Yes, #1 is the most important, bring those speakers 2 or 3 feet out in the room and you'll be shocked how much better your system will sound, and there's a good chance that your wife will leave you, so it's a win-win, thanks for the video.
Good luck with that in many European houses! Mind you, my speakers were apparently designed to sound good close to a wall. The CEO of the company that made them is reputed to have said that anyone who designs a speaker that doesn't sound good close to a wall is an idiot. That said, I have mine about 18 inches from the wall, because I can!
SOOOO TRUE. I owned these speakers for a few months, Wharfedale diamond 12.2, and suddenly I took the time to move them away from the wall and even measure the distance and..... WOW... night and day... Huge huge difference.
Correct speaker positioning is common knowledge among audio people. It's well understood that near field reflections off of walls destroys imaging and sound staging. Speakers with wide dispersion need room to breath. Try to keep them as far from walls and corners as possible. The only compromise in doing this is you lose the richer, deeper bass response you get from border mounting.
Or some half brain dead audio exec demands the loudest album possible to the point where it just distorts into partial square waves (See Red Hot Chili Peppers Californication or Ozzie Ozzbourne's Greatest Hits).
I started my Audiophile journey about two years ago. My room is not perfect being more open on one side and I have to use the shorter side. First I purchased a pair of Revel Concerto M16’s and a good AV amp, using old speakers for surrounds. It sounded pretty good to me for music and watching TV. I added one sub and a M25 Center and the surround improved, but the music needed more. I then saw your LOTS video and learnt how to setup the subs and the sound improved a lot, thank you Ron. I then purchased an Atoll AM 100se amp a Topping D70S MQA dac and A90 using it partly as a preamp to try to improve the music side. There was a marked improvement for both surround and music. I now had a great soundstage, good center image and separation, However, the problem I had was mainly bass was not quite to right, with or without the subs. So I put in bass traps in the corners and things improved, but there was still too much vibration. I then added some diffusion panels absorption panels and wow was I happy, but there was still some vibrations, So I added some good (thicker) ceiling pyramids panels and boy I was shocked, the improvement was marked. I then added a iFi Stream replacing my computer as a source, as much for convenience as anything and this took me back, it really made a difference. Lastly, I took all the equipment including the subs and center channel out of an old style cabinet, leaving only the stereo and AV amps in a much more open rack. Then mounted the subs on a heavy but isolated plinth. Bingo, I was in heaven. For me the music now is sublime, the bass is so much better and vibrations gone for music and much less for AV. Even the surround improved to a level I never dreamed of. I am sorry about the ramble, but my point is I learnt a lot as I went along and probably got things done in the wrong order. I think I got my equipment choices ok, however, the biggest difference were using LOTS, keeping the speakers away from the wall and experimenting with room treatment. So I wholeheartedly agree with your advice, this newbie now has a setup gives him a lot of pleasure. Music I have loved for years has taken on new dimension and I have a passion for discovering more. Keep up the good work and for others like me, listen to the advice here, it will pay dividends and save you cash in the long run.
I've listened to high quality speakers from 1977 to 1997 without a sub, so I won't need to redo that test. However, I would agree that most people play their subs too loud. You shouldn't be able to point at the sub and say that's where the bass is coming from. The bass should sound like it is coming from the speakers. Thank you for the fine video. I always learn something.
My subs are just 2 onehundred watt 8 inch drivers between my mains crossed over at 65hz . it's turned up to 1/8th or just over for music and 1/4 on movies (just enuff to fill out where the bookshelf speakers start rolling off. My room is 20x40x9 open floor joists basement. That i have added stuff too over the years. Two bass traps .... some front wall corre tion. Works perfect. My room makes my stuff sound great. Makes me wonder what good stuff would sound like in my room. I hear "better" stuff at other people's place. But it never sounds as good. Room and setup for YOUR gear is key.
Hi Ron, I too am a Ron and a hifi enthusiast and have been for 46 yrs since I was 13 yrs old in 1976. Thanks for posting! Very informative and fun to watch.
I like using a sub, thing is when I do you can't tell. I worked in nightclubs for years but I don't want to live in one. I use a sub to reinforce the bottom end, not shake the windows. Usually the only way I can tell the sub is working is when I turn it off. When it's off, there's something missing, not much, just that subtle difference that makes all the difference.
So many people think the sub should be the loudest but like you say its suppose to play the lower end your speakers won't play. It also helps your amp run cleaner because its not having to produce bass. Also the bass should sound like it's coming from your main speakers not the sub itself.
@@mmmadog the bass should sound like it’s coming from wherever in the mix the engineer decided to place it. And if you’re really trying to run a good 2ch setup, it’s generally better to run your mains full range, then run full range(preamp output or speaker/high level output) to sub, crossed over super low ~40 hz, so it picks up just where your mains begin to naturally drop off. The best sub integration into a system I’ve heard is done this way.
You're doing it right. When integrating a sub, I turn it up in small increments, till I hear it clearly, and then back down until the point where it seems to disappear.
