You forgot to mention Ben Forston, who was Georgia's Secretary of State at the time. He actually hid the great seal of Georgia under the cushion of his wheelchair until the matter was resolved.
Your explanation of this event in Georgia history was much more clear and concise than the rather convoluted one I sat through in eighth grade. Thank you for explaining this concept to a Georgian whose mom was a toddler when these events occurred and who never could explain it either except as a power grab attempt---and we had two different Georgia history teachers trying to explain it!
I've lived in Georgia all of my 62 years and while this happened long before I was born and while it was omitted from my mandatory middle school Georgia history class it was certainly talked about by my elders, often flavored and embellished by the personal opinions and prejudices of the tellers. This as usual for THG is a factual and well researched deep dive into a bit of history. BTW, I got to meet Herman Talmage near the end of his life.
Of course Herman Talmage is not the hero of this story. I always wonder why people from the south are often both aware of their history of Racism AND proud of the same history. With no offense intended, surely you can see the contradiction.
@Ray Lucas I failed to make it clear that meeting Herman wasn't a proud moment of mine. I spent my childhood in the segregated south only going to a desegregated school in fifth grade. I am very proud of parts of my history and culture but not racism, Jim Crow or slavery. Perhaps you should try meeting more people from the south before making such blanket assumptions.
@@warmsteamingpile okaaay; as school aged child I almost met the Zodiac Killer, but he didn't shoot me. Doesn't that sound ridiculous? Someitimes just "cuz you met someone, that doesnt need to be highlighted. .
@@warmsteamingpile the Talmage mindset lives on in people like Margarine Taylor Greene and Brian Kemp. Georgia has changed little. That wasn't mentioned in this video either.
@@goodun2974 I used to think it was Voltaire as well, but I’ve learned that it is misattributed. IIRC Mrs. Hall was sort of a member of the Voltaire fan club or something like. I’d have to research it again to say with certainty.
I say that so much and i get the same lost looks.... So to save to much to read and to just say my point to the beautiful quote... I don't care who or what you believe in as long as it makes YOU a better person!
It's a shame that todays Klu Klux Democractic Klan has changed that to be "I disagree with what you say and will throw you in jail until you say what I tell you to say."
Thank you for the clear and concise presentation from a Georgian. Two illustrations of the popularity of the Talmadges, I have an uncle named Herman Eugene and Savannah has a beautiful bridge called the Talmadge bridge. Even after it was rebuilt in the 90s and with much discussion over the infamous name the name Talmadge remained.
"The year of three Governors sounds like something out of ancient Rome. Georgia has a city called Rome on Alabama border.Can't wait until we get to the year of Six Emperors!
Also sounds like the Year of Three Popes (1978 being the most recent with the deaths of Paul VI and John Paul I, and then the election of the first non-Italian Pope, John Paul II from Poland).
Living in Lumpkin County, Georgia, and a Georgian for 38 years, I find Georgia history - in fact Southern history in general to be colorful and, well, entertaining.
Substitute "embarrassing" for "entertaining" and you are there. Racist, shitty, and I speak as someone who lived there, the place is a joke. Did I mention, racist?
As Billy Joel said, the good old days weren’t always good, and tomorrow ain’t as bad as it seems. It is an intriguing bit of psychology. People find a false sense of security in the past because they already know what happened and how it’s going to turn out which gives a illusion of predictability. People generally find it comfortable when things to be stable and reliable. Nostalgia and sentimentality tend to paint over the dents and dings and ugly bits in the memories of the past.
@@HM2SGT , And yet the mythology of America and "American exceptionalism" says that we are the one country in the world where a person can reinvent themselves, time and time again if need be, more so than in any other. I think we get ourselves into deep doodoo precisely because we believe our own myths.
