Yeah exactly. It’s their job. If the surveyor can just make mistakes and don’t be held liable they can just take shortcuts to speed up jobs to get on to the next one and make more money. A bad apple or big mistake should have consequences, to keep up the industry’s standards. These kinds of stories stain the reputation of the industry. And make more people hesitant to get into narrowboating…
Would you rather have no survey at all or have a survey they may well find something wrong???? Of course, a surveyor can't be held liable for their inspection. They will do their absolute best, but are you telling me you expect them to check every single inch of the boat???? OK thats fine but your survey will now cost 20K....... you asked for it so don't complain.
Lewis... You might reasonably expect a surveyor to find the obvious. Older, steel boats are prone to common defects. Even these don’t appear to have been checked. One of these is hull thickness deterioration and pitting. Reputable surveyors will take responsibility for their work, at least until the next scheduled dry-docking. If building surveyors can be held responsible, why not marine surveyors? I wish her luck in her challenge for restitution and her future life on the cut.
As I have discovered there is a huge difference between the quality of marine surveyors . Don’t rely on seller’s survey and only go by personal recommendation .
David went full on reporter mode for this one, and provided a fantastic example of investigative journalism,well shot, good audio, good camera angles, perfect editing,(and he's on his own,making that content for us)and yeah he's making a point, a narrow boat isn't for most people,but the amount of work he has to put into a video like this deserves respect.
I don't see the utility of a survey if -- forgive me -- if there's no liability for a bad survey. What is the point of it if you can't rely on it? If one is basing a huge financial outlay onan expert opinion that's paid for you should be able to sue the fella for messing up the survey.
I sold a home thirty years ago, and the buyer hired an inspector, but all the fellow did while he was there was stand in my kitchen shooting the breeze with me, and enjoying a refreshing drink. After that he said " I don't see anything wrong with your lovely home." , and went on his way.
I don’t know UK law, but in the US there is a statue of limitations for this sort of thing. A bad survey that is caught within a year is different than one that gets caught after 3 years, as far as liability is concerned. (I’m not saying that is morally okay, but it is the way the law is written.)
exactly. Whats stopping me from pretending to be a surveyor and taking someones money when I have no clue what am i talking about. If the surveyor tells you that the boat is fine,and it sinks,i hope youd be able to sue his ass off for the entires boat worth.
David, you might pass on to Jenny that a quicker and cheaper fix would be to wrap the hull in a fiberglass shell. A wrap up to the gunnels could be done over a month in warmer weather or just tenting the boat and doing it sooner would save her thousands. Our 78 year old tug was like a chef's sifter after we scraped and exposed the metal. As we were on a shoestring budget, our options were to scrap, cut and replace the steel, or the alternative, wrap the hull in a fiberglass tub. We chose the latter. We spent approximately 1/8th the cost of just the steel for a completely new hull. Was it worth it? Were we her age and as ambitious, yes, the wrap would be the best alternative.
Hi David Thank you for highlighting Jenny's plight. I am sure that virtually all boaters will agree that we all have that squidgy feeling when we buy, having to rely on a surveyor (the Surveyor's Prayer: When she sinks, may she sink DEEP!) for his/her knowledge and expertise. I, for one, am happy to donate to her directly and I hope that your platform will encourage others to do the same. Jonathan
Thank you for being a gentleman and friend to a fellow boater. It’s acts of kindness like this that make our community so welcoming and special. Good luck to Jenny.
Jenny sounds like a nice person. You hear these stories where people are sold lemons. I wish her all the best and will definitely buy some of her products. Thanks David for doing this vid.
Thanks for lending her a few minutes on RU-vid. I pitched in a tenner. I think that's what you call it. I subscribed to boot! Good on all y'all that helped her out.
Finally, i can see an advantage to being in the u.s. Our country is so litigious that were she here, she could have sued the surveyor, the previous owner, all other boat owners and everybody who knows how to spell boat before she even bought it. I hope Jenny gets to float again soon.
This nearly happened to me and my husband last year. We fell in love with a boat, but refused to pay until we had a surveyor. We had to travel up the Thames to get a survey and thankfully we had a really good surveyor that told us it was good only for scrap. The plating was so thin under the engine, that if we hit a log whilst travelling there, we may not be here anymore. We paid for our survey and ran.