My system is a really odd smorgasbord system. A JVC AX-R551 amp from 1989, a set of Klipsch Quattro speakers from the late 80’s set about a foot away from the wall and somewhat angled for reflection, a 1978 Sanyo TP1010 turntable and a Mac mini computer attached. They play really nicely together.
It is too bad we don't have audio visual stores anymore. I use to love going in and listening and watching the latest gear. Many people these days will never get the experience of hearing the fidelity differences between all the different types of high end gear.
To be honest with you there is a lot of places that still have Hi-Fi stores, you just got to look. Where I live in Florida I do not have any Hi-Fi stores here, but within a 2-hour drive I can hit three different ones, and then if I'm willing to spread out and do a 5-hour drive I can hit at least 10 different ones. I mean obviously that seems obvious right, I don't mean for it to be a lecture but there are still dozens and hundreds and even thousands of audio retail stores out there in America and Canada and even Mexico, and to just say that they don't exist anymore is frankly a lie, and a lazy one at that. Hell you're even more lucky if you live in Europe or especially The UK or Australia or even Japan, in some parts of the world you can't spit without hitting a Hi-Fi store
There used to be a lot more for sure - had a few in Knoxville years ago. But now I have to drive to a bigger city like Nashville or Atlanta- which is usually not worth the effort when online stores like Crutchfield have such consumer friendly return policies. Some companies like SVS will even allow you to trade up your gear for higher end gear within 12 months of purchase. You get a lot more valuable experience spending a month with new gear in your home than a few minutes in a crowded hifi shop; and you’re only out 30-40 bucks or so for shipping if you decide to return.
Ron was on fire! (Especially played at 2x speed). Great tips but one overlooked but important investment that improves the sound of your system >> a nice bottle of wine. Enjoy!
Ron, Your advice is spot on. The three you mentioned that resonate with me are: 1) Room treatment ! 2) Internal parts quality (I follow Danny's advice to the letter over at GR Research), and 3) Bring the speakers into the room to minimize room effects. Two Additional Tips: a) Choose amplifier power / speaker SPL based on the size of the room - Larger rooms usually need more power or more efficient speakers or both. b) When upgrading power amplification, have an open mind regardless of topology (tube, solid state, hybrid, etc.) - Case in point: I chose a Class D integrated amp that converts all inputs (2 Toslink, 1 USB, 1 RIAA phono, and 1 analog line-in) to 24bit/192KHz digital streams prior to Class D BTL amplification - not because exotic components were used (most are COTS), but because of the designer's expertise and design philosophy conveyed by a trusted reviewer. Again, many thanks for this well timed video :)
I tried all your techniques, the speaker placement worked AMAZINGLY for me. It turned my 10 year old speakers into new, showing me sound I never heard before. Thanks to you Ron, my "pull-out" game is on point now...speaker pull out that is. Thank you!
Now you're next upgrade is the speakers, if the brand is still around, call 📞 them, let them know what you have and can the driver's be upgraded, even the crossover too, I'm a 90s car audio installer, this will improve your sound quality in your system 👌 😄 too
@@danielmoore2416 I got the Energy RC-70's and they are as good as the reviews online say. So unfortunately no upgrade packages for me. I have however been narrowing down the sound specificities that I enjoy the most and instead of upgrading to larger bombastic speakers I am going down..to more detailed, clear and deliberate sound. Such as the ML motion 20's and the Emotiva T zero ( currently on order).
@@pepeltoro444 okay 👌 if that's what's your looking for, for example, # 1 how big is the room, #2 what sound quality or dynamics are you looking for, #3 the type of music you playing 😉. It all comes down too the specifics your looking for. 2 way speakers can give you the dynamics of sound your looking for. Good luck and enjoy, ohhh I have a set of paradigm micros v3 ,Boston acoustic vr57 for surround sound 10" psb sub NAD av 743 receiver av 😀 ♥ all for jazz listening, dynamics, tonality, separation of instruments, left channel drums, sax, bass, right channel trumpet, piano, vibes,etc this all leads too sound quality, enjoy my friend.
Very refreshing to hear some great no nonsense information. I always say the room is the most component of an audio system. And as you pointed out, most people have no clue how much they are missing by having the speakers pushed up against the wall and no room treatment what so ever. I understand if it is also your living space, but I see a lot of photos on the internet where it is just a listening room.
I always take in consideration the room and environment restrictions when asked for speaker recommendations. Does your room have enough space to pull the speakers 2-3 feet out from the wall? No? Maybe consider front ported speakers. Room size? Edit: You totally covered this on #1. My bad.
You are just right! Room treatment and the position of your loudspeakers are gonna improve the sound much more than a new DAC or preamplifier. 50cm more forward or backward of your hearing position is a huge change. The toe-in of the speaker influence the soundstage and definition of what your hearing more than any component in your gear! Take your money and invest in your listening room.
I have Maggies and the first thing everyone asks, "Why are the speakers 4ft from the wall". Then I sit them down and play their music, question answered.
