In Japan you will frequently find multiple smaller tankless throughout the home, one near each fixture with it's own thermostat control. For instance I was living in a two bedroom apartment and had one in the kitchen, one in the toilet room restroom, and one in the shower/bath room. Because they were located so close to the sinks/showers the hot water was truly near instant. Each unit was about 1/3 to 1/2 the size of the one you featured in this video.
You can do this if you want to, but who wants to deal with having a billion of these in a home? It's ugly in a finished space and there is maintenance associated with each unit.
Very happy with our tankless. The maintenance is accomplished with $50 Amazon pump and a couple of gallons of white vinegar. Takes about 5 minutes to hook things up and then you let the pump run for 45 minutes. Long term costs are are less than $10 per year
Worked as an energy auditor for the electric utility here in Hawaii . Part of my job involved investigating high bill complaints. With some of the highest electricity rates in the nation, I was often called to explain why customer's bills were still high after installation of a tankless water heater. Quite a few people were sold one tankless heater for the whole house expecting to realize savings. They never factored in heat loss from pipes. It takes a lot of electricity to heat water instantaneously, and then send it efficiently to a fixture on the other side of a house. They now add additional heaters closer to every point of use , however at added cost. The increased expense of additional heaters, maintenance, noise, and often wiring upgrades need to be factored in? Traditional tanked heaters have their own challenges. Best thing about tankless is the savings in space, and the lack of having to store a heavy, large volume of water inside a home. Tankless may have its use, however savings in dollars doesn't seem to be one of them.
If people are concerned for the price of heating hot water with electricity, they should be looking at heat pump hot water heaters (3x more energy for same price), or maybe solar (10x or so), not instantaneous electricity heaters - those barely offer any savings.
They need to be flush/cleaned yearly also. In one trade magazine, they did a test, and a super high efficiency (94%?) boiler had it's efficiency go down to something like 66%, after not being flushed for 3 years. So they may have been spending a ton also because their water heater was scaled up. i'll take a tank anyday. 89% efficiency for the life of the appliance, and 40 gallons of hot water even without power. And simple and cheap to replace.
@@michael-dm2bv what you and most everyone else fails to note is the most important factor being the kind of water in your area. If the water supply is "soft water" ....the need for "cleaning", "flushing", "descaling" ....is ZERO. This being said, the efficiency does NOT change. It stays at the original rating. So if your opinion is poor about tankless water heaters, you need to qualify your opinion by stating that the water in your area is HARD WATER. .
@@taxicamel No advantage to a tankless. Tanked electric, if i lose power i still have 40 gallons hot water to play with. 40 gallon gas? i never run out of hot water, regardless of electricity. What does a tankless buy u? A water heater with 50 parts rather than a tanked heater with 5 parts? Hard water? Soft water? Hilarious. i am willing to bet most people have water that is more hard than soft. Look. Central CT. We had a lightning storm a few years ago. The next day one of our states biggest supply houses had lines out the door. Tons of people with overly complicated tankless water heaters, all had burnt out logic boards, and the supply house had no replacement parts, because tankless heaters are always complicated, and always evolving. For what? For 6% better efficiency? Should i pray for soft water, that way i can spend 3 times the cost, for an overly complicated water heater, just to save 100 dollars a year?
Excellent video...thanks Matt. When I was stationed in Chiangmai, Thailand, in 1968 we had tankless water heaters in the civilian complex we were renting. They were efficient, and during my year there repair service was never needed. With that memory in mind, when I built my latest new house nearly 50 years later I finally opted for a tankless system. No regrets at all. For me personally, the savings are legitimate. One of the routine blunders we all make with a conventional water heater is to turn on the hot water when only a quick rinsing of the hands or whatever is wanted. Seldom do we wait the half minute for the hot water to reach the faucet or for the lines to heat up to really deliver hot water. So, we deplete some of the tank's stored hot water unnecessarily, which means that cold water must "replenish" the tank. The tank then fires up for an extended time to reheat the stored water that was drawn off for no good reason. Pure waste. You would think we would all learn to give up on 20-second or more delays for hot water that we generally give up on, but we seldom give up our bad habits. If you keep this same bad habit with a tankless system, it will only fire up briefly before it goes back to sleep. Another poster complained about short starts & stops resulting in inefficient combustion and gas smell buildup, but never once have I experienced this. Sounds like a unit may have been malfunctioning. As for tank cleaning, this is simple for anyone with reasonable handyman skills. Once you buy a relatively inexpensive circulation pump the only cost is then for the 3-4 gallons of vinegar used for each flushing. Beats replacing a conventional water heater every 10-15 years, not to mention risking flooding when a tank ruptures when you are on vacation. When friends and family visit, having virtually unlimited hot water for each bathroom, the kitchen, and the laundry room is a very nice convenience.
Larry- you make a good point on waste. Why hasn't the usa gov't outlawed tanks. They stepped in and f****d up our washing machines. New machines can't clean at all.
Hey - my AOSmith water heater, when I bought it, was deemed most efficient and I have never ran out of hot water. I paid a nice penny for it in 2011, but compared to tankless at the time and install fees, was better bargain and still performing strong today! My water heater is a power vented unit with digital controls. Allows for radiant heat loop add on and remote controller. This was the investment choice I made.
I first saw these tankless units when I was doing business in Europe in the mid 1980's. The typical home actually had several units. One small one for the bathroom to handle the shower, tub and sink and another in the kitchen. They were cute little things that fired up whenever you turned on the hot water. So, I put one in my house and it has worked great for over 11 years.
Very informative! I like that you really try and discuss both sides of owning either option, and not like what many do, where they have a vested interest to make one option look better than the other.
Back when I was a plumber I installed quite a few of these. Back then they were kind of hard to find, kind of expensive and had a lot of cons vs pros imo. I made a nice niche for myself because I had lived in Korea for a few years and had not only experience with them before they made their way to the states but the ability to order them from korean suppliers since I was fluent in Korean. Many plumbing businesses didn't want to mess with them at the time in the US. Setting up and programming them was tricky, the filter in them got clogged easily and required some work-arounds and additional stuff sometimes. But in Maryland/DC area a lot of people building homes wanted them. What I saw was the initial cost was high, energy savings were not that much. Installation could be expensive if you needed gas run, a vent installed, etc. If you had issues there was no drip pans or drains. If you had issues you might have a hard time finding parts or a company that will service and if they do they charge much more. They can be tricky to set but you do get lots of options on the display module but that requires a lot of the customer needing coaching if they are not diy or tech savvy. They do not send hot water as instantaneously as people believe they will. The only pros that I could see was they are great for small living spaces that have no option for traditional waterheaters but that is arguable too since the clearances for tankless are more than for a small WH you could fit in a closet. Or a tankless might be good for places where they might be installed outdoors in year around warm climates. Not sure how much they have changed in the last 15 years since I messed with them but considering the advancements regular waterheaters have made, I would stick with traditional myself.
I installed my tankless water heater myself in 1985. It is still serving me well today. I live in Pittsburgh Pa.which is not a warm weather city. This water heater has saved me thousands of dollars over the years. Not just in natural gas savings, but not having to replace the water heater every 10 to 12 years. 3 things are necessary for the efficienct operation of a tankless water heater. 1. Soft water, which allows the water to heat more quickly and also prevents calcium buildup in the water heater. I have never had to flush my water heater since 1985 and it’s still going strong. 2. A good water regulator which will provide a predictable flow rate which is necessary for the proper operation of the water heater. 3. A good whole house water filter which will prevent debris from clogging the internals of water heater. When street repairs are made to external water lines, it often results in a great amount of debris which will lodge in the water heater if a whole house water filter is not installed. There is one more item which is a very good idea but not mandatory for proper operation, and that is to place a pressure gauge upstream and downstream of your regulator to let you know when your regulator fails. I’m a retired industrial piping designer and know the benefits of a properly installed tankless water heater. I’ve spent less than one hundred dollars in part replacement since 1985.
