Sandy, I love your objectivity. I'm getting worried with all these content creators being featured in your wrap up videos. None, so far, have been able to add much to the conversation. I'd much rather see these influencers treated exactly as that, influencers. They're not the experts like you and your fantastic team. I love my Model 3 and I love watching your videos. Don't lose sight of what you've built and stay on track!
Seriously - when he said build quality didn’t matter it was like what dude?? Tesla owner here btw, but like, we should expect and praise well made EVs.
12V (or low voltage power) is required to energize the contactor "in the battery pack" for high voltage safety. If the main battery is disconnected (open circuit) at high speed, the voltage generated from the motor could damage the inverter unit and others. So once 12V battery is detected as defective, the system must be in limp mode. The 12V lead acid battery needs occasional over charging for cell balancing. Tesla charged the lead acid battery like Li-ion in the past and killing it in short time (less than 2 years). Always one of the 6 cells in the battery has the highest leakage and eventually over discharged. Once over discharged the degradation of the cell accelerated and kill the entire 12V battery pack.
Thanks for explaining why it needs one, but I agree with Sandy and Sean that there's no reason to have it prematurely and suddenly fail. The most important thing about designing an EV is battery management, and surely in the past century or so we've figured out how to manage a lead acid 12V battery. Just because they're not being charged by an alternator is no excuse to manage them badly. It seems like they just didn't put much effort into it.
@@-GrimEngineer-1337 In an accident or battery fire, the main battery needs to be able to be disconnected, and the power windows and electric door locks still work. The Hawker Odyssey 12v lead acid battery is FAA approved as a helicopter main battery, is the choice for rally cars, and only needs to be charged every 2 years, and is the perfect choice as an evs 12v battery. Ocean going jetskis all use this battery.
Thanks for explaining, though wouldn’t it be more accurate to say a low voltage circuit is required to energize the contactor in the high voltage circuit? What is the hazard of leaving the main battery always live if it’s only through a low voltage output? That would allow the elimination of the 12V battery and lighter, cheaper, more reliable vehicle.
Love my P2. Good to have the heads up about the 12v battery issue on EVs. Some Tesla owners tend to get defensive and dislike competition. I prefer the P2’s angular/muscular design to the Model 3 and Teslas’ generally whale-shaped chassis. I’m glad for the competition. Sandy in another video didn’t like the traditional door handles on the P2 but in Scandinavia and other cold climates the flush handles on Teslas and buttons on other EVs tend to ice over and become unworkable in winter.
Yes same here. My PS2 is a great car muscular chisled design and slightly raised ride. I feel the same about the Tesla 3. The 3 has poor build quality- panel gaps, seat material has a cheap feel like soft rubber, paint lustre missing, trim detachment to the hood liner, speedometer out of clear view and questionable ride quality. Just my view point.
My P2 got plenty of snow and ice over it during January and yeah, those handles didn't really help. They were literally filled with solid ice. Couldn't open it. That said, the vehicle sat virtually unused for two months in below zero Celcius temperatures and didn't lose HV or 12v battery voltage. I was impressed.
“In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists.” From Eric Hoffer
Slightly different version: "In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists." Supposed to be from Reflections on the Human Condition. I'm not personally able to verify and I don't trust the quote sites and other re-re-re-quotes to be accurate. If Sandy really cares I'm sure he can get himself a copy of the book.
To be honest I don't like this kind of videos, this "collaborations" with influencers that have almost nothing to add to the debate. We want to see the guts of the machine and you guiding the teardown, not the superficial impressions of some random youtube guy.
Lol That's like complaining about commercial TV - change the channel - or better yet read a book and get off the screen. This is entertainment, good entertainment because you learned something. Sandy covers the battery, motor and drivetrain config - body fitment and chassis config, what do you think you are missing? Anything proprietary he will SELL you as that's his business. As far as Tesla haters - nobody cares; I made a FORTUNE off TSLA from idiots that don't know jack and I hope they keep it up. There's only one car co that doesn't advertise and keeps breaking sales records and that's all one need to know. 🇺🇸
I don’t understand, there’s no button? Or do you mean the newest Hyundai Ioniq with 38 kWh? we have tried several times that the 12 voltage battery dies and therefore the Hyundai is absolutely dead. And the only solution is to charge the 12 volt battery. We have bought a jump starter and now we always can get it up and running again. These emergency situations have unfortunately been there several times
The lead acid battery is made for ICE vehicles in that it requires the high cranking amps that gets an ICE started, to remove any buildup of deposits that form along the plates of the battery. If you had jumped the battery (with terminals removed) you’d have cleared the buildup of deposits and the battery issue would be resolved. I’ve owned a Ford Focus EV for 9 years and have had to do this several times with great success.
That "rental company" seems really unserious - there was a recall 6-7 months ago on the Polestar 2 to fix the 12V battery problem and I have not heard of any issues after that (except for this one).