@@goodun2974 😂 Indeed. Confidence is one thing, but when you start believing your own press releases… 👍 America is an amazing place, there is nowhere quite like it in the world - which isn’t to say there aren’t other places that are very good, just in a different way. For those who are unfamiliar: “American exceptionalism“ was a result of the false prosperity of post second world war USA which was due to a unique set of circumstances, mostly the United States having the most modern industrial infrastructure in the world whereas much of the rest of the world had been hammered flat. Once the rest of the world rebuilt and retooled, suddenly they had the most modern and eventually our lead shrank. Within a generation we’d developed this identity based on erroneous data and rested on our laurels, & were surpassed by Formosa and Japan. But the always turns, The tech revolution put us back in the forefront but now we’re dealing with the BRIC challenge. heavy stuff.
@@HM2SGT , Actually I suspect the American exceptionalism mythology begin when somebody in the distant past (I don't recall who) called America "the last best hope of the world". Or probably even before that, since such mythologies don't just appear out of thin air....
I am a lifelong Georgian, having once taken a course in Georgia history. I recall the history book refering to Herman Talmadge's secession of the governorship of his father, I did not understand the struggle that entailed. I do recall that Herman did quite a few pork projects. I recall talking to a lifelong resident of Decatur county, Herman's home county that if you didn't want a farm road or driveway paved you had to block the entrance. Otherwise it might be paved it's entire length before dark. I can attest that while a resident there in the early 1980's there were many paved roads that had not been maintained and only portions of asphalt remained among the clay or sand roadway. Herman's legacy.
Dad had some timberland in Hall County, GA. He asked some of the Talmadge Old Boy Network (I suppose, he was one of them or had some association), if they'd mind paving the road that went through the property, just a hundred feet in, since the highway it ran off was in the process of getting paved, so the equipment was already there. The dirt road through the property was about 2 miles long. Next time Dad who lived in Atlanta, made it up to his Hall County property, he saw, that they not only paved it 100 feet in, as he'd requested, they paved the whole 2 miles!
In the 1950s and 1960s, when I was a kid up in Rome, Ledbetter Construction did the road paving the same way you described. Obviously a political crony of the mighty Talmadge family.
Talmage reminds me of Alabama Governor James Elisha "Big Jim" Folsom Sr. who served from 1947-1951, again from 1955-1959 and ran for a third term in 1962 against George Wallace. My parents told me about one campaign speech, might have been the 1962 campaign but I've forgotten what year they said, and alas, I can no longer ask them to clarify; this speech was delivered in a town in Limestone County, AL. In this speech Fulsom said that during his administration, he and his road commissioner had stolen enough money to build SR-53 from Huntsville, Alabama to the state line community of Ardmore, TN/AL (in Limestone County); he followed that statement up with a boast that if elected to another term he would steal enough money to widen SR-53 into a four-lane highway for that same stretch. He was not re-elected; and SR-53 has only been widened to four lanes from Huntsville NW to Harvest, AL at the junction of SR-53 and Jeff Road; the section from Jeff Road to Ardmore (about 75-80% of the milage) is still 2 lanes only. SR-53 also runs south from Huntsville along the same route as US-231 all the way to Dothan, AL, where it again becomes a separate highway. Senator Beauregard Claghorn? Ah, Kenny Delmar, your character creation lives on!🤣"That's a joke, son!" Delmar would play the senator on "The Fred Allen Show" on radio and in the movie "It's a Joke, Son!" For those of you who remember the Looney Tunes character Foghorn Leghorn, he was a parody of Senator Claghorn, who himself was a parody.
"Time magazine said Georgia received more attention then a two headed calf." ^this is hilarious, because until the renovation that restored the GA capital in the early 2000's, they had a small museum in the capital with memorabilia, and other nick-nacks. Including a two-headed calf. (I'm pretty sure) I remember visiting as a 5-6 year old in 1994. They had a few animals with two heads on display including a garden snake. I think it was just part of a natural history section of the museum. It was alongside specimens of minerals, and displays of crops and such. I don't know when the museum was installed, but the irony of a two-headed calf being in the capital where this spectical happen is hilarious.
@@Eddie42023 I was quoting the vid. Grammer isn't my Forte. I guess if I was going to take another stab at it, I would put: "Time magazine said 'Georgia received more attention then a two headed calf.'"
