Fun Fact: in the original Victorian Sherlock Holmes stories Holmes meets Dr. Watson on his return from Afghanistan. In the latest modern day Sherlock Holmes TV shows Sherlock meets Dr. Watson on his return from Afghanistan.
Sadly I suspect it won't be the last time a new modern SH reboot has Dr Watson returning from a war in Afganistan. Generation after generation refuse to learn from history.
@@MikeSmith-nx4ct Most people would know that, of course, the books and TV show are fiction...I thought that would go without saying. What is a fact is that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote that Dr Watson had just returned from Afghanistan as the war was contemporary to the stories - and in the current TV show they have Dr Watson just returning from Afghanistan as it is, once again contemporary.
I always imagined that when the Brits decided to go to war in Afghanistan alongside the US, there was one absolutely ancient old backbench MP who just asked "pardon me... but are we doing this AGAIN? As in a fourth time?"
This actually happened, many questioned the logic behind it in the Commons the Lords and the general public, we knew it wouldn't end well. US intelligence wanted to go over all the information the British had about our previous wars and conflict in Afghanistan, but were satisfied "modern strategies" would be able to break a tribal society....
Forgive me for my lack of historical knowledge. I am aware of only three - the one mentioned here, the Soviet attempt starting in 1979, and the one which just ended. Could you elaborate on what you said was the FOURTH attempt?
@@gregparrott the Brits went to war with Afghanistan three previous times. The first Anglo-Afghan war was 1839-42, the second was 1878-80, and the third was in 1919.
I think the best thing I heared about Afghanistan is: There are families, that sitting at the same spot since nearly 200 years and shot with the same rifle at anyone with an uniform. Only thing changing is the color.
@@Historyfreak-f7o Bingo! Look at how the MIC forced Biden to backhole our centuries old ally, France. It's all about the Benjamins. The MIC owns us and our treasury.
Unbelievably timely reminder of the two maxims: "Those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it" and "Never get involved in a land war in Asia"! Thanks for reminding us so brilliantly about history we need to remember... so we ( hopefully ) won't repeat it.
That's exactly how I felt that day! I KNEW Bush and his cronies would use 9-11 as an opportunity to make a mark in the history books as well as make themselves rich(er)! Now, after 20 years it's someone else's turn! Remember there's all those Opium plants still over there that deserve to be "liberated"!
As a disabled US Army Veteran, the US has "cowboyed up" around the world for the last 100+ years. We here in the US have this arrogance in thinking that our way is the best way.. The reality is there are places in the world that do not want the same type of lifestyle we have here in the "Western" part of the world... Afghanistan is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Remember to thank a veteran the next time you see one..they and their families will carry this weight of that decision as the days go on. Just being honest..🤔
@@wolfsmith2865 would be nice if our political "leaders" and our military generals would have to divest their stock ownership from our war machine. hahah what a world that would be
Battle of Waterloo was on 15th June 1815; Elphinstone was Lieutenant Colonel of the 33rd Regt. of Foot being awarded a CBE for his actions. The 33rd (1st West Riding of Yorkshire) Regt. of Foot was the 'old' command of Sir Arthur Wellesley while in India. The regiment, like Elphinstone, served throughout the Peninsular War.
Arrest, Interrogate, and Indict For 9/!! War Crimes & Crimes Against Humanity: Susan Rice Larry Silverstein Frank Lowy Ronald Lauder Lewis M Eisenberg Jules Kroll Jeremy Kroll Jerome Hauer Kobi Alexander Sivan Kurzberg Paul Ellner Omer-Marmari Michael Goff James Schlesinger Dov Zakheim Judge Michael B Mukasey Judge Alvin Hellerstein Kenneth Feinberg Ben Chertoff Michael ChertoFf Paul Kurzberg Yaron Schmuel Oded Ellner Sheila Birnbaum Stehen Cauffman Philip Zelikow Henry Kissinger George W. Bush Dick Cheney Donald Rumsfeld Condoleezza Rice Paul Wolfowitz L. Paul Bremer Richard Perle Elliot Abrams Nicole Wallace Douglas Feith Ari Fleischer General Richard Myers General Ralph Eberhart OTS Agent Bennette Marc Grossman David Frum Jack Abromoff Shyan Sunder Collin Powell Tony Blair Barrack Obama Hillary Clinton Joe Biden Donald Trump And ... Benjamin Netanyahu!
