Rendering a model in quadrilaterals does not require more of them compared to triangles, and often requires less, but when porting PS games to Saturn many devs didn’t optimize their models and instead made the Saturn render triangles by placing two quadrilateral points at the same coordinates.
I was repeating what several coders said in interviews, somebody else corrected me on this point too, but I am not technically minded or a programmer so I wouldn't know which is correct. What you say certainly sounds plausible with regards to porting.
@MaxAbramson3 No kidding, when Sega of Japan refuses to make and send enough developer kits, you have quite a problem. Then, when they finally do send the dev kits they come with no documentation. Still, developers had plenty of time before Saturnday...E3 Announcement: Surprise! The Saturn is out! F#$%%
For me one of the best consoles ever. Might even be my favourite. Just a shame it wasn't a commercial success. The Dreamcast was almost doomed from the beginning because of it.
i would argue the last one *is* accurate in that it says the saturn has games and that the n64 isnt worth waiting for because the saturn library as a whole is far superior to the n64's... i can name around 20 games released in the west (30 including japanese only games) actually worth owning on the n64 compared to 45 saturn games ( closer to 75 combining japan only releases).. the saturn's 3rd party support (while dwarfed by sony) was double that of nintendo's that generation (something they realized and tried to remedy for the gamecube- bringing back square, namco, and even sega themselves).. while the n64 had a select few titles that were generational in impact, and a large handful that were great, the rest were generally trash in a pretty small (around 388 games total) library compared to the saturn who might not have had individual titles that were as generationally lauded (mostly because westerners didnt get to play some the greatest saturn games till later), but had a much larger set of great games in a larger library (around 1,000 games and software).. i guess a lot of this comes down to preference, but even then i would argue outside of a select few games on n64, the saturn's library made for the better total gaming library and hindsight has generally bore that out in a lot of ways..
Yeah, I agree, the N64 has a terrible library for me, there is only one game I ever think about that I want to play on it (Robotron 64), whereas the Saturn has many of my all-time favourite games.
@@TheLairdsLair yeah.. i can name stuff i personally love like sin and punishment, ogre battle 64, mischief makers (outside of the big nintendo releases), etc but compared to the dozens of fantastic saturn games (Darius Gaiden, Bulk Slash, Grandia, Dragon Force, every bit of the Panzer Dragoon series, Elevator Action Returns, Radiant Silvergun, Gaurdian Heroes etc- i can keep going) its not even close..
SEGA seemed to believe wgat they were telling the press. That was a dysfunctional company. Sega CD+SVP, then going halfsies on the PlayStation would've made more sense. That was the Kalinske plan.
Nice video! Your statement about 3DO’s 3D rendering is a bit off though. 3DO did not render polygons as triangles. Instead, the 3DO’s CEL engine essentially distorted sprites to create 3D shapes, so it had more in common with Saturn’s quad-based 3D architecture than it did with PS1.
The second VPD was not added in response to Sony. That is a myth that just won’t die. They were both always in the design. What was added is the Second SH2 - this came from the hardware designer himself.
Thanks for beating me to it, Pixel Poppy! =P Sega indeed added a second SH2 CPU about a year before launch. Both VDPs were part of the design the whole time.
Sato just stated in a recent interview that they added all of this additional hardware after they were told by a developer that the PlayStation could render 300,000 polygons per second. I could be wrong.
@@MaxAbramson3 Yeah You're correct. I remember reading about this back when Sony first revealed their new machine at E3. Sega scrambled and quickly told their boss and reworked the Saturn after finding out how powerful the new playstation was.
@@abcmaya The Saturn was launched in north America at E3 so if Sega decided to change the design of the Saturn in response to Sony (also not particularly surprising, Sega, like Sony and Nintendo, were on the lookout for competition when designing their respective machines) it was well before E3 since in February 94 the technical specifications of the Saturn were published in the press, 4 months before those supposed for the PS1.
No making the saturn cartridge slot backwards compatibility with the md/genesis & megacd/segacd was there biggest mistake. It would have made for a great transfer over. Play all your classics and all the new games only in Sega.