The quote could be by ERIC HOFFER: In times of change learners will inherit the earth (succeed); while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists. Greetings from Germany 🇩🇪
Elon explained he would love to go to a higher voltage, but all the suppliers make 12-volt parts, and Re-engineer all the components would cost too much at low volumes. Maybe there is an opportunity now.
You failed to realize that was bullshit, voltage can and is steeped up and down all the time. Using a 12v battery instead of a black box was a cost cutting measure and it was done badly.
@@thomaslemay8817 Yes - I wondered the problem is with just a regulated 12 volt output from the main battery - not exactly rocket science - and Elon should know a bit about that, ^oo^
You’re making my brain matter want to kick into high gear! I’m asking myself: “In these BEVs what really needs to be 12 volt anymore?” All the old 12V stuff either doesn’t and/or does not need to exist. The AC compressor is already higher voltage motor driven, lights are LED (not likely to fail) and can be any voltage, infotainment consoles are computers now - can be any voltage, cabin heating methods are already all over the place with regard to technique, steering assist is higher voltage motor, other controls (turn signaling, “gear” shifting, driving lights, individualized driving settings, etc) are mostly touch console selected by computer. This is the kind of stuff which is already unique in “manufacture” to each make and not self serviceable with spare parts from our local Auto Zone. What may not be so unique? Many of the non-traction related motors: seat adjustment, mirror adjustment, antilock brake cylinder modulator, windscreen wiper, ventilation blower(s), and the like. These last bits could stay 12V for convenience in manufacture but aren’t they already unique in their fitting to the oodles of different make/models of cars/trucks out there? For the most part, many of these too are not self serviceable via a local supply store. Let’s retire the 12V battery hobbles!
@@carrtb Don't forget Rome wasn't built in one day and we are in a transition mode. If Elon could kick this heavy battery out of there, it would be long gone ;-)
The first id.3's had the problem. They have a DC-DC converter that charges the 12V. All the computer stuff runs on 12V. They have to keep the voltage happy on the 12V battery.
My Leaf never went slow on the freeway when my 12 volt was low, i would use a jump pack for about 2 weeks tell a new battery came in. Polestar is Chinese junk
I've studied the 12V battery in my 2017 MX and recently replaced it. I checked its voltage over time and conditions, and I found that the vehicle seemed to frequently charge the 12V battery as long as the main battery was > 50%, but the vehicle stopped frequently charging the 12V battery when the main battery was < 50%. Very strange strategy when the 12V battery is so important to the vehicle operation. The vehicle software seems to trigger a 12V battery alert when the 12V battery static voltage is < 12.0V, and at this voltage the battery is essentially dead & can't sustain output voltage. A healthy 12V lead-acid battery voltage is 12.6V. The vehicle software should trigger a warning at a higher static voltage, like 12.2 V.
I have a 2013 model s which I love. When the mcu1 failure happened on mine I couldn't turn off the car fully and it ruined my 12v battery. I was stranded on vacation which sucked but luckily I got it fixed.
PLEASE Sandy, if you change your rating system, PLEASE have an Efficiency category.. i think that is the MOST telling on how good an electric vehicle really is. range is a terrible indicator.. as to increase range you just add batteries.. efficiency is what will tell me whether or not they are using the most out of that battery or are padding range with extra batteries.
@@user-yn5sk5ru5g No, energy consumption would be the same as range, add more, you can consume more. efficiency means if i have a 100kwh battery, and i can run that car for 500 miles, and another car with the same 100kwh battery can only go 300 miles, the first car is therefore more efficient when utilizing the energy contents of that battery. economy may be a little closer but that is based on cost of energy at the time of charging and other factors, so i meant what i said when i said efficiency.
@@dragonpc8258 the efficiency of all EV's will be about the same. You really do mean economy / energy consumption. A more aerodynamic car consumes less energy, but that is not efficiency. Efficiency us a dimensionless number, or expressed in %. kWh / 100 km is not efficiency. I agree,, it is a very important metric snd expect in the future, EV's will have to comply to consumption standards similar to ICE vehicles today. You are still talking about economy / energy consumption (effectiveness), not efficiency
@@dragonpc8258 an example. A truck hauling 40 tons will consume 30 L / 100 km, but the engine is running at 50% efficiency. A small passenger vehicle might cobsume 3L /100 km, so a lot less,but the engine is at 30% efficiency. So economy / energy consumption. Not efficiency. If you look at just going from A to B, both are equally as effective. If you judge by economy, the small passenger car is more effective, as it consumes less total energy. If you judge load, the truck does 40 ton in one ride, the small car will have to drive 400 times to movw the same weight, so the truck is more effective.