Its not exactly a must to have maggies far from the wall. I turned mine sideways and brought them 6’ into the room but only a foot from the sidewalls. It was nearfield listening with a huge soundstage. Almost like maggie headphones
#2 is so neglected so often. I've been to plenty of audio meetups in various peoples' places, and I've heard relatively affordable systems sound quite good because of the well-treated rooms they're in, but perhaps more often I've heard rather expensive systems sound mediocre (I suspect) because of the untreated spaces they're in. Getting some decent treatment in my space was one of the few upgrades I can say legitimately earned the "night and day improvement" cliche, and it was only a few hundred bucks (to be fair, my room is on the small side of medium).
The #1 leading cause of HiFi suckery is that you haven’t confiscated your wife’s whip and grown a real set of you know what. Get those speakers away from the wall ; )
Nobody’s hifi sucks. Hifi doesn’t suck. Just because something can be improved doesn’t mean it sucks. What is this saying to people just starting out in hifi?
Ron - mate i cant agree with you more - took me 3 months to have my speakers in my small dedicated room sounding right and im still getting wall treatments to make it even better. i just giggle to the youtube reviewers that have no idea about speaker placement and treatment. when they do speaker/equipment reviews im listening for entertainment, not for information. Keep up the good work
But what makes you think they have no idea about placement and treatment? The ones I watch do. They may shoot in a room that is untreated or place them badly, but this may very well be just because it's more photogenic that way. It doesn't necessarily mean they do their listening in a bad room. Or perhaps they intentionally test in an untreated room, because most viewers will do the same for various reasons (room treatment can be rather ugly, which may not get approved by their significant other or even their own taste. Carpets may cause allergic etc. reactions / health issues.)
@@kadajawi6567 you can tell various reviewer how they setup their speakers and equipment. Example Ron knows what he is doing - look at the speaker locations. when he shows them for display they are obviously not set up.
From an old guy who used to sell hifi and work for a manufacturer (and been in the hobby for 40 years), This is some great common sense advice. I loved the bit about what’s the best speakers…..I used to reply, what’s the best flavor and brand of ice cream, and make a similar point.
Well you should know from experience what the customer needs... The most expensive speakers they can afford. Only kidding but you don't always know what you don't know. Sometimes until you hear it, you don't know what you are looking for. About 25 years ago I did some IT work for a couple of the guys that worked in a high end audio store. Most of them had their own dedicated home theaters. One had a high end Klipsch set up (no I am not talking the cheap crap people are buying today, I am talking the really expensive stuff of the past). Another had a full M&K THX 5000 setup, another was into better quality Polk stuff. Sometimes you only know what you don't like (like the Klisch, nothing wrong with it, but I knew it just didn't grab me, while detailed it sounded completely sterile). I was going to go down the M&K route, had already bought one of the big subs and was about to spend some serious coin on some THX certified speaker when one of the guys dragged me into one of the listening rooms to listen to these new speakers they had just gotten in. They were a pair of Sonus Faber Grand Pianos. After one listen I found what I had been looking for and my love affair with neutral coated paper drivers begun. I then bought a set brought them home and experienced my first experience of speakers that needed to be broken in (they didn't sound anything like what I had heard in the showroom, I thought there was something wrong with them). And I then purchased another two sets of Sonus Faber Concertos for rear speakers (I think, started with a C from memory) and a Sonus Faber Gravis sub. I thought I had my music / home theatre needs sorted... But it wasn't long before I was craving more detail, so I sold all that gear and bought myself a set of Sonus Faber Electa Amator 2's (man those things made my ears orgasm) but alas while they had the detail I was after they still lacked the full range of a floor stander I wanted for home theatre (still regret selling them, paid $7200 only got $2300 for them should have kept them at that price for spares). That led me into buying a set of Sonus Faber Cremonas. And for quite a while I was happy with the Cremonas, but they didn't have the detail that the previous Electa Amator 2's had... When it come time to upgrade the next set of speakers in the Sonus Faber range were $40,000. And while I could afford them, I couldn't justify them to myself. That is when I decided I was paying through the nose for a pretty box, and decided since I knew what brand drivers were in the Cremonas (took a peak inside) it would just buy the next level of drivers from the manufacturer and go active with a Ground Sound DCN28 active crossover. It was about that same time I discovered these speakers called open baffle. And while I probably spent as much as the Cremonas in drivers alone, it was that next level I was looking for. So even though it took me a while to find the right forest, it still took me a long time to find the right tree, and I knew what I was mostly looking for.
@wetsox there is no end to that road bro.. remember kef brought ls50 to axpona as their flagship speaker.. yes that 1000$ speaker.. and they sound great, but will that ls50 sound as good in our system? i dont think so.. kef didnt just brought speaker did they?
Absolutely spot on about bass. My perception of bass changed the day my old amp with tone controls died. On someone's advice I bought a new one with no tone controls to replace it. What a difference. In the past I just couldn't resist the temptation to increase the bass on my old amp. Now I can hear so much more dynamic range in the bass. Way better! BTW, I'm not saying tone controls are wrong, I'm just saying that I couldn't resist cranking the bass when I had them and went on to discover more about bass that I hadn't previously experienced.