There's and old saying in the US that holds true. The two happiest days in a boatowners life is the day he buys the boat, and the day he gets rid of the boat.
Well done David for putting this together, giving her a platform and exposing an issue that any prospective boat purchaser needs to take heed of. All surveyors should have indemnity insurance and it appears that is confirmed in this case. Many of the costs the young lady was talking about at the end of the video should be covered,at least in good part (and she might do better than that if she had an independent lawyer to give her advice). I hope she achieves an equitable settlement which should be to put her back where she was financially prior to the purchase (on the basis that she would not have bought it had she been informed of the true material state) plus her expenditure improvements plus the work and time on the hard and the overplating - minus a reasonable figure for her 3 years enjoyment of the boat. I wish her good luck.
I have huge respect for Jenny, to share her story as a caution to other prospective boaters. As with others, I hope she wins in court and the 'surveyor' is drummed out of the business--also, that he learns a life lesson of his own and does better in the future.
I hate how often the insurance companies get away with not paying for things that they swear they cover up front. When we bought our second home we had buyer insurance and it refused to cover a leak in the roof despite the fact that the previous owners had rigged up plastic piping to catch the leak and reroute it to drain through the balcony ceiling. Part of the process was that they sent an inspector who measured for signs of moisture infiltration.... 6 weeks after any rain had fallen. He obviously found nothing and they said 'no sign of an active leak'. It was surreal. We were able to force them to pay for some electrical work but only because we found hidden documentation that the fault was known by the sellers and not disclosed as legally required - they still fought it for months though.
There is an important lesson here that applies to all surveys. Instruct the surveyor, who is after all in your pay, that you will accompany them for the duration of the survey. In my experience some refuse and I then refuse to use them. I believe they are more thorough with you present and it also allows you to discuss a problem with it in front of you. There are downsides, you cannot claim ignorance, you were there, but your plan is to avoid problems in the first place.
That's great if you know alot about boat surveying. But you're hiring an expert because you're not an expert, so you trust that the surveyor knows more than you. Seems like the surveyor should be bonded so you're covered if the surveyor botches his job.
This was perfectly timed, David. Perhaps now, a few weeks before Christmas, more people feel inclined to do some good and help Jenny to get her boat back in the water.
If it can be temporarily plugged and moved away from the home counties then it would be around £100 a month for hard standing (North Kilworth Marina charge 50p per foot per week) and overplating little more than half the £20,000 mentioned. Try Pete Gilbert at Charity Dock on the Coventry Canal for a quote, he's both good and cheap for narrowboat work.
So sorry to see this happen and hope Jenny gets it resolved soon. ❤ the gift ideas, on her website are great, they arrived beautifully wrapped, the rose candles smell lovely and the earring are wonderful too.
I will look although not much cash left after Christmas which has been rather stressful as my son got covid19 and I spent lots of money on food that hasn’t been eaten sitting in fridge…. But if purchasing a few candles etc helps 😊
This crap happens all the time. Marine surveyors are as sketchy as home inspectors. There is often no way to hold them accountable. I hope she wins. I have purchased many boats over the years. I used to encourage the surveyors to hurry. Not anymore. If the surveyor doesn't take at least 200 photos I'm asking questions.
There really should be some kind of certification process for surveyors like this. At least something that holds them accountable for gross negligence or incompetence.
@@raezzordaze8021 absolutely agree, boat owners rely on these clowns to spot anything that could potentially ruin their lives financially. Boat owners should have recourse if the inspector made mistakes or was just bone idle, they cost enough in the first place
In the USA we have “bonded” professionals in most every field. From tree services to home builders I always recommend going with a “bonded” agency. I’m hoping for a happy outcome for her.
I was glad to hear Jenny got the legal cover insurance package. That's at least something, because the whole time up to that I was thinking, how does she sue that first surveyor and would the new surveyor back up her complaint. Narrowboating may be a niche way of life in Britain, but I bet many have been misled by home inspectors and have similar worries all over the world.
