Next, get an accurate ohmeter/VOM, and measure the R of each leg. The problem arises because a panel's voltage drops with an increasing load. Put a big ass resistor on the load side and start measuring things (BAR)....not the 30-06 kind. 😊
There are conversion charts for same wire sizes being combined, different wires gauges being combined. I use 16/3AWG which works out to a 11AWG cable. Close enough for my setup. You could always 14/3AWG and end up with a 9AWG cable.
Remember you have a 3rd conductor in the extension cord you can put in parallel with one of the other ones - which will drop your overall loop resistance. I would suggest pairing it with the negative side... just for some consistency. The negative leg would then drop resistance by maybe 1/3rd (won't be a full half, as the ground conductor likely isn't sized the same as the current-carrying conductors). Still helps.
@@TheGeekiestGuy yeah, typically see all conductors the same in the lighter cords. Differences usually only arise in the heavier cords, such as the 6/3 8/1 combo.
Suggestions: 1) use only the neutral and ground wires from the extension cord. This would help prevent a giant amount of voltage hitting something if it were plugged in wrong. It's not a foolproof or perfect thing, but it should greatly mitigate this risk. 2) use something like a bongo tie and make your pigtail longer. The bongo tie can then wrap the extension cord with that pigtail together, which should A) help ensure they don't come unplugged, B) ensure that folks realize something odd is going on there, C) reduce the likelihood of anyone plugging into actual AC. As others have noted, DC voltage over long distances has a lot of loss, so don't expect high current or perfection if this is going a ways. Cheers.
Extension cords are a great source for some nice antenna wire, too! I have made a couple of 40m dipoles with a cheap extension cord and they have all copper wire.
I replaced my QTH long wire antenna with scrap extension cord wire that was being thrown out (previously scrapped sweeper cord wire spliced to the length I wanted.) It was 100ft, so an easy 300ft of wires for me for free.
Somebody suggested boosting the voltage. That's the key. With an MPPT charge controller, it will efficiently drop the voltage down as needed for your battery. Check the max input voltage on your charge controller and make certain the VOC on the panels when added in series will be below the controller max. Then series at the panel and run higher voltage thru the extension cord. Higher voltage, lower amps, less loss to transfer the same power.
I was thinking along the same lines as he started, but as short as those adapters are, it'd be pretty difficult to mistake and and plug it into a 120VAC circuit. But if he did, it sure would release a lot of magic smoke!
@@stevenemert837The concern would be using one of those adapters on ONE end of the extension cord, and plugging the OTHER, unadapted end 100ft away into a wall socket, then thinking the PowerPole end was relatively safe low-voltage stuff when it’s not.
I've had a set in my go kit for years. I just epoxied them into the shell. Positive to Neutral and Negative to Ground, just in case someone else plugs these into something they shouldn't. I use 10 and 12 ga extension cords, so less drop. Useful.
You can decrease your Resistive losses by increasing the gage of your wire or by increasing your Voltage, ergo decreasing your Current. By putting the panels in series you increase your Voltage reducing your Current and therefore your effect from Resistance. From a safety standard never mix connector types, mistakes will and do happen. Someday you may forget or a newcomer to your system may not know what you have done. Always, Always keep your runs of conductors as short as is possible and use the largest conductor as is reasonably possible. Never forget Power is = voltage * Current or I 2rd * R. Ohms law is the law, not a suggestion. The experiment was worthwhile. Thanks for the video.
@@kd5you1 Of course it might. The charge controller would have to swapped out for one with a higher rating. Charge controllers are available in 12, 48, 96 volts and maybe others. The most common for off grid homes is 48 volts.
One word for you, dolly. I have 600Ah worth of batteries, charge controller and inverter permanently attached to a dolly (hand cart). From the dolly I run a super heavy duty 8 gauge extension cord inside for the 120 VAC. Point being if you must run long wires it's preferable to do it with AC. You have much less energy loss with AC than you do with DC over long runs of wire.
That is what I did! I used a 4-wheel push cart for one setup and a hand truck for another. I replaced the two wheels on the push cart that do not swivel with two that do. It makes it so much easier to maneuver around my garage and tighter spaces. The push cart is not as travel friendly around the property, but it great around the house and garage. The upper tray I built a cover so I store cables and what not in there. I added a third shelve where I placed the 3000/6000w inverter. The hand truck I modified so I could add four additional wheels. When the dolly is upright, the weight is on the four wheels, when tilted I move it as a dolly is moved when carrying a load.