Great video, Ron. When I saw the title, I said to myself, "This is going to be a pile of radical nonsense." But all of these recommendations are spot on. The only one I haven't done, or should I say can't do, is #2: Acoustical Room Treatments. It's really not possible in my room because of a giant model railroad that runs around the outside of it. I would love to move my gear into a dedicated room, but my wife already thinks that I'm out of my mind...and of course she's correct. LOL
I know what makes the speakerx sound really good. Get one of your albums out that has two records in it; open it up. Next, take that weed that you purchased just a few days ago, grind it up and let it fall onto the inside of the record jacket. Next, start sifting through and making all the seeds flow one direction, and pick through what is left to see if there's any little tiny stems. Next take a rolling paper and roll yourself a nice little doobie. Go ahead and smoke that doobie for a while. Now put the music on that you wanted to hear, and just listen. Sounds way better.
#1 occurs for multiple reasons. First is space. Even those who own nice houses often do not have a room they can truly dedicate to having speakers in the middle of the room. Secondly, you have other people in the house who will almost certainly object to that arrangement on aesthetic grounds…. those same people will also object to bass traps hanging in the corners of your rooms, or treatments stuck to the walls.
I switched my sub off two hours ago while listening to jazz. It's quite a shock to be reminded how low my towers can go on their own. I couldn't help but wonder if I needed the sub at all. Spot on Ron on resetting the mindset once in a while
Dude, you need not only one but two subs. This Ron guy is not telling the whole story here. A pair of well tuned subs will bring you and your system to sonic bliss!!! Don’t give up on yours, just tune it and position it PROPERLY and don’t believe in everything you see on RU-vid 😉
Now I feel happy that I somehow managed to setup my subwoofer that it works in music unobtrusive but in movies gives me some nice rumble ... without letting my old people think a war broke out. It's easy to shake your room with a sub, but it's a different thing set it up just right!
Got some sliding tracks on Amazon and hung some sound deadening curtains and was biggest improvement over any thing I’ve ever done it’s like it made some of the past tweaks that didn’t yield anything come to life , it’s definitely a catalyst for everything else
Regarding number 1, this would be true, especially for side wall proximity, but with the speakers right up close to the rear wall (or front wall, whichever you call the wall behind your speaker) doesn’t have to be a problem if you are able to apply basic parametric EQ to take the bass increase from this position down. Actually, just pulling out your speakers further from the wall can affect other things like creating dips in your bass response. It’s always best to experiment with a mic and measurement software when moving speakers about.
As long as your heaving your speakers around the room, why not give the toe in angle a tweak? Speakers firing straight forwards may reduce the treble a smidge and soften the sound. On the other hand, it may increase reflections from side walls, upsetting the stereo imaging capability. It’s free and finding that perfect angle can make a huge difference.
There is a trend among many speaker manufacturers to make their speakers smaller and smaller. However, it is a trend that is bad for the music. To reproduce the full spectrum of recorded music including realistic dynamics, speakers cannot be reduced to the size of shoe boxes. There are physics at work and trying to cheat them only cheats your music.My listening room is 90 percent absorbent and with stereo cross-talk cancellation, I achieve a true 3 dimensional soundstage including the natural reverberation recorded on the source material.And, if you are serious about music, you must, i repeat. you must have a dedicated listening room.
Very True. It is the super stupid craze for miniaturization of Speakers which is destroying the Music. And, of course, the ROOM is of Paramount Importance.
Not only a dedicated a room, but one of the right dimensions. I don't care how much room treatment you put in a square room you aren't going to overcome the room nodes. So if you have the chance to build a dedicated listening room, aim as close as you can get to something like the golden ratio or one of the other ratios.
Agree with what you said, especially your number 1. I don't know how many times I have told my sister that the front speakers need to live at least a meter off any wall. "They look horrible in the middle of the room". Sorry but this is non negotiable. Spent way too much money to have this level of gear to have it sound like crap. I told her that the $5,000 they spent on their leather lounge was wasted as there in no way to sit in the sweet spot without sitting on top of the area where the remotes are stored. They are somewhat reluctant to change it. But they are not the only ones that do it. I have non audio friends that have speakers jammed between furniture and both speakers facing straight ahead, so you are listening off axis. I don't think they have ever done any critical listen to notice the difference between on and off axis. It cost nothing (except aesthetics) why wouldn't you place your speakers in the right place if you can.
One reason is that you listen to cassette tapes with the factory azimuth setting and have one setting to rule them all. Actually the player needs the azimuth setting to be mis-aligned the same way that the recorder that was used to make that particular recording was mis-aligned. If the sound quality gets way worse when you flip the mono switch to mono, that means the setting is wrong.