@@josephrowe2202 Tell that to the Nintendo 64 and Saturn users who chose the PS2 over Game Cube and Dreamcast, backwards compatibility was not to keep old customers but to get new ones, for them it was like getting two new consoles.
Excellent point. SEGA made too many bad decisions. They wasted time and money, also consumers money, on the 32X instead of optimising the Saturn. They should have released SEGA Model 2 as their home console. Hardware was from 1993, so they had enough time to optimise it for console use, even an upgraded SEGA Model 1 console would have been a killer. SEGA had all the IPs back then. With real arcade quality Virtua Racing, Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA etc. they would have made it. The Mega Drive was very successful, because it delivered arcade quality gaming at home.
Just imagine if the Saturn came out the gate instead like you know your Music CD’s, Genesis/Megadrive, Sega CD & Sega 32X Games Collections, well imagine being able to play them all on one machine that also plays the next generation of Sega Games & also plays this new thing called VCD Movies all for $249.
SEGA held up the release of the Saturn to bolt on more expensive hardware to fight AGAINST the PS1. That then necessitated the confusing 32X addon for another $160.
@@JamesChessmanI don’t think they ever intended it to be a souped up genesis/cb/32X. It was already 400 bucks…could you imagine how much more it would cost with h all that stuff?
Here's my memory of the Saturn launch: It was before the (popular use of) internet, and Sega really screwed us with the early release. I was in my early 20's and a Sysop on the #Vidgames forum for CompuServe. I learned from insiders there of the impending launch, only days before. I took the day off work and went to the mall. The guys at Babbage's were really curious how I knew to be sitting outside their shop before opening. I didn't have to fight any crowds - no one knew. I bought the Playstation the day it came out too (but that I reserved). It was pretty obvious, playing both at the same time, which was going to be more popular. Still - I love both... It is what it is.
Sega was absurdly disfunctional at this point in time. They sabotaged themselves so badly with a number of different terrible decisions made by high ranking executives. The way they treated their own Sonic development team really bothers me, though the lack of communication and organization between Sega of America and Sega of Japan, and the decision to go ahead with developing and launching the 32X so soon before the release of the Saturn, is the far more well known blunder. The Sega CD was also a failure, and Sega's overall business strategy was too focused on investing in arcade games, to the long-term detriment of their console business. They were never as financially strong as even Nintendo, and Sony was even richer than Nintendo, so it was never even a fair fight to begin with, but Sega's various bad decisions accelerated the demise of their console business.
The Saturn had a few titles I hold in especially high regard. I'm not entirely certain why, but Nights into Dreams still holds a place in my heart as one of my favorite games ever made. The best way to play the Marvel fighting games at home was hands down on the Saturn. I was awestruck by an advertisement I saw at Wal-Mart showcasing Shinning the Holy Arc, making a return to the dungeon crawling action we saw in Shinning in the Darkness, while using the 3D backgrounds in an advantageous way. The Panzer Dragoon series is fantastic, and really needs a proper modern sequel. This system offered much more amazing games than I ever experienced on the N64. Had not the Playstation had such great titles like Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy VII, PaRappa the Rapper, and Silent Hill as system exclusives at the time, I would probably have seen the Saturn as my favorite system of the generation, despite its flaws.
I feel the same in many ways, although the Saturn is my favourite console of that generation because of those games and the special memories they hold. The Saturn was also the last console I played before I discovered booze and women and put all my money into going out instead, so I think that plays a big part in my nostalgia.