I purchased a Bosch tankless water heater 16 years ago. I have never done maintenance ( though I know I should), and only had to replace one minor part (related to the pilot valve I think). It’s great when you have company over, or someone in the family likes to take long, steamy showers.
Too funny...good catch. Though one could argue down here you are just about heating hot water. In the summer the ambient water temperature is pretty warm. I wouldn't even use the hot water for showering if it weren't a mixer valve. Anyway, I edited it; thanks for the catch.
Very good point. I mean as long as we're getting technical. I thought this was somewhat humorous at first, but ole Flight seems to really care about this hot water thing. Anyway, Happy New Year to you both.
Am a week into researching replacing my tank with a tankless, and this video (plus your other one on condensing vs non-condensing) has been invaluable. And I appreciate you addressing the myth of “instant” hot water with a tankless, thus I’m now going down the gopher hole of looking up recirculating pumps, crossover valves, and flushing isolation kits. Much appreciated!
Or just buy a few tiny "under-the-sink" electric water heaters. They cost less than $200 each. Install one in each bathroom and you do get instant hot water.
I rolled the dice on a Rinnai tankless water heater nearly 20 years ago ... a newer technology in this region at the time. It just 'died' earlier this week after all these years with zero problems! We LOVE it. My new Rinnai is going to be installed tomorrow afternoon.
Ha, my tank water heater was just replaced with another one, last one was installed in 1996. It uses just 3 ccf a month. It sure beats buying a tankless for $2500
I’ve had my tankless water heater since 1985 and it’s still performing well. I have never flushed the unit ever. The secret to longevity and dependable service is that 3 things are necessary. 1. Soft water. This eliminates the need for annual flushing and enhances the efficiency of the water heater because soft water heats more quickly using less energy. 2. A good water regulator for a constant dependable flow rate. My water heater requires a 2.5 gpm flow rate for optimal efficiency. 3. A good whole house water filter to keep debris from clogging the internal heating chamber. This filter should be replaced at least twice a year, depending on your water usage. To insure your water regulator is working properly, installing pressure gauges upstream and downstream of your water regulator is a good idea to let you know when it fails. My water regulator is set for 60 psig. I’ve spent less than $100 on parts since installed. 2 diaphragms for the gas regulator. 1 pilot light thermocouple 1 pilot light gas filter I have NEVER had to flush the water heater due to my soft water unit.
@@paulhunter9613 I’ve had my tankless water heater since 1985 and it’s still going strong. I live in Pittsburgh where the water supply is very cold in the winter. I would have had to replace at least 3 tank type water heaters by now. Save money on monthly natural gas bills too.
Was the new one cheaper installation? Mine is about to be ten years old and I hope when it goes it's easy to put a new one in since the gas ,exhaust ,etc are all done. Wondering if it could even be an easy diy?
The only tankless brand I’ve really used is Rinnai. I grew up with an old Rinnai and it lasted 15 years before I finally replaced it for my folks. Being a plumber myself and having installed these, I have no complaints with them. Tanks on the other hand I’ve been to countless service calls to houses that the company plumbed that had only been finished for three years. With the changes they are making to tank water heaters it seems it is drastically changing their life span for the worse. The basic manufacture warranty for the particular brand we installed was 6 years. The vast majority of those water heaters never lasted more than 8. I figure with the efficiency of the tankless and the fact it can handle demanding temperature rises fairly easily it’s a no brainer to go tankless. Recirc lines like he said will fix the issue of waiting for cold water. If money isn’t the driving factor but comfort is, I would far suggest the tankless. Specifically Rinnai’s integrated pump model, or their duo system for larger homes or applications. But hey that’s just me. Happy plumbing
Extremely helpful! Making a decision whether to go tankless. This video presented information that made my decision easy: sticking with conventional tank. As to longevity of the unit, at my age of 80 , the difference between 15 ands 20 years isn't top of my list!
We are going tankless on our build however, if a tank is maintained as specified by a manufacturer it will last for 20-30 years as well. Most people don’t empty the tank once a year and check their anode rod. If a flush is conducted regularly and the anode rod replaced when necessary, they will last a long long time. Great video and thanks for your wisdom, as always!
He doesn't take into the high initial cost to install a tankless hot water heater (dedicated gas line, high velocity gas meter and brass connections and condensate line) easily in excess of 3000 dollars and not appropriate for extremely cold northern climates. Many cases of failure. I have solar hot water with a traditional tank heater. Flush biannually and install a whole house filter at the meter and you will get long life out of your system.
Well then, please explain why the tank style water heaters in my two homes are still going strong. One is currently 20 years old, and the other is 45 years old. And neither has had the amount of maintenance it should have.
Jim Price ... Manufacturers build in failure these days ... I have been to Bradford White 3 times... AO Smith 2 times and American once... they build them for replacement not longevity... sucks but true... peace ✌️
Michael Bala i hung a 500$ tankless on the exterior of my house. It vents directly to the air and has a short run to my propane tank. It was very cheap to install.
If you pay for the service it is costly. I bypassed a 6 year old tankless propane water heater for my mom. Repair and service was almost the cost of a 40 gal. new electric one. I may DYI it later.
Pretty good city water and a softener has me trouble and maintenance free for well over ten years now. Can't even remember how long ago, but I love it and my utility bills since I'm single and don't have to heat a tank 24 hours a day.
Thank you for making this video. I was skeptical about changing my water heater to a tank less and now that I've seen your video, I going forward to a thankless water heater.
I know that you did this video several years ago, but maybe you could do an updated version of this and also talk about the potential problem of the limited increase in water temperature. I live in western PA and have a well. Ground water temps can be down in the low 50's most of the time. I've researched putting in tankless, but through the research I've done, temperature increases are typically only about 35 degrees. So starting out with 50 degree water and adding 35 degrees only gets the water temp up to about 85 degrees. With most people wanting a moderately warm shower at just around 105 degrees, the tankless heaters I have researched don't come close to even moderate. Seems I'd have to have at least 2 of these in line with each other to reach the temps my wife likes to shower at of around 110-115 degrees. Thanks for all the great videos. Love your show and all the great info you provide.
This is a really great explanation of the difference between these units. I appreciate that it is presented in a non-biased way, presenting the pros and cons of each. I would also have included that switching to tankless involves some electrical work that also adds to the cost.
And is the electric goes out, so does the hot water with the tankless type. Keep in mind Californias rolling blackouts. the tank type is also a convenient emergency water storage system.
the monthly savings, going tankless, will be eaten up and more by the plumber's annual visit. And even if that weren't the case, how many months for it to pay for itself, for both models, would be nice to know.
When I worked for a dairy I helped install 2 of these tankless water heaters, here's the crazy thing 1 of those tankless is far more efficient then 6 tank water heaters going at once.
I installed this type of hot water heater about 20 years ago. I'd never go back to a tank. It's not savings that I like it. I have enough hot water to fill my big jetted tub, run the shower at the same time without running out. I've had a lot of houseguest sand never ran out of hot water. My Ranii has yet to fail me!
Exactly. I've had a tankless unit for over 25 years....20 for the first and so far 5 years on the second. I have well water with a hit/miss water softener. I have never, ever flushed a unit. I was chatting with a couple different plumber friends about putting a tankless in my cabin to replace an ancient electric. Both responded...OMG NO!. I've run one long enough to know better. I will say though that if you have a tankless that is a long run from some faucets you might not get what you need. If you are accustomed to running lots of hot water in different rooms at once, same. My original water heater strongly against using mixer faucets , they didn't keep a strong enough demand to keep the flow valve open.
Solar hot water in Phoenix, never run out of hot water and it's crazy cheap to run. Even if you ran out of hot you just switch to the cold which is also hot 😁
@@chrishuyler3580 Actually in the winter you don't need much if any heat or AC and the solar hot water still works great. What people pay for heating in the winter I feel costs more then the AC does in Phoenix.
