“Why Are Books Getting So G*D DAMN Long” - Richard’s Mom | 2 To Ramble  

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You also have readers like my daughter, who walk into the library and looks for the fattest book on the shelves, because she wants it to last longer before she has to come back and check out another book.

You’re telling me we’re NOT discussing Brandon Sanderson’s favourite pasta this week??

The larger the book the better the value of Audible credits.

Can't believe that Austin's grandma is going to be the one that convinces me to finally start LoTR 😂

Good question. Why they are that long? Neil Gaiman answered this back then. (Who he writes still with a pen.) He said when the pen was changed with the typewriter the novellas length doubled. (He worked as an editor back then.) Now following his explanation why and how it’s pretty obvious. He said that people tend to write down everything they just think at the very moment and that’s it. When they used a pen they thought about the words and sentences because they couldn’t just change it that easily in the notebook. If they looked back they saw what nonsense they wrote. And it was a longer explanation. But you can guess it.

So glad I found this podcast. These are the exact discussions I was looking for on books and reading.

I would like to add the rise in usage of audiobooks as well like people dont have to actually only set aside some time for only reading so the audiobooks could go longer and longer

Attention span to me seems to be more akin to chapter size. Longer chapters murder my attention span.

When I see a big fat chunky book, I say to myself “common baby, be mine” I love big books and cannot lie.

Recently I have been reading Japanese light novels and The Princes of Amber that are very short books. Let me just say that it feels good just reading books that respect your time and leave out things that truly don't need to be covered for a story to be good. Mastering world building in just a few short lines is probably something a lot of authors should start doing.

Fantasy definitely has more of a problem with bloat than other genres but books like that have pretty much always existed. Forget King, even Dickens and Tolstoy sometimes wrote beefier stories than they intended due to their format and/or audience.

Awesome episode! I love these types of topic discussions, so interesting! (Also, Happy belated Birthday Rich!)

Aww can’t wait to meet Austin’s grandma! ❤ There is a physical limit for printing big books. Ryan Cahill has spoken about it for publishing his last book in The Bound and The Broken series. I believe paper prices and printing costs have gone up as well in the cost of living crisis so this may affect the size of some physical books in the next block of years the study looks at.

I LOVE it when you two ramble about topics like this one. Great video guys!

Per the internet: "How many words is the Foundation trilogy? Here are the word counts for the books: Foundation - 70,407. Foundation and Empire - 77,451. Second Foundation - 72,021."

Wow we’re have I been to miss these two Awesome guys I have subscribed you guys keep doing great things!

Started this video directly after watching your episode with Bookborn, and the way I laughed when you addressed the studies and, "why I think this one is the most credible," having just seen her give you a whole thorough take on stats and the importance of taking into account how data is gathered. Impeccable unintentional editing.

The synchronized cursing is the energy I needed this morning.

An addition to this convo is how Audible works. Because Audible is basically a monopoly for audiobooks, and because it works via credits, it makes longer books seem like higher value. You are charged a set amount for a credit and can then use that on ANY book. So people like to use credits on longer books because it is perceived as higher value. Obviously shorter works will sell, but genericlaly this holds. The audiobook publiehrs have a lot of data which shows a major increase in sales at 15hrs+ The higher payouts seem to top off at about 20 hours. So if you're book is 20hrs (approx 200,000 words) you'll eek out the most per credit sale as it stands. Being longer doesn't payout more but the value for credit thing still kicks in. A boxset of my first series has sold a TON of copies in audio because it's 46 hours long. I'm not sure that major publishers consciously think about this but I do think it's a contributing factor, especially in SFF. We have long books already and this system encourages us to write maybe that little bit more. It may also be the case that in audio, longer books selling more means those are the most visible books, meaning they sell more, meaning our perception of the length of books (in that format at least) is increasing because that's the stuff we see/hear about.

I am really looking forward to when you guys start review ASOIAF. It's easily my favorite book series and would love to hear you guys discuss each book in depth!

I can agree that writing by hand for creating stories wears out your hand. Wrote 2 short stories earlier this year. total of 55 pages and I'd be sore the next day after workn on it..bc I had to get the ideas down while they were there. Great point

You guys have an awesome bookshelf show it off I like the wideview shots better :)

All for my doorstopper books! Bring it!

So hyped for Austin’s grandma! 🥹🥰🥰

Where did you get those stormlight book ends ? Also you guys got me into the series. Loving it thus far.

