2 songs I can't figure out 

Glad I wasn't the only one wondering about that Opeth solo 😁

Porcelain Heart is most certainly a mind boggler, I love it.

I am sure you have heard that you are in a Swedish metal history documentary in the section about Meshuggah. Made me happy!

The solo of Porcelain Heart is based on the triplet subdivision but played in different grouping. If you listen to the song with a triplet subdivided click at 130 without accent it works for both the riff and the drum solo.

As for the freakout solo in "Porcelain heart" we just did maybe 20-30 takes. I lost the sense timing and rhythm (too complicated) since Axe is playing all over the place, and couldn't foresee when the part should end. Somehow Axe perfectly understood the "beat" and nailed it a number of times, but it wasn't crazy enough until we got what's on the album. It was basically standing ovations in the mixing room once we got that down. Fucking tricky shit, not studio trickery! - Mikael Akerfeldt

Watershed is my favoriteOpeth album too. A lot of people seem to disregard it as generic and not as innovative as the previous ones but it's very diverse (with the folky, the proggy and the metal stuff in perfect dosages) and I personally love pretty much every track (except for "Porcelain Heart" which I'm not really fond of, but haven't heard in a good while and might give another chance later). Great video btw!

3:50 The drumming was quite amusing hehe I replayed it like 5 times

In the Cory Henry song, the keyboard hits you refer to in this video sound very strongly to me as though they are happening on the & of 2 (in a 2-bar or 8-count phrase)

Of the three options you guessed for First Steps, I solidly hear option 2. The key to the puzzle is…the keyboard! It’s on the “and” of beat three. The bass line should feel kinda smooth and sassy. Might help after a bit imagining a snare on two and four to really solidify the whole groove. La Di Da: ahh yes, the old funk “out of context guitar syncopation intro”. The key to this puzzle is the snare, it’s definitely not on the downbeat! It’s on the “a” of beat one and beat three. The kick is firmly on beat one and beat three throughout. The bass line is a little fancy, plays both with and against the kick. Also the bridge at 2:48 has the backup chorus vocals right on beat one, that should help seal the deal! And finally I think you’re right with the Opeth track!

First Steps strongly sounds like the keyboard hits on the & of 1 and the bassline on the E of 2. I can't really provide a solid rationale for why - that just feels right based on the accented notes in the drum comping, what I typically hear in how keyboard players delay the chords when they comp this type of fusiony material - but it's what immediately stood out to me and still feels the most right.

The bassline of first steps starts on the 2nd 16th of the 2 bar of the 2 bar phrase. The chord during the theme is in the second bar on the 2nd eigth note of beat 4. And the synth theme starts on the one! Or at least to me it sound like that and makes sence. Greetings from austria😉🤘🏻

oh man I'm so glad the drum solo from porcelain heart got you too! makes me feel much less stupid. he moves the feel around so much it's so weird to count

Wahoo! You're back!

Yogev ma man! In the first song by Cory I hear the one on the 4th note of the bass line, the keys are playing the “and” of beat 3, that’s how it sounds to me :)

Mate, your cardboard drumming was awesome!

As you said Porcelain Heart is in triplet based subdivision. What I think happens during the solo is the grouping of the triplets changes into groups of 4 triplets (3 groups per bar) and uses the accent as the main pulse. This does not really work out with the ratio of 112:130 however, so I am a little confused. The new grouping makes sense and when I tap along in triplets and change to accent every 4th triplet note, it starts making a lot of sense. When I tap this main pulse into the metronome I get 112 bpm, but the ratio still doesn't make sense to me.

Watershed אלבום מעולה!!! עניין אותי מה כבר יכל לסבך אותך עם אופת', מעניין מאוד. אישית האלבומים still life וdamnation בין האהובים עלי אי פעם

In "Porcelain Heart", I'm pretty sure Axe did the same thing as Portnoy did on the ending of "Finally Free"; he simply listened to the click while not following it and playing totally freely while still keeping tabs on when to end.

I think in First Step the emphasis is made towards the third note of the group. It's a very stylish clash of ways of thinking/listening to it from part of the musicians involved, for sure. In Axe's solo, I think I once heard Mikael say that Axe was recording the drums to the song and suddenly just went full solo mode after that beatswitch and actually landed the trick, but being a drummer, and having heard and played the part a couple dozen times (you played the solo really well, too!! ^^) I think ultimately it's about that thing that drummers can do. A little bit of improvised magic which makes no apparent sense if you try to break it down afterwards. I love your channel btw :B :B :B !!!!!