Matt misses one key issue regarding performance: cycling at low flow rates. My previous home in Texas had two Rinnai natural gas tankless units, mounted on the exterior. If I wanted to take a warm, not hot, shower, as I would usually want to after a hot afternoon of yard work, the tankless unit was a big problem. When setting a shower to a medium warm temperature, the flow through the hot side is just a trickle. The Rinnai apparently has a minimum BTU on the burner, and it would shut off if the flow wasn't sufficient, blasting me with cold water. The only workaround I found was to open a tap on hot during my shower. This would never be an issue with a standard water heater or a hybrid (small tank) water heater.
NOTE: My parents got a Bosch tankless about 8 years ago and they found that the system has settings for minimum draw on the hot water line to trigger the firing of the heater, but regardless of the sensitivity settings, it sill would not kick on when it was supposed to. Maybe 5 years later (when this video was created) they're made better, but I'm still skeptical.
A cost breakdown (initial + operating) would be nice. If I have to upgrade my gas meter and run a 1" gas line, that is going to push out the payback period of a tankless system.
I replaced a tankless unit around 2010, that unit had been converted from coal gas to natural gas in 1966, so probably more than 50 years of operation. My problem was if there was any pressure the water ran cold so I was graduly running the water at lower pressure until I decided to replace it.
Love my tankless. Have water softener. Did flushing myself on tankless in my rental units. Easy to diy with 5 gal pail , two short garden hoses, a sump pump and 5 gallons of white vinegar.
Several years ago I decided to replace my tank type natural gas water heater before it failed. It was 12 years old and several of my neighbors had theirs fail. It was going to cost at least an additional $1,000 to go tankless because it was a retrofit. In this house, the only gas appliance that is used during the summer is the water heater. My gas bill runs about $15 per month those months. Half of that is account/meter costs and taxes. Matt is correct. The gas use differential is slight. There was no way I could ever get those extra costs recouped. Plus I like the idea of having the possibility of a 50 gallon emergency water supply on hand. And my tank style heater can run even during a power failure.
Mine sits in a relatively warm insulated attached garage adjacent to the furnace. This area has very soft water naturally. Forgot that one of the things failing on the builder grade water heater I replaced was the deteriorating plastic intake pipe. The slime/muck was clogging the clothes washer's hot water valve screen. I had drained the unit several times and there was little sediment each time. While I was at it, I went from a 40 gallon to a 50 gallon fast recovery unit. Works great. Never run out of hot water. But then, I don't fill a swimming pool sized tub either.
At 5¢ per cubic metre, how much will you save by installing a $200 recirculation pump that requires an electrical outlet under the sink? Edit: 50¢ per cubic metre
I checked my most recent bill. And like your pricing structure our annual sewer charges are based on water use during some of the winter months. My two month bill for actual sewer use is just under $6 and actual water use is just over $6. The other $130 are fixed costs. Water and sewer use costs combined are about one half cent a gallon, if I calculated correctly. Based on my costs, your worst case use is 160 gallons monthly or, for simplicity sake, $1. Your break even on the $200 pump would be 200 months or nearly 17 years. The pumps cost money to operate. They don't last forever. May require some maintenance, clean screens etc. And introduce several more potential leak points. And if it hasn't been scheduled to run when you need it, and you have to run water yourself, you missed a payback. Also, if there are multiple people running water in various parts of the house through the day, the run to the MB bath likely requires less water wasted to get to hot than the first morning shower. I have always been intrigued by them, but considered it a luxury and not a way to save money. Even with the pump in place, you do waste several cups of water each time. In the past, there was a type that had a low voltage button that one pressed to activate the pump to run until it sensed hot water at your use/button site. At least you would avoid the cost of running the pump for no reason hours a day. But better have a good memory and have hit the button before showering. (I also don't believe the pumps save much of the cost to heat the dumped water, as the cooled off water gets recirculated into the water heater and has to be heated again.) (You can always capture the cold waste water in a bucket and use it to water plants, or, I suppose, flush the toilet or fill the clothes washer. But that takes dedication or a true drought crisis.)
Mine was installed in late 2014 and it isn't connected to electricity. And I just checked on a big box store's website, they continue to sell natural gas water heaters that don't use external electric power.
Good video. Nice quality. Installed a tankless heater. LOVED it. They are sold on savings, but true, they don't save a lot monthly. In fact, you may use the same or more gas because if you have a tankless, you will tend to use more. I did. Especially since you can take a shower for a long time...such as having company in there with you. Myth 2... yeh, most of us know it's not instant. Myth 3... well, a friend who owns a plumbing company installed one many years ago. They have 7 kids. He wanted to test it and see how long it would last with ZERO maintenance. It's still going strong after 10 years. Unbelievable. I wouldn't recommend that, but the maintenance on a tankless is not the pain they make it out to be. Now, the initial cost is significant. If you hire it done, you will never recoup that cost. I installed myself. Wasn't too tough. But I've had plumbing experience somewhat. Plus I saved the huge cost because I installed when the tax deduction was given up to half the install cost way back when. All that said, it was great. I didn't maintain it but every couple years. I also didn't buy it for cost savings. I wanted hot water forever. And I could run my shower and a kitchen faucet 24 hours without running out. Period. (Yes, it was in a northern climate where many local plumbers said "It won't work".)
Using mine in Alaska for domestic hot water and hydronic heating. No savings in the winter compared to an old tank and boiler, but in the summer, the modulated flame and electronic temperature control cut my fuel costs way down. The coaxial vent pipe also helps since I don't need to bring in fresh - but cold - outside air for combustion. It's absolutely fantastic and I don't understand why tanks are still even a thing anymore.
Nice. The only reason tank type heaters still sell millions is cost. Period. Eventually tankless will dominate the market. New homes will be built with tankless in design so that they are not so expensive to retrofit.
Doug Fresh I was going the tankless way but as I kept purchasing the required parts the cost was astronomical. I decided to go with a gas power vent that is electronically controlled with no standing pilot light. I also purchased the warranty that gives me total replacement until 2025. I did install it myself and used 2” pvc to vent the unit out of the laundry room via a window. I replaced the glass with plywood and sealed it off from the elements. I have a old iron tub that’s very deep and I can sit in the tub for hours and still have scalding hot water readily available. This unit is a option for people who don’t have the funds for a tankless yet can get the benefits of one for a lot less money. But as you and I know that doing the install yourself saved us big money still for the price I would take the same route again. Thanks for your input on the tankless and I hope that both of our experiences are able to help someone with their decision.
Good points. Mainly, the goal is that each installation provides the hot water needed. If we accomplish that, within our budget and operating costs, we've succeeded. Not a fan of extended warranties. However, knowing the failure rate of tank type heaters today, might be good. Not to mention those electronic ignitions are pricey. Also, retrofitting a house with the power vent or tankless heaters can't always be done. Good Luck!
Great video, thank you. My tank just went out this week. I decided to spend the extra money on tankless heater since it was needing replaced anyway. This video gave me some comfort about my purchase.
@@aliceholbert1246 So I have relatively hard well water, having a tankless installed tomorrow, are you saying I may not need to plan to flush this system at all?
Many years ago, I was visiting my husband's parents in China. They had tankless "on-demand" installed in their new home. They had three bathrooms in the main portion of the house, and a kitchen...of course. There are two balconies... a front balcony and a smaller back balcony off the kitchen that leads to a small private bed and bath for their maid. Each bathroom has its own on-demand tankless heater which is hidden in the vanities cabinetry. The kitchen also has its own heater as well which is directly hooked up to the kitchen sink. It was amazing to me because as soon as the water was turned on, it was instantly hot...As there were no hot water pipes in the home, just cole that would split into the heater at each water point. After returning back to America, my husband and I moved from Savannah, Georgia, to Denver, Colorado. We did a lot of renovations to our home and that was one of the items on the list. I would never have anything different. However, it is disappointing that America's price point of purchasing them haven't caught up with what much of the rest of the world finds as the norm. Currently, I am in China, As we now live half the year in China for family and business and the other portion of the year in Denver, and have been doing so for 4 years now. Our home in China also has tankless on-demand as well. If you are someone who is teetering between choices, I can guarantee you that if you give in to your curiosity you will be very happy you made that choice.
