🔴 Sigma 65mm SMASHES Voigtlander 50 APO 😳 (Leica L Mount) 

Hi CF, sorry to confuse. The "real" test shots are all with the Leica SL which is modified for RF (M) lenses. I used the Lumix only for the few garden shots for variety (and when testing SL verses S5 in those videos there is little difference. Sony is the one with the corner smearing etc).

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Matt there has to be something going on with the results of the Apo Lanthar on the Leica SL - can't even get a somewhat sharp edge until 5.6? Corner results must be horrible. Look at every other test online. I don't have the 50 Apo, but I have the 35 Apo and it's pretty crisp to the corners wide open. Cosina claims the 50 Apo is sharpest lens they've ever created. Either your adapter is out of alignment or the lens is. PS I like both you and your channel, but something here needs further investigation🙂.

@@c.f.384 - Sigma used to put Apo on some of their film era lenses. Strange to have the Art series and C lenses sharper than Apo lenses of other manufacturers and yet Sigma does not put Apo on such lenses of theirs.

@@c.f.384 I recently got 35 and 50 apo and the sharpness is ridiculous, no need to mention the microcontrast and 3d pop. It is worth the money if you are going for the best IQ, and autofocus is not your primary concern. I also own a 24mm sigma i series which is also good, but never touched it once after I got the APOs.

@@c.f.384 thanks, I’ll do a follow up test as some say it performs worse on SL vs M.

Thanks for sharing. Yes I did a follow up video about M glass on M bodies as I knew the APO was better than I showed here. I still have it and rate the lens. I appreciate you commenting and listing the differences.

Thanks Yoann, yes I enjoyed the FL more than expected too!

Thanks Don, Ah yes I meant to mention the CL as a nice combo. Agreed.

Likewise.

Thanks Julius!

Thanks for confirming. Yes this series is good. I particularly liked this and the 90.. 35 also good. I reviewed the 85 too.

Thanks for the feedback and welcome to Leica! Go to MrLeica.com (link below) and get the Leica welcome pack for SL. Yes modern Sigma lenses are very perfect. If you want more character get older or Voigtlander or others.

Thanks Wei! Yes I too liked the 65mm FL for portraits.

Thanks! Yes I was really surprised too!

Yes a strong performer for sure. I love the 90mm too that I reviewed last week. Might be good for your live music stuff

Thanks Ron, happy to help!

Thanks! Yes the S5 can take images as nice as my SL and those lenses are great. I've tested all of them and love the 90 too!

Haha yes you did, thanks Gustavo!

Thanks and yes agreed! I sometimes use AF for weddings for ease.

Thanks Alex, yes I much prefer the others for rendering too. Agreed Sigma 50/1.4 is huge!

Good idea TW, yes Lumix often do good deals. I still need to try that feature on mine!

Thanks Robin and yes it would be very nice to have " L-mount, but with Planar, Sonnar, Helios-44" :)

Thanks Mike, great tip. Yes I was surprised at the result too. Thanks for the precise info, perfect.

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom All good. The Sigma is a beautiful lens though! I borrowed a friend's copy for a short while and was blown away by it. I never purchased it though, I couldn't quite think of what I would use the 65mm focal length for. Maybe need to borrow it again... haha

Hi Nick, thanks for the progression feedback. Yes it only took 270 videos but I feel i'm making progress as I learn! Yes not every video is for everyone, cheap lenses, very expensive lenses, AF lenses, vintage lenses. I try to provide all that relate to Leica so to help the different groups of interests. Personally I like the older lenses the most and more of those to come! Matt

Even the SL2-S is much better at the edges and corners with M lenses than the original SL 601. And the Voigtlander 50 APO is insane on the M11. The Sigma does have it beat with regard to wide open vignetting, though.

Hi Julius, I spoke with one of my Patreons and yes some lenses have been shown to perform better on M bodies. I will do a mini test SL vs M when I get a chance and share here.

Thanks, yes I hope to test the 30mm and 56mm at some stage.

Thanks Thomas, I hope to dust off my F5 soon! :)

Thanks Kim, great tip!

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom You're welcome. After testing some more yesterday, nah, not exactly like a manual, I wish it was manual or had a focus clutch, I don't care for autofocus either. And the Sigma lens seems to drain the battery of the S5 far faster than the native lenses...

Hey Sean, thanks and nice! Congrats. Look out for a video coming soon, you might be able to relate and it includes a 50mm f1.2! :) ..0.4m is impressive!

Thanks Thomas, for portraits I prefer the SL for all lenses but I still keep my M.

Thanks and yes!

