A fine selection of the industry's bloopers. I bought a new 1972 Triumph 500 Daytona in February of 1973 for $1,100. Yes it needed a 5th gear but unlike the Honda CB350 it replaced, it was lighter and handled much better in the twisty canyons - a GREAT dance partner
A now often forgotten classic the Daytona with a top speed of around 105mph. I read a period road road test against the XS 650 Yamaha. It was pretty well as fast but much more nimble
@@bikerdood1100In the early '70's the Yamaha RD 350 (two stroke twin) was the most nimble Japanese bike I rode. I also road a friend's Yamaha 650 latter that decade. It was oil-tight, reliable and a sweet ride. However, it isn't fair to compare a 408lb(dry) 650 with a 356lb (dry) 500. Usually, the XS 650 Yamaha was compared with the Triumph 650 Bonneville. Which period road test are you referring to?
The OIF Triumphs are just fine if well maintained. I have a 1982 T-140 Bonneville. You can now buy a decent clutch for these and the last of the motors were relatively tough and strong. But yes, definitely a design that was pushed well past its intended envelope. They still handle beautifully with decent tyres and shocks. Mine still gives much joy when I ride it but the oil leaks do tend to return after a while.
I have 73 Triumph Tiger 750V, I also have a number of 70's Japanese bikes, while I love the Tiger for nostalgic reasons, when working on that motorcycle compared to the Japanese ones you realize how truly prehistoric the design was. As an engineer I see so many problem points that could so easily have been altered to improve reliability and prevent oil leaks etc. but the senior management was all about taking the profits out of the company for shareholders in the hey days when they were selling them hand over fist in the USA with zero investment going in to improving the product, or new models.
Thats kind of it, if you can live with the leaks and vibration, parts falling off etc they are wonderful bikes. i love my 67 triumph to bits, literally sometimes, lol
I had an ‘oil-in-the-frame’ 1978 Triumph T140E Bonneville. A spectacular disaster in many areas. I could have bought the Suzuki GS1000 sat next to it in the showroom. To this day, I wonder why I didn’t.
That makes 2 of us. The GS 1000 was, arguably, the best Japanese Superbike of the 1970s. I say this having never owned a Suzuki. I had a 500 Four Honda, and several Z1s.
Had a 1975 T140V Bonnie back in the late '70's. Biggest memory of the bike is changing down coming up to a junction. The gearbox mainshaft sheared in half, locked the rear wheel & put me on my arse. Chain off & a long push home. Had some great times on the bike though.
I began riding in 1957 on a new Zundapp 200 and began visiting some of the shops in my area (Wichita, Ks). One, who had been the Indian dealer, had the remains of many Indian vertical twins strewn about the edges of the shop area. They were, to me. attractive, even dainty looking engines and wondered why so many ended up as scrap looking for a place for recycling. Your explanation made if clearest of the answers I've seen.
I worked with an Electrician in 1981 who owned a brand new Norton 750 Commando. At around 1500 miles, the crankshaft broke. Never heard of that happening on any bike, but then again, it was a Norton-John in Texas
Well it wouldn’t have been new, production ended in 77. But I’ve definitely heard of a few crank failures over the years. At a race track a few years ago a trident blew its crank and the flywheel spinning past us down the track. Made a hell of a noise
Norton stopped producing the 750cc engine in 1973 and replaced it with the 850 (828 cc) which had beefier main bearings. I wonder if your friend had a bike with the 1972 Combat engine which was a disaster.
Have raced old bikes for a long time now and have seen the odd crank flywheel blow apart, never seen a Triumph flywheel fly apart but one of my engines has a steel one. Seen Norton flywheels blow apart and been hit in the head by a large chunk of Harley flywheel, wrecked a brand new Arai helmet. Some flywheels out there don't like revs😁
An interesting history . Thank You. In 1979 I still had my first bike, a Suzuki GT 250B. I came close to buying a 750cc Triumph Tiger just like the one you discussed. It looked a work of art and I sort of regret not having bought one but feel relieved that I did not at the same time. I went on to get a used Suzuki GT500 instead. Yes, another 2 stroke. Thanks Again.
what's the difference between a T500 titan and a GT500? A few little quirks like enough oil in the gearbox so it wouldn't chew out 5th gear and stuffs... but the main difference is one had a front brake, the other did not.
Ironically. the Yamaha XS650 outlived the 750 and 500 twins, deservedly so as it was reliable, economical and great fun to ride (I had a 74 TX650). The vibration was never tiring or destructive.