In high school in the ‘70s, I read “Flashman,” which described the 1842 Afghan expedition and it’s fate. When the US invaded 20 years ago, I dreaded what might become of our troops. I was told I didn’t know what I was talking about when I warned people that we needed to stay out of Afghanistan. I regret to say I was right. Had we not had the airport, it could have been truly disastrous. Will China will be the next victims to not remember history? It’s their turn. Thank you for this timely, interesting history.
Only way China cares to get involved militarily is if attacks are launched against them from bases in Afghanistan. Other than that, China doesn't judge. Taliban can do WHATEVER it wants inside Afghanistan. Remember all the people criticizing the US for getting into bed with less-than-desirable partners during the cold war? Look at who the USSR (and now China) are friends with. The major difference is that citizens are allowed to criticize the US. That doesn't happen un USSR/Russia or in China. That says something.
I was wondering when someone was going to mention George MacDonald Fraser's "Flashman." :) I read the whole series and highly recommend it. I had the same concerns throughout our stay in Afghanistan. I knew we'd never "modernize" the Afghans, but I was hoping we'd at least avoid a tragic "Retreat From Kabul 2.0."
I would highly recommend the novel of M.M. Kaye "Far Pavillons". Even though it is essentially a fiction novel, the realities of the time are portrayed with admirable fidelity and both the history of the British army massacre in 1842 and the British residence massacre in Kabul in 1879 are reported there in detail. In my opinion had Breshnev and Bush read this novel, they would never ever invade Afghanistan.
If only they might have. Brezhnev was in a vegetative state by the time of the Afghan invasion and Bush was enamored with Tom Brokaw's novel, The Greatest Generation, which convinced him Afghanistan should become a prosperous liberal democracy after the war, like Germany or Japan. Thus neither was open to persuasion.
I remember reading "Travels into Bokhara" by Sir Alexander Burnes. This was in the '80s, when the Soviets were in Afghanistan. Burnes was assassinated in 1841 in Kabul with his younger brother, Charles. Afghanistan, where Empires go to die... Alexander the Great failed and his empire soon collapsed, the British failed and decades later their empire collapsed, Soviets failed and the USSR collapsed, US failed and here we are now. Next?
Alexander's Empire did not fail in Bactria (aka Afghanistan)...it was actually the last Greco kingdom funny thing. That's why everyone after them had a hard time...you have descendants of the silver shields and Alexander's Army defending their land
"Ghost Wars" by Steve Collins is an excellent history of our proxy war against the Soviets, and the Afghan Civil War that followed after the Soviets were defeated.
@@Nperez1986 this is something that should be taught more widely... what the Pashtun gene stock actually is, at least some of it. I only learnt about it very recently myself.
I enjoyed this video completely. Very timely considering the American recent retreat from Afghanistan. I knew of the British involvement there but you have totally schooled me on the subject. If we fail to learn the lessons of history we are destined to repeat them. And we did as did the Soviets.
THAT....IS another thing that is SO Frustrating and Enraging!!! Churchill was there as a reporter and did great Reportage and Analysis of the Culture,which IS still pretty much the SAME in the rural areasTODAY. AND...The Marines apparently FORGOT the lessons of the Beirut Barracks Bombing!!! ASTOUNDING !!!
Ghengis Kahn, Xerxes of Persia, Alexander the Great, Imperial Russia and the British Empire at it’s peak all failed to subdue the people of Afghanistan. Then Soviet Russia and now the United States. Perhaps we should leave them alone.
@@brookeshenfield7156 Bruh, the US, USSR and GB all successfully conquered and held an isolated and mountainous region sometimes thousands of miles across the globe for decades.