@@user-yn5sk5ru5g Look, at the end of the day, regardless of how "you" quantify it, I AM STILL TALKING ABOUT EFFICIENCY. I am NOT talking about economy. just because i cannot express it in the "correct way" does not mean i am talking about something other than what i stated. seriously It's probably a really good indicator WHY i want it expressed in videos MORE so i can actually understand and get the correct info, if not for the info it's self but so people will stop telling me i am talking about something i am not. :p /sigh
I test drove a Polestar 2 a couple of weeks ago. I found that overall, it was a really good contender, with really nice driving/handling characteristics, acceleration, and fantastic one pedal driving. The Android Automotive infotainment system is outstanding (but I am an Android user). I rather like the understated styling, as I'm not into flashy looking cars that might draw unwanted attention (like being keyed in a parking lot). The three main complaints I have with it is, very limited rear window visibility, an overly intrusive center piece that my right knee kept butting up against, and a generally poorly designed center console area. Why the heck did they think to incorporate a second cup holder into the actual console storage box is beyond me... Anyway, I do think it will sell well, but it's not for me. I test drove an AWD Mustang Mach E Premium a couple of weeks prior to the Polestar 2 test drive, and I prefer the Ford a little bit more. I'm looking forward to the ID.4 to come out in AWD later this year, but am very excited about both the Hyundai Ionic 5 and the Kia EV6. I guess the good thing is, there are more and more EV choices coming out in the next couple of years. PS: I've also driven a couple of Tesla Model S' in the past couple of years. It sets the standard pretty high, but isn't the AWD SUV EV I'm looking for. As for the Model Y - no thanks.
The Polestar 3 will have an entirely different interior. Everything opens up. However, the window area and visibility may still be more limited that with cars with larger window areas. But no center console. I guess they'll do better with cupholders. But the designers are the same guys that did the current Volvos and cupholders aren't their specialty, lol.
I totally agree that all EVs should change to lithium for the 12v battery. It amazes me that the problem causes the car to shut down without a timely warning. The needs to be a warning whenever the 12v battery is not receiving charge, just like the alternator warning light on an ICE car. At least with an ICE car you can often either finish the journey or give enough time for a diversion. In the meantime some of us are fitting voltage monitors to warn us whenever the 12v battery goes off charge. This is a small box which attaches direct to the 12v battery and uses Bluetooth to your phone.
If the dc to dc converter fails the battery will keep operating properly until the voltage drops too low and then there won't be much time till the car shuts down. That's the warning he got.
@@JRP3 While that may be what happened, the discharge timeconstant has got to be on the order of hours, and I can't help but think that somewhere between "detectably low" and "below minimum operating", a controller would have time to notice, even if it were programmed in Python. Also, what kind of "engineer" can't figure out how to keep critical controllers (what do they run on these days, 3V? 1.6V?) awake even if their nominal-14V supply droops to 6V??
I think it's not a matter of running down, but the battery failing. EIther the system messes up and overcharges, or the repeat constant deep-cycles cause internal shorts/problems etc that cause failures. That said, they should still last at least 2yrs, that's when Tesla Model 3's started having problems... but Polestar and Taycans failing this quickly?! that's a bug/problem.
I am really liking the Polestar 2 design and it exudes quality. Also liking the Porsche Taycan Gran Turismo. Probably get the Polestar 2. The Tesla's are too plain.
I totally value the technical expertise of a real estate agent when it comes to evaluating EVs. One nit: In lieu of subjective references to the car's "style", perhaps he could have phrased it instead as "curb appeal" to better align with his pedigree. 😉
@@manurao9965 yes, but he’s well-connected and doing coverage on Tesla and the EV space for a long time. His background deep-dives on the supply side of the business are really interesting.
I just changed for the first time, the 12 volt battery on my 2011 Leaf. The pissant solar panel on the Leaf roof apparently worked. The only problem was that when I listened to the radio in accessory mode, it would have a problem starting. So changed the battery and the problem disappeared.
There are good reasons for the 12V systems, as you might expect from the fact that *every* mass-produced EV has them. But for one to fail _while the main traction battery is ON_ can only mean one of two things, I think: either the 12V battery suddenly went bad, or the vehicle has a serious design flaw.
I don't understand the "12V" issue. I know why there has to be a 12V battery, because the supply chain doesn't have components in other voltages, but the keeping the 12V topped off problem..... By definition, the 12V is in constant use, and therefore the vehicle has a charging circuit in the car. So #1Q Is the charging circuit only active when it is plugged in to a house voltage, and thus during use the 12V capacity is consumed? #2 Is there no charging circuit from the car's battery pack? Why not? Is it because the step down transformer would be too big and expensive? #3 Is it because the software decides that the 12V is full, and then during operation doesn't turn the charging circuit back on? #4 I can think of any other reasons....