I am the original owner of a 1973 Yamaha TX500. It did NOT have the same problems as the 750; the balancer shaft is mounted high and does not froth the oil the way the 750's weights did. It certainly had its own design flaws though, all of which were handled either with parts from later models or a bit of judicious fiddling. Mine has 124.000 miles on it; I rode it, solo, from DC-LA and back in 1975. Shortly after that trip, a valve adjuster screw worked loose and fell into the bottom end. I discovered that there were cracks in the head around one of the valve seats; from what I have later learned, a not uncommon occurrence. The fitment of a 1976 model head handles that, along with the oil leaking that ALL of the early models were prone to with the original two-piece, horizontally-split head (the '76 model was the first year with a one-piece head, which also has much deeper cooling fins). Fitment of a factory oil cooler kit (along with personally fabricated lines to run ALL of the oil through it) also aids cooling. Removal of the starter drive (mine has been kick-start only since 1976) removes the necessity to remove the alternator rotor in order to adjust the balancer drive chain tension (the '78 model had a different design that handled that too). For years I simply couldn't afford another bike, so I kept on fixing and fiddling and adding performance mods (reground cams; Mikuni carbs with airbox removed; Alphabet exhaust; Koni shocks; 1978 model cast wheels; factory dual-disc front brake kit with fork legs swapped to put those heavy calipers behind the legs rather than up front, using RD400 brake lines, with discs drilled; '78 seat). It's undergoing another ground-up rebuild, got the frame powder coated, and it's getting a Race-Tech suspension upgrade for the fork (which both my '97 T595 Daytona and '02 T100 Bonneville have gotten, marvelous improvement for each). My brother likes to tell me it was once called "one of the worst bikes of the 1970's" but he's never told me who said that.
As with Hondas V4s the problems were less common in the smaller models. Also Yamaha’s build quality was variable at that point and as with their triples a well put together one will last a lot better
Mine has lasted this long mostly because I put the time and energy into fixing the original flaws. When I tore it down originally I also found pitting in the first and second gear cogs, as well as one of the rod bearings, so all those were replaced too. Had I not done all the work myself there's no way I could have afforded the repairs, would have cost more than I paid for the bike!
Other than jacking the handlebars up, and slipping a new bike under them, yeah, the TX series were great. If you want to talk about great Yamaha 4 strokes, start with the XS Eleven......
I have a 1971 oil in frame. The down tube is an excellent oil cooler so perfectly adequate amount of oil in the tube. I like the 2 i have owned since 1979. Conical hub brake is great if set up properly. Nice videos. Cheers.
We had a 750, obviously either same frame. Really good frame but oil changes are not too difficult but messy and access isn’t as good as on the older bikes.I always felt that with the reduced capacity it was a good idea to change the oil that bit more often
I remember watching the Australian castrol 6 hr race for bog standard race bikes.One of my mates was a Yamaha fan and was whooping it up when one was leading,but then slowly but surely they started imploding
Racing will find faults out faster than any other method. It’s really how the original British industry refined its machines because if there’s problem racing is sure as hell gunna expose it
The OIF triumphs are a better handling frame than the prettier early single downtube frame models. I bought one new in 72, and another one last year which I have just finished renewing . Looking forward to warmer weather. Other than that, your video and bikes were very interesting. Well done.
Well the video isn’t critical of the frame, but the total mess getting it into production. Triumph / BSA missed the critical US selling season when they could I’ll afford to do so. We had an oil in frame bike and would have to agree It is a better handling bike than the earlier more expensive machines.
@@bikerdood1100 Did Triumph/BSA approach Ray Hensley at Trackmaster about building frames? I recall hearing that they lifted the design when Hensley wanted too much money. They sure look like Trackmasters.
I remember the 72 Bonnie, with a metric bearing on one end of the crankshaft and an imperial one on the other end. Supply of bearing was another problem they had in that period.
Back in the day I swapped my CX500 with a mate so I could try his XS500. All I remember was his XS was completely gutless and I couldn't wait to get back on my CX
I am really enjoying this series. Some bikes I had forgotten and a couple I have never heard of and a few that I've ridden, but I've never owned one of these 'disasters' although I'm curious if one does come up in a future episode.
@@bikerdood1100 The Kawasaki Z750 twin was pretty awful and the Yamaha GTS1000 was a bit too out there for most people. I rode a Honda 400 auto once, horrible. The last Laverda 750 twins were lovely things but the engines exploded.
There's another British motorcycle disaster you could cover. Brockhouse (owners of Indian) approached Vincent about using their engines in an Indian Chief frame. A prototype was designed, with detail engineering by Phil Irving. The installation was OK, but the chassis didn't really cope well with the power of the Vincent power unit. Obviously, selling engines to Indian would require a huge step up in production for Vincent. The Brockhouse management requested they invest in, for example, die casting of crank-cases. The money would come, yes, definitely, soon.... It kept on not coming. Eventually it became clear that Brockhouse was stringing them along, the money would not come, and it was really a plan to acquire ownership of Vincent cheaply. It did contribute to Vincent having to stop making motorcycles.
Just to put you right , indian sent over a Chief for Phil Irving to try and get more power out of the engine , he struggled to get anything but did in the end , he was so hacked off at the indian engine he decided to stick a vincent engine in ,the only way indian could of made it work having a vincent engine was for them to manufactuer it in America as the stevenage factory was never ever going to be able to up production ,if you`ve ever seen pictures of the factory you`ll understand , Vincents were out and out top engineers they just happened to build motorcycle , one would say one of the best
That’s reminded me! My girlfriend at the time had a Triumph Tiger 750 ‘oil in and all over the frame’ model. The welds where the frame rails attached to the oil in the frame tube fractured….with the resultant oil leak.
Some poorly designed bikes had no easy fix. With the TX750 however it was. Just a matter of deepening the sump and the counterbalancers stayed out of the oil. Obviously could have benefitted from an external oil tank and dry sump set up, like on the early hondas CB750's. These TX's are still around today, and with the cited isuues resolved, something BSA did not do with its oil feed woes and plain bronze timing side main end bearing on the A65 range.
