3 G.A. crashes in 4 days N. CA 

"was well within published margins" Didja check the numbers? ;-) DA-20 take off to 50': 1,600 feet. < Brand new airplane, engine, flown by company test pilot off of a level runway with a good surface. 98 degrees pushes the density altitude up to ~5,400 feet which the Koch Chart (FAA-P-8740-2) indicates an _almost_ 200% increase in takeoff roll and 70% reduction in rate of climb. The 2.0% uphill gradient takes 20% away from your effective runway length. DA-20's can assumed to be trainers, so you know that the engine and prop have been abused and not likely to be performing as well as the "new" aircraft flown by the company test pilot to develop the values in the P.O.H. Adding it all up: P.O.H. calls for 1,600 feet for takeoff to clear 50 feet, density altitude pushes that to _almost_ 3,200 feet. The runway is 3,217 feet long, but due to the uphill gradient is effectively _2,560_ feet long. (At this point, we haven't even decremented the performance of the aircraft, engine and prop, due to age and condition, yet.) It does not look, to me at least, that you were "well within published margins". Do my numbers look right?

Dannafe thank you for that excellent information that explains the whole thing. You’re right that I was going off the POH and was unaware of the Koch Chart then and till this day. I appreciate the time you took to write out my whole NTSB report!

@@ToddDunning I've done the "weaving around obstacles while accelerating in ground effect" a few too many times myself! I've learned to _add_ _to_ _the_ _book_ _values_ an additional 10% for age of the aircraft and 10% for condition of the runway.

@@stay_at_home_astronaut "new plane, flown by company test pilot, under the best ideal conditions on the planet" was pounded into me by my CFI. I usually add a 30% fudge factor to my calculations to compensate for this. Perhaps there are flights/loads I could have taken that I scratched/removed, BUT, I'd rather get in the aircraft KNOWING I'm well within limits rather than hoping/guessing.

@@grayrabbit2211 :"hope" is not a good strategy! ;-)

Oh, I should have mentioned that we now own a C-182.

I am a Mooney 20K pilot-owner, so this crash really got my attention. The major difference between the M20J that crashed here and my M20K is my turbocharger, which allows me to make full power more quickly at altitude. I don’t know if the laminar flow wing issue is truly significant, but I will bring this up on the Mooneyspace forum and see what the experts there say. Useful load in a M20J/K is not great, just over 900 lb. Four adults and a full fuel load is going to be close to, if not past, the limits of the W&B envelope. You might get away with that at low altitudes, but at high density altitudes you are going to need a lot of runway to reach Vr. The POH has tables that will tell you exactly how much runway you will need in the conditions you’re dealing with. But practically speaking, I think this pilot attempted a takeoff under circumstances far past the limits of my personal minimums in these birds. You can’t play around with W&B, especially not at high density altitudes.

What goes fast dont go slow!!!

I’ve had a 201 and a 231 and both operated well ahead of book of course I always used the book numbers. Balance is always critical but mooneys are very forgiving on weight. Density altitude is something you always want to pay attention to.

Our old flying club had a poster on the wall that just read ... "Fly safe. The laws of aerodynamics are very unforgiving ... and the ground is very hard!". Always sticks in my mind 40 years on.

Agree 100%. That what my instructor said 50 years ago and I stuck it to my mind.

A Mooney is just about the worst aircraft to use to try and get in and out of that kind of airstrip.

And a 210 is a lot more plane

thanks for the comment 🙏🏼🙏🏼

use to fly to murray field, waited for fog at dinsmore, kneeland, cowboy camp on the mad, covalo. jad my.own app up mad past lumber mill, turn left when mountain came our of the fog on a heading for murray field

WOW! Thanks for the 1st hand report. Did it sound like he had full power?

@@blancolirio I don't remember honestly. I talked to our a&p who was in the hangar the plane flew right over later that day and he said it sounded like it was making full power.