Re. point no. 2, and including WAF issues, a little bit can be a good place to start if fuller treatment options are not appealing at the time to a listener; and other than panels, traps, etc., very beneficial 'room treatments' can often be achieved through non-specialized changes: not setting up systems in perfectly square rooms if other options exist (look it up); adequate carpeting; some things on the walls, or next to them, even bookcases or paintings (not glass-covered pictures) around initial reflection points; some large real or fake plants; speakers not up against front walls or against side walls; removing coffee tables and other larger furniture in the listening path straight from speakers to sitting position; not sitting right against back wall; sitting at a standard listening height, not very high or low; etc. All of these changes can improve the sound you're hearing from your listening position and none of them require specialized audio treatment purchases- not that I'm knocking their reasonable use. Well-lived in- looking rooms, if not overstuffed ('over-damped'), generally sound substantially better and 'more natural' than emptier ('under-damped') rooms, or ones primarily composed of hard-wood or tiled floors, bare walls, large expanses of windows, and little else in them. ALSO, OF COURSE- ROOMS CAN BE OVER-TREATED WITH ACOUSTIC ELEMENTS- LESS IS OFTEN MORE- For example, Audio Connection's rooms at their store in Verona, NJ for their higher-end systems (full disclosure- I have no business or personal connection with them, and have never bought from them), have minimal specialized treatments of the professional kind but sound quite good, using some of the kinds of of elements mentioned above.
To be honest, this video showed up a couple times before on my feed. Never watched it, always assumed it was full of the typical condescending / opinionated / subjective nonsense so many audiophiles are known for. But these five points all make sense. For me: I know I should treat my listening room. I know this very well, yet always end up buying audio equipment instead.
I love the video. Sounds great. A friend of mind had 25 watt speakers and a 100 watt amp. Both RMS rated. He said it was OK as long as he didn't drive the speaker into speaker distortion. I love music. I play electric guitar. I love a class A tube amp with a lot of headroom but sometimes you have to push the amp so... I have different amps that I use. When I was about 50, my dad asked me, "why do you have to have so many guitars and amps"? I asked him why he had to have so many golf clubs. They all serve different purposes. Stereos are a different animal. Thank you for the video.
14:30 true as hell i have mackie HR824 love them i just added yamaha HS 8 i was sick sounded awful now 3 days later as a combo both sets are amazingly clear
Visited a neighbour's house recently, he'd just spent a small fortune to buy some locally made bookshelf speakers and ran them through his newly-refurbed '70's Sherwood receiver. Alarm bells rang when I entered the room, a long narrow well-padded room. The said speakers are there, with their dust covers on, tucked neatly away either side of a bookcase. On the floor. UP AGAINST THE WALL. So the records went on, and, predictably, they sounded TERRIBLE. Not just bad, but like the sound was coming through a wet sock. After around two hours of this I became frustrated and asked if I cld adjust a few things. The amp yes (thank God, as he was running it "flat" and everything sounded wet) but no I cldnt TOUCH the speakers. The wife would get upset. So we said our goodbyes. What a total waste of money. And this guy is a brilliant talented musician and listens under the worst possible conditions, barring a bathroom. At least the couch was comfortable
Room treatment is paramount, but an un-treated room will not make a 20k system sound like a $200 system, if you position speakers and match components properly you’ll get your money’s worth. I totally believe in budgeting for acoustics along side equipment when setting up a system, really you’ll notice way more of difference in 5k worth of treatment(done properly) than spending 5k extra on say a streamer or DAC and when you do that first you’ll actually be able to discern the differences in any change of gear.
@@joebeckham8352 I agree, you will hear a difference but the thing is how good will it sound. You are right speaker placement is key. DIY SUMIKO MASTER SPEAKER SETUP goes along way. Combine that with some very affordable acoustic panels and a 2k worth of components and decent speaker and you have a killer sound, but yes synergy is is always important. That's what's interesting in this journey, everything counts.
Great video! I have limited experience as a hobbyist but I've learned the most important foundation is to FIX YOUR ROOM FIRST! I do tinker at an advanced level though. I put in four panels of 4" Owens-Corning 703 wrapped in acoustic cloth (panels were rigid enough to cover without a frame, used spray glue at edges of cloth on back side, left back open, stuck them on little spikes screwed to the wall) at my primary and secondary reflection points. Total cost: $120 (mainly because I had to buy six panels to get the four that I needed). I have an HT/Music setup and was able to completely eliminate equalization on everything above the crossover to the sub (I still use the system delay and phase, etc). It was the single biggest change I've ever made to my listening environment.
And, BTW, this has to be the most important video that anyone getting into hifi can watch, Following Ron's advice, as he has presented it here, will do two things. 1, you will save a ton of money that you normally would have spent trying out different gear. And 2, by following Ron's advice you will enjoy music again. Far less of your precious energy will be used figuring out which gear to buy, and instead, you are going to relax and fall in love with music again.
Regarding the subwoofer I did it the other way around :) I started with SW at 11 - gotta say, it was lots of fun with some hip hop and then calibrated it down 2 steps, 1 step up, 2 steps down etc. until I got it where I like it. It fills the room nicely without overwhelming everything.