I installed a tiny tankless electric water heater in our house. It only supplies about a gallon per minute, but that is perfectly fine with a low flow shower head. Cost me less than $200! It is about 12" x 6" x 4". It is sold as an instant-on point-of-use water heater, but it works fine for our whole house since we never have a hot water using appliance on at the same time we use the one shower. It costs me nothing to run, because of our solar net-metering.
Something you didn't mention...tankless can be great in new builds or remodels but it can be very costly to retrofit. The venting must be dedicated - no sharing (which you often find with standard tank installs). In some cases, you may be running new pipe from a basement through several floors of a home and out through a roof. So...drywall, roofing, etc. You'll also be running new gas and water pipes. Everything can add up to make it cost-prohibitive.
My experience with tankless is that the labyrinth needs cleaning, especially if you live in Florida. Unless you have a water softener. The old tanks need a flushing but it's a lot easier, hook up a hose and flush. I also know the electric ones need a 50 amp dedicated service. I think the maintenance cost has to be rolled into the equation, esp if you're hiring a plumber once a year. !
I don't know if things like that exist in the US but here in Germany, we use a combination of those two systems. You can add a tank to your tankless unit to get a more stable temperature and the possibilty of more than one outlet using hot water at the same time. The tank works as kind of a buffer for hot water.
I have a Navien condensing combination unit as you described. It has three stainless heat exchangers and I presume stainless addresses the corrosion inherent in heat exchangers with mineral build up as a consequence. Maintenance seems to be flushing with descaling solution or vinegar to remove scale build up.
You. An piggy back 2 normal water heaters say 40 gallons and have almost limitless hot water, you do need more space and can control temps on each tank also increases life of both tanks.
Average Ground water is 52 degrees. It makes sense in the summer when the auxiliary tank is removing heat from within your house but in the winter it would be putting an additional load on your furnace.
It's here but rare. The tank takes away the hot cold sandwich and let's u use minimal flows of hot water while maintaining temperature. These set ups are expensive and generally for most homes a normal hot water tank will provide more than enough hot water. It's $800 for a water heater here and $300 to install it. A tankless is minimum $2000 by the time your done. Add to that another tank and the costs are very high. Only worth it if u need lots of hot water for showering or u have a jecuzi tub to fill.
Matt, time to revisit this video. If you're building a 100 year house, it makes sense to think about the cost of energy, and possibly water, going forward. You're wrong on the recirc pump being the only way to get instant hot water. As you later point out, the tankless heaters can go pretty much anywhere so putting them next to the hot water taps makes sense. You don't waste heat recirculating water to reheat it and you don't wait for the cold water to flush. You can also install a water softener so the annual maintenance issue goes away as well. Your laundry is cleaner to boot.
Good point. Regarding the placement of the tankless water heater, it's important to remember that some tankless are gas powered, and those consume oxygen hence cannot be installed wherever.
It most certainly makes a difference! It took about 2 years for my heater to pay for itself with the savings. It blew my mind at how much this saved! The tank it replaced did have a pilot light, so that alone was a HUGE savings. I could see that replacing a tank without a pilot light would narrow that savings margin, but these tanks are definitely a savings.
@@JR1300r I seriously doubt the pilot light was the reason. It has to do with the fact that there used to be a huge tank, constantly being heated. Now there's a small unit, hanging on the wall, doing nothing until needed. To me, there's no reason to have a tank heater anymore, they're obsolete... One of the negative things people bring up is that you have to descale them once a year, but by descaling them, they last longer than a tank, because they stay clean! After a few years of use, a water heater tank builds up a lot of guck and junk, junk that cannot be cleaned out. I've heard that a 5 year old tank can accumulate over a gallon or more of guck! With a tankless heater, that guck is cleaned out every time it's descaled. Lastly, the old prohibitive comparison cost of a tankless water heater has narrowed to the point, it's not a huge factor. If a tank is old and needs replaced, it's crazy not to upgrade it to tankless nowadays.
Good job on the video. But, truth is, tankless beats a tank hands down, especially in longevity. I had a tankless in my home for 30 years, I got it used from a neighbor who bought it in France, a Saunier Duval, he purchased in France. I'd still be using it in my home today, but I can no longer get parts as they quit selling to the US, also it was a pilot type, so buying a new tankless with an electronic igniter was a plus. With that said, I only descaled it once, though I live in the Sierra on spring water, so some small calcium buildup did occur. Before I installed the tankless, I was using about 35 gallons of propane a month, (I know, because I was using 25 Lb bottles at the time) including cooking, that's it, after I installed the tankless, I cut my propane usage to 20 gallons per month, however, the tankless I used was an oversized unit, so I was able to adjust its usage, unlike the new one I purchased. I live exclusively on solar, so an AC powered air exhaust unit was out of the question, something to consider if your power goes out. Anyway, point is, you may save a bit on gas as opposed to a tank unit, but you'll save thousands in replacement units because tank type units average a decade in life. Oh, and they scale up as well. Yes, I still use the old unit down at my campsite, you just have to manually light it to shower, so it's now about 50 years old and still works like new. Just be sure and look for a quality unit with stainless cores. I've found some of the Japanese units to be a better built unit as well as user friendly. Keep in mind, you can always install two, one for the kitchen and one for the shower if they are more than 20 apart, that way you get nearly instant hot water, and you can avoid a circulating pump, another part that uses power as well as risking replacement. Hope my experiences help you decide on which route you take.
Solar Solar so I have had two. One started giving me error codes. Ended up replacing the circuit board. Then got another error code. Had to replace unit. So I got a second one. Now two years later I'm getting error codes intermittently. So I find it hysterical that you and this video fail to mention this. I'll take my full size tank. It's in the basement plenty of room. Continuous heat. Never run out. Thanks
Sory for the late response. I said, avoid AC units if possible. I like the Japanese models myself, Bosch is crap IMO. Try starting here: www.takagi.com Then search other Japanese manufacturers for a model that suits your needs, but try and avoid AC units if possible. Good luck.
... about 15 years ago people where i live began putting tankless systems hoping to save on the high cost of electricity. Most were electric powered and sometimes required upgraded, dedicated circuits. They paid the higher initial cost of the system as well as installation. They never realized the reduction in electric bill. Vendors began telling them to install the tankless units nearer the point of use to maximize heating efficiency requiring them to install a unit at every spicket at even more cost. I can tell you they weren't happy as they never saved the money they hoped for. Only thing i saw was a saving in space for those whose water heaters were installed inside. I don't know if technology has improved or if propane ones saved money. I worked as an energy auditor for the local electric company and was often called out to explain why their bill never went down. Their literature and sales pitch made sense, however the reality was quite different.
I agree only to the point of how tankless and electrical bills changed for the worse. Fifteen years ago is not today and in some areas like NYC with some of the highest electrical costs, its a foregone conclusion not to use electrically heated tankless units. Perhaps the example you pointed to wasn't advised by a professional contractor that analyzed the home system and made a professional assessment. I have a newly installed natural gas condensing tankless unit, the largest available for a two family home. I saw immediate savings on the first gas bill and still see savings every month.
F Dryer ..the island i live on has the highest electric rates in the nation with gas not being much less. Customers had high expectations which turned out not to be the reality. I personally invested a little more money and installed solar. With tax credits, and the cost of solar down, it was the wiser thing to do given we have sun most of the year. Some contractors may do a more comprehensive energy analysis now, however they didn't then.
If you are running electric tankless that likely means you don't have gas , like I don't. I have electric tankless, for 25 years. The very slight increase in electric usage , almost imperceptable. It is way offset by not having to run my oil boiler during the summer! The electric stove, AC, or electric dryer more affects my bill then the tankless ever will, which only runs when you're taking a shower doing the dishes or laundry, likely less than 30-60 minutes a day tops . My annual energy cost went down after installing tankless, since I did not have to pay for oil for a few months. Not a huge amount but enough to notice. so given the choice between electric tankless or an electric tank , I will take electric tankless any day of the week
I live by myself and a I have a gas tank heater, it's likely due for replacement in the next few years and I was honestly surprised that tankless heaters are a fair bit more efficient. I don't use much hot water living alone and I'm wondering that if I'm not constantly using my hot water then I think I'm just wasting gas to heat a tank that I may only use 25-50% of it's capacity within 1 duty cycle. Not to mention my basement is 100 years old and not the most insulated. I might seriously consider going tankless with my next replacement. The lifespan is also a nice bonus to boot! Ty for the helpful info!