I had an almost exact situation with a keel boat that i purchased....the surveyor gave it glowing comments and recommended purchase "a bargain at that price". subsequently, the yard found over $100,000 of structural defects not detected or ignored by the surveyor. I sued and was successful.....but the stress and anxiety made me hate the boat and as soon as it was repaired, I sold it . the new owners sailed it around the world. Sometimes buyer beware is not enough.....be careful out there.
Wonderful that people have responded to this so generously, and it's just a nice thing to see in my RU-vid suggestions of a morning! A cautionary tale I suppose, but also a good deed done for someone who suffered the effects of other people's lack of care.
Feel so bad for the lady. Almost as soon as the story started i thought "Sue the Surveyor!" - glad she has legal support and someone now fighting on her side,👏🏻👏🏻
new plating over an rotten bottem is crappy practice, old bottomplates need to be cut out, so you can weld fresh steel directly to the ribs , assuming the ribs are ok , welder and barge owner for 40 years
Good - someone who knows his stuff! I would have a survey done if I were buying a boat (for price negotiations as much as to know if it would sink the minute I tried to take it out!) - you kind of have to if you don't know the first thing about boats, other than: "Boat goes in water" :D ^^
yes as u know probably the best and then ok for 30 or 40 years ive seen concrete put in the bilges instead of ballast over a rotten hull six inches of conc and that was thirtty years ago with new stronger bearers and re bar interlocked there is not much left of the old hull left now after thirty years no leaks or cracks in the concrete have you ever seen it before ? we wonder if the boat will last another twenty years or have to be plated or rip conc out and put new in
Its sad to see anyone in this situation. She is doing the right thing going after the surveyor. This is his profession and should be held accountable for the recommendations that he is paid to provide.
I believe steel boats rust away from the inside. Double plating is not a long term solution. The gap between the two plates causes more corrosion issues. You would think a 10 mm bottom plate sitting in fresh water would last a hundred years, but alas, was not to be.
Jenny has all my sympathy: that truly sucks. That said, 250 a month is still way cheaper than rent, and 20,000, though horrendous, is fairly standard for doing up a flat/house. In the end, she'll have a lovely boat, that's been done properly, and she'll have saved a boat for the world. And eventually (a long way down the road), the surveyor's insuruer will have to pay out, and she'll ultimately get her cash back. Stay strong, Jenny!
It's not relevant what doing up a house or flat may or may not cost. She owns a boat, not a house, and if she pays 20,000 for repairs then that's 20,000 she's out of pocket. She bought a boat, which she presumably paid market value for, and is now having to pay 20 grand to fix defects that she should not have to.
Very very sorry for her I had a similar surveyor when buying a house but thank God I pulled out But it's not her fault as she said had a professional person who she thought could trust. Hope the insurance pays out
It's actually a shame that everyone who she's having to deal with feels the need to charge premium pricing for any service they're providing, knowing her situation. That goes for everyone from the over plating company to the storage facility....we're not talking large corporations run by shareholders, these are small companies. I grew up around family owned business people, anyone can offer help if they wish, regardless what their profession, position in a company, or moral compass. A search engine is a powerful weapon in this day and age. Companies can literally be found with a few clicks, and couple minutes of research.....And the entire world can find something out in an instant today....two big thumbs up for sharing this. The simplest deed outweighs the greatest intention.
thickness testing is a small part of my job as a NDT tech. it takes very little time to learn how to do and a proper survey of an area that size would take about an hour AFTER CLEANING, which MUST be done before test can happen. IF the report states that UT thickness testing was carried out the surveyor's insurance must surely pay as no evidence of cleaning (inspection patches that Jenny mentions) PROVES that unless done from the inside of the boat (where hull is inaccessible) no ultrasonic testing could possibly have occurred..(the sound waves used to perform the inspection simply cannot pass effectively through corrosion, mud air etc).
Thanks for raising this issue. I hope it helps her to get this problem resolved quickly. It would be nice to have an update because I’m sure lots of us want to help.