Spot in with the bass. Turning down the bass and finding where the crossover point between your speakers and sub doesn’t create a hump and just sounds like more extension was key. I used to look for power now I want accuracy, speed, and subs that disappear
The advice in this video is very spot on, Ron. Your Brain DOES condition to the Sound. I use various Bookshelf Speakers that I purchased in the past year or so for my basement "sound studio" created in COVID Hibernation last year. I find myself listening to various pairings (2 systems - A) 1 Denon DRA-800H Receiver ; B) IOTA SA3 / PA3 and a Emotiva A300 Amp). Each connected to different sides of the finished basement (Front and Rear). The first pairings will sound great , then after time, I find myself Shifting the speaker combinations (2 Pairs of Elacs [Debut and References], 1 Pair of Fluances & 1 pair of KEF Q350s) front to rear and so on... Oh yeah 1 SW (Monoprice 60 Watt ) in the rear. It is OCD behacior for sure. Watching this video does Put in your Face and serves to remind you about the Brain Conditoning. I'm a 70 YO, retirted , male , who has returned to playing Drums after a 50 Year Hiatus , in recreactional enjoyment. I play to MY Music. When I play both sytems simultaneously ... Wow sounds like a Concert Hall.
For me your comment number 3 is the best. Too many RU-vidrs only talk about how to get as much and deep as possible bass you can get out of a system. As if this is the only important content in music. But what about impulse behaviour in the low frequencies in those systems for example? Does its bass sound punchy, natural and clear? Well, mostly not.
The issues addressed in this video, although very basic, are fundamentally important: while they can make or break the listening experience, they can make an entry-level system very enjoyable from day one.
Thank you for this video. As someone with 50 years in this hobby, I would like to add two things. First, when it comes to 2 channel stereo (not home theatre), a subwoofer is unnecessary if you take the time to select a correct pair of speakers, be it floorstanding or bookshelf. I've seen systems ruined by too much bass. Take the extra money you're going to spend and invest it in your speakers instead. Second, people who are unhappy with their system tend to put too much money in the front end and not enough in the back end. A good rule of thumb is to spend 60 pct. on your speakers and 40 pct. on your amp/preamp/dac. I've yet to see a system not be improved with better speakers, however you define it. Thanks again, and Happy Listening!
#6: Forgetting that the reason you own all this audio gear is because you get a buzz out of music. I think a lot of us obsess about the qualities of our systems and stop just enjoying what's playing. I still catch myself leaning forward and back trying to find the sweet spot of the stereo image, listening for peaks in the response etc. etc. second-guessing myself constantly, before realising that the symphony or electronic album or whatever I put on is nearly over. The times I remember to sit down and shut my f***ing brain off are the golden ones. Changing from separates to a 'just add speakers' Naim streaming amp has helped a lot with removing the endless system-doubt.
With living in a studio apartment, I tried my speakers in different areas. I set them on the arms of my overstuffed loveseat, I don't have to have the volume that loud, but it sounds loud, I can hear the separation really clear. What is shocking it the Speakers are Onkyo bookshelf speakers that I got at a thrift store for $11.99 a pair that I'm using a Marantz 2220b receiver $300, Pioneer RT-701 Reel to Reel $280, Teac 3300-10 reel to reel $290, Kenwood KD-2000 turntable $120, Audio Technica AT95E Cartridge $49, and Advent 3 speakers $25 for back-up speakers. I have a large wool Flokati rug to help absorb the sound. And with being in a studio apartment, I'm sure the bed help too with the sound. Back in 1974 I had the Marantz 2275 with the Imperial 7 speakers, really loved those speakers!
#1 Placement of the listener, #2 Placement of the speakers, #3 Room Treatment, #4 Speaker/Amp synergy, #5 Good source material… Don't sweat the cables, wires, racks, etc… UNTIL you have the above 5 sorted…. bonus #6 REW and PEQ to fix remaining problems… when PEQing avoid raising anything especially the bass… only lower…
People usually overcompensate with tone controls. Usually the bass and treble are cranked up +10db or more. I like to start listening to a new system with the tone controls set to neutral and get used to the sound for a few days. If I feel a correction is needed I make a single notch correction on one control, and listen for a while. If I need more than 2 notches either way I begin to ask myself if the problem is something else. Also, having a mid frequency tone adjustment is a valuable addition. Beyond that, multi-band equalizers tend to lead to endless fiddling, and the additional circuitry can cause problems.
When balancing with movies and music. Less is more. Running a 4.1 system. I have never had a single soul missing out on that center channel. My Meadowlark fronts are not against the wall (thankfully) and what a fantastic experience. A lot of terrible systems I have come across is that overuse of subwoofers. My old Polk sub bit the bullet sometime in the last month and I really didn't notice until I kicked up The Fifth Element. At the beginning I noticed that something was a bit off. So had to replace it. Guess after 22 years it wasn't to bad!
Absolutely spot on. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen examples of this, especially #1. I’ll add “my system can hit 136db. I’ll bet that sounds great…
My sub is pretty powerful (SB16 ultra), but it's pretty cool how low you can run it and have it still produce quality bass. It can play EDM and movie explosions, but also a subtle bass fill matched to my mains.