Back in the mid 70's i came across an OIF BSA lightning slowly deteriorating in a chaps garden. It turned out it had been abandoned because, due to vibration from the twin carb' A65 engine, the frame had cracked and leaked oil. After an engine rebuild/frame weld and carb' balance it ran ok but still vibrated the feeling out of my fingers at high revs. Nice looking bike though but very vibratory. The front 2LS brakes can work well when set up correctly.
Yes the unit BSAs had a poor reputation for vibes particularly when compared to the old A10s. To be fair though the same is often said about unit triumphs. I’ve never ridden a pre-unit Triumph but our unit ones were nowhere near as smooth as our A10
I fitted on of those late '60s 2ls front wheels to my 1960 BSA Super Rocket. It was a surprisingly good brake - soft likeca clurch lever when stationary, but capable of giving you exactly how much tyre squeel you want. Or locking up.....
Thank You for the bike porn . I was shocked when you said they didn't put any grease in the wheel bearings. In 1999 I worked at a small independent bicycle shop and we sold Hoffman bikes at a price of $500 to $ 600 bikes with a free tune up for up to 6 months after purchasing. One came in for cable adjustments and I cleaned it and broke it down completely. Upon taking the axles out I noticed there was very little grease . It did not compute as I had no formal training. I talked to the shop owner about it and he explained that if I imagined I was manufacturing bikes and produced thousands of them wouldn't I want to cut costs to improve my profit ? Putting minimal grease would be cost effective and the product would still sell . I'm not knocking Hoffman bikes because they were high quality and after all it was only a bicycle . Yet to put out a motorcycle with no grease is evil and I don't mean evel . Thanks again for the bike porn . Fascinating content and well delivered .
The secret to solving the push rod oil leaks is to *always* fit new gaskets. OTOH, the way the rest of the bike leaked oil, those were a minor problem. OTOOH, I had a mechanic acquaintance who solved his oil leak problems by hand lapping the vertically split crankcases.
My first motorcycle was a '74 Honda CB360 that was only a few months old when I bought it. It was a candy red beauty and had a 6 speed trans. It ran really great but after some time it started having valvetrain noise. I remember adjusting the cam chain tensioner but that didn't help. I rode it for a couple years like that and sold it for $100 less than what I paid for it. About 15 yrs ago my neighbor bought a '74 CL360 which was pretty much the same bike that my CB was except for being more of a Scrambler type model. I tuned, fixed, replaced parts, and adjusted everything and put a new clutch in it. It had the exact valvetrain noise that my CB had. I adjusted the cam chain tensioner according to service manual and played with the valve lash but couldn't get rid of the noise. I think I found out later that those bikes had a recall for the cam chain tensioner. Maybe not a disaster because it didn't seem to hurt performsnce but the sound was annoying.
I'm 5 foot 7 inches and rode several oil in frame BSAs and Triumphs and never had a problem with the seat height and there was never any problems with the conical hubs on the 650s either. The triples had a bit of a problem with fading at high speeds though
I once met a man who had been a toolmaker at BSA-Triumph. Amongst other things, he made the tooling to manufacture the 1971 oif frames. Do not blame him for the high seat or small oil capacity.... He was present when workers for the company that made the tooling for the machining of the Bandit/Fury cylinder head uplifted it, took it away, and scrapped it. The story goes that there was only one company able to make this tooling. BSA/Triumph made an arrangement to rent it instead of paying for it. They didn't pay the rent, so in due course the company took it away. That was effectively the decision that ended this promising design. Somewhere around 1980, the Australian magazine 'Two Wheels' did a test of one of these machines in their classic bike series, written by Lester Morris. He was rather impressed by it. It handled and rode superbly, and he regarded it as a fast machine. From distant memory, he said it was flexible, and much faster than a Honda CB360, and compared its power to a Yamaha RD400 on expansion chamber exhausts. There were a large number of bikes sent around the world as display bikes (figures around 100 get mentioned), but they had no internals in the engind units. Running examples, like the machine tested by Lester Morris, and the machine newly created out of parts by Alex Campbell are very rare.
@@bikerdood1100 The engine fit issue was the initial 1971 oif frames for the 650 Triumph and BSA Lightning and Thunderbolt. The engine fit issue was the reason they held up production, missing the US buying season. I don't remember what they did for a fix. It was only once they started selling the oif bikes that the over-high seat and under-sized oil capacity became apparent. The new 350 bikes, the BSA Fury and Triumph Bandit had an entirely different frame. I was rather surprised when I saw a 650 Triumph engine shoehorned into a Bandit frame, for a hill-climb special. It was rather successful. Compact, light, and nimble. I vaguely remember another hillclimb special using the same frame, and a V-twin engine using two Neil Street four-valve heads made for speedway. I think it was the Gregory.
Absolutely Disastrous Management Policies adapted by the BSA / Triumph Group that Ultimately led to the end of the Industry. Yours is an interesting story. Very Sad indeed about the Bikes.
The death by management of BSA-Triumph is well documented and tragic. Think their best play would have been to continue to refine the old bikes (engine goes back to late 30's), while starting an entire new design and even name. Like Toyota and Lexus. Big if that they had any imagination pool to draw on to create new design.