MIND BLOWING!!!! LOVE it!!

to me, the first one is pure feels, super jazz interpretation levels. the solo... i think the solo from opeth is the drummer being a drummer. best to follow the guitars on that one.

First Steps is definitely adding or taking away some 8ths because I'm getting the keys on the and of either 3 or 4 (I was counting 7) and then it starts to be on the down.

It was great to have you at Freak Guitar Camp!

To me the Cory Henry song clearly sounds like the chords fall on beat 2, not 4. It's true that it could be interpreted in a million ways but I feel that with that interpretation you get the most "idiomatic" groove.

Oh my god the drum solo, I had completely forgotten that one! It's pretty much my favourite part of the song! I think the explanation is that he simply plays on another internal beat (which is why it makes a bit sense in 112bpm), while still keeping track of where he is in the original beat. It sounds complicated, but it's really just a matter of strong orientation in the original beat, kind of when playing polymetrically over a different time signature.

That shift to 112 is a pretty slick trick; I'm stealing that for a future song for sure!

Yeah for that section in Porcelain heart, Axe is playing in a 6/8 polyrhythm, while the rest of the band plays the same 4/4. If you count 6 beats in the same span of 4 beats in the original 130 bpm, it rounds out nicely.

That means you CAN figure out Marrow... and that is IS incoming... mmmmm...

Wow my friend your cinematography had some improvemnt! 🤘🤘

That opeth drum bit sounds fucking great. They did all sorts of silly stuff on that album, like when they detuned that guitar while it was playing at the end of Burden

To me, on the first song , I feel it like an anacrusic melody with the beat one is clearly the 4th note (it's longer also). Once the keyboard is in, it makes it even more clear to me. On the Opeth song I think the drummer is just embellishing the guitar melody, soloing freely on each measure and changing the subdivision/tempo but always matching with the important beats of the melody/

if your idea of the bpm change is correct, a possibility would be to consider at first sixteenth triplets at 130bpm. Each will have a 780bpm tempo. Then you play them in groups of 7, and that would give you the 112 bpm feel. It sounds like metric modulation to me.

Regarding Porcelain Heart, Joe Crabtree a drummer here on RU-vid transcribed the solo many years ago. I never read it though, but the “teaser” for it is still up on his channel :)

Yo, do you know the band Sleepytime Gorilla Museum? There is a cool break in the song "1997 (tonight we're gonna party like it's)" and some other songs have cool poly-stuff...

Porcelain Heart: he Vinnie Colaiuta’d that shit. Metric-modulation.

I think there is a time concordance between the 9 bars at 130 and the 112bpm you found. I think you're right, they just decided to find a tempo that wuld end up matching in duration and shoved it in. Completely off beat.

I think you will have a fun time with Reasons by Pain of Salvation.

Listening a bit to Cory Henry and his composition style, it looks like those electric piano chords might be on the 2,5. So that would make the first beat the 7th circle on your drawing.

For the 2nd song, I think they’re still in the original tempo and subdivision but the drummer feels it as 3 groups of 4 rather than the 4 groups of 3. Giving it a slower 3/4 feel. But then plays 4/4 over the top of that. So some kind of polymeter for the drum solo ‘tempo’ when nothing has really changed. Then the drummer just plays around with it doing other subdivisions because why not.

First steps is 15/16 (2nd last note of the moog bass is the 1) IE the 2nd accent that yogev highlights, except that is the 4, not the 1 The 15/16 feels like it cuts the 3short

If they did use superimposed tempos on the Opeth track, it may be a nod to Frank Zappa who superimposed solos from different tracks in different tempos on a number of occasions.

I KNOW this wasn't intentional, but the Opeth example is at 130. 130 ÷ 5 x 4 = 112. So he's taking 4 5ths of a whole note, then making that the new quarter note. Wild.

With First Steps, I hear the one falling on the second-to-last note of the bassline. Keyboards hit the And between 2 and 3.