EVs will charge the 12V on an as-needed basis. Doesn't matter if the car is plugged in to shore power, or if it's turned on or off. If the 12V gets low the main pack is brought online (contactors close) and the 12V is recharged via a DC-DC converter. If you leave an EV parked for a few days you'll notice it will have less remaining range than when you parked it due to it periodically coming to life to recharge the 12V. As for what happened on this Polestar, looks like a fault in the DC-DC converter prevented it from charging the 12V so the 12V discharged and the car shut down.
In the accident, the main battery will be disconnected inside the battery pack for high voltage safety. 12V is required for unlocking door, hazard lights, etc.
My Nissan leaf had a low 12 volt, i had a portable jumper and would use that for a week with no issues, never stranded me on the freeway. Polestar is just Chinese junk
I would never consider this car because of the single (useable) cup holder-unless I’m mistaken how that console flips up to expose the second cup holder. The console on the driver side makes the space look like a cockpit too. The rear legroom/headroom issue is a killer too. I may be biased because our Subaru has so much rear passenger room that I almost feel like I’m in a checker cab in the back seat🙄 SEAN’s review video was good.
I'm a two Tesla owner, $TSLA owner, and an Elon Fanboi, and not even I would say that Tesla is a 10. There is plenty of room for improvement for Tesla. Waypoints as an example. Neither of my cars have hand holds to help my father get out of my cars, so that's another improvement I'd like to see (Does the Y have 'em?) I'd give my 2013 S a solid "7" and my 2019 3 an easy "8" If the PoleStar gets a 6.5 based on that scale, it'll be a fine car for anybody to consider.
@@Johnny2Feathers lol. So the fact that Sandy just mentioned it, that you can find non-stop videos still showing all the issues they have to get fixed when they get the cars, and all the review sites continue to mention the issues means that it is totally fixed and it just 'gasping at straws'. Seriously, being a fanboy with blinders on only hurts the company you worship. If you don't raise your voice pointing out the remaining weaknesses along with the strengths you are doing nothing but encouraging them to keep cutting corners. Here is just one of the thousands of videos and comments you can find from within even the last 6 months about the fact that you have to plan to find and having them fix all the issues (including the still not good panel gap inconsistencies and paint issues). ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-CP0pR1M0-vo.html
18:55 “In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists.” ― Eric Hoffer
European EV reviewers are almost all male and mostly young. They all rave about the Polestar 2 body styling. I've come to the conclusion that there is an American bias to design. No surprise. There's a parochial prejudice. And it seems to me that it's a conservative bias. The Mach E body design seems old-fashioned muscle-car styling, kind of safe and predictable looking. Sandy is an engineering genius, but he drives a big gas-guzzling Wrangler and seems blinded to Tesla design by Tesla engineering, which is admittedly beyond outstanding. I consider Tesla design to be tasteful but kind of safe - perfect for the conservative American market.
American isn't necessarily conservative throughout the country, many parts are ultra progressive and people's tastes varies. Everyone thinks people in the USA drive pickup trucks, the reality is that pickup trucks aren't popular in cities but are very popular outside of cities. Crossovers and small SUVs are popular because they offer more room for families. There is a huge segment of drivers who love small sporty coupes of various designs..
I'm European and I completely disagree. I loathe the Polestar and VW styling - they've lost their way totally in my opinion. The Tesla model S especially is a timeless classic. Model 3 very good also. But let's face it, the old ICE guys have problems with EV transition that no amount of body redesigning can fix.
@@mamadouaziza2536 Tastes vary, of course. But a true "progressive" wouldn't buy a Tesla at all because Mr Elon is politically a sociopath. If you're going to tip cashiers, and I applaud that, think of the cashiers in Bolivia who were shot dead on the street by a coup government supported by the USA and approved of by Musk when he said "We'll Coup whoever we like." He just wanted his Bolivian Lithium at whatever cost, it seems.
@@enoughofthis Sure. I'm American, so I criticise my own - from outside the Big Bubble USA. I have a European bias re design because generally, their design is just better. Mass market cars are almost always bland - The VW ID.4 is made for the USA, so bland. The ID.3 isn't even sold in the US because Americans don't buy enough hatchbacks. Unless your a savvy Korean and you call a hatchback a crossover.
My Model 3 LR had a similar issue with the 12v system. 3 loaners, 2 months and 4 service center appointments later the problem was finally resolved. Wouldn't want anything else for my daily driver.
@@stickylightning852 Growing pains in the service center and a massive interest in Model 3's at the time. Idk, I got to drive a Model S P85D for a month :) :)
speculation: The 12V battery, just like the main pack, is part of a dual redundant system designed to supply all none HV electronics like the infotainment system, but also safety critical things like the braking system, airbags, door locks.. etc. with power at all times. Due to the extreme importance of some of the these subsystems (like the airbags), most manufacturers have software locked the system to always maintain redundancy. If the main pack fails, the vehicle wont drive (for obv reasons). but if the 12V fails, you'll still be able to drive, however you'd be one single point of faliure away from having a 2 ton rock rolling down the highway. No breaks, airbags, easy door unlock, power steering, ABE.. etc. This is why i think they immediately force you to pull over if the 12V hits the fan. Its a massive safety concern. Even if the chances of sustaning a main pack faliure would be incredably low, even a small colission in that state could result in total loss of power to the vehicle.