In 1967 I was 15 and bought 2 1949 Indians the 440 cc both were in pieces for 20 dollars put them back together never did get them running had a good time working on them than traded them for a 1942 WLA Harley 45 and it ran good memories.
Still got my 1953 BSA 650 Golden Flash I purchased used way back in 1966. I will never part with it. I'm 74 now and no longer ride. But I still have my motorcycle, in the family room, on display!
We love ours When I’m too old and nackered, hopefully not for sometime yet than the boy will ride out. Got him practicing on it already but he will have to wait his turn
I had an OIF BSA Thunderbolt. Single carb. I extended the operating arms on the comical front hub brake and improved it a lot. A set of later forks with a disc brake sorted the stopping out properly. Welding an oil filler plug in the top tube near the steering head doubled the oil capacity and fitting an after-market oil filter sorted the engine main bearing reliability. The 9 to 1 compression was lowered with a thin plate and a head gasket either side of it. The bend swinging ability of the OIF frame was second only to the Norton Featherbed. At 6' tall and used to off-road machines the seat height never bothered me. I loved it.
I can't understand why it was so hard for BSA / Triumph/Norton to come up with a single overhead cam, wet sump twin , similar to the X'S 650. but with better situated Bob weights ! LoL They stubbornly stuck to pushrods .
Nothing particularly wrong with push rods really after all the XS didn’t rev particularly high either and OHC. Engines are taller. After all BMW & Guzzi used OHV engines for years. A better design within internal tubes and a balance shaft perhaps would have been sensible
I attended the Yamaha event in Dallas where the 1973 TX750 was introduced . Later I serviced a brand new example. It never ran very good from the beginning. Very disappointing.
My first English bike was a a 1971 5 speed Gold T120 Bonneville 650 I worked off the cost for $800 in 1979 and I fell in love. It had a personality and ALWAYS started 1st or 2nd kick even in 20 degree Conn. weather. Like any mechanical semi/alive being it would let you down at the worst times, but it was pure love at 104 mph wide freakin open with a porsche 911 2am driving like a banshee on wet mountain Ct. roads to get home before I froze to death in winter snowy plowed roads. I have had MANY Limey bikes and love the high seating or center of gravity letting me lean over far enough to wear holes in the side of my shoes, light weight, great handling and how easy to tune up. The only minus is the vibrations breaking off parts while riding, spark plug blew out of head shocking the shit out of my leg on the way to work and the plastic carb bowl caps on the amal carbs would spin off freezing one of my legs with gas. I pulled over and dug through a trash bag on garbage day and took the cap off a tube of tooth paste to get to work. It stayed there for years not leaking. Ahh memories I loved my Beezers, Nortons, Etc
The OIF bikes were great too Once they got their act together and got them into show rooms, which is what that section was about rather than the bike itself. We had an OIF bike and it was really good
That motor was used on a ton of post war commuter bikes Basically a moped by modern standards 30 odd mph but cheap n reliable Not everyone wanted or needed a Bonnie after all
Well conical hubs were very much an off road thing. The BSA versions work well if set up completely which is a pain in the ass really. The previous model brakes were better and easier to maintain. Definitely a case of style over content like getting rid of then fork gaiters
If you read factory manuals and adjust the fulcrum brake shoe adjusters like you would on car drum brakes then set the cable free play you get a excellent brake , it's a shame dum people perpetuate these myths and others read them and take it as gospel , been there seen seen it and owned one
I bought in 1977 T140V export Bonneville. It was very reliable. It handled well on the Dunlop K70 tires. The only fault was the silencers rotted through so aftermarket silencers were much cheaper than original and finally the contact breakers wore out and needed regular attention. I owned it from 1977 until it was stolen in 1980.
Electronic ignition is good but as for the exhaust, well there is probably a stainless option now. That would be expensive I suppose. Electrical systems always wear out in time though really, even on Japanese bikes, although many Japanese bike owners wouldn’t admit it. But I’ve replaced quite a few alternators and rectifiers over the years
@@bikerdood1100 Solution to the exhaust corrosion is Norton style peashooters. Gas flow is much better and they don't trap moisture as much as the original "cigar" pattern. I've been using them on my T140V for 25+ years (they sound much nicer, too).
Great video as always. I do have one question (as always). At 4:04 you say the 249 refers to cubic inches rather than cubic centimeters. I'm confused! 249 cubic inches is around 4,000 cubic centimeters and there is no way that engine is 4000 cc. What were you referring to? Thanks bud
The Moto Guzzi Lario’s valve springs were vastly over-rated for the rpm and size of the valve. Plus the valve was a friction-welded 2 part item. When it was operating at maximum temperatures, the valve-springs tended to pull the valves apart.
The two part valve design is actually quite common and is used by a number of other manufacturers . But there is no doubt it was troublesome for the lario , ditto cracking valve seats A great shame because what a bike it was
The British bike industry also used a mixture of Whitorth, SAE and Metric fasteners, as they couldn't always afford to standardize their tooling to just one size-John in Texas
Had a '63 TR6. Loved that bike and rode it a lot. Had to rebuild the engine shortly after I bought it. Previous owner had assembled the engine with all US bolts in the whitworth holes. Threads came out with the screws so I Helicoiled every hole in the bike. Super reliable bike and didn't even leak oil for a few years. I did upgrade or redesign many of the seals.
