Practice makes perfect. Great presentation and excellent shooting. People need to realize they have to master this skill and equipment. Wad cutters are still relevant today. When in doubt go old school.
I noticed you say (when in doubt go old school) on multiple other videos years apart from each other. That caught my attention, so I had to check for your comments to see, and sure enough 😊
Lovely video! I really like to see these kinds of videos, with no bluster or fluff and just get some knowledge and have my day brightened by someone with genuine enthusiasm. Many thanks.
It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats with my T-16 on Alderon and they are about two meters in size. Actually, nice shooting. With my Model 15 Smith and mild loads, I can hit 12 oz. water bottles at 100 yards without a problem. It's all in the ammo, patience and practice.
Womp Rats are indigenous to Tatooine, NOT Alderaan! I used to make some outrageous hits at 100 yards with my Grandad's Model 14 when I was a kid! My personal best was empty cardboard 50 rd .22LR boxes at 100 yards. We used Lyman/Keith 158 gr hardcast SWCs with Unique, Bullseye, or WW 231 powders, with CCI 500 primers. I miss that gun something fierce. But not nearly as much as I miss my Grandad!
Hitting the X ring at 100 yards even using a rest is extraordinary. Not straying left or right at that distance is exceptional. We had to shoot at 50 yards using FBI targets many years ago ( double action only of course ) and although I qualified expert it was no where near that level of accuracy. Well done..
UPDATE: I was thinking of the N-Frame when I was talking about the 6½" barrel on our sample Model 14. It's actually a 6" barrel on K-Frames and 6½" on N-Frames. Sorry for the mistake! -Roy Huntington
Consider too a .38 caliber revolver: .38 Special or .357 Magnum, especially in skilledhands, can and no doubt has, provided fresh game for the table. Next to a .22 or .32a .38 Special wadcutter remains highly effective for hunting small game: rabbit, squirrel,grouse, etc. Even for butchering livestock. Thus the historical, venerable, and versatile.38 caliber revolver can be utilized for much more than just self defense/house protection/concealed carry. CCI's classic .38 Special shot or "snake" load: No. 9shot can shred the head of a rattlesnake up close. Yes.....for the camper in the woods,desert, etc. while fishing or not, a .38 Special can fill the campfire skillet, as well asbeing a comforting companion.
+James Farmer I doubt there is a more versatile handgun than a 357 Mag, simply because it can shoot the 38 Special. For general purpose use, the 38 Special is one of the finest cartridges of all time, hand loadable from mild to wild. Add a lever action rifle to the revolvers, and you have a perfect 38/357 combination for nearly any purpose under the sun! Although if I needed a handgun to handle anything, any size, anywhere, anytime, I think I'd still pick up a good single action revolver in 45 Colt loaded to traditional specs of 255gr bullet at 1000 fps. Wears comfortably on the belt, is controllable, yet powerful enough to kill anything in front of it to an open-sight handgun radius of 100yds!
James Farmer it is obvious you grew up like I did. A simple 38 will kill a deer just fine unless using round nose bullets. It is slow enough to not destroy edibles like squirrels, rabbits etc and is phenomenally accurate. The wadcutters were my only available rounds for hunting and they’re good for everything softer than pigs. Don’t shoot pigs with it unless a climbable tree is close. Javalinas are no match for a decently placed shot, but they’re not pigs or anywhere near as tough😅
@@63DW89A I like my antique Gasser revolver just because it is the only antique revolver that can be loaded to fire the 310 grain LRN bullet at 900 fps which is good enough to drop an elk with no follow up shots needed!
Love it. Some years ago I had a lot of fun popping long range stuff with a 7.5" Blackhawk with 250gr LRNFP 45colt Lasercast handloads running about 850 fps muzzle. Still plenty of power at good distance. 60-80 yards, bustin' clays and popping 5-gal buckets. Very easy recoil, good sight radius, and hundreds of rounds of trying makes for a good shooter.
Usually, when someone says "...you can't hit with a ... [enter item or condition to be slandered here]..." what is really meant is "I can't hit anything at all". Roy, six years after this video, hello from Archie from Oceanside.