I love the 2021 EV offerings, but the charging infrastructures for Tesla competitors suck. Will there be a deep dive on why this is such a challenge? Thank You
Telsa has been developing their charging infrastructure for 10 Years, they sucked in the beginning too. Plus Telsa uses their own charging plug in the states and no the CCS standard. The rest of the industry has teething pains at this point as their just starting their build out.
@@bswens01 "The rest of the industry" had the option to use the Tesla system. They had the option to agree a totally uniform protocol separate to Tesla. It seems they did neither (despite the CCS working group) As for "teething troubles like Tesla"..... not exactly comparable. Tesla had no real FAST charge benchmark. If nothing else, the others now have (and always had) that benchmark. Just btw, the CCS standard was agreed in 2012 and the first CCS charger installed by VW in June 2013. They've had PLENTY of time. As the saying goes "It ain't rocket science"
Short answer is Tesla spent 2.1 + billion build there network the other want there's for free, remember this next time someone says make Tesla change the charging standard.
The funy thing is very few people understand a pretty basic aspect of the V1 and V2 superchargers (could be V3 too, I don't have the info): they are simplified Tesla invterters taken off the cars and dumbed down somewhat, as they don't need to actually control the speed of a motor. If you can imagine at the beginnings of the Model S, Tesla was building one extra inverter per car (say at a 1000$ cost), the cost being passed to the customer when the car was sold. A supercharger instalation needs some transformers, breakers and grid connections, but the charger itself was in a way already paid for. 4 phase AC 480V from the transformer regulated to whatever the battery pack's at, what device could do that? Yes, it's an inverter, just swap the motor (as a 400V AC generator) with the actual grid. Now, why doesn't everyone else do that? As far as I know, no one else does their own inverters (except maybe Porsche). Or at least not the hardware + software, some do the hardware. So VW has nothing to sell as a charger, nor Polestar or others. Wouldn't mindseing a V3Supercharger deep dive, but how would Sandy get one?
I remember Elon said in your interview with him that they considered a 48v battery but Tesla could not source any supplier of batteries & attendant parts for it at the volumes they needed. Maybe they are working on one?
@@alanhold2468 If you have to explain the joke, it's not a joke anymore........ "polestars"..... pole STARS i.e. strippers... Vegas is famous for it's high end strip clubs.
Why doesn't the Tesla screen inform you when the 12v battery is experiencing a problem. Then you can have it checked or replaced in a timely manner. I have a 2020 Tesla Model-Y LR w/FSD -- and this 12v battery problem really worries me 😟. I do NOT like the idea of being stranded somewhere.
Could the mere existence of that 12 Volt battery have to do with safety ? And if so, would using two 12 Volt batteries help to eliminate this single point of failure?
In an accident or battery fire, the main battery needs to be able to be disconnected, and the power windows and electric door locks still work. The Hawker Odyssey 12v lead acid battery is FAA approved as a helicopter main battery, is the choice for rally cars, and only needs to be charged every 2 years, and is the perfect choice as an evs 12v battery. Ocean going jetskis all use this battery.
The cars have big DC to DC converters to provide 12 vdc charging. The 12 vdc battery provides redundancy for critical functions. When Tesla's "sleep", the HVB contacters are open. The 12v powers everything and it's voltage is monitored and when low the car wakes up and the 12 v recharged. Tesla's now monitor how often that occurs and a message appears that the 12 v needs replacement soon when the interval becomes too short.
Sandy, can you do a episode on 12v and EVs? It seems to be a huge problem with every EV I’ve followed. User groups always have people having some mysterious breakdown, only to have it be the 12v. So, an episode with 1) why are 12vs such a problem with EVs and not ICEs? Why do they often quit without warning? Would a cordoned off portion of the main battery work? Does that have disadvantages? Like reduced range? Are there other options?
In teslas the batteries failed after a couple of years so that was just the battery wearing out. This is a new car, that has not been on the road for more than a few months, so there is an issue with the car or battery to an extreme. We have had our model 3 for over 2 years, 50k miles and no issues. I decided to go ahead and replace the battery proactively with an ohmmu. Any ice car owner should be replacing their 12v battery after a few years or have it tested and never have to be stranded with a battery failure. This is something everyone should have done and should be doing. That is the fault of the owner and not the battery for not being attentive and doing maintenance in a timely fashion. Again, this polestar is a new car and there is something else going on or at fault beyond the owners control.