"Sega of America arrogance killed the Saturn in the west".This,someone finally said it. Sony also had a lackluster PS3 launch but had a great comeback because they focused in their core audience and expanded it (a great new market campaign helped a lot too). Imagine if Sega seccured Tomb Raider exclusivity , brought some great japanese exclusive titles and got the licence for the big european football clubs? Here in Brazil fighting games in the arcades were still huge until early 2000s.But as Tec Toy had to wait for SOA releases whe did not get Vampire Savior,Dead or Alive , the versus series and not even King of Fighters games (who had surpassed Street Fighter in popularity here). Saturn would not match PS1 sales but would still be competitive in her main markets besides Japan (Master System and Mega Drive were huge both in Europe and in Brazil). The System may well have survived a little longer and had a comeback in '98 with Sonic Adventure ,Shenmue and Virtua Fighter 3 port (they all started development as Saturn titles) Reading Console Wars it was shocking to know that SOA was so close minded.They thought the company should only focus in Sonic and sport titles,too-japanese centric games would never be a success in the west. That was during Kalinski golden era,way before Stollar. They could had introduced Sakura Wars and made a better market campaign for Virtua Fighter and Nights . Like a Dragon and Persona would never be a hit with Kalinski and Stollar.
I totally agree with everything you said! When I interviewed Mike Katz, he was really critical of Kalinske, said he was only successful with the Genesis because of all the work he had already done, which Kalinske then took took the credit for.
I've always been curious what might have happened if Sega had gone with the SGI hardware. The main complaint that third parties had with the N64 was that it used cartridges. However Sega would probably have went with CDs since this is what the Saturn we got used. Sega could well have had the most capable hardware of that generation...
The saturn 3d implement was competent enough, but sega of japan was too arrogant and stingy about sharing their programming expertise with other developers.
Developing games for N64 was far more difficult than for Saturn. Nintendo delayed N64 over and over due to technical issues and game development issues. If Sega went with the SGI solution it would have came out at least a year too late and even more difficult to develop on.
My favorite console of all time. Had so much potential but both SOJ and SOA had to screw it up. At least it got a large library of really good games with most of them coming from Japan.
Actually the 3D World in Sonic Jam was made up from a cancelled prototype that was meant to be Sonic Adventure for Saturn before Sega made Sonic Team move to it the Dreamcast just one of many Saturn games that moved to Dreamcast, it doesn't use any code from Sonic Xtreme but in fact it uses code and a lot of assets from the special stages found in the Saturn version of Sonic 3D Blast this marks the point Sonic Team were coming back to make a new Sonic game after STI were having a ton of issues with Xtreme as you mentioned, leaving it for two years was the biggest mistake...that and all in fighting between Sega of America and Sega of japan.
Wait a minute...I thought Kalinski and Silicone Graphics were working on a complete redesign? I didn't know Kalinski wanted it integrated into the Saturn's already built systems. I don't even know what something like that would even look like? I have heard the N64 was hard to make games for as well. If true, it could have made the Saturn even more complex. Then again, the N64's GPU with the Saturn's crazy CPU and RAM setup could have been just what Sega needed. It would have been interesting seeing basically an N64 with a CD ROM drive. I still think it would have been an albatross of a console. Tons of potential that would remain untapped.
I miss my Saturn. I hate that it's so hard to emulate on Steam Deck, none of my ROMs work on it. Dark Savior will half boot with sound, but that's it. I really want to play the first two GunGriffon games so badly.
Same here my guy. I had an amazing collection of sega plus others. Had to sell the lot and for a crap price in 2013. Its my single most biggest regret, although obviously very thankful for emulation. Its the Saturn though I miss the most due to its hard to emulate.
Um it's pretty decent on steam deck...even that low cost ambernic arc can do a lot of games ok. I mean it's not as easy a ps1 because everyone's mom's vibe can emulate that
Getting emulation to work on Steam Deck has been a headache for me. It's powerful enough to emulate anything from 6th gen and earlier but the emulation options are all buggy
The Sega Saturn's botched launch in both North America and Europe meant that third-party software houses started to lose faith with Sega altogether, with Electronic Arts refusing to support the Dreamcast being one example.
Sonic X-treme was being developed by Sega Technical Institute. There's a rumour that the NiGHTS engine was provided and Yuji Naka threatened to leave Sega as a result, so they were ordered to stop using it, though Naka says that it was just an excuse to cover up their failures and that both engines were coded completely differently anyway. Regardless, it was a mess.