I’m happily running 85dB 4 ohm speakers on a 300b amplifier and it sounds amazing. Of course I’m listening near field but even at 6ft it will gladly play 86dB which is plenty for this application. I’m not sure I’d call low sensitivity and single ended a bad match if your expectations WRT output are rational. Additionally, using different amplifiers for bass and mid/high frequencies is very common and can work but you have to account for differences in amplifier voltage gain. Ive done this by matching amplifiers, using amplifiers with built in volume control, use additional preamp stage on mid/high section, active crossovers and with DSP…. Point is if you know what you are doing there is nothing technically wrong with these methods but probably not good to use unless you really know what you are doing.
Dissagrement, Klipsch do use preety good parts! An no it aint worth it to modify em unless there some used quality minis from the likes of ad s or brauns .... same company ?
OMG!!!!!!!! OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I never took the time to follow one of your tips that actually made a HHHHHUUUUUUGGGEEEEE difference in my sound!!!!! Bring those speakers 2 or 3 feet out in the room! Now my Wharfedales Diamond 12.2 just gained a new life! I JUST CANT STOP LISTENING TO MUSIC!!!! THANK YOU!!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!!!!!!
1: Clean your ears, wax is a filter 2:Open your mind. Listen to everything without judgement. 3: Let go of negativity. Be positive. Have fun. 4: Relax. Take a reality altering substance. Any music will find instant benefits. 5: Be in the moment. Your listening now don’t think about tomorrow’s problems.
In my case, I have always preferred speakers with 12" woofers. Tower speakers with smaller woofers never sounded right to me, so I own a pair of classic "box-shaped" 70's design speakers, and I love the strong and smooth bass they provide. To me, having an amplifier where you can control the bass/treble levels and loudness is also a must. "Audiophiles" might not agree with me, but then, I don't agree with them.
I get a kick out of the people who put their turntables too close to where the sound is, and then they of course insist that they can hear without a doubt that vinyl is warmer than CD lol
To add a 1a: if you can't move speakers much and the problem is bass, put a rolled up sock in the port if they have one. Mine are wall-mounted as safety for toddlers. A definite loss from their out front stand position before, but the sock mod helped a lot.
My small square horrible 4x4m room is not treated at all but I got a carpet on the floor, some curtains and it is generally full of stuff (hometheater, simrig etc). Atm I am using a set of XTZ Master M2 speakers (freaking amazing!!) Combined with a XTZ 10.17 Sub, a Magnat RV3 Hybrid amplifier, a minidsp flex (dirac live) and an Eversolo A6 (non ME) and I am in Audio heaven like never before.
I was super excited to get my Paradigm 800F's and Denon PMA-800NE. Got them all hooked up and was super disappointed, they basically sounded just as bad as my current setup. Was about to call the place and send them back, but decided to do the "Burn In" suggested on a few forums. Glad I did, after 2 days and about 40 hours of loud playback, they sounded SO much better. And I just want to say that I wasn't there. we were visiting family for birthdays those 2 days so were gone all day, so I didn't get any listening beyond the first impression, which lasted about 30-40 minutes.
To have a burn-in without all the volume, just connect one speaker out of phase and have them facing each other (3-5" apart), drivers facing drivers. Turn up the music and let them do their thing. You get not so loud volume due to the driver cancellations, with max driver break-in.
Thanks Ron. Love the videos. Looking to invest in Magnepan LRS just to save my back. Moving my Klipsch out from the wall to listen to music is getting exhausting 😁 also still amazed at the difference some bass traps and treating first reflections made.
I’ve heard a lot of good things about the LRS’s. Earlier this year, I picked up a pair of MMG’s for $300 from a guy who had them in a way-too-big room. I was doubting what I’d done until I got them set up in my 11’w x 18’d x 8’h space and was amazed at how beautiful they sounded (25 yrs old, too). If anything, I’m getting too much bass and am working at how to tone it down and get it more defined. Room dynamics and speaker placement are only surpassed in significance by speaker placement and room dynamics.
Where as #2 is very important and I am really glad that an audiophile mentioned this, #1 is wrong! The best position of a speaker is free field. Ok, we dont have this. The second best position an often used in recording studios are *in* the wall. Directly in front of the wall is near to that ideal. Avoid distances from 60 cm to 1.5m from the wall! I often see 1m before the wall. This is the worst. Genelec has a good description about monitor placement. Read this! Directly on the wall you gain 6dB of bass. That is usually a good thing. But directly in de *corner* you'll get 18dB . That is too much an muddy. And I guess that the reason for this rule. 1m in front of the wall deep-mid frequencies where our hearing is very sensitiv to, because there are the fundamental notes and lower formants of human voice, will cause nasty compfiltering issus. Avoid 60 cm to 2m distances from the wall!
Great information Ron and I'm sure everyone can use this to improve their listening experience. Now I'm off to the store to pick out carpeting for my ceiling, lol.
