After the making of the SR1911 10MM Unboxing video I started to receive emails asking about the chamber support. I decided to the best of my ability compare the chamber support between 4 10MM 1911's under my bench top magnifying glass.
So, in observing what you perceive as chamber support what do you believe you have learned? Are you implying there are handguns that are unsafe to shoot with SAAMI spec ammo? Be advised I already know the answer so think this through. Do you understand brass web thickness?
All of these are more than safe for SAAMI spec 10MM ammo, I should have stated that. I believe most of the concern came from those shooting hot 10MM ammo out of chambers that had loose chamber support and getting bulged brass. I believe I stated somewhere below many debate chamber support, this most likely started when Glock started in the 10MM business. Glocks statement at one time was their chamber is also safe for SAAMI spec ammo and part of the reason for their ultra reliability in the Glock 20 and 29 at the time was due to their chamber support. If one were to read between the lines you would think the tighter the chamber support the more potential there is for reliability issue of which I do no subscribe. Though the Delta Elite chamber has the least chamber support I personally feel completely safe and totally comfortable shooting 10MM even some of my own SAAMI spec hot 10MM rounds through it, and others should feel the same.
So, we are in agreement all these chambers are safe in you are using SAAMI spec ammo, which we all should be. My next question is why all the fuss over an over inflated idea of "case head support" when you never touch on the web thickness of the brass? If you are shooting an ammo and they have a disclosure over certain firearms you should never use that ammo. Do you agree?
We are in agreement on this. You would have to ask those creating all the fuss or that have the concern over case head support. When I reviewed the Ruger 10MM on some forums I got the question about the chamber support of the SR1911 and decided to do this comparison to answer that question. I did not touch on case web thickness as it could be a video by itself and honestly that really wasn't the question. The question was how is the Ruger SR1911 chamber support.
I see where you are going but people who buy handguns should understand case head support isnot near as important as the marketing director would have you believe.
In the name of supporting new comers to the 10MM this is where both you and I rangehot can be a bit more detailed. I don't think case head support is as important as the internet and marketing directors would have you believe. All though when you combine case head support and web thickness -- what you mentioned previously it becomes very important especially to us reloaders :) Though I have not personally tested the hardness of brass many seem to think or believe Federal Brass is a little softer than others. Shooting the same load (New Brass, Primer, Powder, Bullet) out of 4 different 10MM pistols only one pistol caused the infamous highly talked about case head bulge seen here dayattherange.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/DSC00449.jpg I utilized the same load which I know is in SAAMI spec, 1 full grain below Hodgdon max with Starline Brass and did not get the bulge from the pistol that caused the bulge with FC or Federal brass seen in the link above. What I am saying is his, obey the ammo manufactures statements about what pistols to utilize with their ammo. Stay within SAAMI spec with your reloads and you should be safe, but together case head/chamber support, brass web thickness and hardness are a very important together. Understanding one without the other doesn't mean a whole lot which is what I believe you were trying to infer rangehot.
The delta elite came out in 1986 when the only 10mm loads were what people today would call "hot loads" the velocity and the energy was comparable to a 41 mag and they handled them no problem. The only issue was the frame cracking issue but that was fixed by 1987. The delta elite predates the rest of these pistols by decades and was made to handle loads a lot hotter than modern 10mm rounds
Useful information. Unsupported chambers in high performance cartridges are a curse on the shooting world. "STOP IT RIGHT NOW" manufacturers! Seriously. A well-loaded .40 serves my purposes but they sometimes suffer the same problem. Thanks for sharing this knowledge.
Nice, I ended the Delta Delta elites chamber issue with Freddy Karts NM barrel. I didnt need to alter the frame for a ramped barrel and I increased the support area by 50% and tightened up the groups by almost 100%. Why Colt can't get it right still, is baffling.
That's awesome man. So you just bought a new barrel and dropped it in? I just got a Delta Elite yesterday and was thinking about the easiest solution to fix this problem. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Springfield XDM10 Elite has fully supported chamber. It’s also a great buy with extra free mags. Wish it was offered in 5 or 6 inch though, limited to 4.5” unfortunately.
For anecdotal observations, I'm going to agree with this lineup. To make it more scientific ,with minimal cost, you can get a hastings triplet loupe in 10x,20x or 30x magnification to really see what is happening up close. A fired case could be coated in magic marker and spun in the chamber to see any contact areas ,non contact areas will not have effect on the ink. Dyechem blue is probably even better ,but it costs substantially more than a marker snagged from a grand kid or a neighbor with a young kid who is just discovering walls are able to be drawn on... The parents might well pay you to take their markers at that point. Lol.