My dad was an avid Triumph fan. He had 4 of them over the years. I remember he had a '64 Trophy ( he preferred the single carb versions). He had to buy a set of Whitworth wrenches. I had never heard of them.
My riding buddy is still a Triumph fan. Has a 2001 Legend, 1977 Bonneville and a 1967 Bonneville. When the Legend hits 100,000 miles this summer (2,500 mi to go) he will buy a Tiger. I do most of the work on the bikes and ride them occasionally. I liked the old single carb version. Simple.
Years back I visited with a guy who was restoring some old British bikes , had one and cannot recall what it was , but it used " British motorcycle thread " . He was having a heck of a time cause he wanted it correct and the bolts and nuts were almost impossible to find
The video with the police officers was taken on the back road of the Metropolitan Police driving school in Hendon, north west London, (RIP) the railway line behind is the Tube line to Colindale.
,years ago my mate bought a 65o norton ss..he saved it to go to the Isle of man TT ......he ran it steady to the boat 100miles not exceeding 50 mph....... me riding with him.........at Douglas rode down the ranp off the boat.....going past bushes bar....engine went bang and the crank broke.?????
@@bikerdood1100 - the valve got stretched by the springs when at maximum operating temperature. Either the head of the valve would fall off, or the the valve would be held off the seat, and burn out. Suzuki GN250 valve springs and one-part valves were the fix
My second bike was a 650 cc Triumph Bonneville. Really liked that bike. I ran all over the eastern USA on it. Really liked the bike, but with years of hindsight, I should have put up with the additional complexity and bought a 450 cc DOHC Honda. And then, in the early '70s, when Triumph/BSA looked at the booming USA 350 cc market, they should have realized that if they were going to compete with Honda, they need to produce bikes with very few quality control problems. I discount the rest of the 350s (Yamaha, Kawaski, Suzuki, and Bridgestone), because they were oil burning two strokes.
They failure to deliver a 350 on time and on budget was a big nail in the coffin for BSA. Myself I do love a good stroker mind you. Tour is definitely more relaxed on a good sized four stroke though for sure
@@frankmarkovcijr5459 I must disagree. Like Harley in the AMF days, Harley didn't go downhill. Everything else, well, the Japanese, got better *very* quickly. Now, I have a somewhat cranky '84 GPz750 and a somewhat modern Yamaha FJR1300 (liquid cooling, shaft drive, ABS, traction control, and cruise control) in my garage. Baring bad luck, with gas, oil, tires, and routine maintenance, I can expect 200,000 miles out of it.
Well, I have a Moto Guzzi Lario in the shed it’s done 19,000 miles and only dropped one valve. You neglected to mention some of the other delightful issues such as cranks snapping second gear failure and shaft drive gears shedding teeth. Not to mention the horrendous Italian electrics the ignition system being a notable example. Thank you for reminding me why it’s in the back of the shed.
Good job on the Indian vertical machines. Many people don’t understand the history of this series of machines and usually think they are the later used (by Brockhouse) enfield verticals. Your list could have also included the 149 / Arrow. These were modular machines that shared many parts. The 149 is 220cc and the 249 was 440cc using the same pistons. The story I have heard is that someone at Indian had been to Europe and saw the lightweight machines the soldiers were riding and felt that this will be the type of machine the soldiers will want when they get back home to the US. I don’t know for sure if this is a true story but if so they were correct as the British machine did take over the market.
You have some excellent content here, albeit let down by an audio track that has be thinking that it was recorded while you were talking into a pillow.
Well I do have a better Mic now, I have to admit my original was crap. But then I’m not a journalist, I’m a motorcycle enthusiast so I make improvements when I can.
I had a Triumph TR65 Thunderbird . It was oil in frame type, which was too tall for me. It was a disaster from the point of view of the engineering involved. No proper oil filter, and a plunger type oil pump. Couple that with the lack of oil in the frame, and problems with cooling and the bike became very high maintenance. There were also endless problemss with build quality and electrics.
That plunger pump should have been pensioned off years before. The OIF bikes had a reduced oil capacity which wouldn’t have helped cooling or engine life. They needed a new engine but changed a perfectly good chassis instead. Crazy really
@@bikerdood1100 I bought her new from a dealer in 1984; it was the final gasp of the cooperative. To produce the 650 they shaved the top two fins off the block. Moreover, it was grate to look at, but living with it on a daily basis was somthing else.
Wow! look at those Indian rocker covers . Dad had an Indian 500 v twin combo in early 60s took us on holidays with it to Devon. Gave it to a school! Funny isn’t it that Yamaha built one of the best and most durable parallel twins the xs650 but struggled so much with other incarnations. The 750 as you highlighted and the xs500 which although better still had issues and poor sales
To be fair to Yamaha the Japanese were pushing the limits of technology back then. So it shouldn’t be too surprising that they came unstuck from time to time
It's such a shame that these wonderfull models which were definitely a breath of fresh air never made it. Cos if they were correctly developed would have definitely posed a serious challenge to the Japanese Supremacy. As usual another British Disaster. Edward Turner would have never been consulted in the first place for the project cos his designs and ideas were very detrimental in the collapse of the British Motorcycle Industry. Sometimes it's Pretty confusing to think how the British Industry never got things right like the Japanese did. It was always a case of miss match or after thoughts. Sad story indeed but i enjoyed your video 👍
@@alistairbernard9574 If you're interested in the full story get a copy of the book: 'The Strange Death of the British Motor Cycle Industry' by author Steve Koerner.