Thanks Patrick!

Thanks Lucy!

Nice Paul, some of the guys coming to my workshops use the 85/1.4 if using SL bodies. I like the TTA 50.

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom the 50 is good, but the 90 is on another level. It is really exquisite in rendering. Might be worth a look for your style of portraiture.

Thanks! yes! :) Yes i'm looking forward to testing the Lumix more.

Hi James, yes it's only fair to call me out on this! I think the shallow DOF from the 65mm vs 35mm made the lens more useful for portraits as only a think slice in sharp focus. I need a rest from modern lenses so back to something older next!

I think for glamor and portraits one might be better served picking and choosing from the following: Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f/1.2 Aspherical III Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.2 Aspherical Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.2 Aspherical Voigtlander Nokton 75mm f/1.5 Aspherical The Sigma 65mm f/2 is a sharp, general purpose.

Thanks, The Voigt 65 is only for Nikon F I think, I'm a Leica M (VM) guy so we don't have this lens option. The Sigma is a good performer for L amount users but I'm a sucker for metal and glass M mount lenses.

Thanks and yes agreed they’re producing great lenses right now!

Thanks. Yes the 50 APO is better than I show in this video. It's an amazing lens. I now have the M10 so it should really shine on that.

Thanks Josh, yes these results were bizarre. I've no clue what happened that day as I normally get great images from the APO. My benchmark lenses for all M lenses. It's normally fine on the SL. I use the SL as my main camera despite owning Ms. The Sigma is nice too but I would expect them to be similar (yet the 50 is proper metal and glass and true optics, the Sigma needs software to correct the image (like all Sigma AF lenses). I show it in 1 video, with and without lens profile turned on.

Thanks yes agreed the test results were wrong for this video (somehow). (Sorry) The 50mm APO is a stellar lens and I continue to use it.

Thanks Wei, these new f2 lenses are much smaller than the fat Art lenses. The size is good I think.

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom True, but don’t you wonder on the back of your mind, which one is sharper? :)

Thanks, yes too many nice lenses! :)

Yes Voigtlander lenses have more character for sure! I use them a lot

Thanks, yes if I ever start testing E mount i'll be sure to share the results, thanks!

Thanks and for mentioning the 65 E. Us Leica peeps forget that exists. Maybe they’ll make it in M mount too!

Thanks Vic! I'm already on it but they've been out of stock for ages here

Hi Didier, I too have the plastic fantastic 50mm Lumix! Still need to make a video.

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom lol 😂 plastic was fantastic in those old days !!!

Thanks Brian, some new film work to come as soon as I can.

I heard that the Voigtlander performs best on Leica M cameras. There seem to be some corner problems on mirrorless cameras. I noticed some sharpness loss and color shift on my Leica SL . At iso 6400 in darker conditions you can clearly see heavy color shift in the corners. This seems to be the case with all my Voigtlander lenses. After all they are designed for M cameras. As far as I can tell, you don’t have these problems with sigma or other L mount lenses. The test, you mentioned, was surely done with the e-mount version of the lens. They must have optimized the lens design for Sony cameras, so you get great corner performance. It’s obvious, that the Sony e-mount lens is different from the Leica m-mount version. Only the E-mount offers a fair comparison between the lenses. The apo lanthar seems to be the better lens. No surprise really, it can even compete with a 8000 Euro Leica apo lens. Crazy 😜.

@@juliussternfeld428 This is a factor. The Apo-Lanthar has an E mount and M mount version, and the optical formula is not exactly the same. If you buy an M mount Apo-Lanthar and then use an adapter to mount to Sony E the corner performance will visibly be poor in comparison to the E mount version. Matt is using the M mount with an adapter to L. I am not sure if it has the same issue as using the M mount with adapter on a Sony. Many rangefinder lenses have issues when mounted to mirrorless. Leica did some special things, so M mount lenses work well on the SL? That is probably only with native Leice lenses though? Or does the SL still have issues with Leica M lenses like other mirrorless cameras?

@@sebastiang7183 they say that the Leica SL works better with m-mount than other mirrorless cameras. I think Leica uses software corrections for their own m-lenses. But that is far from ideal and doesn’t work with Voigtlander. I assume that m-lenses and SL cameras don’t work together as smoothly as Leica suggests. That’s my experience with the original SL. I don’t know, if newer SL cameras with better sensors have an easier job.

A Patreon told me that some M lenses have been shown to perform worse on the SL. I will do a follow up test when I get a chance to compare the lens on the SL and M.