DC is actually more efficient because it doesn't build and collapse the magnetic field at 60hz (or 50hz in some countries). That's why the long distance power transmission lines are changing to DC. The only thing that matters is higher voltage transfers the same amount of power with less amps. Amps cause the losses, and in the old days there was no efficient way to change the voltage of DC but there was with AC. It's the 21st century now.
All things considered this is actually a great idea I think. Reminds me of those new Waco-Powerpole conectors. It’s something you might not use a lot, or ever, but if you’re in a position where you would need something quirky exactly like that that might just save your bacon! I might make a couple up myself and get some Waco-Powerpole connectors too to throw in my bag of goodies. Also a thought… it might be a pain but you could always look for some welding wire. Thick heavy stuff but very flexible and shouldn’t be too hard to find if you want minimal voltage drop/loss.
Great Idea. Just my 2 cents. Coils of wire actually make an inductor. It would have been better if you straightened them out. Also if you really want to see some weird stuff put a magnet in the center of those loops.
On field day we had 2 extension cords employed. One for a small solar system and one for our rotator control cable. You can’t screw up the hookup because the plugs only go one way. All 3 conductors were used for the rotator and 2 used on the other for solar DC. Use what you got.
You bring up several important factors that anyone configuring a deployable solar system needs to consider. Knowing the specifications for your charge controller will influence decisions on where in the physical wiring to place the LiFePo charge controller, and whether to wire the PV panels in series or parallel. In every case, it is always be better to minimize distance from battery-to-radio to avoid DC voltage drop. Consider a POTA deployment where you want to have solar panels some distance from the battery and radio, because you prefer to operate in the shade. Or perhaps the utility power is out and you want to operate from indoors. As with battery-to-radio wiring for DC, it is best to minimize distance between charge controller and battery. But that means that the panel-to-charge controller distance is the long leg that is susceptible to voltage drop. Since many charge controllers have an input range from 12 to 50V to produce 14.6V for the battery, and most panels supply 20V in full sunlight, any voltage drop on the panel-to-charge controller distance will be compensated for by the charge controller. It will still output 14.6V, though it will take longer to charge the battery at a lower current. However, there are some excellent charge controllers that are desirable because they have no RFI, like the Powerwerx MPPT-300, but which have an input voltage specification of 20 to 50V. If the charge controller’s input is less than 20V, such as when a panel is in less than full sunlight, or there is voltage drop in a long run of wire from panel-to-charge controller, the controller is operating out of spec. It’s performance will be unpredictable or it may fail to charge at all. One solution is to wire two, (ideally matched wattage) panels in series. Together in full sunlight they produce 40V for the charge controller, which is well within spec. Even in lower light conditions and with a long run of wire, the voltage drop will be compensated for and the charge controller will still provide 14.6V to the LiFePo battery.
I think this is really a great idea. People should not get wrapped around the axles regarding voltage drop. The pros of the adapters you made bring some great options. Extension cords are everywhere and are durable. Great for outdoor use. Great for improvised emergency setups. I think I’ll make a set of these to keep in my camper. Thanks, Mike!
This is a good demo, Mike. I know some charge controllers do a test draw on wire when you plug them in. If you had a 10 gauge extension cord, you'd probably get that 9 amps for a slightly longer distance.
Excellent video. I built a battery box for my 100 Ah LIFEPO battery that I charge with a 100 volt power panel. I made an extension cord using a 12 foot 10 AWG wire and power poles. The extension cord runs from the battery box to the mobile ham radio. I don’t have the measuring tools, but I would imagine my losses are less. The battery and solar controller are inches from each other in the battery box.
Just get 50 ft of 10 or 12 Gauge automotive zip cord. It will cost more than a cheap AC extension, but no adapters and lower loss. Those AC to Power Pole adapters will work in an emergency but also add to the loss. Another thing to consider is what kind of wire. I always double-check to avoid "CCA" wire. I keep Power Pole connectors in my kit, including the heavy duty ones for 8 gauge and xt and solar connectors. Good video.
I've been doing this for solar for about 15+ years. I just cut the extension cord ends off and attach Anderson PP directly to one end and ring terminals to the other end. 100 foot runs through the winters here in Alaska. Works just fine. Always good to experiment though and thank you for the video.
