First off I want to applaud you on not only admitting when you were incorrect but also apologizing to those you had a disagreement with. Admitting when you are incorrect is hard in everyday life and the spotlight of social media makes it harder. That was a stand up act and you have my utmost respect. Secondly I very much appreciate the investigation you launched and the reporting that you gave to us on your findings. Cheers 🍻
This is a classic example of hate. If you want a more accurate description of 13th Colony go check out @bourbonjunkies. The folks at 13th Colony clearly say that they source. People don’t hate on Michters for not saying where they source from.
I’m really impressed that you made this video. I have been subtly raising this concern since August. While traveling through Georgia this summer, I visited a lot of distilleries. I had a planned visit to 13th Colony. I had mentioned that I was visiting them to another distiller - someone not distilling a competing product - and he shook his head and just said “recitifiers, not worth your time.” We already had the visit scheduled, confirmed the visit, but when we arrived, they wouldn’t let us in. It was really suspicious and weird. So, they lost me. I do have their product including a DO that is unopened. I’m very tempted to send it to a lab and test it for additives. Not even sure if it’s possible, or if I want to spend the money on it. But I’m also looking for a little vindication.
@@terrencemcdermott5840 The lady who greeted us simply said we’re too early, and we’d have to come back later. Mind you, we called while we were en route to confirm our visit, and she confirmed that we were good to go. So, I started wondering what they were doing in there that they couldn’t let us in. Perhaps if we had stayed around they would have let us in, but we were on a schedule with other places to visit, so we just left. Americus was a little out of the way of our path, so that was frustrating too. It really struck us as odd compared to all the other distilleries we visited - they were all warm and welcoming.
Wow! I can tell you I have spoken with several industry personnel about sending some samples to a lab to analyze, and it is much more complicated than you would think. I thought you just put it in a machine and it spits out all the compounds in parts per million, but it turns out you have to tell the machine to look for the compound you are curious about, which makes lab testing hard when you don't know what you are looking for.
That’s interesting. I really haven’t looked that deep into it yet. I wonder how they do this in the Tequila world where additives are a big thing - and being certified as additive free is something that a lot people look for.
Greatly appreciate that we have someone out there doing the leg work and keeping us all informed and up to date on things like this so we know what's going on. Love the content, love that you have the community in mind and as always love the message and philosophy you bring.
The research put into the 13th Colony issue is almost as impressive as the amount of information I just learned about bourbon and whiskey distillation.
thank you for bringing this up and all the research. 13th Colony is about an hour from me. I want to support a local whiskey distiller. But if they aren't distilling their own product and aren't being forthright about it, I can't support them.
They say the barrels are aged in GA. Column still whiskey gets most of its flavor from maturation, so in a lot of ways it is still a local product, they just need to get compliant on their label.
I like how you are always transparent on your decisions and thoughts. It also takes a big person to come back on and admit when they are wrong. This is why I keep watching. Thank you for all your work
Great summary. Serious bummer that they won't be forthright with their distilling/sourcing. Obviously whiskey lovers are (in general) alright with sourced whiskeys (just look at Smoke Wagon's & Michter's popularity), but we certainly don't want to be lied to.
Transparency is essential for all products. I was interested to try their stuff but will hold off until they are more forthcoming. Appreciate your work and honesty here.
Thanks for putting in this effort! Agree that brands would be better off being totally transparent, especially when they’re so beloved by enthusiasts. Let’s hope they come out with some more info soon
Good on ya for doing the research and admitting where you were wrong. Total respect for you, sir! On the topic of the phrase “produced and bottled by,” I happened to visit Glenn’s Creek Distilling just a few weeks ago. David Meier, their head distiller, talked at some length on the topic. In the end, it was abundantly clear that the only phrase describing origin that matters is “distilled in” followed by the state, if different from the producer. If you’re ever near Frankfort KY, it’s worth an hour to sit down and hear David tell his story.