The Remington is just like the Para; except for the Remington suck factor. I think the Freedom Group's mission is to acquire all of the small or struggling gun companies; and destroy their products and reputations.
As a newbie to the world of pistols i've done a lot of research for a year and a half. Especially on the 10mm. I'm interested in woods carry bear protection with great penetration and lots of bullets. In my research i have found that the Sig Sauer has issues of going off when it is dropped. Now i do not know if this is true or if it is isolated incidents and a lot of people say thay have never had that problem. But why, as a person who is going to buy two or three pistols take a chance on buying a problem pistol? Same with chamber support. Lots of people shoot hard cast and lead bullets with no issues out of their nonchamber supported guns. And many people say that the problem only exist in reloads. But multiple youtube videos show blow ups from guns with nonchambered barrels. Both with reloads and factory ammo with p + p powder loads. There is a newer video talking about a blow up after putting in an aftermarket chambered barrel. Why oh why would i choose a nonsupported chambered barreled 10mm? I will not. At this time HK and springfield are the only polymer 10mm handguns with fully supported barrel that i know of that do not have feeding issues. Smith & Wesson have feeding issues and Sig Sauer has feeding issues, the Kimber Camp gun has feeding issues and low capacity single stack capability. As a new gun owner of 10mm I want a gun that has full chamber support and is safe to shoot all the time no matter what bullet i get.
You don't want to destroy your Brass if you reload. You can use the old brass for 40 S&W, 357 Sig, as well as 10mm. You can custom make the perfect load for yourself.
Well, There's no turning back. Albeit the Ruger SR1911 came in second, I'm still set on buying it. Besides, compared to the Para, a hair off shouldn't make a heck of a difference in the Ruger's performance.
Don't turn back most would say there was a tie with the Ruger and the Para. Many will debate chamber support most saying the more support the more unreliable the pistol will be when feeding. Glock uses this line of thinking for their Glock 20 10MM line of pistols. Official statements have been made by Glock saying it is safe and makes their system ultra reliable over others. I was simply trying to answer some of the questions I had received in email.
Jesus, dayattehrange, when it comes to firearms your knowledge is boundless. Now I'm really glad I came aboard. Ruger SR1911 it won't long before I take you home.
Yeah the glock is safe enough that I had a case rupture on my 2nd gen 20 some years ago. Thankfully it only sheared the mag catch and that's it. I also have a compact tanfoglio EAA witness that I've been trying to get reliable with a 40 barrel. I changed out the spring rod with a henning rod (slightly shorter, far better support on the frame) and had a case rupture in the first mag of 10mm I was test firing (looks like the bullets never properly seated as the primer hits were all off center). Thankfully that only blew out a polycarb mag floor plate. My faith in the 10mm cartridge is a bit shaken, it seems to be very hard on recoil springs and frames. I certainly wouldn't trust a compact chambered in 10mm
Not sure about hard on recoil springs. I have a few manuals of 45ACP which state to replace your recoil spring every 3K rounds. But to me it is like maintenance on a car, if you drive on dusty roads in stop and go traffic you should change the oil more frequently. So if firing hot +P or +P+ rounds you want to change the spring more often.
I have put several thousand rounds through my Delta Elite ... no chamber support-related malfunctions whatsoever ... I do NOT recycle handgun brass in any of my handguns, so this video did not have any relevance for me.
Chamber support has no bearing on whether or not you can safely shoot Spec Loaded Ammo through a chamber. After all, Buffalo Bore lists their hottest 10mm Ammo as being "safe" for Delta Elite, and this is one of the pistols they use to test ammo. Where you ran into trouble with 10mm and the "unsupported" chambers was back in the very Early Colt Delta Elite days. They have now been corrected. Also, Glocks are well known to be the "Least" chamber supported pistol, but yet they cycle and fire every commercial 10mm ammo safely. Even Buffalo Bore and Atomic is safe to shoot. So, unless you plan on grossly overloading your 10mm to past max data specs, you will be fine. If you are overloading the 10mm then you have the wrong cartridge and need to step up to a 41 Magnum.