My Magnepan 1.7i speakers lived in a room where sound waves went to die. It was full of carpeting, rugs, drapes and stuffed furniture, with a large opening at the far end. The sound was trapped in the speakers, if you know what I mean, and bringing it out by changing the acoustics of the room was not really an option for various reasons. But I ultimately found a solution that worked amazingly well. It turned out that adding some ambient sound from small speakers behind my listening position made an enormous difference. There are several ways to do this, but I used a quick and dirty method that required only an audio signal splitter, a spare amp, a couple of small speakers and a way to hook it up so that only the difference between the left and right channels of a stereo recording made it to those speakers. I put on a well-recorded LP, gradually turned up the volume on the rear channel, and before I could consciously hear distinct sound from the rear speakers there was a point at which the music left the Magneplanars and occupied the center of the room. That bit of added ambience from such small speakers should not have had such a dramatic effect. But there were goose bumps. The amazing clarity and precision of the Maggies was there in full force, but so was an incredible sense of space that the room refused to provide on its own. So if you're stuck with an uncooperative listening environment, you might want to look into the ambience recovery option.
Subs ideally should support the low end where your main speakers start to fade.maybe 25-50hz.They should also be invisible so it sounds like the main speakers are producing that rumble
My main Problem: Getting a way nicer, premium turntable and putting it on a fragile piece of furniture. It absolutely needs to have a nice and stabile place place to sit, in order to perform at its full potential. Invest in a solid hifi rack, before spending ridiculous ammounts on better turntables.
This is great, you are hitting on the big issues that hold back folks from experiencing true high fidelity performance. Re #2, I have finally built a room worthy of treatment, and have done the work of adding absorption and diffusion panels, and the room sounds amazing, but my friends admit that I would never be able to get away with the room treatments I have done if I were married, as the wife would never have tolerated all of it, even though it has been done tastefully and made to look really good as well as function very well.
I remember seeing or reading it in a magazine from Roy Clark (Hee Haw) to move your speakers from the corner of the room. Ancient PSA from the 70's or 80's.
Great video! Especially the part on speaker modifications. It’s amazing the improvements that can be made following the GR Reserch recipe. Plus it’s allot of fun doing the upgrades.
When I sold gear back in the 80's by far the biggest profit margin were speakers and phono cartridges (ex: I would sell a ton of ADC XLM Mk 2 cartridges at 100 bucks and personally made 15 bucks myself per item)
I had my Energy C9’s too close to the wall for years and always thought the speakers were good but the bass could be better. I moved them out a foot and holy crap… they are the bad ass speakers I thought I was getting when I bought them. Happy I solved the problem…sad it took so long to figure it out.
Don't listen to my high end audio system often. Limited space in living room....but always pull the towers 2 or so feet from the wall when I rock....night and day difference!
It's probably a thing of the past but speakers need to be auditioned with a recording that will expose their characteristics, good or bad. Buying speakers based on price, low or high, is a fools errand. It's best that you choose what to listen to when shopping for speakers. Speakers are a personal choice and what sounds good to your ears is all that matters. Use a trusted recording that will show strengths and weaknesses. For instance, I'm partial to old school bass reflex speakers like Altec Model 9s or JBL L100s in that particular size range. Small speakers relying on a subwoofer and a crossover to make that stretch just don't cut it for me. I prefer a warmer, more subtle sound. Don't audition speakers with a compressed audio source unless that's all you're going to listen to. Also, in that case, you don't need anything expensive to reproduce inferior audio sources. Budget stuff will do just fine.
I've heard this statement about speaker placement on and off for 4 decades, and if you've ever gone to a live concert the roadies and managers have spent a lot of time on speaker placement, so it makes a lot of sense to spend 5 to 10 minutes on yours.
Get rid of the extraneous clutter. Even a 10X12 room will open up. I moved out a huge tower computer, looooong IKea "table top" and 4 monitors, and some corner bric brac shelves, hung GIk panels and traps, and ditched the toy SVS subs and replaced with real Rythmiks. And things are tons better. Oh the node 2i was replaced with a decent Mytek. #1--declutter the room, #2 treatments, #3 upgrades.
Ron, I have a pair of KEF 104/2 Tower Speakers since 1987. They are connected to a NAD 1300 Preamp and a NAD 2600 Amp of the same Vintage. No Subs, No Equalizers. Although I may be tempted to go for a Schiit model... My question is this. Could I add an additional pair of Bookshelf Speakers (a possibilty is either Elac Reference 6.2s or KEF Q350s), that would be wired in Parallel? There is no second speaker channel on the NAD equipment. I will double check the 104s for the Ohms - which I think are niminal at 8 Ohms. The KEF Q350s are 8 Ohms Nominal, the Ellacs are 6 Ohm Nominal ? Would this fry the equipment.?
Of course I enjoy two channel, always have that as an option but surround reenergized my love of audio, not movies but DVD-Audio/SACD disks as well. Used to sell hifi during my grad school days at the U of O and Lewis and Clark College to help pay the bills.