Greatly appreciate your due diligence with this important and touchy subject. With how much prices have gone up for obvious reasons, people need to know exactly what they are paying for in order to make an informed decision. Thanks again sir.
What a fantastic video. You’re totally right. Doesn’t matter where the whiskey is from. If it’s good, it’s good. We just want to know what we’re drinking.
We appreciate the transparency you bring to the whiskey community and helping inform those of us that may not pay close attention to things like this. Bravo
Fantastic job!!! I also agree with Cellar aged, so outside the box for MM it should be acknowledge as you have done. 13 colonies if there using Bardstown juice, cool ! Just say so.. we will still drink your delicious product 🙂
Interesting… I had a pretty bad experience trying to get a bottle of last years double oak release. I knew it would be difficult to get one but I also felt they were being intentionally obtuse about the process. I signed up for drop notifications on both their website and Seelbach’s hoping I could jump on it and maybe get it. One day they start reposting instagram stories of customers and influencers that had a bottle but no notification went out. They did not respond to questions about the lack of a notification or other questions about how to get a bottle. I happened to find a local liquor store that had one in stock but the guy wanted $800 for it. I’m not playing that game. Hearing they’re not being transparent about the content of the bourbon in the bottle is not surprising. Something is very off about the honesty and ethics at 13th colony.
I know from personal experience it can be hard to please everyone when you have a special release coming out, but I agree they have some transparency issues.
Their emails and Instagram posts from the distillery was to let you know their partners Bourbonoutfitter and Seelbachs would be the ones distributing it nationally. They later had an update the day their bottles were sent to those two distributors. I'm on the same list. From there you would have needed to sign up on BOs and Seels lists for the drop emails, not the distillery. Wasn't terribly difficult to get B2 or their 15th anniversary from bourbonoutfitter.
Honesty in marketing . . . seems hard to do for some people. Thanks for explaining what is going on with 13th Colony. Hopefully they'll be more forthcoming.
Love a company that is open and honest. I think it actually is more fun to see how different companies can take the same distillate and do something so different with it. Love the show!
Love the full transparency The only distillery, i am aware of, with some negative association is the minerality from Dickel. Just soap box thought and 13th colony wouldn't want to admit it.
13th colony would be better off to head off all this drama by just coming clean and being transparent as you mentioned. 100% agree. Just picked up their small batch and rye right before this all came out and have not opened them yet. Still interesting in trying them, never had any chances at either DO release. I also wonder if they are not doing the Bowman thing and they are distilling everything there because they re-destill it on that hybrid still one time in GA. That does not answer all the questions, but many of them IF and that is a big IF that is the case. You also have to wonder if they are not producing their bourbon and rye in that hybrid still, what are they making in it? I don't like that there is all this drama about it, but also feel as educated whiskey consumers we have the right to ask. They have the right to inform or not, and then we have the final vote with our $s.
Thanks for such a thorough analysis. You did a great job of pointing out the issues without demonizing the company. It left me hoping for greater transparency but also wanting to try their product. And thanks for the generosity. I have been trying to track down the MM cellar aged for months, to no avail. Hope I get to try it soon.
I love reading comments like this. That was my intent, but some people are so passionate about 13th Colony that are talking about me like I am the devil for even covered the subject.
Certainly appreciate you encouraging honesty, while being honest and going back to old conversations. Also, still supporting the small distillery, while encouraging them to be more honest with certain items... Penelope, Bardstown, and many others are fairly open and certainly do just fine.
Appreciate your following up on these questions and trying to hold company's to be honest with the public. Even if they still decide to not be straight forward. it's nice to know that there are others out there that will let us know about it.
Randy, it's amusing to see the vehement support for 13th colony from a lot of channels, even when these rumors/questions first arose. However, your video is a good reason why open and honest is the right way to approach releasing a product. Kudos for your stance, your video, your approach. There isn't a need to hide anything about the whiskey - it is absolutely amazing. The lack of transparency is what detracts from it, and that's unfortunate because I think it stands on it's own as a great product with a great flavor. I'm still wondering how it gets that dark...