You’re definitely on the right track with looking for a heavier gauge and shortening the run. The other piece you can consider is different solar panels or different wiring arrangements that operate at a higher voltage - higher voltage means lower current which means less line loss. That said, I think I’m in the camp of “this is stupid” for a completely different reason - safety. People expect certain things to be used certain ways, and going outside those expectations is an opportunity for mistakes. You’re saying “these will never be connected to 120VAC”, but having plugs that LOOK like they should be is an invitation for that to happen eventually, potentially frying either your equipment or you. If you want to use extension cords from the hardware store as a convenient local source of wire I think that’s fine, but I would suggest cutting the plugs off entirely and attaching PowerPoles directly rather than having adapters, to make it clear that both ends must be used only for low-voltage DC purposes.
If you have multiple panels and hook in series you should get a higher voltage so loss should be less. You MPPT charge controller will like a little higher voltage anyway.
I have a jumper cable set I made many years ago that uses 4 gauge cable that I have used in the past to get power from my solar panels to my controller in an emergency when original cables were too short. This was constructed with a 175 amp power pole at one end going to heavy 4 gauge silicone covered welding cable that was designed like zip cord going to a pair of heavy battery spring clamps used on jumper cables. Having a spare battery terminal end power pole connector to a pair of ring terminals I was able to extend the line the additional 30 feet I needed. All parts were purchased through our supplier, CTW out of Indiana and came in cheaper than the jumper set sold by NAPA. Don’t know if that cable is still available but one might try searching for Vu-tron silicone welding cable. It’s a high count thin strand cable that is very flexible and delivers current and voltage with very little loss.
We were without power for three days, and many people are still without power. I used a mix of generator, solar and batteries while our power was out. It was funny when I couldn't hear my Yamaha 2k generator in the driveway, but I could hear the Generac generator across the fairway. 73 KD5YOU
Mike! Not dumb. Smart. You now know what the price is. Sometimes you can't have the biggest panel and sometimes you can't put it exactly where you want to. It's like antennas. The best is what you got. I know you know this; just runnin' my mouth or exercising my fingers. Great experiment! You reinforced what I'm always dealing with. Thanks for putting this out. See you out there. 73 de Bill
In a fix it will work.. Remember for Solar minimum 12 ga wire from panels to Controller // Battery bank ... If they are 12 gauge cords it would be great ... Good Idea... Thanks Love your channel as Im new to amateur radio
Just for testing to get it in the house I used my outdoor generator inlet, disconnected the other end from the transfer switch inside and ran it to the charge controller. Rigged up some mc4 connectors to a harbor freight RV cable and had very little loss, but that's all 10 gauge
Stay safe Mike! If you want to use an extension cord, cut the NEMA 5-15's off each end and crimp on PP's directly... If you make a NEMA to PP adapter, someone, someday, is gonna plug it in!⚡⚡as for the losses, you're going to need 10x the current with 12V over 120V for a given power transfer, and the losses are I^2, so you're fighting a 10x10=100 fold battle... Get the highest gauge ext cord you can! Jumper cables, maybe? Keep experimenting! (Safely!! 😊)
Great idea but one wrong move... Wouldn't let anyone touch it. I'd also use the ground conductor since it'll drop the resistance, thus drop the power loss and temperature. Also it's nice for you to be in the USA, since you guys have thicker extension cords due to lower voltage in the us versus eu
I did what @jamesemery1 commented on. I use two separate extension cords (EC). Each is 16AWG/3, one EC for positive EC one for negative. Combining the three wires in each cord creates an 11-ish gauge wire. I use MC4 connectors from the panels to the solar battery systems I built. I made a MC4 to Anderson power-pole cable. My solar input lines from the MPPT use MC4 connectors or APP connectors. The APP you need the 45A hardware, anything smaller and three 16AWG combined will not fit. It works. The limitations on length of runs applies as usual. The real benefit for using dedicated solar cables is durability, that's it. The cable can weather years of exposure and the elements. The life of extension cables is much shorter if exposed for a year or two in direct sunlight. The reason I went with extension cords: they are flexible!!! Solar cables are a pain in the but to work with. My panels are ground mounted and I move them every now and then. Not having to tack down cable that wants to corkscrew is a blessing! I weather proof them by using electrical tape then heat-shrink tubing over the MC4 connectors. Other than NOT leaving any length on the extension cords coiled (just as solar cables) since they generate an electrical field (inductor?) that causes additional resistance? My solar is only 1200w.
Using all 3 conductors is an excellent idea, but you are correct that moving the batteries and charge controller is a better idea in most cases. If you are inverter DC to AC and inverter is at the battery, its a no brainer to run AC to the house from the solar setup. The other big boost with matched solar panels for longer wire runs to the charge controller is put the PV panels in series to boost voltage and drop current. The I²R current losses are the devil in the mix. You can run afoul of NEC pretty quickly when putting PV panels in series. I believe the max open circuit voltage (Voc) allowed is 68VDC without a safety shut down mechanism at the individual panels. That means 3ea nominal 12VDC panels will likely put you over the legal safety limit.