I have the same snubby - model 640-1 Pro Series. I like it a lot! Talking about hunting - I killed my first rabbit with a 4" Smith (and my first squirrel with a recurve bow) I have recently started carrying a revolver again and have decided to carry it with wadcutters for my defensive load. The recoil is light enough to let me put fist size groups on target at 7 yards, at respectable speed. I also always carry my LCP in one pocket and 2 spare mags in the other. (I do not carry any spare ammo for the 5-shooter, since I always have the Jim Cirillo NY reload on me - although his was usually a second model 10 revolver) Nice shooting BTW. I am not able to get any type of grouping at 100 yards with my model 640-1 (I am all over the B-27, - although with the model 637 in single action, I can keep them in a 15" group)
This is good , i enjoyed this demo .. I also have enjoyed loading and firing full wadcutters in my S&W 586 , in fact i just ordered a bulk order of wadcutter bullets , this time instead of going to more 148 grain i bought 155 grain full wadcutter bullets ..In the past i have never fired the full wadcutter beyond 50 yards at the range i go to .. You fired some good groups at 100 yards and did really well , you have me inspired to try the 100 yards mark now .. The full wadcutter bullets are like launching a brick through the air ..See what i can learn from doing that ..I may impress myself with the results ..Yes i agree the wadcutter bullet is a great small game bullet and i have done that during wild grouse season here in the pacific northwest , wadcutter bullet takes a wild chicken out of a tree very well...
the vertical dispersion could just be attributed to velocity difference between shots. The horizontal dispersion of the shots is just amazing at a hundred yards. Some military men couldn't make those groups with their field rifles.
Moral to the story is longer barrel is more velocity, and accuracy 6inch barrel. Short barrels are good for close encounters. One clearly out preformed the other being the short barrel.
Just found this channel, excellent production, and some thoughtful shooting to dispel the myths re snubbie accuracy. Lucky man to have this range in your back garden! Just subscribed, thanks for the quality video.
great video roy , proves not a great deal of difference from barrel length.. and at 100 yards is incredible what can be achieved , i know some target shhoters cant even do that at 25 yards .. thanks for posting this video
Yes it is easier to hold a more precise citing alignment when the sites are for their part. That is the only difference. I and a 2-inch Smith that I have shot 4-inch groups at 50 yards on a regular basis. Doesn't really matter the load. I had a 4-in 357 security 6 that I was shooting for in groups at 100 yards with a load that the gun happened to like, and that was a double action. The rifling is not substantially different between those two guns, if it is different at all. What is happening, is that the bullet is going so much slower from the two in that the rifling speed the speed at which the projectile is spinning. Is actually destabilizing it as it flies. Remember that the Hollow base wadcutter is much heavier at one end than the other and the tail probably started to wag. Once that happens the air will push it whichever direction it had starts to fly and it's constantly rotating, but because it is also falling it will cause a vertical string.
Usually lower velocity loads are more accurate than high velocity loads too, in revolvers especially. I used a Ransom Rest one time and got identical groups at 25 yards from a 2.5” Model 19 and a 6” Model 15. Roy
People sometimes forget just what revolvers are capable of. It was not uncommon for me to get half dollar size groups at 15 yds with a 2.5" 66 when i was a cop, on the off duty gun qual shoot (i used to wear it to court in a black floral carved El Paso Saddlery pancake holster, but that's another story). This was mostly with 38 +p's; i seldom buy wadcutters. Among the inevitable comments of "what do you do, sleep with that thing?", i would smile and remind them that any good revolver can do it, and i usually only shot the gun for off duty quals, which were twice per yr at most. When i first did it, i hadn't touched the gun in a couple of years. Never understimate a good revolver. STAY SAFE!!
once velocity drops to a certain level you get tumble, but not bad for a short barrel, shooting air guns we see wobble of pellets in our scope as velocity decreases, for all pellets and bullets it at different velocities, what we do is back up in distance to find where the pellet stops the key hole effect caused by wobble after its mid range trajectory, the mid range trajectory is the "sweet spot" of accuracy when the round hasnt yet got effected by more air pressure on top of the round then below the round
I got my pistol permit in 1990 and I had a new Taurus model 85 38 special stainless snub nose.. 21 Oz. I purchased in 1985.. back then in 1990 my gun range had Carol reloading company reloaded Wad cutters $3.50 for 50 rounds and you got 50 cents returned for your brass! I did lots and lots and lots of practice.. with that snub nose and got very proficient!
It's interesting that you didn't mention the incredible fps drop and pressure loss from the smaller barrel. The longer barrel is more accurate because the pressure is allowed to build and is traveling alot faster than the smaller barrel
100 yards it may not be minuet of angle but still minuet of bad guy, not that you would use it for combat or self defense at that distance, but good to know is is potentially possible
I don't think those bullets would be lethal at 100 yards. They're not moving very fast at the muzzle, and are about the only thing on the planet less aerodynamic than a bus.