@@brookeshenfield7156 They controlled an area halfway across the globe with relatively minimal military assets for several decades, how is that not a success
We’re just the latest in a long line of governments that decided to declare themselves the winners and go home (to coin a Bill Mauldin phrase). Central Asia / Afghanistan= the graveyard of Empires! No reason we shouldn't have seen this coming, or learn from the Soviets before us. And the British Empire before them. Or the Sikhs before that, Timur Persians before that, Mughals of India, Genghis Khan, the Arab caliphate Umar, Alexander the Greek, the Indian Maurya... 🤔 🤷♂️
There's no mystery as to why it's a country impossible to maintain control over, there is no country. Any conqueror has to first unite hundreds of tribes, separated by vast swaths of desert and mountains and beliefs. Afghanistan isn't the home of the finest fighters the world has ever seen, it simply doesn't exist but on paper.
I wouldn’t say caliphate Umar was unsuccessful though Since they DID NOT fight a long campaign in Afghanistan (they went there only after the Sassanids were defeated) Also the very obvious signs of that the Muslims won can be seen today in Practically 98 percent of Afghanistan is Muslim
Such change, which is largely a function of culture, generally happens from within. No modern day polity is the result of someone outside forcing them to embrace Democracy. Rather treaties, with the right local men placed to govern might just have a desirable outcome, as was the case with Japan.
Have to admit when the Taliban promised "safe withdrawl from Kabul" this was what was going through my mind. There were plenty of stories from the time that suggested that it was a deliberate plan by Akbar Khan and afterall if he had been negotiating in good faith then why did he take the officers captive. During the ambushes he was reporteed to have shouted "spare them" in Persian and "kill them" in Pashtun.
There were bodies on the streets before we finished pulling out. Anyone who thought the Taliban weren’t going to take out their perceived enemies is an idiot
@@jeffreyadams648 I detect sarcasm. If I'm wrong I'm sorry. If I'm correct, 21 likes would seem to imply that everyone is not as erudite as you. Peace and Love tk
What a wonderful storyteller you are. Your knowledge of the subject matter, coupled with your tone and inflection of voice make listening to these vignettes an absolute treat.
My daughter worked in Afghanistan for nearly 10 years, by shear luck she headed to the states for some dental work the Sunday before the collapse. Anyway, regarding bribes, she said that they should be paid at the lowest level, in cash and on time, failure to do so will increase the amount and move payments to the next highest authority. Never get to the highest level. If one gets to the highest level, they like the mob, will own you.
Alexander’s mother Olympias wrote him a letter once, getting on his case for taking so long to knock off these primitive, poverty-stricken Afghans. So Alexander captured three tribal chiefs and sent them back to Macedonia, each one carrying an offering of soil from his own tribal homeland; they were supposed to deliver these tokens to Olympias as a gift from her son. But waiting outside the queen’s palace door, the three chiefs got into a fight and killed one another. Alexander’s Mom wrote back: ‘Now I understand, my son.’ from Paul Gross’ 2016 film ‘Hyena Road’
@@WildBillCox13 I can’t take credit, I filched that from Paul Gross’ 2016 film ‘Hyena Road’. I recommend that picture if you haven’t seen it, and even more so ‘Passchendaele’.
@@zachmiller9175 Im not so sure. I think Lance (my new favourite history teacher) brings us a ton of great and singular stories which, due to the passage of time do get forgotten. Some though, like Afghanistan invasions, are truly instances of history that is bound to result in similar outcomes.
@@aprylrittenhouse4562 As a disabled US Army Veteran, the US has "cowboyed up" around the world for the last 100+ years. We here in the US have this arrogance in thinking that our way is the best way.. The reality is there are places in the world that do not want the same type of lifestyle we have here in the "Western" part of the world... Afghanistan is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Remember to thank a veteran the next time you see one..they and their families will carry this weight of that decision as the days go on. Just being honest..🤔
@@aprylrittenhouse4562 I agree but do you know how many people in Afghanistan support the Taliban? A lot! We here in America asked for it trying to nation-build with Neoliberals pushing PC and Woke thinking on the majority of the nation. If we just stuck to destroying international terrorism that was using Afghanistan as a training base we would have just done fine. All that effort and treasure spent for 20 short years of artificial peace. Well back to the drawing board.🤔
Here is another example of the adage: those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it ... or some such saying. I am always interested in the hubris of empires, convinced they can march into somebody else's territory and take over. Well done, as always. Thank you Team THG.