Recently, Tesla is transition to Li-ion 12v in S and X. I think that's way to go. It'll has same life cycle as main pack so you shouldn't have to change it for a life of a car.
@@mukamuka0 I do wonder why an EV couldn't use hardware to lower drive battery voltage to electric system lower voltage. We plug our power converters into 120 and 240 AC lines to provide low voltage DC for our devices.
@@bobwallace9753 Efficiency problem. It's take a lot of system to safely run large main battery pack, temp control, cooling pump, BMS, CPU. You don't want to use it for a little things like cabin light, or you're going to waste a lot of energy. So, engineer solved this by have smaller battery, which required no upkeep, for small tasks. It's even more strictly in the past when Tesla car only charge 12v battery when the car is running (to avoid inefficiency) but it will be drained when the car is parked for long time, So today they've to wake the car up from time to time to charge 12v battery if car was parked for a long time.
@@mukamuka0 I'm not seeing a hit on efficiency. Power has to come from the outside, it's a question of where it gets stored. If Tesla is charging the 12v when running then that charge is coming from either the car's battery pack or from regenerative braking, energy which would otherwise be going to the battery pack. Parked a long time. Using the battery pack would eliminate the wake up problem unless the vampire load was so high and the car parked so low that the massive battery pack was discharged by the sort of stuff that sits waiting for someone to want the door opened. That sounds like years to me. If you want to start an ICEV that has been sitting for years you need to do stuff like drain and refill the gas tank. Remove the spark plugs, put some light oil in the cylinders, and spin the engine with the plugs removed. Etc.
Nope. It is because thebattery was rubbish. Not true. The Hawker Odyssey 12v lead acid battery is FAA approved as a helicopter main battery, is the choice for rally cars, and only needs to be charged every 2 years, and is the perfect choice as an evs 12v battery. Ocean going jetskis all use this battery.
Good report, thanks. Dan’s sound had too much of the bad room acoustics in the microphone. Something wasn’t right. Was the built-in mike also selected? Maybe he needs to use a directional body mike.
Sean is pro-Tesla, this got in the way of creating a more thorough and helpful review. The Polestar has a lot to offer and up until now has given the Tesla 3 a real competitor..
I wonder if the 12v system error message is the same that drivers of LEVC (Geely) plug in hybrid London Black Taxis get. The Polstar seems to share the same steering wheel, dash, stalks, on/off switch and gear selector as the taxi so it might have similar ecu and software issues. When I got this message I spoke to the LEVC dealer and was told to try a soft reset which is to turn off and lock the vehicle and leave it for 5-10 minutes until it has completely shut down and then restart to see if the message has gone. Or if that didn't work a hard (or 10mm) reset is needed which involved removing the negative lead from the 12v battery using a 10mm spanner and waiting until the dash completely shut down and then reconnect the battery lead and restart as normal. These will usually fix the error message as it seems to be as software fault but if the message is still there or comes back a visit to the dealer is needed.
Heya Crew at Munro: Give this message to Sandy: The reason the 12V subsystem is needed is because of the High Voltage contactors. That's why the HV pack can't control the 12V directly. (If the contactor can't be turned off it would be bad for emergency workers, etc.)
@@Steph1 high voltage contactor is basically an electrically-activated switch that connects and disconnects the high voltage battery from the car. It gets switched off when the car is parked/off for safety reasons. You need a source of power to control the contactor outside of the high-voltage battery. That’s mainly why you need a 12V car battery in EVs.
@@lemongavine why not put the contactor on the battery side then? seems like that would fix all the issues? (i am NOT an engineer, just a curiosity question)
@@dragonpc8258 I guess because they need to fully disconnect the high voltage battery. Once disconnected, you can’t use it to turn itself on. Also, you need 12V battery to actuate the door locks. Tesla had talked about a possible solution to this problem. It was supposed to be on the Model Y. It hasn’t happened yet nor have I heard anything recently from them.
There are simple solutions to this problem, for instance when the vehicle is running one of the 120VAC outlets can power a simple battery minder (trickle charger) to keep the battery topped off. If the vehicle is stored for a lengthy period of time, plug the battery tender into an external 120VAC outlet. I'm amazed the design engineers haven't designed a fail safe method of maintaining the 12 VDC battery.
Sandy: Have you reviewed the Ohmmu 12v Li battery? I recently pre-emptively replaced my Sept 2018 M3P battery at 24k miles with an Ohmmu. It’s supposed to be much better for the use/charge cycles of an EV. I’d love to see your take on this.
Sandy, I hear you on the fairness of striking down Tesla scores due to panel gaps inconsistency and inferior paintshop quality. When creating your new ratings metric. All I'd ask is that you also compare Tesla's superior underbody castings that cut down on the quality issues other manufacturers face when dealing with many pieces and their varoius seams. Every seam where 2 metals are joined introduces the possibility of durability problems, alignments issues, gaps that can cause whistling etc. Superior panel gaps and paint jobs should be an area for comparison between Tesla's and other cars, but so too should stamped steel underbodies now be compared to Tesla's clean and consistent underbody castings with fewer join issues. That's all, keep up the good work brother.