@@autodidact537 Hi, thanks. I've been looking at this book and Bert Hopwood's Whatever Happened To The British Motorcycle Industry. Waiting for a decent ebay deal or when someone travels to the UK to get same. BTW I have got a Pretty comprehensive collection of books. And i am a Huge British Motorcycle Fan. My collection includes a Bantam D1, B25, 5T and two Velo MACs. Cheers
That's total BS. If it wasn't for Edward Turner, the British bikes would've never made it as far as they did. Perhaps time had passed him by in 1969, but it wasn't his fault the Bandit and Fury didn't make it. The worst design on these "new" bikes was the vertical split cases, with no center main bearing. But he wasn't the "genius" that oversaw the new oil-in-frame production, nor was it his fault the engines didn't fit the frames!! Management, or lack of QUALITY management,, was the single biggest downfall of the British bike industry. Joe Lucas did nothing for the British, either.....
Hi in this video at about 3 minutes 20 seconds in your talking about the Indian but I'm very interested in the black Honda in the background I used to have one vary similar to this mine was a Honda benly 125???? I would be very interested in finding out more about these motorbikes infact anything at all like today's prices on good or bad bikes the bike I had did have the front forks very similar to the Honda 50's,70's the pressed still with the dampers all incased inside, I would appreciate any information you could give me please as I'm looking to buy another one and are these 125's learner legal as I've never past a motorbike test and I'm getting on a bit now thank you in anticipation mick.
I HAD A BONNEVILLE....IT HAD THE CONICAL HUB..BUT REMEMBER....IT WAS A DUAL LEADING SHOUE...IT STOPPED PERFECTLY....WHAT DIDNT WORK WELL.. WAS THE WOIDRUFF KEY ON THE TRANSMISSION CLUTCH HUB....MY BUDDIES GOT USED TO MY CHANGING IT OUT ON THE ROAD....OR THE TAILIGHT VIBRATEING APART....BUT...OVERALL IT WAS QUICKER. THAN MY KAWIZAKI 650 LTD....IT OUT HANDLED IT..WAS LIGHTER...BETTER LOOKING...PULLED WHEELIES. LIKE IT WAS BORN TO DO IT.....LASTED 20 TEARS BETWEEN OVERHAULS....ALWAYS FIRERED WITH ONE. OR TWO KICKS...IT WAS THE GOLD WITH BLACK ACCENTS.......I MISS IT...IF I HAD. NOT HIT A TELEPHONE POLE.....I WOULD STILL HAVE IT.. A DISSASTER.......I THINK NOT.
I guess everyone has an opinion. At the time they came out I thought the tx 750 and 500 engine was one of the ugliest engines built. Had a 1970 XS650. It was a great bike.
TX500 with its 8 valve head was a bit busy.... but I always thought the TX750 was a brilliantly clean looking engine. Shame the thing caused me such grief mechanically.
That is a good question. The first Triumph parallel twin did, the 6/1 of 1934 because it used a gear primary without a lay gear. Need to check it out now 🤔
@@bikerdood1100 I had wondered if if the engine might be conventional anticlockwise, with the gearbox reversing the sense of rotation. I note that the Rotax aero engine drives props clockwise (unlike the anticlockwise prop motion on the Lycoming) but it is geared simply (reversing direction) as it has a high design speed which needs to be reduced for normal props.
@@frogandspanner the vast majority of bikes throughout history ran forward if you will, but not all as long it’s designed to from the outset it’s fine either way. Interestingly the Hesketh ran its crank backwards but the forgot to tell the guys making the pistons, which did not turn out well
I had a guzzi V50 the two valve heads were bad too, the valve seats fell out and they would leak No matter how many times I torqued them up, the switches were dreadful and the crown wheel came loose wrecking the final drive box
Wonder what model it was , the mark 1 was problematic the two less so. Didn’t have any valve on my two to be honest. Mine had Honda switches which helped only problem was a worn seal the chucked oil on the back wheel Had it for 11 years I never tightened anything up to full torque because the castings were a bit soft
The worst bike I ever had was a brand new Yamaha XS250. It was so hard to start that I could get to work quicker on mx Honda CB100. The handling was also poor and I part exchanged for a Honda 250RS when the Yam had less than 1000 miles on the clock.
I bought a Triumph 650cc Bonnie new in 1972. I loved the bike but ... Well the brakes faded, but if you pumped them they worked. No my problem was quality control. The tank leaked, the clutch plates constantly ate the clutch basket, in teh end bearings started to fail, so I the sold it, with the oil leaking as it had from the day I got it.
@@bikerdood1100 My 1966 T100SS (bought new) had no clutch or oil leak issues. The Bonnie's leak was not from teh push rod tubes but a weep from the front of the RH crankcase.