History deserves to... no, MUST BE Remembered, especially by leaders who want to "intervene" in places they don't really belong. Otherwise all we do is repeat history again and again...
Unfortunately those "leaders" are puppets to their master string-pullers who stay out of sight, making all the money, and letting everyone else get the shaft.
@@thetruth-hl7ct Try telling that to the innocent men, women and children killed and wounded in ANY such invasion. They don't KNOW the reasons WHY...all they do is DIE.
I wonder if you're not blaming the wrong people. I heard that a large part of the money and arms that we gave for the arming and rebuilding of Afghanistan went no where good. And further, a lot of our contractors who were responsible for carrying on this work didn't care about anything as long as the money flowed,
Actually, the mentality has changed. Did you not see thousands of people trying to get out of there? It only takes one cook to spoil the stew, so to speak. Similar challenges exist, for instance, in Cuba. Lots of Cubans want a free Cuba, but the Communist dictatorship refuses to let go. At this point, it just looks like stubbornness gets in the way, b/c things haven't gotten better in Cuba for decades. Power, no matter how poor, just doesn't let go.
I guess those afghan soldiers either wanted to live under taliban rule or were just scared and threw down their arms.At this point I hope US changes it outlook on that
We seem incapable of "nation building". Not surprising, since we seem to be doing a lousy job of it at home. But it appears that we may have culturally Westernized much of the urban population. Kabul has well over 4 million inhabitants. It would be pretty hard to turn the calendar back on that completely. It should be interesting.
Okay, you have me wanting to curse and weep. In 2013, my 30-year-old first-born son was deployed to Shindand Air Base, Herat Province as part of Task Force Granite, 1/214 FA (Georgia Army National Guard). They were under near constant attack from the beginning, but they held on. My son was medevac'd out in June of that year, after a 155 mm artillery round blasted him into the bunker he was shepherding civilians into. They medically retired him, finally, after extensive, exhaustive, and mostly ineffective treatment, in 2015. Meanwhile, the units that replaced the 1/214 held on; and the units that replaced them held on, and so on. Until last month. I don't know exactly when the base fell, but Herat Province was officially in Taliban hands by August 12. So, yeah. I'm right there with you guys who have said this was had to watch.
@@jamesfracasse8178 Thanks for asking. Much of the physical damage done to his knee has been repaired. The TBI still impacts him. He is an asset to those who know and love him.
America: “I had the worst retreat from Afghanistan!” Soviet Union: “No, I did!” (?): Amateurs. America: “What did you say, punk?!” Britain: “Amateurs!”
@@trescatorce9497 And some came home is pieces and some came home in body bags. There is little to no consolation in saying some came home in one piece. In fact saying that is a cruel barb to those wounded and to their families, and to the families of those who died. I suggest you think carefully of how your words may sound and be taken by those hurt by the Soviet and the American folly of fighting in Afghanistan before you commit them to public viewing.
@@notapplicable531 I meant to say that they were not hurt, physically of course. The minds of ALL of them will be forever affected. As for my so called lack of tact and/or poor choice of words, tell that to the politicians of any country guilty of sending young people into a meat grinder. Their words are much more damaging
@@notapplicable531 There was nothing disrespectful or cruel in Luis Messina's comments. If his words offended any Soviets or Americans it is because their experience was distorted by actually being there. Their service is respected and appreciated and Messina did nothing to dishonor that service. Afghanistan has proven to be a quagmire for all who venture into it. Messina was simply conveying the degrees to which it has been a quagmire to all.