My mom worked at the state capitol for most of my childhood - I spent a lot of time wandering around the museum on the 4th floor. There was definitely a two-headed calf on display in a glass case. And a two-headed snake in an acrylic block. I don't know where the firearms collection got moved to, though. If I recall, it was Ben W. Fortson, Jr.'s collection.
Always great stories but this is one of the best! Relevant and gripping at the same time. Loved the quotes and the careful accounting of political machinations
There are so many questions on the supreme court. I would like to see a video on how to supreme court has developed into the current 9 members and the history behind their most controversial decisions.
This would be a good subject for a deep dive into our judicial history. I do know that the court has had as few as 6 and as many as 10 justices. And by the way it might interest you to know that although every Justice has indeed been a lawyer it isn't strictly written anywhere in the Constitution that they must be. Nor is it written that they must be American citizens , and theoretically Congress and the President could appoint a non American to the Supreme Court and he or see could serve as Justice whether or not he has a law degree and whether or not he is a citizen as long as he/she doesn't take a federal salary , which only citizens are legally allowed to do. Being a bit of a wise ass to say the least I would like to nominate Pope Francis to the court as I am believe he would be happy to do the job for free, and I would expect his decisions to be more humane than what we are seeing from the court lately, and the ultra religious current members of the court could hardly object, could they?🤔😁 (ps, I am not a Catholic and I don't even believe in "god").
I have an audible recording called " The Great Courses: History of the Supreme Court". It is a lecture series given by a professor and civil rights attorney that argued before the court on a couple important cases. The series details the origin of the court, then Madison v Marbury followed by many important cases through history. It is 18 hours long and worth every minute many times over.
@@goodun2974 I will point out that although every justice on SCOTUS has been a lawyer or a law professor, until recently, not everyone on SCOTUS had a Juris Doctor (J.D.) professional degree; Justices Ginsburg and Breyer were the last two members of SCOTUS that had Bachelor of Laws (LL.B.) degrees (the equivalent to a M.Ed., M.B.A., etc.). Hate to say this, but while Pope Francis might "look good" on SCOTUS, his post-graduate work was a Licentiate in Philosophy, which is the equivalent of a Masters in Philosophy degree awarded at some US colleges and universities (University of Pennsylvania being one of them) to those Ph.D. candidates who have completed the required coursework, but has yet to undertake the research and dissertation necessary for the Ph.D. And even a Licentiate in Canon Law (the Catholic equivalent to a LL.B.) would still not qualify one to take the Bar Exam in the US as the laws in the US are based on the Common Law in England and Wales, not the Roman-based Civil Laws of countries like France and Spain (which the laws of Louisiana, Quebec, and Scotland are based off of).
Exactly. I hear it said all the time we are a very divided country now days. A review of american history starting with the continental congresses , civil war, jim crow, internment of japanese citizens, vietnam, race riots of 60s , … , up to today. Makes one wonder except for maybe a few brief years during ww1 and 2 when were Americans even somewhat united? 🤔
In 1916, Arizona had two Governors, George W. Hunt and Thomas P. Campbell after after a disputed election. Eventually the Arizona Supreme Court ruled Campbell the winner.
"The past is never over; it isn't even past". F. Scott Fitzgerald. As proof of this I give you the state of Georgia which is still stuck, mired really, in the Confederacy. "Oars into the current, born ceaselessly into the past" as Fitzgerald also wrote.
As a native Georgian -- born in 1970, so the only memory I have of Herman Talmadge is of him being a U.S. Senator from my state -- I enjoyed how objective and factual this presentation was. I, of course, had heard about this event in school, but it was a very one-sided story, as you'd expect. Thanks for giving us a clear look at a time in our history that we can all hopefully learn from.
This story basically shows that despite what it appears like, politics hasn't really changed at all. No matter the party or location, being full of crap is seemingly a prerequisite to being a politician.
I learned something new. This Georgia crisis, and rebellion over ballot irregularities in Tennessee in 1946--what else was happening? I'm told that the US was very close to dissolving during the 1960's. The Thirties were certainly a crisis period. The immediate post-WW2 era had severe strife over the machine politics of the Thirties--and there was even "the Revolt of the Admirals." When I hear people whine about how divided the USA is today, I tell the whiners that the United States of America is the premier banana republic--if not the original banana republic.