If you read the email interchange you will see it is 10 years old aged in 2 new charred and toasted barrels. That accounts for the flavor and color IMO.
Before I really knew anything about 13th Colony I had heard and saw their double oaked product I had a felling something seemed off. Now after seeing all of this i can't help but think theres more to the story than just the label issue. Te other thing is they say its 10yrs old but the label says nothing so we dont actually know if its 10yr old product. Do we really trust what they say since they been so shady with everything else. My suspicion on there DO product only grows the more i learn about it and the more i see other whiskey youtubers response in defence of 13th colony and going against what they used to have issues with other distilleries doing. Seems like a pay to play with them
@@pauliej345 Don't doubt the other tubers who are supporting them. When you interact with them they endear themselves to you, and are very convincing. No one is on the take, just being convinced everything is normal.
@BourbonRealTalk yeah def don't think there on take in terms of paychecks but receiving of samples or working together to source whiskey for themselves, etc. The point is the other tubers seem to brush everything off very fast and don't want to address a potential issue with something they all said they had problems with other brands/bottles in past. I just don't believe the double oaked is 10yrs old becuase how can I. Means I have to take 13th colony word in it. If I can't take there word on anything else why this. Something overall just seems fishy
Thank you for sharing this info. I've wanted to try the 13th DO, but never had the chance too. I still want to, but I agree, I'd rather further support those brands that have complete transparency! Also, I didn't realize you started Prideful Goat! Grabbed a bottle last time I was in Houston and loved it!!
Thanks, Randy for doing the legwork and complete review of your correspondence on this topic. The subject started gaining momentum everywhere you look. I’m still a big fan of 13th Colony and hope they become more transparent in the future.
The research you put in is impressive and we all commend you for making this video take a big person to publicly express that you were wrong Cheers brother 🥃
Love seeing the Makers Cellar Aged now hitting the top 5. I didn't get lucky enough to own one, but have had quite a bit of it and its hands down one of my favorites.
This is such excellent work. Well well done. Great detail and story telling throughout. I wasn't really following the 13th Colony saga but i am absolutely here for how this unfolds. This cannot be the last we hear of this story
Excellent video - thank you for making this! We were unaware of the controversy entirely; this needed to be shared. And we couldn't agree more - the whiskey community is accepting of (and understands) different distillery / supplier practices. If the whiskey is great, the whiskey is great, and we will all clammer to buy it up regardless of whether or not it came from your own Still, and or a different type of Still, or whether it was contract distilled, etc... as long as there is Honesty & Transparency. The worst thing a distillery or supplier could do is imply something that isn't true. I think I speak for a lot of us when I say, we're far more willing to forgive/excuse a bad batch, or a bad single barrel release, then we are to forgive/excuse an intentional act of shrouding the truth. This community is educated. This community understands. We will endlessly support great whiskey that comes from transparent whiskey suppliers who understand this community. Last thing - we appreciate ya, brother. This community is one of the most loving and accepting bodies of people on the face of the planet. It never ceases too amaze us what a little bit of proofed-up brown water can do. #loveyameanit
@@TheWhiskeyChannel Tony Lucca was on the Mickey Mouse Club as a kid with members of N Sync, Justin Timberlake, Britney Spears, Ryan Gosling, etc. Later, he was on "The Voice" and was signed by Adam Levine. My wife Lindsey has followed his career since he was a kid, and has gotten very involved with the community of fans he has assembled. They do live zoom meetings, and Lindsey became known in his community for signing of Love you mean it, and it has become a thing for his community for the members to say that to each other. I thought maybe you were familiar and that is why you used it. It is a great message either way. Cheers!
Incredible video. Really appreciate you sharing the news and explaining it so well. I think it would be cool to make this into a series. Maybe a monthly bourbon news update. There are few people who understand the whiskey industry as well as Randy and it would be cool to hear his take on all things happening in the community.