I did this one time for Outdoor PA speaker extensions. Just use the male end to connect to your device needing power, otherwise someone could come by and "Oh, look it's unplugged. Well let me give a hand and ..... Poof!"
Southwire has a great voltage drop calculator on their website. As well as an app. It is surprising what wire gauge you need to carry current at low voltage. If the controller can handle it, putting similar panels in series to increase PV voltage will reduce % drop proportionately. The only thing I could find to make fun of are the commercials I got. thanks for the video.
I rigged up something similar years ago so I could set off replaced air bags taken out of Ford Taurus and Sable cars (big recall). I would wait until trash day so the dumpster behind the shop was empty, set the air bag trim side facing up and apply 12 volts to it through a 50 foot extension cord (boom!).
I use extension cords all the time for other uses, from solar panels to speaker wire, its usually the cheapest way to get wire unless your buying bulk. I dont use the 120v plugs, just so someone doesn't plug my solar panel or speakers or whatever I'm using them for into a wall outlet. Just know you gauge of wire and the voltage / amperage you need to send through it.. if you need heavier gauge wire, then just use all three conductors for positive and another cord with all three conductors for negative.
I would add a screw on clamp that makes you have to use a tool to remove the power pole adapter from the drop cord. That would keep mistakes of someone seeing the drop cord and plugging it in the wall. They make cord lockouts, or get a project box for the AC male end. Good idea though!
I would have put the negitive to the ground plug, I would think that might reduce the chance of the magic smoke comming out of things :) Just a thought. Good idea for an emergency - 1/2 the power is better than 0%. Maybe try converting the DC to AC, using the 100ft cord, and then converting the AC back to DC.
For your next experiment it would be interesting to step the Voltage up to 120 VAC and then back down to 12 VDC and measure the loss, using the same cables. Gregory/ The Pigeon Meister ... . 🐦⬛
I’ve been doing this for my temp solar setups for years. I really use a 12ga. extension cord, but in a pinch any old extension cord will do… I try to keep the length to 25 ft. 400 watts of solar is plenty enough to keep my Bioenno battery charged for Portable HF use.
Along the majic smoke line of preceding comments. Ive done similar ext-cord setups but made dam sure there were dismantled BEFORE leaving the area/yard/shop. And.... Use as short of a cord as possible.
@japanham5973 1 second ago Wrap the cord/power pole connections with self-fusing Silicone rubber electrical tape. It is a bit sticky, but will make anyone notice that the cord is not just a regular extension cord. They would have to take the tape off, unplug the Power Pole jumper to use it, and I think most would hesitate to do so without checking out the other end too...
Dude, love it! Your a genious! Never in a million years would i have thought of this. Tell Satan he needs to double check your numbers though 🤣🤣🤣. Awesome video!
did a setup like this using cigarette lighter adapters to top off my boat battery on the way to the lake. had no where near the losses you had. most extension cords are junk nowdays. thing is if you move the cells closer to the battteries then you'll meed longer cables to what you power so whats the difference? hint on stripping stranded wires- strip off what you need then take a second cut about 1/8 inche and pull it to the end of the wire but not off of it. it keeps the strands from seperating as you tighten it down
10 ga wire has 1.6 times the cross section of 14 ga wire, and 6 ga has 2.5 times the cross section of 14 ga, which should reduce the transmission resistance by those same ratios, for a given length and material of wire.
Seems like a great experiment to me. The way I look at it is the sunlight is free in either case. So your cost for the energy itself is $0.00. After that, the only extra cost is the additional time to charge the batts, call this Y. Then, if you factor in the discount from using extension cords you already have lying around, call this D, you're actually ahead as long as D - Y is still positive. $0.00 + $0.00 + $D - $Y = at least some positive $ amount... I think that's a great finding! 73, AI5QA
Of coarse you can use the cord. But the connectors that you plan to assemble could be used by someone other than you and smoke something. Hav3 a nice day.
Use 12/2 household solid core electrical wire, or 12/2 BX. Most likely a lot less resistance , and less line drop. Then make another video about it... see ? I just gave you a video idea. you're welcome. :)
Nicely done video. Good editing. I saw several times that you connect your solar panels to your charge controller before the controller is connected to your battery. Usually that is not recommended. Is your controller ok with that?