"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier." ---Rudyard Kipling
@@blank557 This was routine. From 'Charlie Wilson's War' Their idea was to encourage Soviet officers and soldiers to defect to the mujahideen. As [CIA chief Gust] Avrakotos derisively describes it, “The muj were supposed to set up loudspeakers in the mountains announcing such things as ‘Lay down your arms, there is a passage to the West and to freedom.'” Once news of the program made its way through the Red Army, it was argued, there would be a flood of defectors. ….Avrakotos thought [Oliver] North and Perle were “cuckoos of the Far Right”….”What Russian in his right mind would defect to those fuckers all armed to the teeth?” Avrakotos said in frustration. “To begin with, anyone defecting to the Dushman would have to be a crook, a thief, or someone who wanted to get cornholed every day, because nine out of ten prisoners were dead within twenty-four hours and they were always turned into concubines by the mujahideen. I felt so sorry for them I wanted to have them all shot.” The meeting went very badly indeed. Gust accused North and Perle of being idiots….Avrakotos thought that would be the end of the…idea, but he greatly underestimated the political power and determination of this group, who went directly to Bill Casey. ….In spite of the angry complaints, Clair George and everyone else on the seventh floor agreed with Avrakotos’ position. He says that Director Casey even privately told him, “I think your point is quite valid. What asshole would want to defect to these animals?” But the issue wouldn’t go away. Perle, [Walt] Raymond, and the others continued to insist that the Agency find and send back to the United States the many Russian defectors they seemed to believe…the mujahideen were harboring. They had visions of a great publicity campaign once these men reached America. ….Avrakotos describes what happened next with the kind of pleasure he feels only upon achieving revenge. It had been almost impossible to locate two prisoners, much less two defectors. The CIA found itself in the preposterous position of having to pony up $50,000 to bribe the Afghans to deliver two live ones. “These two guys were basket cases,” says Avrakotos. “One had been fucked so many times he didn’t know what was going on. The other was an alcoholic.”
It reminds me of where we live in Northern Arizona. This makes sense they would look similar since our town is essentially on the same lat as Kabul. Our mountains aren't as high but we don't have the benefit of the Indian sub-continent trying to move in. Stay safe...
@@densealloy There's actually a band whose name name I forget that has a song called "Plate Tectonics" with a chorus that goes "there's no way to stop it / plate tectonics...."
gorgeous? Not from what i've seen from the refueling anchors above. The taliban have destroyed the country before we even got there. The mountains are no different than other mountains. They will once again export their jihad at the expense of their own people and continue the feudal system for decades more. Women will be oppressed, other Muslims will be killed because they are the wrong sect, etc etc
Thank you for, as always, an engaging look into a bit of history with which I was unfamiliar, or at best, vaguely aware of... now with added adorable cat!
I believe it was Michener in his book “Caravans,” who said that life in Afghanistan was so harsh that if an Afghan child survived to age seven nothing would stop him but a bullet.
These events were fictionalized in the novel FLASHMAN by George MacDonald Fraser where the sole survivor was Harry Flashman who returned to England as a hero even though he had survived through cowardice, which was his most common trait in the Flashman novels, which were essentially historical satires.
Arrest, Interrogate, and Indict For 9/!! War Crimes & Crimes Against Humanity: Susan Rice Larry Silverstein Frank Lowy Ronald Lauder Lewis M Eisenberg Jules Kroll Jeremy Kroll Jerome Hauer Kobi Alexander Sivan Kurzberg Paul Ellner Omer-Marmari Michael Goff James Schlesinger Dov Zakheim Judge Michael B Mukasey Judge Alvin Hellerstein Kenneth Feinberg Ben Chertoff Michael ChertoFf Paul Kurzberg Yaron Schmuel Oded Ellner Sheila Birnbaum Stehen Cauffman Philip Zelikow Henry Kissinger George W. Bush Dick Cheney Donald Rumsfeld Condoleezza Rice Paul Wolfowitz L. Paul Bremer Richard Perle Elliot Abrams Nicole Wallace Douglas Feith Ari Fleischer General Richard Myers General Ralph Eberhart OTS Agent Bennette Marc Grossman David Frum Jack Abromoff Shyan Sunder Collin Powell Tony Blair Barrack Obama Hillary Clinton Joe Biden Donald Trump And ... Benjamin Netanyahu!
in 1998 I was involved with the construction of a powerplant project in Kabirwala Pakistan about 60km from a town named Multan. The manager of the firm providing our security was an amateur historian and part time archeologist. He told us the story about how Alexander the Great and his army were turned back at Multan. Apparently Alexander was on route to Afghanistan. The security chief took us on a field trip to a ruin of rock wall that was apparently a section of the original battlement wall of the Multan city. So, foreigners have been unsuccessful invading that part of the world since at least the time of Alexander the Great.