I installed a propane tankless water heater in my home in Alaska in the 80’s. I saved $80 a month in electricity costs. It was costing me around $20 a month for propane then. I paid just over $600 for it at the time. It paid for itself in the first year. I’ve saved massive on electric bills since. True story.
Ed Peesker Mine did. I bought a good quality German brand. It was an electric model with three elements, and I estimated about $40/month in savings. It took about two years to cover the extra cost of the install, and it lasted for almost 11 years. That's approx $4300 saved. Well worth it.
I put in a navian natural gas tankless about 5 years ago. It was the best they had at the time. My gas usage went from 15 to 22 doen to 5 to 7with my total cost about 15 years for pay back. However should last at least that long and it works flawlessly. Can run a shower, do dishes and laundry at the same time. With a water softener and the way it vents the maintenance is near 0. Love it.
One benefit of the tank type is that in a power outage, natural disaster, disruption in utilities, you have a built store of potable water which you can easily access via the drain valve
These models are already old in Europe. We have condensing ones now that save more gas. It’s very rare that I come across one with a tank nowadays in the Netherlands
People have been using condensing boilers for hot water for decades. Bonus is it also works great for radiant heating and can also be used in conjunction with air handlers and coils for hot air heating of you don't want to run water heating.
A friend of mine has gone through 3 tankless units in about 11 years. They were electric units and they literally burned up about every 3-4 years. The last one almost caught fire. You figure the cost to buy (more expensive) and to flush annually, they are just too expensive compared to a tank. My last tank water heater lasted well over 20 years. It was in the house when I brought it so I really don't know how old it was.
Matt, you never mentioned up front costs. The tankless always costs more than a tank heater, at least by me. When I priced them where I live, the plumber wanted $3,300 for a tankless vs $650 for a 75 gallon tank model and $300 for installation and taking away the old one. So, before anyone can save a dime from a tankless, you have to save on the start up costs first. That might take a decade or more. There are five people in my household. A 40 gallon tank is too small. So I had a 75 gallon tank installed with a 75,000 BTU recovery rate. Trust me, two people can shower at the same time and the clothes washer too and never run out of hot water..
$3300 is a bloody rip off. Tankless heaters start as low as €800 here. And that's a combined hot water and central heating unit. If you want just a hot water unit, those are a bit harder to find but they're only a couple hundred euro, something like 350-500 for a bare basic unit. Well, I mean a $3300 unit is obviously possible, but for that kind of money you'd expect a 50kW unit that puts out 20+ litres of hot water a minute. Which is about 5 1/2 US Gal / minute and 172k BTU/h. And it'll heat your house at the same time.
I have had the same tankless water heater for over 35 years. I have saved not only at least 20% but I would have had to replace the water heater at least twice with a tank type. Three things are crucial for the successful operation of a tankless water heater. 1. Soft water 2. A good functioning water regulator. 3. A good whole house water filter. I have never had to flush my water heater because of the water softener. The regulator provides a predictable flow rate due to a constant pressure. The water filter protects the water heater from debris entering the water heater after outages when the water is restored. The water heater is still going strong after 35 years.
Yeah, that business with the water pressure regulator is important, especially where I live, as the water main pressure is around 100 psi and can spike to 140 psi. That's enough to crack plastic-body valves in dishwashers, washing machines and irrigation systems. Most people in that situation are unaware of failed regulators until it is too late. One should check the pressure regularly or install a pressure alarm. Regulators can be rebuilt in-place with kits that are readily available, but they seem to last only about 15 years between rebuilds.
I'd never install a tankless unless there was no space for anything else. Tankless always cost more over the long haul, even if you DIY every repair. Pricey electronic parts are prone to failure and some components aren't even sold. The warranty doesn't match claims of 15-20 year lifespan and control boards and sensors usuaully fail well before that. A 65+ gallon tank type can be had for fairly cheap if you need THAT much hot water (compared to tankless), and if you do the maintenance (easier than tankless) it'll last 15 years no problems NOT costing you for service calls and parts except for the thermocouple but thats simple and cheap. Tanklife bro.
the new energy efficient tanks have come a long way in efficiency. I know a lot of people who get the cheapest tank they can because they know they will have to replace it in 5 years because of the city water
I agree 100% so called energy efficient tanks save you about 4-6 dollars a month...if that...just drink water at your next eating-out....there, you just off-set the cost.
Had a Rinnai tankless for 8 years now. Aside from 1 hour and 3 gallons of vinegar to flush it every 6 months, it cut my monthly energy costs to 1/3 of the two 50 gallon tanks that it replaced. And I paid $699 for it at Costco at the time.
That's the first deterring argument; tank heaters can lead to grunting. Not to mention the sneaky mind association snuck in there: getting tank heater > pushing shopping cart > you become homeless.
I have a "Paloma #6" made in Nagoya, Japan that I bought for my recreational property in 1988. It still works, and it spent its first 6 years hanging off a tree to supply hot water for my "al fresco" shower before the cottage got built. The only maintenance was replace an insulated wire on the piezo ignition wire because I forgot to check for a squirrel nest before firing it up one spring. It caught fire but but was easily fixable. I don't know about the new equipment that is available now but my little gem still provides a reliable stream of water.
I went tankless to gain floor space. If you have people in your house that runs the hot water heater out and want to save, it might be better to get a smaller tank with equal wattage. It'll force them out of the shower sooner and the smaller tank will recover quicker.
How about talking about hybrid systems, where you combine a "low" temp tank unit to supply individually placed small electric and gas tankless units that are placed wherever hot water is needed.
You must take into account the fact that the "Tankless" water heater has a much higher energy input. Why? Because it heats the water up fast instead of slowly like a storage tank unit. A regular electric 50 gal water heater might be using a 4 to 5 kw heating element. A tankless unit would take more amps to do the same job faster. The breaker for the water heater (NOT HOT WATER HEATER) will probably have to be replaced with a larger breaker. Are you a licensed electrician? If not, you will need one. The same holds for a gas fired unit. The gas line might have to be replaced with a larger pipe. Another thing: The "Tankless" water heater does not like to run hot water at a slow trickle (like some men do when shaving). It requires a minimum flow rate to turn on the heating element. So, you would have to run the hot water faster than you might like. I know all this stuff as an Engineer who specified lots of these units over the years.
True, mine needs most of the running line pressure to kick on the heat , not a big deal if you are shaving, just use some residual heated water in the lines.
You would think some sort of "best of both worlds" compromise would exist, like a hot water tank that leads into tankless heater, so that you could have the benefits of both. The tankless heater could just not kick on at all until cold water starts flowing into it.
I was evaluating these back when you published this but just found your channel today. At the time, it would have cost me about $3000 MORE to install the tankless. With two of us, the return was longer than I plan to be in the house. It wasn't worth it. Moving from the then-24-year-old 40-gallon tank that came with the house to a new 50-gallon tank, all our comfort needs have been met. While tankless might have helped with eventual resale, I do not think we'll be hurting to sell.
@@AnX8765 if it's gas you had hot water. Electric is a different issue. I would never buy an electric tankless. They use too much electric when the rates are higher. You need 120 amps of electric for an average home. You can buy 80 amp units but the water won't be as hot as a 120 amp model. 30 amp units are only for sinks. We had an instant hot water heater but ours had a stone lined tank. That's what they used in the early fifties. Our water softener matched the water heater. It too was stone lined. It also used table salt. You had to buy 2 twenty five pound bags. Well back to the water heater. There was a coil inside the heater and after 20 years the coil needed replaced. It was made of copper and with brass fittings. The gas flame went up the center of the coil you can see the flame if you removed the cover. You had instant hot water when it was running. The water in the tank could stay hot for hours before the water needed reheated. I guess the water cycled though the tank I was too young to ask my dad how the tank worked all I knew we always had hot water.