So fun! Can't wait for the Grandma episode! On the increasing book length, it also sometimes seems editors aren't quite as picky as they used to be...

I'm looking forward to the grandma episode!

I hauled two pallets just filled with copies of Brandon Sanderson's Oathbringer across the nation so I could get to my computer and listen to this episode

Grazing the book stores and I have a theory, a thicker book is more likely to stand out and thus catch your eye on the shelf. Improving the odds of purchase

I'm definitely in the boat of liking longer books. Characters are most important to me, way over overall story. The only short fantasy novel I ever got into was Kings of the Wyld, which didn't need to be long since it was all based in pretty established fantasy/D&D world structure

This was great, congatulations

I feel called out. I am doing something else while listening to this video 🤣. Not well because I got distracted and started writing this comment. But I am totally multitasking. Two thoughts that don't necessarily go together. 1) I went to a Tamora Pierce interview once and she talked about how her publisher would not let her have a book over 200 pages because they didn't think kids would read them. And then Harry Potter came out and suddenly she was allowed to publish whatever length book she needed to to tell the story she wanted to tell. 2) I always find it interesting to look at the average length of scene cuts in movies over time when you're talking about attention span. Stick your average teenager in front of Ben-Hur and they will find it boring because all of the scenes are significantly longer than movies today.

I've never watched tiktok and never will. I also prefer long-form content here on YT. Also I'm usually doing something while watching/listening.. working, driving, cooking, doing chores, walking, shopping, etc. If I'm just going to sit for a period time then I'm reading.. and my preference is to read physically versus other formats, for several reasons. I only listen to audiobooks when I want to physically read but can't (working, driving, etc). When I read a series, I think of all the books as being the one main story and rate it as such.

As not only a book reviewer but an author I find that the huge reason that books are getting so much longer is that publishing houses see it as a great way to make more money. And then authors are force to write another book that's just as long. I won't do that! I have way too much pride.

Hey Displate did continue sponsoring you! Love to see it.

Let me introduce you to two of my favorite authors, Larry McMurtry and James Clavell. Now talk to me about older books being shorter.

I loved the video! Also, you guys should totally read The Will of the Many by James Islington!!❤

Your videos make Mondays better. Also, you should read Realm of the Elderlings, at least if you want great characters. I'm interested to see what you would think. Also, my birthday is in April too, I suppose I'm in good company as a Taurus with Austin. (My birthday is actually World Book day, which I'm very proud of.)

Okay but Richard is rocking that beanie

Damn what a cool podcast RU-vid recommended me, very nice guys!

0:19 I look at that and go “ooooooh yeah baby…mommy likey~” but hey to each their own.

Per the internet: "Book-length averages: Something else to factor in is the genre. For example, thrillers tend to be shorter, coming in at around 70,000-90,000 whereas fantasy novels are usually 90,000 and up."

I love short stories, novellas, short books, long books, standalones, and series. I just like stories period, in any length!

Great video, you all uncovered quite a few "whys" I hadn’t thought of (EX. more free time). I know personally, the availability of audiobooks is the only reason I can consume long fantasy books. Did you guys see Sanderson talking about how publishers want him to publish like Will Wight? They prefer smaller books.

you all should bring the podcast to your grandma! would be awesome

Hi. Just discovered your podcast. You should do an interview with Grandma in progress of LOTR. What she thinks so far and what she's looking forward to. Then do a followup interview after finishing it.

Ok, hear me out. Audible credits incentivize buying the longest books. I like short books when I’m at home reading, but I’ve got 10 hour shifts so I want a long book. I’m 13 books through the Wheel of Time. Not sure I could’ve done it without Michael Kramer and Kate Reading.

Could some of the longer books be a product of the authors contract with the publishers? Say the publisher gives the author a 3 book contract and the author is then trying to cram 5 books of material into those 3 books.

My grandma was the best cook too! Never went by a recipe, it was all in her head. If I tried to do that, I'm pretty sure I'd accidentally poison people, lol!

I would also like to add that authors do this for monetary gain. In the romance community a lot of the books I read are on Kindle Unlimited. Authors get paid via pages turned. The longer the book, the more money they would receive.

I think we can also compare it to the popularity of tv series adaptations in recent years: more and more stories gain tv series adaptations which are longer and more detailed that movie adaptations 🤔

Idk, if a book is exceptional, I really don’t mind settling down for a few days with a 10 pound tome. But I also do love short books as a palate cleanser, something I can get through in a day or less.