The TX750 Yamahas were total junk. I remember though that lots of racers were putting the TX750 front ends with the disc brakes on Yamaha TT500 thumpers for road racing. It’s a direct swap as I remember. So they did work out in the end as at least good for that
The problem we Britts have always had is that we get it right or by god we get it wrong. When we get it wrong we hang on to it like glue when we get it right we flog it on and let others make millions. How clever is that ???????????? But and a big but when the chips are really really down we are at our best and I dont care what anyone says we are !!!! Concord, Radar, Harrier jet, Range Rover, Land Rover, J.C.B. Rolls,Bently,Jaguar, Spitfire,the plane not car Mini, Aston, On and On it goes but as always we would sell our grand parents Why oh why ????????? We are also slow to follow through..... At times I could cry when I see what we have and have not acheived. We seem to lead and others follow but do a much much better job of it!!!!!!!!!!!! Please can anyone tell me why ????????????????????????
Clearly as the videos have shown we are very much not alone. All too often we have engineers working on tiny budgets. Sometimes we have worked wonders despite the budget. America spent a fortune on a supersonic airliner and all they ever built was a wooden mock up. I think British failure is almost always linked to a lack of investment, with the exception of BRM in formula one, they had a massive budget
@@bikerdood1100 absolutely right not the bike but tsr2 as a kid I used stare in the window of a Vincent dealership in Mitcham Surrey now there a bike I will treat myself to if I had the odd 75k
After British built motorcycles left local dealers showrooms as far superior bikes from Japan replaced them. As did oil spots with them as well as the number of motorcycle repair shops. Other than the bike choice of motorcycle gang members, civilian riders quickly adopted Japanese bikes. Now all of these years latter, Japanese bikes are top favourites among new generations of bike owners.
Well not all. My son is 19, he does have a Japanese bike but he has to tasty Italians too. And he loves my old BSA and would love an old British bike. I think for a lot of people Japanese bikes have become a bit , well dull
Can I throw in a few non motorcycle ones for a Disasters The Piaggio Cosa/Vespa Cosa the vellocette viceroy along with the BSA Beeza ,piatti scooter ,harley topper , lol theres a long list of total disasters
Are you absolutely sure that the final Triumph Bandit design used a Tiger Cub frame- I once rebuilt a Cub and it certainly didn't have the full duplex frame in your video. I am sure Turner had his faults, but to present him as a some sort dilettante seems a little unfair- from the Square four, through the Speed Twin to the Daimler Dart, he was probably one of the most successful engineers of a generation that had few specialised paper qualifications.
No the prototype designed by Turner not the final pre- production bikes they used a completely different frame, In fact pritt-stick much everything changed between the Turner designed prototype and the final product. In that part of the video I’m speaking specifically about Turners design and not the final bike. Turner tended to design very flimsy frames look at an early 21. It actually used the fuel tank as a stressed member with predictable results. The Square four was clever but could never breath properly with the single carb. The speed twin was great but wasn’t Triumphs first twin (6/1). And even that used pistons and components from the L21 a Val Paige design 250. Turners great skill was always styling but he wasn’t an engineer as such and he worked along side the engineers to perfect his designs , Paige on the Ariel and Hele et al to get the Bonnie to handle. I do admire his work greatly but he was not without his faults, like us all I would describe Turner as a designer and not an engineer, it is not correct to assume that the engineers of the period were not qualified. The industry would fund their training. Turner did not start out as such in manufacturing but owned a dealership in London from where he built his first bike, an OHC single.
@@bikerdood1100 That makes sense. Moto Moroni (I used to ride my buddy’s 3.5, and he’d ride my Spanish Ducati single) had them as well as a few M-Gs. Not particularly powerful, but I heard they were quite fuel efficient and less expensive to produce. Thanks for your great vids! I have a good bit of motorcycling history under my belt, and I love learning and remembering these beautiful machines.
Single carbs all the way Out 1973 Tiger 750 was a great bike giving little trouble Alternator failed first ride out but that was it All smiles from then on really
I did quite a lot of work on the 1971 - 1972 line of T120 Triumphs. It seems to me, in a very unscientific study, that there was a quality issue with this range as well. It was hard to define but unrelated items used to just break. It was the only Triumph twin I ever saw, outside of a racing application that ever broke a crank. They were tall, square and uncomfortable. The colors (faded blue and flat mustard yellow) were pretty horrible. At least the T140 saved the day in the styling and the build quality department.
I think as the money ran short quality control took a back seat. Often the. Case in times of crisis. The T140 and the Cooperative for me get a lot of undeserved stick. Working with no money they did some very good work. Right at the end the short stroke Thunderbird 650 was lovely. I remember really wanting one in 1982 but then it was all gone
@@bikerdood1100 The last bikes my dealership in OKC got were a smoked red Triunph Executive, a Triumph TSS and a TSX. They were beautiful all with an electric start on the timing side. The fit and finish were excellent and it's sad because it was too late. I know that the T140s get a lot of bad press but to me they are still great bikes that can be very reliable every day riders. I am not familiar with the short stroke Thunderbird 650. Maybe a subject for another video? Keep up the great work.