So that's a little chilling - the odd parallel to recent history (by which I mean recent decades, rather than weeks or months). It's amongst the reasons I feel uncomfortable with moves to pull down statues of unpopular figures from history in the attempt to air-brush out a dubious past - If we forget previous mistakes, are we not doomed to repeat them?
Gary Kubodera I know what you mean, and I'm not completely sure I disagree either, which is why I only said I was uncomfortable - I don't know what the right answer is. I do know when I see statues, I don't automatically hold them in the reverence those that erected the statues did, I'm prompted to find out more, but that's just me personally and such statues are in public spaces so maybe they do have to go.... I just don't feel we should pretend they didn't exist for the reason I mentioned.
Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. And yet we are so arrogant that we learn nothing, thinking ourselves superior to everyone who came before us.
I'm glad someone mentioned that - Flashman escaped as well, so there were 2 survivors. George McDonald Fraser (RIP) is a brilliant storyteller, and his novels about Flashman are historically correct, with Flashman inserted, and used to explain hitherto unexplained circu,stances! They are also very entertaining! Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe novels are similarly correct.
I remember the National Geographic issue about Afghanistan in the 70s (the one with the famous pic of the blue-eyed Afghan girl). It talked about how the country had never been successfully invaded despite many hundreds of years of attempts. If I remember correctly the international attitude back then was to be quite happy that they got the tribes to allow people to pass by on the paved highway...
I kinda miss Afghanistan. I haven't heard an IED level explosion since 2012. Also miss the kids throwing rocks at your guard tower post. Or watching the old guy across the street, through your nvg's, at night, walking outside, lifting his man dress, and drop a decent in the dirt. Ahhhh yes, good times!
@@nickverbree A friend on mines was in Vietnam. While on guard duty he wasn't supposed to fire first at anyone trying to sneak in. He would use his night vision equipment, not as nice as the modern stuff, but he would shoot the sappers trying to sneak in. The VC would retrieve the bodies and he would write in his report that "Warning shots were fired". My friend took no chances as those VC sappers could crawl through the concertina wire barriers.
@@Rhaspun yeah, ROEs could be a big hindrance. We had many an in theatre debate about whether or not a motorcycle was a big enough threat to fire a warning shot at.
Those who forget History are bound to repeat it. No truer example of that than Afghanistan. SSG. U.S. Army (Medically Retired) Infantry / Sniper / SOF Intel (SOT-A), multiple tours including Afghanistan.
I live in Sale, a town in Australia named after Robert Sale and/or Florentia Sale. They had ships named after them. Their letters and her journal was widely published in papers. They were incredibly famous at the time. Her journal is free online. It is the reason the British public found out about the disaster. She was wounded in the wrist (Her word) and her son in law killed, making her youngest daughter a widow days after her 19th birthday. Both were held captive for 9 months until rescued by Robert. He received a knighthood in the highest order of the bath, unparalled at his military rank. The scale of this defeat was not passed until the fall of Singapore in WW2.
In 1898, a young second lieutenant named Winston Churchill wrote a book about his experiences in the Malakand Field Force in Northwest Pakistan. In 1897, Britain commenced a military campaign in Northwest Pakistan, formerly part of British India, to pacify Pashtun tribes and establish British rule of the area. That area is adjacent to modern-day Peshawar and into the Swat Valley. It is his first nonfiction book. It describes the people of the area 100 years ago. They are still the same. The Pakistan/Afghanistan border is a western invention that means nothing to the people of that region. Great read. Instructive.
@@user-qf6yt3id3w Afghans love their God more than we love our God that is the problem. All great civilizations lose their civilization when they lose their God. That is why you're seeing the decivilization of America Faith is everything.
The poor peoples of the Central Asia. They've been over-run and invaded since the beginning. The Persians, Greeks, Mongols, Indians, Britain, The Soviets, and finally the Americans have all had a go at occupation. Who's next? Maybe, stay out of Afghanistan. Graveyard of Empire.