We aren't bound by as many limitations because of technology. Not only do we have more binding options for physical books, but the actual writing process stands to enable longer books, potentially even obfuscating the real length as the author writes.

Actually a goated sponsor

I have suspended my crack addiction so that I can live long enough to see Austin’s granny on the pod

I wonder how much of the “less books read” stat is correlates with the length in books? I have been reading consistently this year, but because they’re all tomes (thanks Words of Radiance) my end of year book count will be low. If on average the books are about 80 pages longer, the math could line up there to drop yearly book amounts by 1-4 or so.

Can we talk about the 2ToRamble merch they reppin, I really want to wear something so drippy 😫

My favorite series is the wandering inn... And its currently the longest piece of english fiction ever written... And its still going.

I LIKE BIG BOOKS AND I CANNOT LIE!!!

I’m need those hoodies

Marketing may be a reason too. It grabs attention & When I see a huge book I typically wonder why.

When we all finished LOTR books, we all wanted MORE. Tokeinn even said it also. So today we are getting it.

Alternative explanations: As society becomes more shallow, we want greater depth in our books. As our world is more unpredictable and dangerous we want the comfort of a long and developed alternative reality.

I love big books and I cannot lie!

300-400 pages is the sweet spot for me with books. If it needs to be a dumbbell, it better be holding my attention on the edge of my seat the entire time. I'm not here for filler. Did I enjoy reading 1200 pages of Sanderson? Yes. Did I enjoy reading 800 pages of Crescent City? Absolutely not. That aside, I feel like we may have a case of longer books sell for a higher price and if less people are indeed reading, then they need to make their money somehow. Just a thought.

What about the factor that more readers are reading on Kindle vs a physical book. Therefore authors & publisher dont have to worry about costs of publishing physical books, and thereby authors can write the stories at the length & details they really want to. But I am sure yall have addressed later in thid video that I didnt get around to while writing this😅

I’m still into history books! But fantasy is always the best!

It also matters what time period you are talking about and when you start the comparison. Victorian novels were much longer than the novels of the novels of 1999 - 2023. Middlemarch is 316,059 words long; War and Peace is 560,000-587,000 words long, depending on the translation. Little Dorritt is 359,976 words long. The Count of Monte Christo is 464,162 words long. Don Quixote is 430,269 words long, David Copperfield is 360,231, Les Miserables by Victor Hugo is 530,982. So it really depends on where you start. If you look at the Victorian Period, then books are actually much shorter now (i.e. books have gotten shorter). Even Lord of the Rings, written 87 years ago, is 576,459 words long (it is one book, published in 3 volumes), and is longer than most current books.

I just got The Hobbit and LOTR and hope to read them soon! I want to make sure I have all the books "they" have been threatening to ban.

So here are my thoughts: reading trends have changed. Now that writing a book is much easier (and putting it in front of the audience), publishers and authors can clearly see what does well and what doesn't. I think this pushes authors to at least subconsciously get inspired to emulate these trends. I'm not just talking about things like hard magic systems, vampires, magic schools, etc; my point rather pertains to things like relatable characters, morally gray heroes, no overly purple prose. Where in Foundation the focus isn't really on the characters but rather the ideas, now in Red Rising Darrow is definitely a drawing part of the story so the author will naturally draw his characterization and struggles out more. Does this make sense? I think that in the past characters' psyche's just weren't so clearly mulled over like they are now (even if we look at things like Jane Austen's or F. Scott Fitzgerald, their characters just seem different, not worse or better, to the ones today). That's my 2 cents.

Make a tier list for best character introductions in fantasy

answer: because true bookworms were tired of tiny ass 5hr reads and then waiting 3 yrs for the sequel. Praise Robert Jordan, Hail Branderson.

I'm not finished listening the Podcast but I have this idea Is not that people is reading less books, is that nowdays books are longer so you have to invest more time in a single book that you can invest in multiple books. For example we have Diskworld where all the books are very short and we have The Stormlight Archive where all the books are very long. I make some math and technically the 41 Diskworld books are equivalente to 6 or 7 books of Stormlight Length. So If in a year I read 41 books of 200 to 300 pages I'm basically reading the same as if I read 6 or 7 books of 1200 to 1400 pages. So I really don't think people are reading lees.

Also bigger books look good on shelves. People on social media want to be seen as readers, not actually read. So when they do those shelf tours the long books look really good.

Happy I read all my books on my kindle. So I don’t get stressed with a big book cause I can’t see how big it is!!