I knew a little about this believe it or not because of an episode of the Jack Benny program. Jack made a joke about who’s the real governor in Georgia. Thanks for the video! Wonderful video as always!!
That's actually a mistranslation. It should be "The more things change, the more they become the same" Just because a saying is popular doesn't mean it's true.
It was a mess, but it was a state level mess! Bill & Hillary Clinton brought that old fashioned Southern "old boy network", state level corruption to DC, where it remains to this day!
One other interesting part of this drama was the Ga secretary of state in 1947 was a paraplegic named Ben Fortson who had the duty of securing the official seal of the state. The governor would need this seal to formalize any executive order. Mr Fortson hid the seal under the cushion of his wheelchair until the controversy was resolved. I am a Georgia native and heard Mr Fortson tell this story when I was a teenager. He served as Ga sec of state for over 30 years.
Considering they were swiftly caught trying to manipulate the vote in small, rural counties 75 years ago, it seems absurd to suggest that irregularities in that election are evidence of voting irregularities in larger scale elections these days.
Thanks for this. My father explained this to me when I was young, but I never really understood what happened. Your explanation is clear and concise. Only other comment: Gene Talmadge's son's name is pronounced, "Huhmun."
Amazing that in 1947 Georgia people actually took the time to produce evidence of fraud before claiming the election was rigged. The old tried and true practice of passing laws to keep black people from voting seems to be the strongest connection between then and now.
A little before my time. My mother told me about it. Said she was ashamed to tell people she was from Georgia! (And my dad told a story about Gene Talmadge running for governor. This one old fellow was listening to the election returns on the radio and apparently ole Gene was losing. The old guy was so mad he snatched up his radio and threw it out the window!)
You kind of glossed over the fact that Talmadge's camp were expert parliamentarians. For example, Talmadge supporters used every trick in Robert's Rules of Order to delay ratifying the Lt. Governor's election, because if Thompson hadn't been sworn in yet, he wasn't actually Lt. Governor, thus he could neither succeed Eugene or take the job away from Herman. Also, be careful what you wish for: one of Eugene's most popular initiatives was to simplify Georgia's license plate system and reduce license plate fees from $13.50 to $3. Talmadge waited until Georgia's part-time legislature left town before implementing the plan. And he could do that because a few years previously the legislature gave the governor power to implement such plans… specifically to reign in the Commissioner of Agriculture, Eugene Talmadge!
I was brought up in Alabama in the 1950s and early 60s. Our governors continued that proud tradition of corruption paired with alcoholism for a long time. Of course, we didn't quite rise to the level of Illinois whose governors make license plates, according to a oft-told joke. Perhaps because ours never faced any consequences.
In the early 2000's the President of the Cook County Board died. He had held the position for years, but somehow you could never find anyone who would admit voting for him. His son somehow "inherited" the position from his father. I could never figure out how.
@@mattportnoyTLV Yep! The Stroger royal family. LOL The Cook County board even renamed Cook County hospital after John Stroger, which HE HIMSELF voted in favor of before he died.
@@mattportnoyTLV Well, I've lived here in City of Chicago proper all of my life, and I can assure you that is classic "Crook County". Our city and state governments are corrupt, but the WORST has always been the county, and on so many levels. The city tax is barely noticeable, but once you cross the COUNTY line, gas, alcohol, and tobacco taxes drop like an anvil.
I am a teacher in Georgia and have taught this - many kids cannot believe that this actually happened. Adults acting like children - is it not something how history repeats itself?!?!?!
Florida had 3 governors inside a month in December of 1998 and January of 1999. Lawton Chiles died, Buddy Mackey took over for 3 weeks then Jeb Bush was sworn in. Also in January 1987. Bob Graham resigned. Wayne Mixson was governor for a day before Bob Martinez.
Your video is proof positive that the more things change, the more they stay the same. Really enlightening and, yes, offers some hope for the Republic. On another note, I have to wonder if the elder Talmadge was the inspiration for gubernatorial candidate (and grand dragon of the KKK) Homer Stokes in “O Brother, Where Art Thou.”