This was excellent content and context on a topic I was blissfully unaware of. I appreciate transparency when it comes to labeling and am one of the first to say to folks that I have no problem with NDPs or sourced distillate, I just don’t want to be lied to or have information obfuscated. Keep up the great work!
For what it's worth, this is what was posted in a whiskey group I'm in from a local down there who knows the distillery team down there (take that with a grain of salt or not). I'll also preface that I'm a definitely a fan of transparency and there a tons of issues with transparency and "beating around the bush" throughout the spirits industry, but with the DO product more or less being the consensus "best bourbon" or amongst the best from multiple influential online whiskey personalities, they got a huge target on their back. Start Quote: "Just wanted to give a little info to everyone. I did a pick with the Mash & Journey boys at 13C on Thursday. Jason C. is gonna do a little on his stream. But just a few highlights I wanted to get out to everyone. The upcoming 15th anniversary bourbon release will reflect these. They are changing their labels to designate straight. Simply because of the demand. They 100% DO NOT have to. Also, they are using their own in-house distillate currently. They have been buying barrels for years, and they are just beginning to source. But at some point in the future you will see two labels. One saying Georgia distilled and one saying the contract source state. They do not intend address the comments from Kenny or from the other site. They feel they’d simply feed into the hate and that Kenny (Bourbon Pursuit) especially is using his platform to simply be a bully. And the other page is just doing it for clicks. They 100000% do not have not and never will use additives. The only additions they use are French oak staves in the rye and on the upcoming 15th Anniversary bottles, and maple spirals in SOME of the barrels that go into the DO. That it’s it. In 2018-2019 they sold a TOTAL of 10 barrels. In 2021, it was 7 barrels. They had been distilling for almost 10 years prior to that. Approximately 60-70 barrels a year. Every year. Jason C. will get into the rest, but this was some stuff I wanted to get out that both I was told directly and personally as well as what was told to our group. I’m saying all this not only because they’re friends, but because they’re just good people. The conversations I had with them about the additive stuff pissed me off to no levels. They were more upset that it was a direct attack on Graham more than it was an attack on the company. You could literally see anger in their eyes for having to take the high road. Per Max, they are 100% legal on all labels and wording. Could they have changed it? Yes. Do they have to? No. Were they a bit lazy in not doing it? "F ya we were”. Exact quote. But they honestly didn’t expect what has happened to happen. Hence the lackadaisical approach." End Quote Won't excuse laziness, but it seems like the folks visiting are able to get a better end of the story than dealing with whoever is in charge of the email communications. I know it's only a 6-person team down there and going from a relative nobody to one of the biggest names in whiskey is definitely gonna cause some hiccups. Anyways, just wanted to provide this info.
Ok. Definitely learned a lot I did not know following all this. It's so involved it sounds like you even picked up a new thing or two. Thanks for the video and leg work! I'd heard theories were floating related to 13th colony sourcing but now get the issues and facts in play.
Thank you for all the information, I’ve been in the dark about all of this and really thought it was just whiskey trolls at first. Thank you again for always keeping all of us informed with everything 🙏
First time watching your channel and this was incredibly informative. Like I actually learned some stuff. I had heard there was some shady things taking place and I actually passed on buying it last week and in the future I won’t purchase it either. Integrity is all you’ve got. Thank you for this awesome video.
Hey, thanks for being here! Whatever I learn in the industry, I do my best to educate the public and help whiskey lovers in their journey. I'm glad this was helpful to you!