Have you heard the outro of the "King's X" song "We Were Born To Be Loved" ? I have no clue how they count the breaks

My explanation for porcelain heart is "unleash the kraken"

Another very confusing riff imo is the section that starts at around 6:02 in Never Seen/Future Shock by BTBAM. I just can't figure out what's going on here lol

The La Di Da groove goes like this: ||1 - - da 2 - - - 3 - - da 4 - - -|| The 'da' is the snare. The bass guitar is often coming in on the last 16th note of the bar before it - which I have always called a 'push'. It's a very cool groove, but it doesn't throw me like, say, Stengah does. Anyway I only had a quick listen, so my apologies if I am wrong.

anyone know the song used in the 'Welcome' section? thanks

I hear the bass line in first steps starting on the e of 1 and the chords on the + of 3

5:45 - Ooohhh I have an idea (maybe) as to what's going on with this supposed random tempo that works. They take the 12 total notes (or 4/4 in triplets) per bar, and they change where the downbeat/click is! It's hard to explain how I see/hear it haha... I visualise it like so: - || 1 . . | 2 . . | 3 . . | 4 . . || is the original grouping of down beats in the 12/8 (numbers mark downbeat, dot marks quaver) - For the solo, they then turn it into this - || 1 . . . | 2 . . . | 3 . . . || -It's the same quantity of notes, yet different accents, so it's kinda like a metric modulation? Who agrees/disagrees? I thought I'd share how I saw some method in the madness haha - Though I would have never thought that a new tempo was thrown into that drum solo! Crazy catch Yogev! Love your content as always!

Brooooo when you played the cardboard drums 😂

Maybe in porcelain heart it becomes 7/8 with half tempo? there's also some consistency with the snare alternating with the hat. That might also make no sense, but maybe there's something there?

"teaching guitarists about polyrhythms" had me laughing tears

The last but one note of the First Steps bass riff sounds like beat 1 to me, with the keys chiming on two and a half. I'm not competent, but mention this purely to add to the diversity of opinion :)

It sounds to me like the keys hit on the AND of Three on the 'First Steps' song

Could it be that opeth porcelain heart does metric modulation since the tempo changes?

That tent is familiar...and the background music :)

To me Porcelain Heart sounds like he’s modulated the triplets into 16th notes. This would explain why the slower click lines up (not sure what the math would be to figure out the new implied tempo).

1. For me, the piano hits on the Cory Henry one feel natural when played on the 'and of 3'. 2. The Opeth one: maybe some sort of "free floating", rhythmic-ish pyramid thing? It does makes sense (to my ears) that he changes subdivisions before the crash accents, hence the rushing feel.

I think I may know what is happening in the Opeth drum solo. Since the song is in 4/4, and is played in a triplet feel, it's basically a 12/8 time signature. For the whole song the drums play the groove as 4 groups of 3 triplets. I believe what is happening in the solo, is that the drummer starts playing it as 3 groups of 4 triplets. I may be totally wrong, but I think it might just be a different feel.

Can you try to analyse Craw's "Bodies for strontium 90" songs, like "Is it safe" ?

Have you heard the new Jinjer album? The title song (Wallflower) is one of the weirdest songs I’ve heard recently in terms of time signatures. It doesn’t seem to ever stick to a single time signature for more than a bar or two, yet somehow the band manages to stay together and keep track of it.

I hear the keyboard hits as being the and of four. But I'd have to listen to the whole song since you said that it changes 🤷 The 112 was what I heard as well but I thought that it was closer to being some kind of polyrhythm in relation to the original 130 (no idea what it is but it had the feel of grabbing the 3 in a 4/3 or equivalent) I would try putting those two click tracks next to each other and see if anything pops out from that

For me, the cory henry one is most definitely a 2 beat pickup, so the longest sounding bass note is the one (like you stated in your third example), making the chord hits land on the 2 the other one…. 🤷‍♂️

I think the problem is rather trying to classify all songs in the rhythmic system we have. Especially the latter song just seems like an improvised fill part to purposely confuse the listener, probably there is no deeper logic where everything makes sense.

Heeey heeeeyy!!! You play azul????!! Nice!!

For the 1st song, I feel like it's definitely the 1st option. But it also feels like there's some kind of an extra note in there somewhere. Like a measure of 17/16 (4/4 + a 16th note) or something. And for the Opeth one, I'm sensing a bit of a tempo change. (watched more of the video) Yup, it seems that you came to the same conclusion.