@@juliussternfeld428 If I had to guess I would agree with you based on issues seen with other mirrorless cameras. Leica might do some software correction for their own lenses, but probably do not do anything for third party like Voigtlander. All I know is that for that lens there is a M-Mount and E-Mount for Sony mirrorless. If you buy the M-Mount and add an adapter the performance is poor in comparison to the E-Mount so the optical formula has been tweaked.

Thanks James, the APO might be as sharp on a M body but yes Sigma did great job!

Thanks David, yes many tell me the 45 is great. I'll maybe test at some point thanks.

Thanks Joseph, great combo. Agreed normally MF lenses are fine it’s just on those occasions!

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom quick question - when using your SL2 to manual focus - do you still have to zoom in to nail the focus ? or is the screen big enough?

I’m right there with you, the sl2’s look a lot more affordable to own with lens choices like these.

Thanks William, for me I’ll shoot MF as long as I can but yes owning one AF lens for me is probably sensible. Yes if you love Leica then SL lenses are great, just be careful with the size of a Lux. Cron are better size.

M lenses are only the "best lenses in the world" for M-bodies but are not meant to compete with a fair advantage over L-mounts on SL or S cameras.

Metal barrel, interal focus = 65mm

Hi, I really liked the 65 FL actually, more than expected! (as a 50mm guy). Less distortion, more bokeh!

Yes, I've bought no Sigma lenses for the same reason. Nice but give me a proper M mount lens any day! I love the LLL Elcan. See my top 10 video. (I have the Heliar 3.5 in 2 versions also)

Thank you, I was only borrowing the 65mm but the results impressed me.

And the Voigtländer are sharper on Cameras with 42 or more megapixels.

And the Voigtländer (E-mount) are sharper on Cameras with 42 or more megapixels.

Thanks yes it was only really the sharpness that wow'd me, still impressive!

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Look at my other comment that Julius Sternfeld responded to. I think the sharpness issues you are seeing especially in the corners are due to you having a M-Mount APO-Lanthar and mounting it to a mirrorless camera. The APO-Lanthar should beat the Sigma in the corners. The lens is sold in M mount and E mount and the formula is slightly different and it's not just the mount. Use a M mount with adapter on Sony E mount and performance especially in the corners drops compared to the E mount version. If you have a M mount digital camera shoot the lens on the M mount and compare it to the L. I predict you will see sharpness differences. APO-Lanthar should reign supreme even with sharpness. I predict the issue you see on your L mirrorless camera should mirror the issue Sony shooters have seen.

@@sebastiang7183 thanks yes I’ll try to do follow up testing the APO on SL vs M

Thanks Maurice! My 50 APO matched the Leica 50 SL APO so I think I just had a special Sigma copy! (The 50 might behave better on the M vs SL ... )

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom I think that might be it 👌🏼 I used both on high megapixel cameras: Sigma on Sony R4 and Apo on M11... Than in my case the apo is better. Allthough as said I love both ☺️

I think you did the right test Maurice, the 50 mm APO on an M camera and the Sigma on Sony-it could have been an SL or a Pana S, all cameras that the lens is designed for.

Thanks Bruno, yes the APO is sharper than shown here. See my video, M glass better on M bodies.

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Yes I have watched it and that is what made me buy my APO, and I am glad I did. ;o) Thanks again.

Yes, see Poland video 1 for the filter info

Thanks, the 65 or 50 1.8? I saw a 50 1.8 in Mpb too but eBay was cheaper.

Thanks CP, yes someone else mentioned the 65 E. I’m still have with my 50, the results were just a surprise. Also happy with 24mp otherwise I’d need a new computer!

​@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom I can recommend the Mac M1 with 16GB RAM 😇 My file-sizes grew from 20 to 80 and now 120 megapixel for one image, but I REALLY love those images ! I also got new extern harddiscs.

Hi, that's a big question! In brief, Sigma for AF lenses, Voigtlander for MF lenses. If you want to discuss in detail you can get me here - mrleica.com/zoom/

I have, see the 50 1.4 video. Great results but silly big.

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Ohh yeah just saw but my bad I should have been more precise their newer art lenses [which are not just adapted from their dslr art lenses to mirrorless] like 35, 20, 24 dg dn are even better ofc still big but not as much as that 50 but very few flaws.

Thanks Mark, I need a break from modern lenses for a bit but maybe in the future!

Yes mist filters help for modern lenses but I still prefer vintage lenses

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom I understand; I wasn’t implying otherwise. The question of ‘too clinical’ fascinates me. For example, I love the ‘look’ of the Zeiss Sonnar 1.5 ZM. It’s special for me. Of course, technically it’s flawed. Love your work and your channel.