@@CovenantAgentLazarussega of america was behind sonic xtreme, and not one of their games had ever been good outside maybe sonic 2 which yuji naka himself had to lead development on.. sonic spinball was decent (still far below older pinball games like the crush series, time cruise, and would be wholly beaten by later ones like kyuutenkai), but their output other than that like chakan, comic zone, the ooze, kid chameleon etc was always trash.. no matter how technically apt the workers might have been, they just never learned good game design.. sonic xtreme would never have been good and would only have damaged the sega and sonic brands further..
I can't think of any 3D polygon game for Saturn/Playstation/N64 that matches the sense of speed that Sonic is known for. F-Zero X is the only exception, but all of the polygons are used on racers and tracks, and almost nothing on the background. Saturn could handle an ultimate 2D sprite-based Sonic with 3D segments, but how would that have looked in the 1990s, when Nintendo and Sony's mascots had 3D games? A full-blown Sonic "adventure" made for the Saturn would have had embarrassing results in the '90s console wars, though I admit a 2D powerhouse Sonic would have aged much better
@@arcadianlhadattshirotsughW33Z The game would have been fine if TWO people werent left alone to develop it on an unrealistic deadline. The saturn had a LOT of raw power and nobody took advantage of it. It was VERY possible to make a good sonic game. They all just had atrocious management hold them back.
Can you imagine if Sega Japan had listened to Kalinski and the Saturn had 3D similar to the N64 as well as CD ROM technology and its 2D powerhouse hardware? That “$299” moment wouldn’t have had the same impact.
What sega should,ve said in early 1995 to NOT released the saturn on may as a surprise launch BUT release it as TEST MARKET tactic to see how many peoples were interested in the sega saturn and built on it,if sega just told retailers,game developers and gamers that the console was only launched as a TESTmarket strategy,am sure both parties would,ve be waaay less angry at sega, Also we should not forget that despite sega never came up with an actual 3D sonic platformer,BUT sonic R was 3D,sonic jam with builtin ported sonic games did had 1 3D level and sonic 3D blast did had 3D bunos stages,for wich screen shots of it were all even put on the back of those game box art pakages,so sega did atleast tried some alternative ways around these mistakes,in fact the sega saturn did sold at average even slightly better then the sega dreamcast,thing is the sega saturn could,ve sold waaay worse.
Super annoying that you proclaim to know something about this console and then consider it "less advanced". Absolutely not the case. It was hands down better at 2d and when put to the test at 3d with talented devs, every bit capable at 3d. Hard to handle yes, the ps1 definitely had it there, but your video is just dishonest
I don't consider it less advanced, but the press of the era did, because they were obsessed with 3D. I also talked about how the Saturn destroys the PS1 when it comes to 2D in the video. I don't believe I was dishonest at all, I think you have completely missed the context.
It wasn't cost reduced, it was pretty much identical, I mentioned this in the video briefly, Sega just made a big loss on selling it. Cost reduced is something like the completely redesigned Mega Drive 2 or Atari 2600 Jr.
Im a SEGA fan 4 Lyfe ... That being said they messed up not expanding on the Sonic Jam open world game. That eas so fun to play and run around in. That is like a hamster wheel for me.
Fun fact : the Hi Saturn Navigation mmp-1000 is the only Saturn that doesn’t output RGB. You can however modify it internally if needed. I have it and I don’t mind because i play it with the LCD screen that was produced for ( which is also a composite screen therefore the reason for a non rgb console is perhaps behind that ?) The Super prologue 21 is also not RGB but this machine wasn’t sold for the public, only karaoke entertainment theaters had it. If you have a question about the Saturn I may help you 😉.
and if you ever get the chance to play sonic R DO NOT CHOOSE SONIC ON THE FIRST LEVEL. knuckles and tails are the two that handle the best on that level. i dont knw about the other levels iv never made it past level 2
11:00 the more time passes, the more I think they should have made a 3D side scrolling version of the classic Sonic games. Something about 3D movement freedom never really fully made sense to me for Sonic games. Speed and 3D never really worked well toghether unless it was for racing games. Something like Crash Bandicoot was the sweet spot for platformers, but even that game was way slower paced than any Sonic. I enjoyed the Christmas Nights Sonic special stage more than the Sonic Jam "playable menu" feature, though. I remember thinking "I would play the hell out a Sonic game if done like this!" What a dick and stupid move was adding "3D" to Sonic 3D Blast. The morons at the top of SEGA (both in US and Japan) in the second half of the 90s killed the Saturn and the brand.