I had one installed in 2005. By 2007. By 2007 the heat exchanger had started leaking on it. It was going to cost me $1,500 to have a "qualified technician" come out an diagnose my problem before the manufacturer would honor their 10 year warranty. Ripped it out and put a USED 50 gal gas water heater in. No more problems, and plenty of hot water for our family of 4.
Dont scare me like that ☝ I bought my first house 2 yrs ago and had a Navien 180A installed. There was already a tankless installed, the outer cover look as though it was dropped hard. Repair man couldnt get it to work right and it kept shooting flame like a flame thrower. (He did all that he could, even spoke with the manufactors) so I replaced it. Id be royally kicked if something happens to it. Heck, I bought all new black stainless steal appliances and after a year, the motherboard to the gas stove went out. The tech said there was a recall due to steam from cooking.
USA quality. In Europe I have one from Junkers for over 20 years. 3 repairs under 100$ each (some gaskets and flow regulator). Never cleaned, and I have hard water. Works great.
It’s a tough, case by case call. Range of heating comes in play in winter. Recirc pumps nuke any savings benefit on tankless. We are also noticing circuitboard failure on remodels in hot attics on tankless units along with combustion air issues in such heat. I now waive liability for such installations. The best setup we’ve done is a tankless with a second, unheated (unless needed as a backup), valved, well insulated holding tank with the recirc on the holding tank.
@ Sid Burnham, Regardless whether you have a holding tank or not, you're still going to lose the same amount of heat from the pipes themselves with a circulator pump.
Josh Hayl ...with 35 years experience in the million plus market over the Southeast and with demanding clients that value quality over cost, it works best. Gas tankless heats nothing without electrical power. Shallow burial of water lines in the Southeast lowers incoming water temps in winter limiting output temperature. While most of our projects have backup generators of some form, we still suggest adding a tank and recirc if budget (if there is one) allows. While I haven’t verified it, I suspect that gas usage is the same or less as the tank holds temps very well without using power or gas.
Sid, have you plumbed two tankless in series? We are on a well in Teton Valley, ID. Water comes out of the ground at 42 degrees. Our tank is twelve years old and I’ve been thinking of going tankless but the delta T is too great for a single unit. Thoughts?
I had a nat.gas 40 gal tank. Had it for 44 years and it did not need to be replaced ... I removed the thermocouple, used a bit of sandpaper on the thermocouple and put the same unit back in and it worked again....I never changed the anode or never ever drained it and it continued to work just fine.(but was changed out because plumbers were freaking out that it was still original equipment) so looked into tankless and inquired at multiple places about it....the places said the tankless were ripped out after a year for a tank type. People did not like them. So, I went with a tank electric this time(as I needed a gas fitter to hook up the gas unit@$100.) I did disassemble the gas hotwater tank that was in there originally, and could have gone to 60 years on that tank easy. There was no rust or weak spots in the tank. My electric tank maybe will last 10 years. They are making them cheaper. Am sad. Oh well.
for $700 bucks, you can find electric water heaters with 316L stainless tanks and a lifetime warranty. For a gas tanked water heater with a stainless tank, you're looking at a commercial unit that starts at 3 grand. So you're not doomed if you want a good electric water heater.
I would not use electric for anything because it drives your electric bill up too much. I have had a all electric bldg in the past and while it might have seemed alright from the start when winter came especially we discovered that gas was much cheaper and would have been a better choice. We didn't have one but good luck hope it works out for you, just wanted to tell you my electric vs gas nightmare.
Perhaps I missed it but the initial cost of investment as a part of the overall cost wasn't mentioned. It's my understanding that the higher cost of installation, purchase, and maintenance, means you really save nothing over the lifetime of the product. It would seem that convenience and or space are really the only true benefits oh, but at what cost, especially the initial investment. We are probably looking at replacing the water heater in the near future and I was discussing this with my wife a couple of nights ago. I can swap out the existing water heater myself for about $600, versus having the system swapped to a tankless by a professional for about $2,800. I can buy a lot of gas for $2,200. If I can determine that it reasonable for me to do the work myself, without major modifications, it might be worth considering.
The initial investment is larger, but factor in placement of the heater to begin with. If it's in the attic, you can eliminate that 40 to 50 gallons of water sitting up there, I've even seen 70 gallon units in attics. As a professional I recommend replacing attic units every 10 years regardless of condition. If a tankless is well maintained the life expectancy will double and in some cases be more. Personally I recommend Navian, thier heat exchanger is stainless rather than copper. Means they get a 15 year heat exchanger warranty over Rheems 10 years in residential applications. Either way that beats the standard 6 years for tank units. What was also failed to be mentioned is a tank maintains a set temperature....all the time (outside of vacation settings, but no one does that). Tankless only heats when called on, so while you are out enjoying your Disney experience your tank keeps on kicking to maintain, While a tankless just waits patiently. As far as maintenance, I tend to offer a discount on the first flush, with the offer of educating the customer on the how to and the cost of the equipment and chemicals used. I want them to be able to do it themselves. I understand that tankless isn't for everyone, I believe educating a customer on the ups and downs of both units and not offering an opinion on either is best. I'm probably all over the place, but yes initially cost is higher, but sometimes it's better to spend the money on a tankless for safety reasons. Now if the heater is electric, it's better to stick with the tank.
You can buy a nice unit for $700 that handles 8 gpm. I've bought three. 1 for a log cabin (installed myself) 1 for my main home to handle the hot water and 1 for the heat (baseboard circulating). They charged me $2,400 for their best unit with a remote thermometer (just the hot water). It also included a bracket and water lines to a second machine that I installed for the heat (they are stacked using the same exhaust). My gas bill (for just the hot water and gas dryer) was $5/mo. I live in New England and my heat brings it up to $100/mo. during the winter. BUT I save $2,200 a year off of oil AND I don't have to pay for annual service fees. Not to mention I don't have to ever deal with running out of oil and paying an "emergency" fee. It's relatively simple to install but I don't mess with gas lines so I recommend having a plumber run all the lines (including electricity and you installing it on the wall and venting it yourself. Not sure why but it can save you a grand....
@@joshuaheath9003 I too am a plumber and agree with most of what your saying, The Rheem has a 12yr warranty and you get a whole new unit no questions asked if the heat exchanger fails. Copper has better heat transfer and the high efficiency unit has a stainless steel secondary heat exchanger. Both units are very good products but I have had great reliability with Rheem.
Sorry Matt - but the incentive we have in San Diego, CA, for getting a Tankless unit is the $500 rebate. Our water cost is HUGE out here as well, so the cost associated with water savings is also significant. Still love your videos and I'm always learning. Thanks.
Yes the tankless WH does need to be flushed at some point, depending on your water hardness, but on the tank WH, the sediment just builds up inside, reducing it's efficiency. You could drain the tank once in a while, but nobody does that. I switched from tank to tankless, I save on gas, save on space, the lag time is the same, and I don't have to worry about it rupturing while I'm away.
Great video. Hi from the U.K., if you go for “tankless” or as we call them “Combi boilers”, the average age before they need replacing is about 15 years or so. At least here in the U.K. that is. They also don’t work with solar P.V. Very well. If you have a tank you can heat the water for pretty much free 9 months of the year if you use solar P.V. So that’s a huge saving of energy be it gas, oil or electric heated tank. I have both systems in my properties and both have there good and bad points. For my house I use a tank, but for my holiday let I use a Combi as guests want lots of hot water without running out. It is more expensive to run though.
We do have 'combi' tank here in the US but they operate differently than a tank-less water heater. Over here combi tanks are used in conjunction with a hydronic heating system, such as hot water boilers.
Solar energy.... Wind energy.... Storage batteries.... Yes.... The camping instant hot water versions are fine for solar since they have internal batteries which could be recharged, but I doubt any of the others types of instant hot water heaters would be a good idea. Maybe a gas version with a Piezo ignition system. If you are using wind or solar, than a tank system with a 12 volt element plugged into your water tank is probably a better way to go. Extra power above what your storage batteries can hold would go into heating your hot water. At least, that is the theory...