Hi, yes you can't compare focus by wire lenses to proper manual focus lenses. I really don't enjoy focus by wire lenses and only own 2 both which I use for AF only. You'll be better to buy a cheap soviet MF lens if you enjoy MF.

Thanks Dominic, my 65 is one of the ones doing the rounds in the UK :)

Thanks Cesare. Yes 65 vs 65 would make more sense but there is no Leica M 65mm lens. The closest option is the popular 50mm APO. Agree the FL are different so it might be hard to relate the 2 lenses.

If I ever get that lens and a Sony yes

Yes thats a great counter argument and they are lighter to carry..!

Thanks Steve!

We need a FF Leica CL size camera with EVF!

Hi Peter, congrats! Great lens. I did a full video on the mist filter (1/8 if I remember well)

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Thanks, can’t wait to shoot it - I will look for your video on the mist filters ! 👍

Haha sorry Chris!

I'll like to if I get a chance. SL will win optically but the M may render nicer.

Thanks! An oldie!

Hi Steven, thanks for your thoughts. Yes I was only looking at the basics here of sharpness and fall off (in the building image)

What is "sterile and bland " supposed to mean? It sounds rather subjective ("clinical" is too, up to a point,, we may not have the same experiences of "clinics" ;o) In Matt's defence, he is analysing the lenses in terms of details/sharpness/resolution which are objective criteria that anyone can check, relate to and understand. Analysing lenses in terms of blandness or "sterileness" may not lead us very far except probably biased arguments. Just a thought...

@@BrunoChalifour Bruno, one day you wake up and realise that certain camera and lens combos produce a stunning 3 Dimensional effect. I woke up to it when I researched Pentax cameras and bought into their system. Now I had 3D pop. This is not subjective at all, it forms part of lens design. The best way to show you is if you take a full look at this Camera Conspiracy video about 3D pop. When Kasey gets to the point where he compared the 3D pop of the Voightlander 21mm f/3.5 and the zero 3D pop of the Canon 20mm, you will see what the 3D pop means and how it translates to screen or even prints. Hopefully you will understand that this is not a subjective trait, and once you see this you cannot unsee it. The further you go on from here you can learn all about the different kinds of 3D pop. Please watch the video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rxnOTSQyQmI.html

@@stevenjohnson4283 Thanks for your detailed answer and sharing of experience, also giving references. I do think that this is the best part of these RU-vid channels when the comments bring something substantial and facts, experiences, to the table and not just "opinions", most of the time flat-when people are not just there to speak about themselves, as in a mirror, and their equipment, in comments often totally disconnected from the point of the video. So again thank you... again. I watched the video and I must say I am still "not awake and still not realising" thence my "subjectivity" point earlier. The analysis we are watching on the video, although full of good intentions, is technically problematic and, as a result, I have a problem with its conclusions. Another factor is probably, I must confess, that I have never looked for "pop" or "3-D" effect in my two dimensional photographs and as a result I may not know what I should be looking for, where I should be looking for it and how I should be looking for it. But I learnt something thanks to you: that some of us can see "a stunning 3 dimensional effect" I'll remember that (even though, frankly, I never saw that in the video or anyone else's photographs. Possibly my vision or the way my brain processes visual information. All the best. PS: I realise that did not explain what was "technically problematic" in Kasey's demonstration: 1-two different focal lenses (the longer one will always translate in a physically flatter rendition of the subject/image), and different depths of field, 2-color balance, but above all density and contrast are not the same for the two images so it is very difficult to compare the actual optical qualities of the two lenses, (because we are also comparing their different densities and contrasts, two things that depends on the default settings of the camera, the image-processing software and the display not the lens. Another thing we do not know if the two images were shot at the same time, with the same lighting conditions (which may be the case, in which case it also tells us about the different coatings of the lens and possibly the different processing default selected by the processing software... but we do not know). In other words it is not exactly a very "scientific"/reliable test. But in any case I must confess again, I cannot actually read the results/differences except the ones I have just mentioned.