No. Eugene Talmadge was a racist only in his professional political life. He just exploited race and racism to get elected. Not that it's okay or anything, but he wasn't part of the KKK. There were plenty of other Southern politicians, particularly from the Mississippi & Louisiana area, that character was drawn from.
You really can't make this stuff up, so it has to be true. This is one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time, and before this one was the beer riot at the ball park.
I enjoyed the romp through some of Georgia's colorful political history, but was disappointed you did not mention what happened in the Lt Gov race. With Melvin Thompson seated as governor, a special election was held for Lt Gov and our family's good friend and neighbor, Brig Gen Marvin Griffin (Adjutant General of the Georgia National Guard), was elected. Marvin later became governor of the state from 1955-59. He was quite a colorful character who was well liked by all. Where the characters Senators Snort and Beauregard Claghorn only existed in fiction, Marvin Griffin existed in real life almost as their counterparts.
The 21st Century is "living in interesting times". Videos like this show that nothing is really new as to human behavior. Only technology and the actors change.
I just finished The Great Quake: How the biggest earthquake in North America changed our understanding of the planet by Henry Fountain. As well as documenting the experiences of those in the area, it also tells the history of the theory of plate tectonics. Available in audio book format as well. Check your local library.
@@OneOfThoseTypes I think they do...otherwise the electoral system wouldn't seem to favor them so much. I'd say what they don't understand is how they could actually have lost...but this is not the best venue for an in-depth political discourse.
Later this would happen in New Jersey: the first time Christine Todd Whitman resigned upon being appointed and confirmed to be George W. Bush's EPA Director, and the second time when Jim McGreevy resigned due to.....well everyone knew. In both cases, the President of the New Jersey State Senate also became (Acting) Governor: Donald DeFranchesco after Whitman's resignation, and Richard Codey after McGreevy. While this arraignment already raised eyebrows as the Senate President also served as Governor at the same time (similar to Prime Ministers in Westminster-type parliaments), for the few days between January 1st, 2002 and when Whitman's successor (McGreevy) was sworn in, DeFranchesco, another State Senator, and the Attorney General of New Jersey rotated as Acting Governor of New Jersey. Thankfully, under Codey's successor, Jon Corzine, the NJ State Constitution was amended to allow for the election of a Lieutenant Governor along with the Governor: Kim Giordano becoming the inaugural Lieutenant Governor of New Jersey (and Secretary of State; NJ's Lieutenant Governor does not serve as State Senate President unlike the neighboring states of Delaware, New York, and Pennsylvania).
So interesting. I had never heard of this before and it somehow reminded me of that time in the 14th century in Europe, when there were 3 popes contesting each others legitimacy. 😊
Interesting. Another story about racist and their political party affiliation. Same people who started the ku Klux Klan, promoted slavery, and fought against the civil Rights act all belong to the same party as Tamadge.
I never heard of this person or of this part of history. Nevertheless, when I saw the older photo of this man, the first thing that came to mind was 'Oh, Brother, Where Art Thou'. 😂 Mississippi, Georgia, all the same. 😂
Indeed they did. The southern states, the rebellious states were all Democrat. It’s only comparatively recently that they turned Republican. In the 19th and 20th century they were known as “yellow dog Democrats“, from Texas to Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Missouri… Because the people would vote for yellow dog as long as it was a Democrat.
Postwar political shenanigans in the south reminded me of the story of the Battle of Athens. If you haven't done that I'd love to hear your take on it.
"I think you don't know the meaning of that word." Actually I just couldn't resist that quote. The meaning of "conservative" as used there and then IMHO wasn't the same as I use it to describe people now.
we're not able to tell whether they mean the side that was at the time referred to as conservative or the side that we would define with our modern understanding as fitting the traits of conservativism
Ahhhh, the Talmadge saga and why Georgia's legislature and governor and hands off on elections in this state, thank God, or rather Gene and Herman...oh, and thank you Ben Fortson, the Secretary of State saved the day then too.