@@lltv8142 They already use an isolated dc-dc converter in most EV's. Not sure if any use a fly buck. This is outside the battery and so the contactor has to close before it operates. Putting it inside the battery would allow it to never turn off but then it's draining the battery all the time and any attempt to allow it to shut off would then need a solution to restart it. Maybe the Ioniq hybrid has some kind of weirdness like that?
I agree it looks like a rounded blob of a car with nothing but aerodynamic efficiency in focus. The only tesla that looks good IMO is the model S. I really like the looks of the Polestar though, looks really muscular! Like the fastbacks of the 70's.
I think the ID wakes at night and checks if 12V battery needs to be charged by the traction battery. They had some circumstances where some components did not go to sleep and sucked the battery empty so it would not start in the morning.
All the EVs do this self-12v charging. Issue is causing/detecting failures in that 12v battery... and actually, Taycans are having current NHTSA investigation for roadside shutdowns, just like this Polestar.. insideevs.com/news/508890/nhtsa-investigation-taycan-power-loss/
I don't think a battery failure problem after a car has only been out for a few months does not paint a picture for build or design quality. Teslas 12v battery failures took place after 2 years or so or longer as a result of the battery wear. So you do proper maintenance, checks and replacement.
Even the car, with all its sophisticated electronics, isn't diagnosing a problem with a stupidly simple 12V battery until the car is about to die, if it even does then. That's the problem.
My vw passat had a valve issue on the air intake, it got in to cold air freezing the carburator. leading to loss of power and almost being rear ended by a truck. So... Not exclusively an ev problem.
Very good discussion on Polestar and Tesla, if the USA is giving away EV credits of 12k eventually and Mustang Mach E doesn't qualify nor would the Polestar. So USA made will get the EV credit, so TSLA still wins even with the additional competition.
I'm going to go ahead and solve the worlds 12V battery failure problem Sandy Munro: build a little solar panel into the car's roof, hood, or even on the dashboard or rear of the car - that is a trickle charger for a 12V Lithium Ion battery...and with a sensor that shuts off when the battery is 90% full; the reality is that a small solar panel and current tech can't extend range by very much - but it could power the hell out of some fans and a radio and some LEDs!
My Tesla Model 3 does not even need the 12V battery after the contactors are closed. There is no reason why the car should shutdown (when the contactors are closed) unless there is a short on the 12V bus (which could be from a shorted 12V battery), the 12V DC-to-DC converter is defective or something else on the 12V bus is causing an issue. Now if the contactors are open (the car is in sleep state) and the 12V battery is low/dead, then you are stranded. I have removed the negative 12V battery cable while the car was awake and the car was totally functional and drivable just had a 12V battery on screen error message. It is entirely possible the Polestar 2 functions in a different way?
The 12 volt battery is a HUGE issue. I have had Ford C max and Focus EV both with HV batteries become a brick with NO notice or obvious cause due to 12 vt battery problems. I bought lithium jumper pack in both and use them often. What century is this?
if the vehicle dies on me on the one day that I am renting it, I am giving it zero out of ten. Nothing matters if the car doesn't get you to where you need to go.
12V battery issues go back at least to the classic Toyota RAV4-EVs of 1997-2003. 12V needs to be in tip-top shape or better for everything to work right. Traction battery charges 12V when online during operation or charging, but not in between.
12volt battery I heard was a "man with flag" style regulation for safety and reliability. After all 12V components can be run from a 12v tapping or step down. Instead of allowing new technology to develope appropriate safety solutions it has been decried that EVs has a familiar prehistoric lead acid battery so that they can break down at high speed for no sensible reason. It is probably the safety bodies we need to persuade, not the car manufacturers.
I heard (RU-vid video) a year ago that Tesla was changing to a LiFePo “Lithium “ battery with BMS instead of “lead acid” battery. 12volts “lead acid” battery is required by American law. ICE car owners have switched to “Lithium” battery (with BMS) for “maintenance free” from sulfated battery ( high internal resistance).
The 12V battery failure issue is entirely avoidable. You just need a step-down inverter from the main battery and diode OR it with the lead acid 12V battery. Inexpensive, simple to do and it'll fix the problem ! You can even prioritise certain circuits, so there's no need for the vehicle computer to stop doing its stuff EVER. I'd consider the infotainment to be a non-priority circuit as well as any power hungry self-driving nonsense.
I don't understand the statement 'Polestar' style doesn't stand out - this car stands out in all colours and is so eye-catching on the road. Since it was a new brand back in 2020, many people including me were struck by the design by spotting it on the road and tried to google what car this was. I like all three car designs - Mach-E is masculine, P2 is handsome, Tesla is sexy - but P2 as a 'plain' car is such an aesthetic minority opinion.