What video were you wary? Didn’t say it wasn’t. Owned one loved it that video is about the problems getting it into production not the bike itself. When you watch a video Watch the video 🙄🙄
Under rated machine the T140. People rave about the T120. But the 750 makes good torque and handles nicely. The 60s Bonnies are perhaps prettier but also over priced these days
Interesting... my brother got one from new that I bought off him cheap when he went travelling. Various terminal problems with balance chain, oil on the points, and seized main bearings.... but the top end was tight. Nice to ride when newish, but obviously crap when the problems started.
@@annpeerkat2020 I always think a good guide to how well they fixed problems is how many you see on the road 10 and 20 years later You see very few VF 750s but an awful lot of VFRs still around
Several, well a few there aren’t that many after all Even had one running along side me at a Vintage Motorcycle do and had a brief talk with the owner so yes have you ? They were pre-production prototypes and not concept bikes it needs pointing out also
I think they stopped because they went bankrupt. The final ones were quite good, I own one myself, but they are very old fashioned compared to a contemporary Japanese bike.
The piece doesn’t say it was bad, the point is someone forgot to check if the engine fitted. Although of course if vibes cracked the frame it leaked. The point is it was the ancient engine that needed replacement the previous frame was good, well by Triumph standards
@@bikerdood1100 BINGO-Couldn't have said it any better myself. In the late '60s, they already had the best handling motorcycles ever built, to that time. What they needed was a modern, 4 cylinder engine. Instead, they put turn signals on them, and changed the frames. HELL-O!!!
Dood! Please add to your list any and all of the bikes now in production that feature motors over one liter. Any bike in this category is actually a car waiting for another two wheels.
I do agree I was going to feature such bikes in an up coming video I’m listening them as pointless bikes It’ll annoy the hell out of some but it’s true
Why would you want to add more oil to the OIF Triumph ? The level was at that point because that is where it held the required amount, the same amount of oil as in previous models. More oil is not better.
More isn’t always better but the volume wasn’t massive, also putting on the down tube meant that it got covered in crud. I found draining our was a messy business when compared to a traditional tank. I do like the concept though
Erm 1968 oil capacity 7.5 pints OIF. 4.8 pints Probably should have checked before you commented really, information wasn’t exactly hard to find Just saying 😂😂😂😂
@@bikerdood1100 There was a difference, but not as much as you say here. Oil tank capacity was 5 imp pints (2.84 litres), OIF 4 imp pints (2.27 litres).
To be honest it is just a passing resemblance if you look at the design of both engines in detail they are very different in fact if they had copied the CB450 things might have turned out differently but then again they could not even afford the retooling needed for the design they did have let alone copy the Honda this same issue was why a more modern BSA/Triumph 3 engine did not materialise because only so much could be spent on retooling.
The Yamaha XS 750 with its frothing oil there was a productoin motorcycle race held yearly called the Castrol 6 hour and the Yamaha SX750 competed but never finished that practily kilked of the bike in Australia they sold a few l saw one when l was a courier spoke to the owner and modern oil doesn't foam up so fixed rthe problem
@@annpeerkat2020 Well Yamah when they went into 4 stroke building except for the XS 650 but Suzuki foray into 4 stokes was much better there first was the GS750 and what a great bike they were l owned the GS850G it was a good bike the trouble was l had been spoilt by the GT750 which l owned before the GS850G a far better bike to ride than the GS850G
@@bikerdood1100 Yes. It should have been good. Pushed mine a good few miles. Got picked up by a speedway rider. Took me home, did his best to get it going. It was the ignition pickups. He sold it for me to a mate of his. Sussex rain I put it down to.
I had a T140 750 bonneville, 82 model, one of the last, vibrated like buggery, shit off a shovel till it hit eighty then the vibes set in. Frightening. 650s far better. Best bike I had was a 700 super meteor royal Enfield, ton no problem smooth as anything. That's the difference between static and dynamic balancing
I know my wife had a 73 and had no problem s at all. But you still get people telling you they are tall. Let’s face it compared to a modern adventure bike we’re they ever all that tall ?
@@bikerdood1100 hope you don't mind me asking I know you have an a10 do you ever have problems with leaks from rocker box my engine is recently rebuilt and it looks like right side front nut has loosened and the gasket has blown out hope you don't mind me asking
I heard that a couple of weeks ago. It’s purely a coincidence. The mist spelling is a tribute to 70s band Slade who often miss spelt the song names. Oddly we have just returned from touring The Netherlands, thankfully The Dutch speak wonderful English because I obviously do not speak a work of Dutch. At the end of the day what ever name we chose could mean something completely different in another language, and there’s a big old world out there
An interesting series with none of the usual classic bike owner bullshit. Only criticism was claiming there was a, "Japanese onslaught", which there was not. The Japanese simply imported bikes according to demand. There was a big demand for Japanese bikes because they were well designed, well made and reliable.
Well onslaught is one of those throw away terms often used to describe the dawning of the Japanese era, invasion is often used too. Nothing like a bit of drama, although to be fair if you worked in the What remained of 5he British industry at that point it probably did feel that way
@@bikerdood1100 Invasion and onslaught both suggest an underhand or unfair policy that 'The Japanese' as a collective implemented which was obviously nonsense. So whoever felt it was like that was simply looking for someone to blame for the decline of the British motorcycle industry except the British motorcycle industry. Nothing like that would happen now of course - oh, hang on, wasn't there a referendum a few years ago...