Tankless’s are good for small homes and condos where there’s only one or two people and they pay their own water bill. NEVER!!! put a tankless in a rental unit (like a 3 family etc..) you pay the water bill and yes they usually pay the fuel- but! when it comes to someone standing in the shower for an hour a day... water bill wins every time! Also you can’t put a “instant hot” recirculating system on a tankless... not without modifying it to have a storage tank to circulate the water with... most tankless work on flow and a domestic recirculating pump won’t get it to fire, and even if it could- you’d be wasting fuel. And I don’t care why anyone tells you- if you have a big family with multiple bathrooms you WILL feel a temperature change when you’re in the shower and other hot water fixtures are being used on and off. Tankless are good for small homes, condos, and mobile homes and only if owner occupied... otherwise do you self a favor and stick with a tank... oh and if you are renting a one bedroom to someone- a 30 gallon is PLENTY! Your paying for it! Sincerely- a licensed plumber 🧐
@@oakjim206 Not always. Consider a rental that's on well and septic. The luxury of endless hot water leads to hour long showers... with the resultant overloaded septic bed and potentially a dry well. Not good. Also, many leases include water, tenant pays gas, electricity and phone/internet/cable.
Hey. Matt another benefit is CO2 output. A tankless WH is about 93% to 95% efficient while tank unit is 60 to 65% efficient saving on CO2 output. The biggest drawback to a tankless WH is cost. I’ve been quoted $3500 to $4000 for a 199,000 BTU system installed. My last gas WH installed 1.5 years ago was $1000. Thanks. Keep up the good work.
You can’t compare the energy stickers from different years for the $ amount. You need to look at what they are assuming for the cost per therm. A 50 gallon water heater uses about 1/5 the gas when it’s running versus a tankless. Grant it that a tankless only runs when needed, but I would doubt you would save much if anything on gas usage. Plus they are 2.5X the cost, not to mention they need electricity and new exhaust duct.
true, but you can read that off the labels. The tankless unit's label assumed $1.09/therm (pause at 0:55) and had an estimated annual cost of $225. So it's assuming the unit uses 206 therm/year. At 1:42 we see the tank unit estimated as using 258 therm/year at a cost of $315, for a rate of $1.22/therm. This is roughly a 10% correction, and it's not in favor of the tankless unit.
johnmcaraher - You are better at hitting the pause button than me! So if we go with the more recent $1.09/therm the tankless saves you about $57/yr. It would be 10 years to break even (assuming both last 10years), but that doesn’t include the original installation costs of the tankless unit (new exhaust and electrical connections). Doesn’t seem worth it to me as there are only 2 in my house and we never run out of hot water with a conventional 50 gal tank.
worth noting is that the btu rating on the tankless is the maximum amount. If there is a lower water flow rate than the maximum (varies given input/output water temps) then it'll use less gas. If you have a small household without much water use, then your tankless may never open the valves enough to let the rated maximum gas flow go through the burner.
Justin Crediblename - Good point! . Conventional tank style is just on or off and I was applying that logic to the tankless. I wasn’t aware that they varied the gas flow, but that makes sense.
One of my neighbors has tankless. With the recent weather, his pipes froze and without electricity, they failed him. I am not an expert nor a plumber so I don’t know the technical workings of a tankless, but my pipes didn’t freeze and my gas heated tanks worked great without power for many days. Blessed....
I love my tankless. As soon as I started using mine. My electric bill dropped 50.00 a month since I'm not heating water 24/7. That's one thing you didn't mention. ☺
My grandma had a gas water heater in her house. The entire time I lived with her I never remember having any issues with it as far as maintenance. When her house burned down we were able to save the old one and a friend of ours put it in his moms house and it still works fine today. I checked the date on it and it was built in 1986 when the house was built. Her new house has electric water heater and we will see how long it last.
I enjoyed your videos - thank you! Another factor regarding savings or cost is the price of water. I have tankless water heater with a built in circulating pump of which saves on cost of my water bill.
I appreciate this video showing pros and cons. My house has no gas so I was looking at an electric tankless. I was looking at $600 or more for the wiring upgrade required. That and some other reasons made me pass on tankless for now. Maybe in the future though.
I’d highly recommend you check out the heat pump water heater‘s. Rheem is now on their fourth or fifth generation and they’re very efficient. Use half the electricity of a standard electric tank. I put a generation one in a house seven years ago and it is still going strong.
SyberPrepper .... I am a Journeyman Plumber and DO NOT go electric tankless... you need 150 amps almost another complete panel.... go tank type and I recommend Bradford White. Peace ✌️
Agree on the heat pump electric tank water heater. If you ever look into going solar, it will reduce your maximum electrical load at any given time of day as well. Electric tankless water heaters are beasts for the short time that they run and can require a massive power draw. As the other commenter suggested, if you're looking for a whole-house model, you may negate any savings due to the possibility of needing to upgrade your electrical circuits just to run it in the first place.
I bought and installed my Sears Kenmore Roto-swirl Tank electric water heater 22 years ago and it is still going strong. As a matter of fact, it still has the two original heating elements in it. It had a either a 9 or 12 year warranty, I can't remember which.
I wanted to go tankless but the cost of getting a plumber to completely redo the pipes as compared with installing the new tank myself with a slight modification of the old pipes where the old tank was, became price prohibitive.
+rodger macdonald are you SUUUURRE it's more expensive than replacing the gas main to handle the increased BTU demand at the gas tankless water heater? are you SURRREE it's more expensive than the monthly increase in cost because you had to have a gas meter that'll dish out over 250k btus/hr?
Someone else probably brought this up, but I didn't hear you talk about the INITIAL COST to install a tankless, which is anywhere from 2-4 times as much as a standard water heater, which makes your return on investment negligible. More cool factor than practical, IMHO.
In the northeast the savings on using a tankless water heater for home heating is significant. When i switched from oil to gas in 2016 my heating/hot water bill went down about 40%. Some of that was because natural gas is slightly cheaper than oil and much less volatile but the savings really makes a difference. If you were using oil, you needed a maintenance contract on your heating system anyway, since oil burns very dirty compared to gas. The maintenance contract on the tankless heater is less and includes a yearly flush. It was an expensive proposition since it included removing the 30 year old oil fired boiler and oil tank but definitely worth it.
have been plumber for over 20yrs. install a tankless water heater in my house nov 17' navien npe 240a. family of 5 with 3 teenage kids. have had one problem on 2nd floor when shower is used there is a pressure drop when the other 2 showers are being used. i did have pressure drop when i had tank type tank also. if you are a person that likes saved on gas when tankless is the way to go. they do make very ultra high efficient tank water heaters out there if you like have 75 gallons on hand. however i have seen a lot of heaters leak on the floor and make big mess all over he basement area or into the finished area. yes a tankless water heater does cost more to install then a standard tank. yes there is maintenance to do on a tanklees water heater but you should do maintenance on tank types also. if people out there think you should not go maintenance on a tank type you are wrong. maintenance helps both style tanks last a hole lot longer. and for saving i'm saving 20-25% per month during the non-heating months here in michigan. is tankless the best answer for every one out, no. however you have to make your best decision for your home. base on the set up of the tanklees heater you will have to wait for the hot to come the tap or you can install return line to the far point of the house. people need to get all the info on tanklees heaters and the all the options with them to make a good decision.
well said...except a 20 yr. plumber should know it's not a pressure problem...it's a volume problem (under-sized piping) unless you have street pressure under say....30 lbs....like I do. You can have 100 lbs pushing...but if it's going through a pin hole...yer not gunna get much water.