I use a 2 core extensions its 1.5mm wire 3m long with power poles on both ends the voltage regulator is on the back of the solar panel, it gives about 14v out to the battery. Im just wondering how much loss there is through the power poles . Its used in our motor home, we plan on going off grid for a week or 2 next week . A normal summer day here in the north of England is usually ok to keep the batteries top up but since September last year its been rain and over cast skys . At the moment its 12 c (53f) and the forecast isn't good. So I'll need every amp i can get
This will only work as long as you have a Solar Powered Proton Accelerator mid way through the run of wire, to boost you power back up until you get to the end!
Hey Mike. DE KB3MMM. Here’s something to try. How about using 2 extensions in parallel, tying all 3 connections together to red on one, and black on the other. Hmmm. Let’s be stupid together….lol. 73 Dave
Can you? Yes. Should you? No. Different connectors are dedicated for different functions. The NEMA 5-15 plug you are designated for 125V AC and 15A. It’s all about preventing someone from plugging a 12V device into a 125V socket and creating a safety hazard. For DC line losses at 12V, 10A, and a 14AWG cable, you will start to lose more than 10% of your power at 30ft. If you want to go 100ft and not loose more than 10% of the power, use 10AWG or larger.
Mike, Im not a smart guy on the subject, so i hope my dumb question doesn't make one of your other vids hihi.... But would the results change if the extension cord was not wound around the reel? would the coll be adding inductance? I live the comment you made... We are hams , we experiment to find out... good stuff Mike Thanks for all you do for the hobby. DE W4EMB
I got that hurricane in NY today that came threw Texas . We got grid down and 2 torandios hear. trees down all over. flooding but minor. on;y 3 in rain today. Try 2 extion cords . all 3 wires for each pos and neg. repeat test you did. At least you did not put 2 male plugs together and plug 120V inverter into your home . How very bad that is. never back feed power grid. you put transfer switch in breaker panel. And that can be inverter or generator . just do not use 12V power cable for 120V . insulation not rated for that. some is 300V/600V AC/DC cable. UL Welding cable is . 73
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy some wire and put power poles on it? [Edit: Ah, I see. You already had the extension cable] In general mixing low voltage and mains connectors is asking for the magic smoke to be released from something.
"Touch not the "Brass", lest it kick you as$$.. Green is Good, White is Right... Keep your low voltage on the neutral and ground.... unless you really want... 'a cool story' to tell...someday in the future...
From a safty standpoint, this is bad. it would be better to cut the cord connectors off and add the power poles. I do understand wanting to be able to use the extension cord for it's original use.
You just demonstrated why our power grid is AC instead of DC. (Also with stepped up voltage to reduce current requirements.) My opinion, put the batteries close to the panels / charge controller / inverter assembly, and run the extension cord to deliver the AC. Why induce inefficiency? (Also, electrical plugs are standardized for a reason. It may not be you that picks it up to use it. That's why we have Darwin awards.)
I am not making fun of you, but AC uses 14-16 gauge wire while solar uses 10 gauge and sometimes 8 gauge. You can potentially heat up your extension cable for having too much current through smaller gauge wires besides the obvious voltage drop.
I was almost out the door to Home Depot dammit! What if you put the batteries closer to the panel (as you said) but ran the longer (heavier gauge) cable to the load (either DC from the battery or AC through an inverter)? You could still have the appliances/radios in the house but you might not get as much loss that way.
I already run cables from the inverter all over the house for 120V. That's not the problem. I just don't want to move 150lbs of batteries every time I need to use solar.
To be short & quick - uh, NO! Most extension cords are poorly made today! And you need at least 12 or better 10 gauge wire in the cable... Those are expensive. You REALLY DO WANT HEAVY DUTY Wiring with Silicone insulation to handle the heat! Remember, if need a 10 Amp 120VAC load, that takes 100 Amps @ 12VDC input, minimum! Of course all of that is dependent too on run length to prevent excess voltage drop. The general rule is to keep the DC input cables as short as possible! Just stick to silicone insulated 6 ga. wire and short runs, you should be good. Btw, the silicone cable has much higher voltage isolation too, for serial panel runs.
We don't need an excuse to make fun of you, Mike. You could also set things up to b able to parallel two or more extensions. I know I've got at least two big extension cords around (electric mower, etc.). A buddy had to have a really honking extension to run his contractor sized air compressor from his generator. If the point is to use what you have in a pinch, then what you've shown is better than nothing. For more permanent and purposeful installations, there's always 10/2, or better, solid copper house wire should do better. But using what looks like a 110V AC connector, and having one clueless visitor is all it would take to ruin your whole day. "Hi" to Satan.