@@BrunoChalifour I'm glad you watched the video. When I saw the comparison shot of Kasey's keyboard by the Voightlander and the comparison with the Canon RF lens, it was very plain to me that the voightlander image was more dimensional. I'll give you an example on the Wikipedia page for Chromatic Aberrations. Many 3D effect people are saying that Chromatic Aberrations is what creates the 3D effect, as it is analogous to a 3D camera which has two lenses offset to one and other. The blue and red filtered glass a person wears when watching a 3D movie brings it all together. The red and the blue channels of color are separated by the lens and hit the sensor at slightly different times, and give the 3D effect. So to make a single lens behave like a stereo lens setup on a 3D camera, the image is offset down the single lens. Red and Blue becomes purple and we see the purple fringing. It is an optical illusion through the lens. Please look at the photo from the wikipedia page on Chromatic Aberrations here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chromatic_aberration_(comparison).jpg You will see that the upper image is clean, but the lower image is blurry, however if you the lower image appears to have depth, and if you squint a little further, it is more noticable. Here's the original wikipedia page on CA's en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_aberration Ken Wheeler AKA Theoria Apophisis also goes to great lenght to explain how Chromatic Aberrations in lenses create the 3D pop or dimensionality. Watch Kens video here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-XpvLCOwAaEs.html Kens explanation is thats the way it is like it or not. Chromatic Aberrations creates image depth. Now there are a number of video game maker channels on youtube, where they explain how they use Lens Aberrations in video games to create a more cinematic visual experience. Earlier video games lack an organic feel, so the adding of lens aberrations adds to the experience. So they add lens bloom, and flares, anamorphic flares and Chromatic Aberrations. One such game is shown with Chromatic aberrations on and off, and on the image appears to have more ambience. Here is the game "The Division" Beta test with chromatic aberrations on. IMO it creates a cinematic feel to the image. The image sharpness is REDUCED with CA's on. Now we see that exact same thing in lenses. A lens with CA's will have more depth, as opposed to a low CA lens the image looks flatter. Printed images will look flat: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-iVqYPD2_-c4.html I recently saw a youtube video about CGI movie makers doing a remake of the Star wars Death Star trench run. One of the lead designers added Cromatic Aberrations to improve contrast. Here's the video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-K3b_S_qtBgc.html Now there is a youtube channel called "Straight out of Camera" and he too shows images from renown 3D pop lenses like Zeiss 55mm 1.4 Otus. Straight Out of Camera is sort of at an academic level discussion on lens analysis. Check out some of the video discussions on Dimensionality: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8hBvVlD6IM8.html One last thing I'll do for you is show you a couple of Christopher Frost videos, but It starts at the sample images of a building and you can see the dimensionality between the lenses. Just remember to immediately pause the video to look at the image, and set it to the highest quality to see: Sigma 50mm 1.4 EX ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-H5w1H4VUH5E.html Zeiss 50mm 1.4 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qk3tVNuWIOA.html Now I've handed you a bunch of stuff on 3D pop/dimensionality........ The next level is on holographic looking images from lenses that take dimensionality to another level. And thats Leica and Zeiss cinema primes, and some vintage lenses. The Zeiss Otus 55mm 1.4 has gone beyond 3D pop/Dimensionality and is more a holographic rendering. I could show you a video from a rally car race from the 1980's where the footage has monster CA's but the IQ is absolutely holographic and dimensional. I know you're skeptical about this judging by your last responce. But this is a thing, and its not subjective - its lens design 101.

Thanks Vishal!

And if Cosina bought the right to the Contax name, then it will be perfect !

@@cameraprepper7938 well they could stick Voigtländer on it, which would be nice.

I was worried that the lenses work with profiles to get the best from them so it would need to be a bit more advanced perhaps to get the best from these electronic lenses. (vs simple RF lenses for M mount say)

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom well Cosina built the Epson R-d1, make great digital lenses and film cameras. If they can't I don't know anyone could.

@@jonathanparkes8977 One Camera I really want is a compact full frame (24x36mm) sensor Camera in the style of the first version of Contax T and the Minox 35 ML, just digital and with a very good EVF !

Less likely but nice idea! :)

Hi Carlos, I might need to do some old lenses for a bit but yes i'll try at some point.

I was the same for years too ‘not a proper Leica’ and then eventually they caught up with me and they just work.

No many brands make 65s for M or L mount so I just compared to the 50 APO I had with me in Poland

Yes, I love the test shot result out over the city

Ha thanks Scott. Image quality is ok on these newer Sigma lenses but I still buy Voigtlander

Yes.. I’m maybe older than I look and I always avoided Sigma when I shot Nikon (used almost everything else!)

Same here, what a difference a decade makes 😂.

Yes!

Haha, I wasn't expecting the results either!

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom I mean, I am no pro so I sold a bunch of thrifted vintage cameras to pay for it. Good deal already, even better when it's 60% off...

Thanks. I’m a Voigtlander fan boy so I buy those and not Sigma

@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom oh I thought you said femboy lol. I mean it's cool if you are. No biases here bro. Get your hands on the Zeiss classic distagon 35mm f2