Low, slow, heavy with high pitch angle on a hot day. All ingredients for an unrecoverable stall. Heartfelt condolences to those who lost their loved ones in this crash.

I'm guessing he was perhaps high on final and/or fast. Been to Angwin quite a few times and the significant downslope of the runway can definitely throw you off on your touchdown point as the runway tends to fall away from you as you cross the numbers and try to put her down. This can easily lead to long landing and a lot of runway behind the airplane upon touchdown. I'm suspecting (pure speculation) that the pilot was floating down the runway (which was descending along with the aircraft) and made a late go-around decision. I've taken off there on hot days in a C172 and ended up safe but yet still uncomfortably close to the trees beyond the airport perimeter. I can see someone not familiar with this airport underestimating the situation.

@@blancolirio I used to work at the College there, so I am familiar with the area and used to help on the airport. The area south of the runway was full height forest until a few years ago when the FAA made us clear them, so we sold the land to a vineyard, which is why there is one strip of vineyard with tall trees on both sides. There is however a row of old oak trees along Airport Way, which crosses at the south boundary of the airport and wraps around. The trees are on the south side of the road along the vineyard fence. They are big trees, but the south threshold of the runway is on the other side of the hangers, fuel island, office, and a few hundred feet of grass tie down area, so they are well below FAA limits. The plane actually hit in the vineyard down at the bottom of the south end of the airport plateau, almost hitting Las Posadas Road. If you see in the pictures and videos fire trucks parked on asphalt past a rock wall, that's Las Posadas Road. Those vineyards are on the slope down from the plateu to the valley to the south. Google is putting street numbers off in the weeds, but I would say 300-400 block of Las Posadas. Compare the chopper videos with Google maps and you can see it easily. There does appear to be a row of tall fir trees at the lip of the plateu, but that's far away from the end of the airport, and way below the FAA slope. My guess from the descriptions is that he was so low when he crossed Airport Way, which is 2000 feet south of the south threshold that he clipped those trees, but then continued another 1600 feet and hit the taller trees at the edge of the plateau which slowed him enough to crash on the slope below. If he had made it over the ones at the edge of the plateau, he might have made it, but there's forest on the other side of small valley, so not much room to gain speed with a dive if he hadn't been able to by the time he got to the edge of the plateau. If not for the account of seeing him hit the trees at the end of the airport, I would skip them and say he got the firs at the end of the plateau, but he could have gotten both.

I'm sorry, Guy for your loss. Thank you for filling us in.

Condolences.

My condolences. Thanks for the post and prayers for all who are affected by this tragic series of events.

So sorry for your loss. It does NOT appear that they actually stopped in Napa. The track on flight aware shows the aircraft headed direct to Dinsmore well past Napa and ends just south of the area when the data cuts off over the mountains. Keep in mind that the Bonanza crashed in Napa around 9 am that morning so Angwin Airport was likely closed, if that was their initial plan. Full fuel wound have put them at an outrageous weight.

Is “Guy Faux” a “false guy” as his name suggests? Sorry to ask, but circumstances suggest it’s appropriate to do so.

😢

I used dinsmore to hide from the fog when Murray and kneeland were socked in. Fog is a waiting game and never someday!!! Got to know your airplane

All too often first time mistakes are not lived through to never repeat. Gravity is unforgiving like that.

@@larrybe2900 A harsh reality.

It seems like more and more private pilots do not do the math like commercial airline pilots do prior to take offs. Just an observation from all the crashes in last two years. Watching Juan's channel, I am amazed at all the different types/models of private planes there are out there and their different advantages and limitations. Perhaps the FAA needs to make some adjustments in the 'class ratings' of/for private aircraft and some additional training requirements for weight and balance and weather factors on an ongoing basis. But then again when I get my non commercial drivers license at 16, I take the written and driving tests and I am good for life with no requirement to be tested on any law changes over my lifetime, unlike commercial airline pilots.

I've always thought of Mooneys as a two seater with an upholstered baggage compartment. They aren't terribly highly powered and really are a point to point, good airfields only type of aircraft. I wonder if their speed lulls their owners into thinking they have more performance available at low speeds than they really do?