Every new boater's nightmare. Poor girl :(. A bit lucky the issue was found in the dry dock though, it could have been much worse. Steel thickness is an issue in these old boats. I'd be inclined to sell it for what you can and buy different one. 20k for overplating (not a fan) seems a bit much when you could buy an alright boat in decent condition for 30k or so. Hope she is able to enjoy boating again soon.
This is terrible 😔. Jenny seems like a nice person. Nobody wants to see bad things happen to good people. The original surveyor should have to pay all of her expenses.
As our very honest David has shown over the years, the never ending war with rust on narrow boats is very real. What you can see is very much the tip of the ice burg. Jenny's story should be an eye opener for anyone thinking of parting with large sums of money for 15-20 year old boats. We've only ever had a brand new sail away hull that we fitted out ourselves, but in todays market people are paying £50k plus for some pretty old boats. A professional surveyor should never recommend a boat purchase, only state the facts. Be cautious of the relationships between brokerages and surveyors. Boats are not like buying land and property, boats are a depreciating dissolving tin can that break down and require continuous maintenance/repairs. It is a wonderful world cruising the cut, but buyers beware!
Out of curiosity, what good is a surveyor if they aren't implicitly recommending a boat? It seems the whole thing is about having a professional assess and endorse the condition of the vessel? What am I missing?
How strange - i click a random video that youtube suggest and I see Jenny, who I went to Uni with! Sad to hear this story, must be heartbreaking :( especially went you’ve done your due diligence!
Normaly the line is “Never feel bad for someone who owns a boat.” But this is one of those exceptions. I had a similar thing happen when I bought an airplane. The pre-by inspection did not reveal some significant damage that cost a pretty penny to repair.
Brand new complete shell 50' from Collingwood is the same price as her repairs, though moving all the personalized bits and the "fitments" would add to the cost, but i think the difference would be worthwhile.
This highlights the role of the Canal and River Trust, they claim responsibility for boat licencing which is very, very expensive, why arent they keeping a listing of reliable surveyors? Why arent they campaining for a clear legal framework on liability when purchasing a boat or insuring a boat for that matter? The more protections in place for a new boater the better, who else is going to do this 🤷🏻♂️
Great piece of video reportage, David, worthy of any pro broadcaster. The facts, the human interest, delivered as a cautionary tale for any would-be boaters, floaters, and “let’s live remote-rs..!” In these independent aspirational times, we still remember “Caveat emptor”… buyer beware… Be careful how dreams might veil needs to spot a plain truth. I feel for the lady, it might have gone so much better for Jenny’s live aboard life if she’d gone that crucial stage further on the initial buying survey… two independent surveys might have revealed something was really wrong. It’s easy for me to say, though, with hindsight as 20/20 vision, I know! We could all so easily cop the same errors. Best of luck with your next venture. Don’t lose heart, people will feel for you, and respond, I’m sure.
Wow! This is scary as most ppl would have heeded the advice of the first surveyor and bought the boat. I know I had my eyes opened when I bought a house, conditional on it passing a home inspection, and my realtor said he used different inspectors depending on whether he was representing the seller or the buyer. If he was representing the buyer, he’d get a really picky, tough inspector. And I thought all inspectors were the same 🤷♀️
This is so sad, it seems to happen a fair bit, we bought a boat and the surveyor missed soft floors. He just ignored correpondance on the subject. These people get a very good fee and should do it right. Will admit our surveyor did take around 100+ readings at bare metal all documented on paper and digital media as that's were I wanted a specific set of detail. I also witnessed the readings in person. Goes to show you do the right thing and it can still go wrong. The stress must be awfully as it's her home. Wish your friend all the best and hope she also gets the storage costs back and afloat soon. She should not be out of pocket.
Find a surveyor who does ultrasonic thickness testing. I don't know how professional surveyors do it, but I would expect the surveyor to make a grid covering the entire hull and measure the thickness at each point, marking it on the hull. You should take pictures of the hull with markings. Better yet, the pictures should be part of a signed and dated report by the surveyor.
