. They belong in jail.

@kesamek8537 5 месяцев назад

Yah he's seeding a coverup lie that is running parallel with 'Paula is dim'. Don't fall for it.

@stellamariayates3776 4 дня назад

Quite! You don't have to know how to put a car together to drive it just a basic understanding of what you need to do to make it work. You will also know when something is wrong and it needs the attention of an engineer.

@stoyanfurdzhev 2 месяца назад

Still in grips of metaphysics

@tedtedtedtedted 5 месяцев назад

1:34, i gave up, interviewer needed to stop him blathering, though if his (eventual) point was the fraud investigators could only take the word of their bosses, then of course he's right, the audit of IT systems in very specialised but all of this of course deflects from starmers responsibility to protect the 'public interest', yet another spectacular failure of his tenure as DPP

@ps6572 5 месяцев назад

I wonder if they use Fujitsu to save money. Plenty of companies in the uk, who would be willing to do a good job.

@stephenbaxter3369 5 месяцев назад

I believe it was the lowest price quoted. Big mistake to accept that one!

@doughill1945 5 месяцев назад

Fujitsu(ICL) were the cheapest,I do not think there were more than a handful of companies in Europe that could have built and operated such a large undertaking. It was not just a computer..so many outlets to link into like the lottery,the dvla and the bsnk of Ireland for cash dispenders. The system had to link with sub postmasters in 4 different ways including satellite.

@renekilner7712 5 месяцев назад

We provided some asset tracking sw to the MOD years ago. Not only was it tested a gezillion times, the levels of security such that I signed my non-existent next 10 generations of great grandchildren away!!! Let me tell you, I would’ve been in jail with the key in the deepest ocean if we thought of pulling a stunt like this !!! What happened between then and now? Or is it just the MOD thats more careful?

@AlunThomas-mp5qo 5 месяцев назад

In the offices I worked in the 1990's any new computer system (whether it replaced a manual system or an older computer system) would be phased in gradually after running in tandem with the older system for a test period of at least three months. This would allow teething problems to be discovered and dealt with, the new system would only be allowed to go fully live when there was complete confidence that it was working properly.

@kesamek8537 5 месяцев назад

Post Office is a SIGINT organisation has been for 300 years of course they are ultra careful with all their systems just like the MoD or even moreso, the idea 'they didn't understand the technology' is a story designed to distract the angry public who don't really understand how their iPhones work and therefore think everyone else is clueless too.

@guygardiner1920 5 месяцев назад

The Milgram Experiment

@Wee_Langside 5 месяцев назад

Climate Models are computer programs that nobody understands, including the people who use them. They are so bad that the output of many,over 30 in fact, are averaged to give the answer then there are three scenarios modelled. Climate is a coupled chaotic system with inputs and feedbacks that are poorly understood far less quantified. We've only had satellite measurements of ice and snow particularly in polar regions for just over 40 years yet we can say without any caveats that polar ice is the lowest in recorded history. It's the same for global temperatures, satellite data for less than 50 years, using 4 different satellites and sensors never correlated against each other. Yet they can say with 100% certainty last year was the warmest for 123000 years. You're being lied to and conned. Difference between you and I is I know I am

@alexedwards6509 5 месяцев назад

I'm with Dr Richard Lindzen. If trends continue, we should consider taking action in about 450 years And as the government have admitted that the covid models were worst case scenario's, what are the odds that the climate models are deliberately so?