@@TyphoonVstrom TSIO-550/280 turbocharged horsepower in the Acclaim S in recent years that I am used to. It’s no slouch-about the same as a Bonanza 33 I also used to fly with about 700 fewer pounds to have to push around-but this was a J model where there’s going to be even less margin for what they were trying to do. Back in the day, my home base in SoCal had about 3,000 ft. of runway with 210 hp turbocharged, but we never had a problem even on the hottest days at gross. A third person or kids in the back was more common than not.

Needs a little more power but then the #s would change. Loved my io 470

@@TyphoonVstrom Yep. That is a very good point. Mistakently assume high tak-off performance because of speed of the aircraft.

I takeoff out of a 2,500 ft. Field with a J model in Texas, and though it’s relatively low altitude, density altitude is always extremely important taking off with more than 2 people. I’ve found 4 people trips are reserved for only cooler fall days and winter. If it’s a cool 50 degree day, 4 people with baggage is perfectly fine. But if we did that on a 95 degree day (which is nearly everyday here from June through September) it’d be a death sentence..

@DR Essex I'm sure it's possible but the air around these fire is very very active. At night possibly, I have been on fires where at night there would be an inversion layer of smoke. You are in clear air and walk 20' up the hill and it's solid smoke.

Do you have a link to that video??

@@torgy3 yep, look in this videos description. It's about 4 or 5 items down it'll say bodad firefight

It really warms the heart to hear Bo's appreciation, especially his offer to use his site as a base camp. As a former brush monkey and fire captain, your thanks touch the heart. Most folks know little of just how dynamic a wildfire can be. As a crew boss, it's a constant battle of balancing what I know my crew can do, and what that flame front can do. Resources are ever changing. I agree, Bo, armchair quarterbacking really burns my ass. Glad you are safe, sir!

@@robertborchert932 you do a job that requires far to much time and effort and not nough appreciation or compensation. Living in Central Washington, ive witnessed (as many of us have) how quickly and severely conditions and directions can change and turn a fire you're getting control of to one your fighting for your life to survive and escape. To do that and be responsible for your crew and their lives makes you about as close to a real superhero as we have in this day and age. Thank you, for those days when armchair idiots say something stupid or you find yourself working far to hard for to long without a thank you and on behalf of those people who never get the chance to say it...thank you and stay safe, please.

Thanks Bob, I'll post a link to VasAviation.

I was think it would be good to know a bit more about that. Must have be an interesting family. Well liked, they owned a successful dive shop in town. They lived near Costco between US 1 and the Old Cemetery. I always wondered about that place backing the hill as it does, until the crash when I learn a bit. I understand the whole family was loaded in their 1974 Mooney M20, for a trip to Tuolumne County. 231 -www.google.com/maps/@36.9803341,-122.0334452,92m/data=!3m1!1e3

A M20J cannot carry 4 adults even if you were flying below sea level.

Complacency seems likely with the Mooney crash. Every aircraft is equipped with a Pilot's Operating Handbook. Pre-flight planning should include forecast weather conditions for the destination airport, and in the case of short, high density altitude runways, a check of the aircraft performance chart located in the POH should be done to ensure that it is safe, or even possible, to land and take off. Personally, if there is any question in my mind, I always look at the performance chart, using the current temperature/weather conditions; before making the decision to attempt a takeoff. A big part of being a pilot is the responsibility to do all of the technical "pilot stuff", particularly when carrying unsuspecting, non-aviation savvy passengers.

well taking off to the south from Kelowna the terrain falls away until you are over the lake then you have unlimited amount of time to get high enough to then make a right towards Couver .. but those are challenging mountains with constant weather changes .. early morning for me ONLY.. but love the area.

@@jlh9910 yes, lots of time to gain the altitude needed to head west to YVR which make this fated plane crash all the more perplexing and senseless. My friend was absolutely devastated over the loss of her baby sister, an innocent young 20 something passenger. Tragic and completely avoidable.