I’ve yet to find a marine surveyor who’s been any good. Having been around boats most of my life I really believe that I can survey a boat (Glass fibre, or steel, but perhaps not wood ) as well as most surveyors. And when surveyed their reports are usually padded with meaningless bumf!. The big problem is that in Australia it’s mandatory to have a boat surveyed before any chance of insurance, and without insurance you can’t enter most marinas or slip the boat, an awful catch 22 situation
It's far too easy for someone to go out and buy an ultrasonic thickness meter and class themselves as knowledgeable, Iv'e worked in non destructive testing all my life, and often wondered as to what extent marine surveyors carry out hull integrity checks. You'r literally checking the condition of someones home. To do there job properly all obvious corrosion needs removing by blasting, then at least check in a grid formation as stated, but a full phased array corrosion scan would give a result you can hang your hat on - rather than play an expensive game of battleships hoping you find the thin bit. My heart goes out to her
Mate of mine builds boats, just had a cuppa with him, said it is quite common unfortunately. But if voices are censored, then it stays beneath the radar.
I used to live aboard my 55' NB. The surveyor didn't realise that the previous owner had broken the prop shaft and it was effectively 'working' on a interference fit. It went phut leaving the yard and was immediately craned out again. The surveyor said it wasn't something they would check. It's a bloody minefield isn't it. Over-plating is a good option, and I'd shop around once you've sorted the legals out. It really shouldn't be 30k though. There was a brilliant guy in Northwich. Good luck and I hope you are sorted out soon ❤️
That's a really nice thing you did to help her. It shows a lot about your character. I really hope this works out and we can see her cruising past your boat before too long.
Because you have the report in writing from the surveyor, he should be legally accountable up to a point, especially as he didn't actually physically examine the hull correctly.
There is no single independent governing or regulatory body covering marine surveyors. In effect this means that literally any old body can set themselves up as a specialist and start dishing out advice. If they are members of one of 2 bodies, the International Institute of Marine Surveyors or the Yacht Designers and Surveyors Association it very loose oversight and more about providing Professional Indemnity insurance than close oversight of members. You can be a member of either organisation and not have formal qualifications i believe (though the offer training). Fighting someone with Professional Indemnity insurance, especially in British courts is a very deep pocketed undertaking she could easily put in twice the 30 grand with no assurance she wins the case. Best hope is the surveyors' Indemnity insurance firm see it will cost more to fight than just pay out and this never goes near a court room.
We got stung by a bad surveyor in Northampton. The first survey he gave us had so many contradictions it was obvious he had copied at least 2 other survey details as a "template". In short, as he was accredited we were able to get the money paid back and paid a highly recommended surveyor. I consider us lucky in comparison but it can be an absolute minefield. I'd be interested in who she used.
David, that was not nice viewing and at the same time it was a very worthwhile piece of work. Feel so sorry for young Jenny and I could have been in very similar situation (but on land) had Direct Line not been good to their policy. I, like many others I'm sure, will be popping over to her website to support her as we can.
If you’d like to donate to Jenny directly, see www.floatmyboatdesigns.co.uk/about-fmb (scroll to the bottom) Or if you’d like to donate to Jenny directly, see gofund.me/29939d6d
@@markjones4704 now probably isn't the time to point a blaming finger at the poor lady and what's her age if it was stated got to do with the situation? It must be tough being so perfect. Regards.
The people you purchased it from should be ashamed of themselves as well, my boat is over 30 years old and had a incredible amount of work done to the Hull thankfully, no problems yet but your situation worries me, I don't have much to offer you other than my van tools time and a willingness to work free of charge if you need any jobs doing please message, Steve & Lilly
Have I got this right? The first surveyor said this would be a good buy, subject to completion of the pit welds and blacking etc. that he detailed in his report. Then they purchased the vessel. Did any of that get taken care of? Seems to me 3 years later one would expect there to be a few holes if none of that work was done. Really sweet gal, hope she got back out on the water again. Life ain't boring as long as your bailing. Just keep her upright and you'll keep sailing
Hi from Oz, that is such a sad story, the poor girl has done everything the right way to get her dream & this happens to her. Surely, surely she will be reimbursed her costs to date & the repairs covered by insurance. Please keep us up to date.