I bought one at the time alongside a ps1 but I can't for the life of me recall why. Whatwas the purpose of the cartridge slot? I used it for a converter but what was it made for ?
I often think that the shift to 3D so hard and fast was an error as it reduced the creativity on offer, perhaps as it sets constraints via gameplay and technologicla nous. The later indie boom provides some indiction of jow much there was to get out of 2D and 2.5D
Fantastic system, fantastic games. It’s a shame. Sega really we’re happy that the Saturn placed 2nd in Japan during that era, but at the cost of losing the western market. They should’ve figured out how to do both
Tom Kalinske the Man that saved the Sega Genesis also tried to save the Sega Saturn, but Sega of Japan was too arrogant and wouldn't listen to him. This even after Kalinske saved the Genesis. The hardware that Tom Kalinske had a deal with Silicon Graphics to be the Sega Saturn HW later became the N64 Hardware after Sega of Japan's arrogance had them turn it down.
Maybe but Tom had a plan for the Saturn to use the HW that ended up being the N64 HW. They could've used the 32X to get them to 1995 instead of launching the clusterphuck that was the Sega Saturn. I was a day1 owner of a black Sega Saturn. I can tell you firsthand 3D was an afterthought on the Sega Saturn. That was embarrassing for a company that was a pioneer in 3D with games like Zaxxon 3d then later with Virtua racing, Virtua Fighter, Daytona USA, etc. He saved the Genesis and could've saved the Sega Saturn as well. @@TheLairdsLair
@@TheLairdsLairNo, Kalinske just wanted to add the $49.95 SVP Lock On that so many were excited about. SEGA Already had Virtul Racing, Virtual Fighter, Star Wars Arcade, and Daytona USA made for that chip. Think of how many Genesis consoles they could have sold by releasing that in March 1994 as planned. And they could have focused on the Sega.CD + SVP platform for the next 2-3 years.
@@TheLairdsLair @TheLairdsLair As he should. But SoA resisted the January 1994 roadmap change, which was ordered by Tokyo. $50 in March makes more sense than $160 in November. And the rumor mill had already whetted appetites for that SVP Lock On and at least 2-3 more games per consumer.
I'm a big fan of the channel but your so-called facts are off. Saturn having dual GPU's was part of the design from the get-go and in some of the very 1st specs leaked out, Hitachi did not make the GPU's that was Yamaha, it was a 2nd SH-2 that was added to counter the PS1 spec's, but that was at the request of Sato-san. Also, SEGA Japan was right to turn down SG-L for the Saturn hardware, Their chipset was overpriced and massively delayed and hardly outdid the Saturn for polygons and even harder to develop on. Also, the 3DO used quads like Saturn and even Model 1 and 2.
I'm sorry to say, this video misses the mark in a lot of aspects. For instance: yes, the Saturn was designed for 3D fro the getgo - the VDP never was redesigned. Using quads was actually more effective than triangles, as you needed less polygons to cover up larger textured surfaces. There was no "cheating" by using sprites instead of quads - that's the same rendering pipeline, in an era with no z-buffer for any console. Sega also showcased in devkit demos how you could use a single warped quadrangle to draw both of Sonic's rounded eyes, interestingly enough. No mention that devkits were hard to get because Sega ran into a CPU shortage by both adding an extra one in the Saturn itself, and using the same hardware in the 32X. This delayed the release of software tooling too, such as Sega GL, a major setback for third-party software titles. The Silicon Graphics chipset was first being worked on by Sega, but they went another direction due to costs, production deadlines, and more importantly major hardware bugs - the revision that ended up in the N64 already was basically debugged by Sega, came years late in the market (with Nintendo having to run ads asking customers to wait for 2 years or so after the PS1 was released), and wasn't exactly a homerun either considering the framerates achieved; interestingly it seems Nintendo had no plans past the SNES and Sega's work came in the right-ish time for them. No mention that the Saturn Navi features a GPS, and was meant for in-car entertainment. No mention of CD+G, karaoke, MPEG VCD, MIDI support either, which is a bit disappointing. No mention of the planned external GPU rumored for Virtua Fighter 3, etc.