Hey Randy, Great video! I'm with you on 13th Colony needing to be more transparent. We don't care if you source or contract distill. Just be more open about it. If the juice is good then its good. Although it is entirely possible that they are contract distilling in state as there are quite a few distilleries in Georgia. This wouldn't require them disclose any additional information other then produced and bottled by "insert address here". Although, I do hate the loose regulation around those terms. I do have a question regarding your statement about grains burning in a pot still. I would argue that isn't exactly the case. Scorched grains in any still would ruin the distillate and at that point... just toss it. I would say that the heavier oils present in a mash a more retained through pot distillation in it being a slower more delicate process versus that of a column still which is known to strip more of these flavor producing oils from the mash. I do know of a few distilleries using a column still for the stripping run and then using a pot still for the more refined spirit run. As far as the labeling goes, are you certain that you cannot use the term "Straight" on a spirit sourced from two different states? There is minimal language on the TTB regulation regarding multiple states of distillation in regards to using the term "Straight". The only requirements set forth for a spirit to bear the term "Straight" is that you meet the mash bill requirements for your class of spirit (i.e. Bourbon being at least 51% corn), the spirit may not be distilled over 160 degrees of proof and be stored at 125 degrees of proof or lower in Charred New Oak Barrels (except in Straight Corn Whisky where you can store is used or uncharred new oak barrels) for a minimum of 2 years, with no neutral spirits or additives. If the distillate is from two different states I think it would just have to say "Blended Straight Bourbon", but then that open them up to being able to use additives, which at that point they don't deserve all the hype they got anyway. Source: www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-5/subpart-I/section-5.143#p-5.143(c)(2) (straight designation comment)
1. There are two points regarding state of distillation. First, they used to disclose they distilled in Wyoming. Second, there are few if any distilleries in GA large enough to have produced the volume of liquid 13th Colony has that have been around long enough to be the source. They disclosed to me the DO B2 is 10 years. I do not think they were lying. If that is the case ASW is out because they started in 2016. Once you knock out the large producers due to age, it is most likely they are from another state, which would make since given their prior disclosures. 2. Don't get too caught up on the term "burning". Longer time with grain solids in a pot still allows the heat to create flavors that a column still can not. Oils are a HUGE factor in pot stills too, but not the source of the coffee and dark chocolate flavor that are so prevalent on pot still whiskey where the grain was flour. 3. You are correct. Two states can not be "Straight Bourbon". Two states could be "Blend Of Straight Bourbon", but to avoid the appearance of adulteration they would have to disclose, and this distillery will do a lot, but they won't disclose.
New subscriber and as the second video I have seen from your channel and I will be watching many more because of your upfront and straight forward way of doing things.
Appreciate the dedication to truthfully understanding what’s being produced. I think you made the right move, there are enough asterisk in records keeping these days, certainly don’t need another.
Great work Randy. I hope this is seen by all future new whiskey producers, us whiskey enthusiasts love transparency almost as much as our favorite drink.
I value transparency over flavor. There are plenty of good whiskeys to drink without feeling like you have to support a brand that is manipulating you.
Eye opening video! Was actually going to go seek out the double oak soon. I like drinking bourbon from distillers that are honest and have full disclosure. Thanks for letting me know.
Very interesting information! I hope 13th colony responds to the video with additional information so the double oak can be re-added to your list! Thanks for the video!
At this point I think they would have to disclose that their label was not TTB compliant to answer my questions, and it appears they are unwilling to do that.
Thank you for stading up for the community and owning up to knowing what's right much appreciate that. I have so much more respect for you than I did before. Can't wait for your next video
Well done Randy. I thought it was shady they didn’t have a state of distillation on the bottle. I think they are so Ga head strong they don’t want to admit the whiskey is coming from another state
Great video but one small critique- I don’t think it’s fair to assume that any distiller using a pot still is more likely to scorch the mash. The flavor difference from a pot still generally comes from the heavier compounds in the mash that can carry over more easily in a pot still than a column still. But any scorched flavor would imply that the master distiller doesn’t know what they’re doing.
Someone else said something similar. Scorched or burnt may not be the right term. Maybe caramelization. Regardless, there is a flavor that is not just from heavier compounds and oils that is created by the grain solids being exposed to direct heat.