21 years ago I had a tankless water heater installed it was a Bosch Aquastar you do save money on gas because you don't have to heat water when you're not using it, but I love that until it broke down 1 time in 21 years I still love and appreciate the tankless water heater that has been around a lot longer than people think they are wonderful you never run out of water, after my husband who at the time did not know how to install one came home and so how incredibly easy it was to install he said he would do the next one I think 21 years is a very good the length of time only costing me $629 21 years ago and they're really not much more now, especially if you have someone with a license who knows how to put them in and is a friend who installs cheaper love my tankless!!! Don't be afraid to try something new just make sure they install it right
@@debbiemiller9219 Nice to hear someone is having good luck with their tankless. Once you have one, properly plumbed (correct size gas line and stainless steel vent) it's a no brainer to replace it. Some floor plans are just not cost efficient to increase the gas line and a new vent...some are. One of my many clients buys and remodels houses on a volume basis. 50 houses last year and 60 in 2017. In the area he shops houses the water is prolly above average in hardness so I have replaced several in the Arco stations he's in partners with and I had to call the manufacturer on several that were still under warranty.(very large hot water demand) Most of the houses he buys with tankless are eventually replaced with tank type. (a good portion of the houses are rented out. Does't want the phone calls). We are partners in a beach front house on the Balboa peninsula and it has an outdoor tankless due to space shortage. It's about 6 years old and works great. Can't believe the salty air hasn't devoured it yet... although... the problems are usually from within. We use the tap water to make coffee because it tastes fine and low hardness. Thx for the "civil" reply.
What is your incoming PSI. I had 118. Nothing ever hammered but at 70 PSI it does. I think the ideal is around 90 PSI. I need to replace that damn pressure reducer as soon as I find one that will do 90 PSI.
100% correct Mike. I designed and installed my own system for under $1000. I'm not a plumber but I can read code manuals to know how to exceed code requirements for water and gas (had to upsize the gas lines, but was easy enough. I bought a condensing Rinnai RU98iN from Costco for $699, Taco circulator pump at supplyhouse.com, and a 12 gallon electric water heater (element and thermostat removed) at Lowes. I have tankless set to override to output and do 140F water (super hot), and a taco pump circulating it into a 12 gallon tank. So the tankless' job is solely to keep the tank at 140F. Tank system holds 140F water, and then the whole house draws out of that 140F water tank via a tempering valve set to 120. New cold water coming into the system enters at a T between the water tank and the tankless cold draw. So when taco pump is running, most/all incoming cold water goes first pass through the tankless, and then into the 12 gallon tank. Otherwise it flows the other way directly into the tank. I have a ESP8266 reading a hall effect flow meter on the cold line, and a Type K thermocouple on the tank. When cold water flows into the system, the circulator pump is turned on, keeping a 140F loop moving water through the tankless. When cold water isn't flowing into the system, its all about keeping the 12 gallon tank hot. On at 135F off at 138F. Granted, I will agree this was done for luxury and not for economy, even though it is more efficient than what it replaced. This replaced two old Rheem 50 gallon natural gas tank WHs from 1996. My natural gas bill is now 1/3 what those old worn out tanks cost per month. With a 60 gallon jacuzzi tub in the master bath, and all other bedrooms having their own bath, and two other half baths, and hot/cold taps on the outside, sorry wasn't going to go with another set of tanks. I want no limits, no guessing. NOT "nearly" unlimited hot water. NOT "virtually" unlimited hot water. Truly unlimited hot water...
I have a Navien combi boiler, heats all my domestic hot water and floor heat for about $85.00 a month on a 2600 sq. foot house. Best investment I have ever made.
My tankless unit is over 20 years old. Only had to flush it once in that time city water here is very good. Only issue has the Cottrell board go out about 5 years ago. Replaced that. No worry about the tank leaking.
The flushing annually for hard water conditions is a "wash". You should be flushing and inspecting your anode rod on a traditional tank annually as well as on a tankless system.
Staying in a cottage right now with the SMALLEST hot water heater I’ve ever seen so I’m fantasizing about tankless and how long my fantasy shower would be.
You should be just fine with a regular water heater...it would be a bad idea to spend that much money on a tankless for such a small place...you just need an Aqua hut to put a bigger water heater outside...or find somewhere to put a 40 gallon w.h. like under the house....buy check out the aqua hut to protect it from winter
As an electrician I have increased the whole electric service for the house to 200A for many customers who want a tankless water heater. They did not want to install water restrictors on the water line so that they could take a real shower instead of a wimpy one. Before you install a triple unit remember it may require 96 amps alone for the tankless. A tank type uses only 18.75 amps but for a lot longer. Be sure you have an extra 77 amps of electric before you spend a lot of money to change your service.
@@hankkline7300 ah yeah and I just heard that CA is banning natural gas? Hard to believe the most environmentally friendly energy storage is being banned.
Heat pump water heaters are fine if you can afford the additional cost, it will take a long time to recover the extra expense. I went for 20 years with a heat recovery unit on my air conditioner/ heat pump. I never even turned my 50 gallon water heater breaker on. The new heat pumps don't put out enough waste heat to make this option effective.@@roger1818
Yesterday my water heater of 14 years died. I fed her soft water all her life and kept her well maintained but in the end father time took her. My house doesn't have gas, so I researched electric tankless water heaters. After looking at the electrical requirements, maintenance requirements and install requirements, I decided against it for now. As an electrician I calculated my current service power draw. Tank water heater draws 4500 watts vs. 27000 watts for tankless when it's running. Cutting holes in the wall to run all the wires and then having to patch, texture and repaint also adds to the cost if you DIY of about $300 plus 6 hours of labor. Replacing my water heater took me about an hour and cost me under $500 for a 50 gallon water heater verses about $900 for tankless plus materials to install. Know what you are getting into before you go electric tankless. If you want others to install it for you, you will need an electrician first, then a plumber, and finally a wall patcher / painter so estimate about $2000 total cost. Finally, this is a proactive, not reactive job. If your water heater goes out and you have to hire others to go tankless, you might not have hot water for a while.
If you're a man worth his salt, you can do all of the install yourself. My Marey tankless requires 18000 watts. Not a big deal if you don't have the Bradey Bunch living with you.
If I may add, here in canada where it gets very cold like in winter right now,-30C , the performance of tankless will be dramatically reduced as it will be hard to convert very cold water coming in from the city to +60c water in seconds. And so it will not work as well.
TheBostonstapler - Too true. A friend just bought a townhouse here in Toronto and it has tankless hot water (that also provides heat via a heat exchange radiator to provide hot air for the HVAC system). It takes forever for hot water to arrive at the kitchen or powder room taps (as the unit is 2 floors above that level) When the dishwasher was first run, we were not even sure it was plumbed correctly, as it seemed that it never got any hot water. In hindsight, I would have suggesting they install a small 5 gallon electric hot water tank under the kitchen counter, to supply the kitchen tapset, the powder room tapset, and the main bathroom tapset one level up. As it is now you need to let the water run a fair bit to get hot water, wasting a lot of water in the process.
Vern C Watch the video again looking for the circulation pump Matt shows which will reduce the time to about 30 seconds which is the time it takes to have the water the short distance from the pump to the tap or shower head.
do you not need a line of water supply from the last sink or shower all the way down to the tankless system for the pump? or else how will the water circulate ?
Brian - this kind of defeats the purpose of tankless. By having a pump running at certain times, you are heating up the water in a loop, without regard to any end user demand. It`s not the distance from the pump to the device, it is set up in a closed loop that has hot water constantly circulating regadless of demand, and the devices are spokes off of that wheel, only 2 feet of pipe away from hot water.
Vern C Obviously you are not quite understanding the purpose of the pump. Those pumps are now required in many cities as per code. When the person gets up in the morning, they go to take a shower. The water in the hot water line is cold from the Water Heater to the shower head. A Timer or a Push-Button Switch will start the pump. The Circulating Pump pumps the water until there is hot water in the bathroom.
Had my natural gas tankless since 2002 with no issue. I have city water and a water softener though. 2 other advantages are: I set mine at 108 instead of 120 for a tank since it doesn't run out. No scalding water for kids and still hotter than you need for a bath or in the shower. Another bonus is to use the hot water for cooking to reduce boiling time over starting with cold. Water comes out of tap clear and fresh unlike when I had a tank style.