I have literally no idea what Dillinger Escape Plan's "Dissociation" closing track is doing for meter, it feels like there's a stutter or glitch moment that sneaks inbetween measures...

I feel the chords in first steps as being on the and of 1

After more careful review I am counting 31/36, which makes a LOT of sense. As soon as you proved 112 to be an accommodating tempo I knew it was going to be a polymetric hypermeter. 6/7 makes the most sense, but doesn't fit perfectly, leaving some room to wonder what is going on. I suppose a 42 beat section would have been too long, counting as over 10 bars of the original tempo, so they went for the next common multiple in descending order (30/35), but 30/35 is a very "odd" feeling conclusion at again 10 bars of 3/4 or ending somewhere other than 1 in the 4/4. BUT... 35 is super duper close to 36, which is a very nice multiple of 4. So let's just add 1 on both sides: 31/36. Now just freestyle drums in a 6/7 feel for 9 bars of 4/4. GGEZ

Out of all the songs Ive heard so far, I have to stay the one that has confused me most is from Final Fantasy 13-2, its called eternal fight and has such a weird stilted feel to it

I feel (and played) porcelain heart as a free floating drums that does respect the total measure time but plays freely over that period, respecting the main beats. So it's not meant to be measured in a conventional way, it is meant to create chaos and dissonance in a specific period of time

Having worked with too many jazz musicians I think it is safe to assume that they don't know themselves...

Not entirely sure but isn't the opeth one modulated? If you count sextuplets on top of the riff, then modulate it to 16th notes from there, then that's the feel axe is playing in the solo?

On the topic of beat 1 ambiguity in regular songs, I am curious whether you think He's The Greatest Dancer by Sister Sledge starts on beat one or beat 3. I always thought it started on beat three, but a lot of people I know seem to count it differently. I wonder if it has anything to do with Will Smith🧐

the song that completely breaks my brain is nightingale by haken. i can't for the life of me figure out what's going on in the final 90 seconds of the song. @YogevGabay can you do a video about it? :D

Check out the solo on 'Dam That River' by Alice In Chains, that's a tricky one too!

He might just be following the same *beats per second* as the rest of the band (6.5bps), but playing them as 3 sets of 16th notes instead of 4 sets of triplets: 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 (band) 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 (Axe) During the second half at least you can hear plenty of hits regularly line up. I think adding to the confusion is that he's possibly speeding slightly up and down for effect, and also the first half is just extra chaotic Set your metronome to 390bpm, and see if it lines up with both 130bpm x 3 (triplets) and 97,5bpm x 4 (16th notes)?

can you please do a review of any thing that dillinger escape plan does. or a band called the locust. youd be my hero

Yogev I feel the same way with the song opening by Virgil donati called in this life I cant figure out the guitar what time Signature is in th ne opening of that song the guitar plays different subdivisions then the drummer .I have been having trouble trying to figure this one out for a couple of years can you please help me .

Are those Azul and Mage Knight I spy in the background? :O

I want to think mikael just asked martin to play “whatever you feel” and he did this

sometimes rhythm doesn't have to be divided into units and closely analyzed, it can be free flowing and beyond calculation. just my guess.

For "First Steps" I hear the keyboard lick starting on the "e" of 2, so the top note of the lick is beat 3. (1-and-2da-da-da-DAH da-da Da Da ) This puts the chords on the and of 1. Seems, though, that he's pretty loose with the time on this tune. The lick appears to start on the downbeat occasionally. Opeth sounds to me like the drummer is simply freestyling over the vamp.

Have you ever looked at "Fold4, Wrap5" by Autechre?

After the first few beats in the opeth try tapping the drag triplet. So modulate to the drag triplet. It also explains why the solo is played in 3. Interesting. 112/130 = 0.86. 130*2/3 = 86.6.

Yea! The background music is Flummoxed from the camp!