Wadcutters are more effective at lower velocities than one might think, so long as they are soft lead. Less than 800 fps velocity impacting gelatin yields good wounding (equivalent to expanded hollowpoint) and deep penetration, very consistent as well. You don't need stupid loud, stupid fast, stupid recoil self defense loads. Wadcutters have proven to be more effective than a lot of 2-300 fps faster jacketed hollowpoints.
This is pretty amazing shooting at that range, especially with the double action. I have just started reloading .38 HBWC with 2.3 grns of bullseye @25 yds . When I find which one of my revolvers shoots them best, I may move the target out farther. My 68 yro eyes do have a sight picture problem with pistols because I am farsighted. It does help me shooting rifles @100 & 200 yards with iron sights though.
Good shooting! I'm just now getting into rested target shooting with my Mod 19. Can't wait to see what i can do at 100 yards...to be sure it won't be that good right away...LOL
It does increase velocity but it does not necessarily stabilize the bullet better. Bullets don't know anything about barrel length; they understand spin. With some bullets at some velocities barrel length may make a difference in stability, but that's a function of the bullet design.
@@itsapittie The carp commander is actually right. For the same twist rate you will get higher RPMs by leaving the muzzle at higher velocities. RPMs are what stabilize the bullet.
True. Every gun design has a velocity zone within which a bullet weight zone functions with good stability. Fall out of that velocity and wobble begins. Whether that is through some combo of loading, too short of barrel, or whatever the cause, the problem is RPM and how that RPM is achieved. RPM is reduced very little through flight. Forward velocity is the main thing reduced in flight.
So this ammo is basically just target training ammo? Or...? Im surprised bcuz I didn't see them until today so I just wanted to look at some vids about it
The rounds shot through the snubbie may have also begun to yaw due to the lower velocity. It actually takes a faster twist rate to stabilize a bullet the slower it is moving.
Not sure Ed. I don’t want to risk shooting over a chrono at that distance! I ran a few tries using a calculator using 750 fps at the muzzle. They said around the 700 fps mark at 100 but I don’t know for sure. Roy
Old West bullet moulds makes a 150 grain Hollow base round noze for 38. Would that load the same powder as a 148 grain Wad cutter ? [ 2 grain weight differance.]
Consider Keiths 358431 160 gr HB instead. I've been experimenting with them and like all of Keiths designs, the perform exactly the way he said they would. I realize how old this video is, and I didn't read all of the prior comments, but it would be very interesting to see this rerun with a 2 inch revolver capable of shooting single-action, like a 648 or 649. Or even a 2 inch model 15!
I don't know ballistics but just built my first rifle ,5.56 I chose a 20inch chrome lined barrel , I chose 20inch over 16 or 18 , so in my mind I could shoot further , from your video on lengths of the revolvers not affecting accuracy , doesn't my long barrel give me an advantage? Am I making sense in the understanding of the technicallities ?
If sight radius is the issue with a 38 snubby, what if you put a red dot sight on it? It would eliminate sight radius. I have thought about trying this but haven’t decided if it’s worth the money
How much velocity difference are you going to have out of those two Smiths, with 38wadcutters? Is the loss of velocity out of the short barrel what caused the key holing at 100yds? I don't really know, but it's a thought.
I think you're right about the slight keyhole issue. There isn't quite enough stability imparted to the bullet from the shorter barrel. Having said that, I've also found the S&W rifling rate will sometimes show slight elongation of wadcutter holes, even at 50 yards. A Colt Python at the same distance will show sharp, clean holes and I've always assumed the rifling rate of the Colt must meet the needs of the wadcutter load more effectively. I measured the velocity of the Federal 148-gr. target wadcutters and got an average of 630 to 650 fps from the J-Frame and around the 700 fps from the 6" Model 14. Interestingly, I also fired the same load in a 20" single-shot rifle I have chambered in .357 and got an average of 820 fps. That would make a nifty small game rifle! - Roy Huntington
There's a minimum velocity threshold that spin-stabilized bullets require for precision--when the bullet goes too slow, the wobble increases and you start getting keyholes in your target. The bullet isn't actually tumbling (please, someone, prove me wrong with slow motion photography at velocities below 400 feet per second!) but it does yaw more over a given distance. The transition to subsonic from supersonic doesn't apply here but is a well-known issue for target shooters and the reason why target .22 Long Rifle ammunition is subsonic.
Glad you enjoy it. We’ve done lots more videos like this. Just nose around through them and pick what you like. I shoot .22 rifles and .22 Magnums at distances and .22 pistols too. Roy
Barrel length by reducing it 1 ", equates to about a reduction of 50 feet per second per inch. You also have the sighting radius being more difficult with the short barrel . Twist at a hundred yards with a short barrel will cause a key hole with slower ammo.Most wad cutters are 148Gr. For some reason S&W .38 or 38/357 are a 1/16 twist regardless of barrel length.