Personally I like the design of the P2 more than Tesla at least compared to Model 3, Model S is better, I think it might be a region-specific thing as well? The Tesla just looks out of place, not in a positive sense, it's more "silly/weird" than beautiful IMHO.
It would be interesting to time travel 50 years into the future just to see if Tesla was able to maintain market lead and avoid pitfalls other major brands made mistakes with (sleeping on the competition/Blackberry comes to mind).
I think different people are going to rate various attributes of vehicles differently. Personally, build quality and NVH are important to me, especially if I'm paying north of 40 grand for a car. Also, call me old fashioned, but I'd rather have instrumentation in front of me rather than forcing me to look to the side. I'm surprised Polestar went with the twist beam though? I wonder how that affects ride and handling compared to Tesla.
The polestar 2 has a better CD value than the Mustang Mach E (0.278 vs 0.3) The real difference between the polestar 2 and the Tesla is the battery and battery management (possibly the motors)
Its not functional when it comes to space in the boot. I think the model 3 looks alot like a toad - its too low in the front. Don't like it - the Polestar is aggressive looking in my opinion. The Polestar 2 is also more practical.
Its kind of hard to believe it about the 12V battery being such a common problem. With all the configuring that's done with EVs to manage the charge rate of the pack yet they don't seem to be able to rig up a good old 12V regulator and some diodes, so that it trickle-charges via some hardware. My guess is that there is software involved where it really shouldn't be... and of course software screws up after a while and needs resetting.
48 volt components. What an opportunity for an auto supplier with a vision.! Sandy has heard of 12v battery issues with VWs [ouch] and others. My ID.3 has thankfully had a software update which makes sure that the 12v battery is properly charged. And hey, thank you Sean, on the looks of the Polestar 2. I was beginning to think I was the only one. It doesn't do anything for me either, except that the overall vague shape, from a distance, looks more like a Saab than a Volvo. I've owned a couple of Saab 900s in the past. One, a 16v turbo. Ironically, my ID.3 has something like the get-up-and-go of my old Saab 16v Turbo, but without a trace of drama or turbo needle flying around its dial. 😀
It's a chicken and egg problem. Who would buy the products in a large enough number to support manufacturing them? Who's going to design for 48v components if no one is making (affordable) 48v components. Tesla should reach critical mass stage within short years at which they could contract enough 48v 'stuff' to kick things off. I never thought about it previously, but my RX7 had a 24 volt system. How did Mazda deal with component supply? Did they do a voltage reduction aside from the starter motor?
@@ramblerandy2397 Now that you say that I seem to remember knowing that at one time. If they do then there's the source of things like 24 VDC light bulbs.
@@bobwallace9753 Yep. I decided to look it up. Many trucks/lorries, buses and most military vehicles use 24v. So 48v is not some great paradigm shift. A supplier or suppliers have to look to the future. One would think that there are conversations going on between companies, at least.
@@ramblerandy2397 I can buy a convert that turns 24vdc or 120vac into 12vdc for about $20 retail. Bought in bulk, wholesale, I would think the cost much less. I've got a 'smart' converter in my solar panel system that turns 96vdc into 48vdc and prevents overcharging the battery. It's not very big and didn't cost very much. Why aren't we seeing battery pack DC converted into 12vdc rather than using a separate 12 volt battery? Why bother with a separate battery? Use a converter. Save the cost of the separate battery and be able to access the largest supply of parts which is 12vdc.
VW have had a lot of issues with the 12v batteries, and that they give up and don't charge properly. Being lead acid I guess that will cost a pretty penny for VW, if that is broken?
There's a recall for this issue. Here in Sweden it has been all over the news. There's another recall as well for P2, that also got a ton of attention. Tesla owners of Sweden said "Get a Polestar - comes with free towing!"
An EV requires a secondary battery because the 800V or 800 V battery is isolated when the vehicle is turned off. The secondary battery provides power to activate the contactors and for auxiliary systems. But modern cars should be equipped with 48V systems and use LI batteries to power them. That would allow for lighter wiring and a greater variety of auxiliary equipment. LeadLed-Acid 12V systems have no place in a modern car.
Not true. The Hawker Odyssey 12v lead acid battery is FAA approved as a helicopter main battery, is the choice for rally cars, and only needs to be charged every 2 years, and is the perfect choice as an evs 12v battery. Ocean going jetskis all use this battery.
Design is subjective for most part, yes. But Tesla design being striking? The short and low hood looks weird, proportions are off. Polestar on the other hand is very clean with nice proportions, maybe not the most interesting design. But it's also a car for all people and not just tech nerds.
“In times of change learners inherit the earth; while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists.” ~ Eric Hoffer