It's 10 amazing facts, not 20. I can only include so much, so I try to stick to the major points and the ones I think people will find most interesting. Also the Jaguar had a Z-Buffer and I read actual interviews with Saturn devs where they talked about using sprites that looked like polygons to up the count. This was a common trick on consoles that had monster sprite capabilities and had also been used on the Atari Lynx and Jaguar. You can't please everyone 🙄
the Saturn is viewed through rose tinted glasses, in retrospect. its not a good system and it never was. im glad people can find solace in still playing Saturn games, because if it werent for us neck beards every saturn and saturn game and ram cart and memory module would be in a landfill if sega had their way.
The business strategy of Sega was so poorly judged they went from almost 50% worldwide console share in 1992 to about 1% in 1996. The Saturn was such a disaster they lost 30 million uses in the process of not obtaining the Wallmart shelf presence. It's unbelievable that no contracts were drawn prior to releasing the system or these men, closely involved as full time professionals in the highest positions in the retail industry made such a misstep. Whatever the case, history is written by the victors. So the history is. Sega lost the biggest lead in if not the video game industry, all consumer products. From billions in revenue to looking for a buyer in the space of about 4 years. If only the media had presented a positive perspective to the public on the machine, it might have done very well.
if only sega of america didnt fuck this system the way they did like how can ya be so stupid to not want jrpgs or games like sakura wars on ur system like even back then lots of those would have sold the system but nope and then ya get the internal fighting between sega usa and sega japan like a bunch of kids
Good morning, Sega was dead when the Dreamcast launched. (Saturn)VDP1 and 2 should have been one chip and the third should have been a M68000 for backwards compatibility with the Genesis and the 32x should have been a bad dream. Oh well Sega died in 1992 when they decided to chase the SNES instead of go their own way. Very few games after 1992 were good, thank you to those who made the good ones. Good video as always.
an afterthought maybe the 32x was the way to go but as the Neptune only so it did not need the Genesis at all. cancel the Saturn and work on the Dreamcast early...
Very few games were good past 1992? Ok, so subjective maybe.... But that just isn't true in any shape or form. Saturn in its own right had tonnes of good games, especially in Japan where there are 100s upon 100s.
I think changes in the consumer landscape and cost of R & D that were happening anyway, coupled with how the PlayStation changed the landscape in one fell swoop, meant that companies like Sega didn't have the budget, the ability to position themsleves, and people not willing to put up with new system every 2 years as they once were, meant they were going to flounder. Notice how many systems they created? I still come across new ones or versions after more than a decade into retro stuff lol. It split their focus. In addition, Sony was bigger than Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sega combined in 1994 (looking at figures from that year), and so the PlayStation was merely developed by a smallish group within its Music division, I think. They would have barely blinked if it failed.
@Tolbat a 32x standalone console wouldn't be able to compete against PlayStation and N64. There was no need to rush new hardware since MegaDrive was still selling well until they decided to discontinue the console in 1995. Sega should have launched a machine comparable to Model 1 in terms of raw power late 1995 in Japan, mid 1996 EU and NA.
Sega just made so many mistakes just unreal. As u aay releeasing early in america and pissing off big retailers . Not knowing what games people wanted from japan and completely missing so many of there own killer games. Think sony panicked them and this lead to so many bad decisions
Too bad the developers at that time were not enough fast to learn to code multi-core. Today within the IT industry, dinosaurs are out fast. It was different during that time with the culture that it was cool to be a grungy junkie loser 😂"Oh no ! It's too commercial, waaaaahhhhhhh I want my heroin !" 🤣