I've fired thousands of very hot rounds through my Colt's...with absolutely NO problems. The internal web of the brass extends well up into the chamber and they will not bulge like the Glocks...ever. Manufacturers must walk a fine line of chamber support balanced by feeding reliability...and the Colt is OK IMHO. This is an interesting comparison...but I'd use other metrics to decide which gun to buy and not worry about chamber support.
Chamber support was mainly a concern for those considering Glocks in 10MM and very early on Colts. I have seen bulged brass from early model Colt Delta's with factory Hornady ammo. I should have mentioned they all will be safe with SAAMI spec'd ammunition. Some hot factory loads like underwood has been through the Colt Delta without issue.
I have a new gen 2 delta elite anf a glock 40mos in 10mm. The colt was bulging cases with pretty weak ammo. My glock hasn't bulged any. But im sure alot of it has to do with the brass itself
All of these are fine and its all because Glock barrells dis Not have good support. All the keyboard warriors at this time were worried about all 10mm's I suppose. Perhaps they should just worry about Glock 10mm's and check them instead. Nice video comparison of how well 1911's support the brass cases !
im thinking about getting the ruger for a woods gun. it will be a perfect sidearm for those just in case situations. also could hunt with it during alternative method season.
How much chamber support do you need? Naked eye means little. If you could section a case you have a better understanding of how much support you need. In engineering things are measured and everything is measurable. On automatic headspace is derived on the mouth of the case. A cheap caliper would help you measure for what ever reason. I have and have fired the original Norma ammunition in various 10mm pistols I own and not had any case bulging problems.
You should re-do with video to add these others side by side: (1) Tanfoglio Witness / Witness Hunter, (2) RIA / Armscor - any of their many models, (3) Dan Wesson, and (4) Glock - you've got half of the most popular ones.
I belong to a really nice private club which members often loan me stuff to review but I do not believe or have never seen anyone with a Witness. The RIA, Dan Wesson and Glock may be possible not sure about the Gen 4 Glock.
I Really DO appreciate your videos. It's obvious you love 10mm's and your thoroughness helps those of us who don't have the experience or exposure level that you do. As far as case/chamber support goes, are there other pistols that you have that you have or have seen that you can draw comparisons to? Such as, EAA Witness, Dan Wesson or Fusion 1911's, the Sig P220 in 10mm, etc.? Thanks much ! Dan C.
KIM COVENEY I would definitely carry a Load like that! I hear a lot of people saying "Bear with me!" With all these Bears around, I would want to be heavily armed! 😂
Have you shot the Para 10mm much? I have a Remington R1 Hunter 10mm (same as Para) that has never fed correctly. The rounds don't chamber all the way (1/8" to 1/4" from the slide closing all the way). This happens 2 or 3 times per magazine with all types of ammo.
I think the DElTA would be find with any regular factory loads on the market today. When shooting the really hot, high pressure loads caution is the word here as not every barrel is not going to be exactly alike. After having shot these in my Dan Wesson Raz. 10 I doubt anyone is going to shoot a steady diet or large quantity of these hot loads. My old bones just won't take them long plus they aren more of a special purpose round anyway. Mikey
if you own all these 10's, a good test would be to use the 135gr Underwood ammo. test fire one round from each gun, measure the cartridge case before and after, and compare the data. i own both a Glock 20SF with a fully supported Wolf barrel, and a Ruger SR1911-10mm. they both shoot well with the underwood, no smiles. BTW, I replaced the Glock barrel with the Wolf before ever shooting the 20SF. no regrets.
Where did you read that I've read all over the Underwood website and never seen one thing about not shooting Underwood out of deltas?I've ran alot of Underwood and double tap through my delta wich is about 4 years old.on the double tap website they actually tell you they test some of the double tap ammo in deltas.
@@johnklatt3522 I can tell you I have been ordering Underwood for about 4 years now and I've never seen that on them. I also shoot Buffalo Bore, Double Tap and leigh high defense and have never had an issue. The Delta handles everything thing I've used in it as good or better than my Rock Island , G20 and my G40.
@@johnklatt3522 I usually use the Underwood with speer bonded jacketed hollow points in 180 gr. The very first colt and 10mm I had around 1995 was the colt double eagle 10mm and I loved. I dont shoot handloads out of it but any factory loaded ammo I I shoot. I've shot quet a few Underwood extreme penetrators out of the delta elite with no issues and I'm pretty sure the are well over 700 foot pounds at the muzzle. Stock barrel and haven't even had a bulged case.