Very interesting on how there would be actual flavor differences between the two main distillation types. I studied separations and that was something I always wondered about. Very interesting and probing questions, you’re quite informed about these questions considering your role in the prideful goat. Thanks for all the “take backs too” I’m sure not the easiest thing to do, but very honorable. We all love the transparency. Good juice is good juice, and transparency makes it better.
Thank you for being willing to stand up and say something without burying them. Their whiskey is great but they’ve danced around the issues at hand and that’s simply not okay.
Hat Tip. This is Texas, men have conversations. No need to apologize, but good god man you do so in Grand Fashion. The sincerity noted, Thank you. Just a consumer Brian/WY?
@@BourbonRealTalk I love Bourbon, its our American Heritage. So upset with some of the whiskey tubers I decided to start responding with vids to push back against the BS I see. Will post them under Whiskey Yuck? I'm just a consumer and the bastardization of "Bourbon" makes me sad. Is it possible to see labels listed with TTB?
It's content like this that makes this channel amazing for whiskey nerds. All we want is for distilleries to straight forward with the juice that they are trying to sell to us.
Great work Randy. A company like that needs to be clear and concise with information. We have had our doubts in our community here and my friend Jordan called it about 6 months ago. I sent him your video! You have definatley helped his suspicions too.
Great research went into this, nice job! Truthfully, the confirmation of the lack of additives was enough for me. If they are sourcing, that would be nice to know but doesn’t change the fact that they bottled an incredible product. Sourcing is so common, it doesn’t really bother me. Transparency would be nice, but is a luxury in todays market. I respect your choice to take it off your list based on your findings, kudos to you!
The sad thing is we are 100% accepting of sourced bourbon. No one knows for sure who distilled the Michter's, but they were honest on their label and stated plainly that they are only the bottler, and we are OK with that. Just be honest. That is all the whiskey enthusiast expects.
I too have really enjoyed the 13th Colony. This was the 1st I have heard of the controversial practices. Great job laying out the facts as you know them and being completely transparent. I also enjoy the Prideful Goat!
This is why I’m very apprehensive when it comes to newer companies in general, not just new spirit distillers. They come into these industries looking to capitalize on growing popularity, then wanna act surprised when that popularity comes to their backyard. Forcing them to start scrambling to produce at speeds/volume they can’t keep up with. Shady business
Unfortunately their claim that recent demand forced this is a lie. They have only had high demand for 2 years. This whiskey was distilled 10 years ago.
Appreciate you digging into this. As a fan of their products, I would love to see them put forth some clarity and honesty so that we can enjoy their offerings for what they truly are.
Appreciate your content! Impressed by how much you know about the distillation process, and have enjoyed learning more. Hope to enjoy and experience this past years best bourbons.
Great job on being transparent with your experience and opinions on this topic. Now dive into the ECBP C923 or your best of 2023 is still under contest🤣
Are you talking about A22 vs A23? I didn't even know about it until people started asking in the comments. We looked and were were drinking A23 which was the one everyone said was better.
Excellent update and thorough review of why you are removing them, and updating the community on the controversy. Truth in labeling and transparency is what we are asking for.
What an interesting controversy this has been. I appreciate your due diligence here, and the education! 13th isn't available in my area (KCMO), but I can't wait to try their products. Cheers!🥃✌️
Ok, that seemed like a ton of questions and if I were the one assigned to answer them, I would have been annoyed. With that said, they were good questions. It would be awesome if they came on and addressed them live. Of course, give them the questions that you would ask ahead of time. Keep up the great content!
It was a lot of questions. You can read the entire interchange by clicking the link in the video description. After the incomplete response I felt I needed to ask every possible question to make sure I was getting the whole truth. I didn't want to get into a 10 email interchange.
Great video! You are correct though, we just want the truth, not the run around! We enjoy what's in the bottles, just share what you know we want and what you know you are able to. Thanks for pressing for answers. Cheers, Randy!
Really looking forward to seeing how this shakes out. You must be suspicious of those who do not share much information on the label, and especially those who are not forthright when asked about it. Really hope I get that sample pack! I will share it with my friends.