IA's camp song Flummoxed playing in the back ground. I love it. It was great to see you at the Freak Guitar Camp Yogev. It would be great to hear your thoughts on the madness of it all. For the songs. I don't have any specific suggestions, that's not my jam, it's yours. =) I am however going to stretch my philosphical legs a bit. Just like I asked you at the camp, somewhat philosophically. I am a bit of the opinion (unschooled in music, as I am) that meters, subdivision and pulse need to be communicated clearly to listeners for there to be a "correct answer". There are other competing pulses and meters that might also describe a section possibly correct, right? Although they might complicate things. As long as they fit within a count, right. Right? In this same school of thought, Before being able to observe the solar system more deeply and clearly Ptolemy (Ptolemaeus), in Greece, about 100, 200 years after 0, or AD; formulated mathematical descriptions of the solar system as a geocentric system, i.e everything rotating around the earth. We now know that It is simply much much more complicated, and some errors arise here and there. But it was the best he could do with the "information communicated". To my knowledge later scholars have built upon this description as an exercise, to fully describe the rotations of the solar system bodies as a working mathematical, geocentric, system. Those descriptions actually work but are hideously complex, though. =) Later, when observations continued by Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler, they used the geocentric view as a basis to make predictions, so in some fashion, it was correct. Out of this rose an even more correct and more importantly, simpler description. Hence the heliocentric view became the dominant one. So while there might be a factually correct answer, as intended by the artist. BUT, and this is my point, if that idea is not communicated, then it is anyone's best guess and that might be just it. To be ambiguous and open to interpretation. To take some artistic license and maybe be a little random. Long winded thought on just accepting the not knowing. Not everything needs a factual answer and not everything can be factually answered; yet. Too many times people pull their hair to quantify or quantize stuff that might not be quantifiable or quantizable. But I still need you to continue describing stuff that I can't myself figure out. Be good! Peace!

Your cardboard drums sound way better than mine.

Can you do a quick one one CLOUDKICKER - Push it way up! ? Pretty please

The opeth one certainly feels like it has a relationship to the A tempo. Perhaps the A tempo and the solo tempo both be modulations from a third unheard tempo? Or perhaps there's just some ridiculous tuplet polymeter going on.

idk man I feel like the solo on porcelain heart sounds better and more fitting on the 130 bpm. maybe it's just me. I think he's doing some 4:5 polyrhythm or something like that. the 112 didnt sound like it's sitting on it.

On the Opeth drum solo maybe it's best to ignore the rest of the band and see how much the drum beats deviate off the 2nd or 3rd beat to calculate if he's playing for example quintuplets, septuplets or other tuplet variations over the triplet or 4/4 groove. It sounds to me (and I'm quite possibly wrong) that he's increasing and decreasing the tuplet values in waves. I don't have any education in this so I'm just using my ears and some kind of "amateur logics".

For Porcelain Heart, I'm stuck between two specific explanations (it might be a combination of both) When poking at it, it immediately felt like 7/6 to me. The math, if I am doing it right, comes out as 111.428 bpm, but the end of the section doesn't really line up with that. the whole section is ultimately 36/32 beats, 115.5bpm, but that also doesn't feel 100% right. I think he uses the 7/6 polymeter and then slightly changes in the last measure so that it can meet the rest of the band for beat 1 of the new section. It sure is an interesting drum solo though.

Totally hearing the Cory Henry keys as the 2nd beat in the measure

1st song: first 3 notes of the bass keys are anticipatory and land on the downbeat on the 4th note BUT the downbeat is beat 3 and not 1. And when the first chords come in they land on the and of 1. And the song just goes on this way into the end. The drums give it away. However, there's really no matter of fact as to where the 1 is or what time signature any song is. But if you wanted to notate it for others to play, that's by far the easiest interpretation to sight read. 2nd song... no idea.... sounds like an open solo that just resolves to land on the 1 at the end of the section...

I think both of these songs have the same thing to them, which is that they were probably performed without a metronome (or at least without regard to one). Human error can be frustrating to encounter when you’re trying to objectively analyze a song, but it can also be enlightening to know that these musicians managed to do something great while breaking one of the most fundamental rules. I still believe that the tools do/will exist to be able to perfectly analyze what’s going on in both of these songs, however I don’t think the answer is ever going to fully satisfy us the same way that most of your other videos do.

try 111.42857 instead of 112 and it might line up better at the end. I think the drummer was instinctively playing 6/7 without knowing. It's not that crazy really but pretty awesome.

I also feel like the drum solo is played 'freely'', still hitting some important beats to match the background, I don't find it that weird. Reminds me a lot of trading 4ths pr 8ths in jazz, where you in the comp mostly follow along in the universal bpm, and the drummer can go in and and out of tempo but still end up on the beat in the end.

In the Cory Henry song, it feels to me like the keyboards are on the upbeat of 1. So all instruments rest on the downbeat.