@@johnklatt3522 From what I understand and from talking to colt only the first generation had that issue. They fixed the problem for the second generation. That's my delta in my profile pic. I've always wanted that pistol.
You are measuring the amount of support when the cartridge is as far in the firing chamber as it will go. How do you know that when the gun is in battery and the cartridge is being held by the extractor, the cartridge position is the same?
My one question is are we comparing apples to apples here? And by this I mean it would be great if you were to take a set of calipers and ensure the overall length of each one of the rounds was identical or labeled with the indifference of overall length. This would facilitate a more accurate representation of how each chamber is in comparison to one another. Yes I realize this video is now 3 years old but I will look and your library of videos see if you have an updated video. I really appreciate the time you took to put this video out long live the 10 mm.
@@DrunkPisces Before those were known I had a chance to pickup the Hunter for $499 way back but I looked at it and said what is that. Started to look for magazines and stuff online could not find any, the shop that had it said it was their first and didn't know much about it now I am kicking myself everytime someone mentions one. So thank you for that DrunkPisces 😂
I’m looking to buy a 10mm 1911 in the near future (Christmas hopefully!) and I’m stumped. There is someone who has an old second or third year production Colt delta for sale, and then I have my eye on the new ruger 10mm, or just a new Colt delta, which should I get? Money isn’t a factor. But just tell me out of the ones I listed, not wanting to buy a Dan Wesson Valor or any of theirs. Might be interested in Kimber, not sure yet though. Not interested in sig, I’m currently getting rid of my sigs, I’m fed up with how they treat their customers and how you can buy a brand new sig 1911 for 1100 and walk out the door and it’s worth 700 bucks. It’s ridiculous
I am sorry to hear about your frustration with Sig. But let's get on to business :) After shooting these for a while here is the order I would rate them in as it pertains to value. Value means something different to everyone, keep this in mind. 1) Ruger SR1911 10MM 2) Kimber Camp Guard 10 3) Colt Delta Elite 4) Para Hunter Of those you asked about, I would get. 1) Ruger SR1911 10MM 2) New Colt Delta 10MM 3) Older Generation Colt 10MM Looking at the second ranking keep in mind I would never buy an older model Colt Delta, neither will I own an EAA 10MM due to frame cracking. Now the Colt Delta Elite frame cracking was in pre-production early models and supposedly this was fixed when they went into production. But I have seen one with the frame cracked. You can research this yourself just know there is a lot of false information out there, which is one reason I just prefer to stay with the later model not to mention I hate the wrap around grips. On the EAA the slide and frame cracking problem has been fixed as well in later production models. Hope this helps.
You just earned a subscriber. Great detail and information! I appreciate it man! Have you ever owned a sig? Have you went though what I’m going though?😂😂
I have never had an issue with Sig support, having said that I have never had to send anything back to Sig. I have access to a 10MM Sig but it doesn't belong to me. Maybe that will be my next review.
Dayattherange I mean the customer service is just like a meh aspect, but no joke, what aggravated me the most about sig is that no one really knows a lot about them and like I said earlier, you pay 1100 for a 1911 and walk outside, now it’s worth 700. I payed 1408 for an elite Stainless and was getting 7 and 800 dollar offers on it. It’s kinda made me resent sig to be honest
do your research the ramped barrels are the least supportive i mean you can obviously tell. not sure what you are looking at for support but the delta is supported 360 degrees while the other having ramps aren’t supported but about 270 degrees.
How is the chamber support on the Sig Legion or Sig 10's in general? I am looking to get a back up 10mm for hunting in Grizz country and I was looking at Kimber & Sig with Hardcast Cast bullets.
That is a very difficult one to answer. In short chamber support I believe will have no impact on accuracy. Though I have found my delta with the least chamber support shoots outstanding groups with heavier higher pressure 180gr to 200gr bullet loads which makes me nervous about safety. Again if you stay within SAAMI spec you will be fine, the light 135gr loads lighter pressure shoot ok just not as good as the heavy load. Also just because mine is this way doesn't mean your pistol will like the same loads.
@@Dayattherange Agreed on the fact that every pistol is a different beast. My question was just to seek out your preference out of these 4 on their accuracy for you. The contenders for me would all be 5" options. Thanks and keep up the great vids!
@@sparky_-mf2cs You too enjoy your holidays. There is another 10MM chamber support video also, My buddy just got an XD but I think we all know where that stands.