If there's one thing I've learned in a lifetime of mistakes, it's 'Always listen to your gut' I'm sorry she was so badly duped, she seems like a lovely girl and I really hope that all this has been resolved in her favour since this video was uploaded
I've just received my box of Float My Boat products which will make brilliant presents for my loved ones... it was money well spent. Of course, other suppliers of gifts and opinions are available :-)
Very sad to hear this happened to Jenny. Surveyors here in Canada are hit and miss as well with some very good ones and some that should never be allowed to survey a boat (based on personal experience). We will check out Jenny's website.
Disgusted? At a guess, it came down to two things: The business had other clients booked for that space, and the woman - who (understandably) feels that a £250 per month storage fee is a burden - probably wouldn't want to pay what a working boat yard would have to charge (which could end up being thousands per month instead of £250). It's not like you telling your friend that he can sleep on your couch for a few days. Imagine for a moment that you own a vehicle repair facility, a garage with two bays. The business is your livelihood, and also the livelihood of an employee (or two). And that, instead of sleeping on your couch for a few days, the person wants to park a vehicle in one of your garage bays - and not just for a few days, but possibly for a few months.
I have no doubt that the first yard had installed a large motorised pump to take care of reasonable leaks as they monitored the inrush of water, and knew it could be taken care of for the time it took to get to another yard...
She needs a call out for volunteers welders steel company and friends to get her done. It should be the British spirit to help this woman who got done in
had a similar experience, was a nightmare . Had to have it wrapped the steel hull with fiberglass ( got scammed in that process as well) and then got rid of it .. Good luck to you !!
I'm so sorry to hear this story, especially as Jenny has been as responsible as she possibly can. It was just bloody bad luck and I hope you have success with the surveyed. I would have thought you could have got your extra costs off them too, ie the hard standing fees minus the fee you would have had to pay for a marina or parking it where you normally did.
Once upon a time, I bought a very old and very rusty VW Van. As I drove it home, going up a hill, the engine stalled. So naturally I put on the brakes, which immediately failed. I tried the parking brake and its cables broke. With no brakes, the car slowly (in gear) rolled back down the hill, across a busy road without incident, and stopped gently against a guard rail. I had it towed home, and after looking at it for several weeks, I had it towed to a scrap yard. The end.
To the people who say 'learn how to weld' it is not that easy. I taught myself mig welding and did extensive repairs on a car (new floor etc). Not difficult for an individual and in a chassis vehicle not dangerous. With a boat you are looking at several people with lifting equipment on very large sheets of heavy steel, and holding in place. Then stick or maybe tig welding to a standard where there are no pinholes and all seams would hold for years. Not sure I would want to try that. The cost is due to the size and work in handling the sheets. The welds themselves have to be consistently good and some warranty given. That will cost.
It's past saving. You need good metal to weld too. It will all need cutting out and then hopefully the stringers will be ok. People happily scrap cars when they come to end of life, but not narrowboats. They have a life span and anything over 30 years nowadays is just a high risk of losing your money because it is dissolving all the time. Hiding the rot with over plating is just that. The metal to the frame behind is still dissolving.
Ouch! I feel for her, she did things the right way and got burned. She seems to have an upbeat attitude at least. Please follow up on this when or if it gets resolved. Thank you.
Can't be done legally. There has to be legal decision before name and shame. A friend of mine felt a house builder created a situation while building his new house.:flooding in basement. The builder sued a subcontractor, etc. My friend put a magnetic sign on his RV maligning the contractor-the term lemon was used. His lawyer told him to remove the sign until after the lawsuit was settled otherwise he would be sued by the builders attorney.
I respect Jenny's willingness to do what she can to make her situation better by making those crafts. Many people would have just given up on the boat and their dream. I hope she succeeds.
Well, I can and did name the boatbuilder who even if unintentionally robbed his customers of approximately £220k. I also doubt that he benefited in the end. Our boat was surveyed twice - firstly when finally licences and secondly when we sold her. I subsequently bought another boat, which was surveyed very thoroughly before purchase and when she was sold. I am too old now to have another boat, but would highly recommend buying a ver well surveyed seconded hand boat before having commissioning a new build. And also remember that there is no such thing as a bargain- or an inexpensive living in a floating bungalow,.