@@dougtarbet6193 I have spent a little time up that way I had a house in Kelowna and friend with a Husky and a A 36 that was based in Vernon.. And then I flew up there quite a few times in my Cirrus SR 22.. Mainly to Kamloops but been into Merrit Pentictin Kelowna of course and Vernon and all the airports from Wenatchee up the Okanagan valley .. and many lakes as the husky had floats. most all those airports are surrounded by high rising terrain and very quickly changing weather.. Its an area of the world were you need to really be on your game.. myself I would not fly past 10am. If I was coming up from Portland my home base I left at 6 to 7am. This Dinsmore accident is much like BC flying tight terrain in a river valley.

My girlfriend flew with me to the first Oshkosh with under 50 lb baggage capacity in my Champ. 120 lbs would have been sheer luxury. (She married me anyway!)

Like one of our local volunteer FDs has never lost a lot! I observed lightning hit a house while out on my shrimp boat and immediately called my wife on the CB radio to have her call the FD. This was before we had cell phones and internet! I helplessly watched the house burn to the ground before the FD arrived on scene.

Here they call them the "foundation savers"! Love your channel Brownie...

I was in a rural volunteer fire department and we also had 20 miles of freeway to cover. We occasionally got called out to a motor home fire on the freeway. we called them: 'Save a frame'.

Was your dad the owner of the Artesia rental cars? Bonanza with bad fuel?

@@retydeere1111 the final report was a bad fuel pump. Failed.

@@retydeere1111 yes, we owned Afford Auto Rental in Artesia.

Probably your nephew, Jeremy, but he was an old high school friend and later a neighbor of mine a kcno. He kept Wilburs “aircraft support” box in the hangar next to me. It was white with blue stripes. He really admired his grandpa S.

@@retydeere1111 you were a friend of Jeremy’s ? Do you fly as well? Do you still keep in contact with him? Jeremy is still in the AF and has been an enlisted Airman Assigned to AF-1 since 2008. I have gotten a tour of AF-1 in 2009. I can pass along a hello.

know you aircraft's limitations and your own, and don't exceed either.

At the end, he stated "A man's got to know his limitations."

Yes, for someone that has done this procedure 100's of times she seemed confused and forgetful. Her last transmission sounded like she was very sleepy, talking slow and low. I think she may have been experiencing a stroke. But I don't know if the body can be tested for this with the amount of destruction evident in crash. So sad.

Wow! Someone needs to step up and backfill.

Time to go fishing

@@blancolirio 100% Democrat State.

@@JoeLinux2000 What the hell does this have to do with Hawaii needing a shipping supplier? Nothing!

@@LindysEpiphany Everything. Are you suggesting the liberal governments in the failed cities of Portland, Seattle, Chicago, SF, LA, Detroit, NYC, Baltimore, Minneapolis, Philadelphia are just “unlucky”? Libs never think about consequences and contingency plans, as this requires “foresight”. S’ht happens and that’s it…things just go to sh’t and stay that way, and typically continue to get worse and worse. Most of the above cities used to be nice places. What happened? You can’t blame everything on the Orange Man. So yeah, local politics are a valid consideration when things go to sh’t. Im sure the US taxpayers will end up bailing out Hawaii somehow. But thats just my opinion based on decades of observation.

My Jeni has been after me for YEARS to replace that thing...lol.

@@batgoat28 • Guilty!😆

@@blancolirio • Lol shame on you, Juan! You were off work for months, hello. Now be a good husband and do your “honey do!” Fix it (read: buy her a new one) already!😁

@@batgoat28 restarted the video afterwards, and kept my eyes on the prop, er, i mean fan, waiting for an uncontained failure, lol!!!

If he balances the fan, it will display his mechanical skill level, and drive his wife crazy.

Legal weed and a socialized education system. Things aren't going to improve.

@@irvhh143 - Ain't that the truth ... :(