I don’t mind a bigger book, if it’s broken up into shorter chapters or at least broken up into sections within the chapter. So it’s easier for me to read more or less as needed.

I'm writing my own series that I'm hoping to publish some day and personally, I'm shooting for 300 pages average, 400 max. The 200s like Narnia are too short for me, you can't get as deep a story as I'm going for, and Stephen King or Dune level at 500-600 is too long. I don't have THAT complicated a story to tell. 300-400 has proven to be a comfortable length so far, plus some of the books I have of that length are just more comfortable to look at and hold. Not magazine thin, but also not brick thick. I personally like reading longer books because of the complexity, but I just don't like writing them.

The Merch!!!!!!🎉

I love big fantasy books. Especially when the story is great. I remember getting through The Way Of Kings and Words of Radiance and happy they were that big. The payoff is so worth.

(let's see if you guys talk about this after I keep playing the video lol) But I think the thing about people are reading on average fewer books a year, yet the books are longer makes sense. What if people aren't actually reading less time wise, but because it's taking them longer to get through each book they're reading less books in the same amount of time?

Around 8:30 the Gallup poll indicating that people are reading less is brought up but you say that seems in conflict with the data showing books are getting longer. I don' t think that's the case at all. The Gallup poll says that people are reading fewer books, it doesn't say that they're spending LESS time reading. If books are getting longer and longer a natural result would be that unless people increase the time they spend reading, the number of books they read will naturally decline. If I spend 500 hours per year reading books, I'll get through a lot more if the average book takes 7 hours to read vs 70 hours to read.

Since the studies you mentioned used page counts instead of word counts to show the increasing lengths of books, could formatting differences such as font size or margins also have contributed?

austin's grandma might actually get me to finally reread lord of the rings again.

If the book isn't atleast 500 pages I don't even bother looking at it

There’s a contemporary romance that’s 900 pages and honestly there’s absolutely no need for that. Usually they stop at 350 pages afaik so it’s an outlier but still that’s a lot for a romance. I’m not going to read it because it exhausts me thinking about it. Aww Displate are back that’s sweet 🥰! Aww Austin’s grandma sounds wonderful.

Will you guys be reviewing Dune part 2? Would like to know what you guys think of it

Richard trashing on short books is so funny with his favorite series being wheel of time

I don’t mind a long book but I feel like everything is a trilogy or a series. This is a very broad generalization obviously because I know how I feel doesn’t reflect reality. I don’t mind a series sometimes but also I like one off books too. It feels daunting to get into a long book if it is book one of 3 or 4,5,6 etc especially if they’re all long books.

The books I've read this year are on average 119 pages longer and I'm like wait what happened?

One part of me thinks that I like short books more, because I can find out how it ends quicker and read more stories But then I’m mostly reading long books, because I enjoy them more and get so attached to the characters and the world

Richard’s mum is kinda right! Lots of overwritten books on the market rn! BUT DAMN I FOOKIN LOVE LONG OVERWRITTEN SHIET🔥

I remember being in highschool over twenty years ago and reading Stephen king, Terry brooks and anne rice. All who wrote bigger books, don't forget everyones father/grandfathers favorite author tom clancy😂.

When do we get a 2toRamble read through of Malazan?

Glad to see you guys have merch now! Do you have a Teeter my Totter shirt or hoodie? Also, this episode reminds me of a conversation between Mike's Book Reviews and the self-published author Ryan Cahill. Ryan said that when he was writing his third book Of War and Ruin, he planned it to be around 250k (I think?). But then it git bigger, so told his printers that it might be over 300k. When it was finished, he told them it ended up as being 430k. "You're a d***head," they told him. Funny thing is tho that every review I've seen of it says that there is no fluff. Mike even put it at #2 for his best books of 2023, just behind Lonesome Dove. You guys should check Ryan out. If you love Sanderson or John Gwynne, I think you'll love him too.

I mostly manga and manhwa, light novel reader. However I been buying erotica and LTrpg books.

I want Richard to know I got a hair care product ad on this video

The contradiction of shorter attention spans and longer books can be explained by fetishism. There's an aura of prestige around large books. In this age, that prestige increases, exactly because it runs counter to everyone's cultural habits. The writing has also become much simpler, so the time to read these books might not have increased as much as the page count.

If books are getting longer then maybe they take longer to read, so that equates to slightly less books being read in the same time frame?

The larger the book the more likely I am to read it.