Longer barrel gives you a higher fps! 100fps or so can make a difference on the target. The site picture does make a difference to new shooters and novice.
I like to take newbies and my model 10 PPC custom smith and 148 wadcutters.. we shoot at one gallon jugs filled with water.. they are amazed that they can hit it in 6 rounds.. often.. several times.
.38 Smith&Wesson wadcutters have pronounced jaw increasing with range ( fired at MV like 700 ft/s in firearms with usual twist rates). The bullets a statically stable but not dynamically. At range like 100 yards jaw angle is like 15°. That's confirmed by photos on spark ranges many years ago. No wonder you observed "key Holling" at 100 yards
Yeah, we used to compare them with the Colt Pythons at 50 when I shot PPC. The Colt’s bullet holes were always round and sharp while the S&W’s were often slightly oval. Of course, if that oval cut a scoring line it was a good thing! Roy
That's nice. Hickock45 also doesn't do any form of accuracy testing and is happy to show his prowess on an 80 yard gong. It's admirable but explains nothing about how accurate his firearms actually are. Bench rest is meant to set your sights and test the rifle's actual capability.
Everyone talks bad about short barreled guns, most say you can't hit anything past 20 yards (50 is the farthest example I've heard) but in reality short barrels are more accurate than long ones mechanically speaking. Your only worries are short sight radius and low muzzle velocity which may cause stability issues at long range depending on the load
If somebody tells you that 2" .38s are crap, first thing, agree and offer to take it off of their hands for $100. THEN tell them that the guns are more accurate than most shooters, after you have possession of their "inaccurate" 2" .38.
Mostly you index on the entire target, using it to center the sights. You can’t really aim at a precise point other than making your best guess while holding it. Roy
I moved from Connecticut to Ballwin, MO and I used to get the gun from Colt Industry in Hartford. My gun Colt Python is only one that hit the target at 15 yards. My 1964 old Colt Detective Special that in mint shape that I brought from some old guy does not capable to hit anything in 15 yards even an elephants in front of you. I have and used a lots of old quality ammo made from Remington from Bridgeport, CT that older than me with wad cutter and 158 Grains lead Round Nose Law Enforcement standard but the score is very horrible. I can not effort the range price in CT because they charged $23.00 per hour for using range with $750 memberships per year. The License to own gun in Connecticut is now $600.00 per four year went up from $300.00 per four year. It is very hard to become proficient in firearms in the state of Connecticut at this price range.
It has nothing to do with twist rate!. Which are about the same in both guns!. It's the longer barrel length, That kept these low power bullets at a higher velocity than the 2" barrel at 100 yards from keyholing as much!. The 6+ " barrel would have done the same thing at 125+ yard area as it loses it's velocity..More proof is seen in longer 16 to 20" 38/.357 barrels. with actual velocity gains of 200 to 400 FPS faster using the same bullets. Good video though, Having a boat load fun!!
we make the barrel less accurate, this is why any handgun should be accuracy tested from the bench with different types of rounds, at least two sets of 5 allowing barrel to cool in between shots, also at different ranges, then choose ammo for our best accuracy, then shoot two hand and compare our groups with bench accuracy, that way we cant blame the gun like so many do that never did a good long bench test of their pistol, as our groups get smaller we can save our targets to see progress in our shooting from the first day to months shooting our pistol, if gun is new we should give it a good break in period and clean often first before doing bench accuracy, or do a new gun bench accuracy test and then a few hundred shots later do a broke in bench test, for bench testing i would clean barrel and do at least two sets of 5 and allowing a short cool down, though not always necessary i do it with rifles so i do with with some fine smith and wesson revolvers like my dads model 10 and what i stated isnt the only way but just my way, hopefully i can get some land to do a 100 yard test also so my hats off to you for a great 100 yard video thats live evidence for a shorty
Hola amigo buenas tardes, compré un revólver.38 especial s&w y me dieron 6 balas como las del video, nunca las use pues las desconozco y compré dos cajas de,50 ojalá y me pueda explicar brevemente en español gracias
Agree with another person, the comparison would have been more meaningful if the small gun could also be shot single action. ALSO, using a stand to steady the gun, might bolster the proposition that the shorter barrel is just as 'accurate', but it is does not make the SHOOTER as 'accurate as the longer barrel. In other words, would have liked to see the comparison with freehand, standing. Then I guess it would bolster the counterclaim that at distance, with a short barrel, it is hard to attain personal accuracy.
