Things to consider when you get that $84k quote: DNS: 2 year warranty standard. Haas 1 year with option to extend a year for the low low price of $8,000
You won't get an argument from me. Where I'm from we consider Haas throwaway machines. As in it's not something that is going to set on your floor for 20+ years because the durability isn't there.
I'm not qualified to say which machine is better because I've never ran a Doosan mill. However, I can comment on the challenges of deciding which machine manufacturer to purchase a machine from. It can make your head spin and it costs the company a lot of time, which is money, that could be used in more productive ways. When it comes to buying a machine, thank God for the creation of the internet. The internet via forums, reviews and channels, like Titans of CNC, have made the decisions much easier because of the availability of free information. I still have a huge appreciation for the sales guys that come in and make their job personable, unfortunately, I don't have time to talk.
We take pride in our approach to supporting and reaching out to customers. Our goal is to support manufacturers first and foremost, and we do that by offering more than just a machine.
Amazing standard features out of the box. We've been putting this beast in shops across the U.S. and they're loving it. Add in the support you get from Ellison Technologies and the cost of ownership and value you get out of the SVM is even better.
I saw in the brochure standard is 2MB memory and there's an option for the 15" touchscreen iHMI version of 2GB, is that a SSD-memory ?? Can you tell more about it, I use the Fanuc Memory Card Edit tool for large programs, it makes BIN-files, it's not like a Data-Server but it does the job.
@@ytfan3815 I'm not sure where you're located, but for US models, they come standard with the FANUC Oi-Plus controls with iHMi touchscreen and includes a 1 GB SSD data server. Depending on how you're using your memory and depending on the size of the programs, you would still be able to us a PCMCIA card or you could upgrade the memory should that be preferred.
@@ellisontechnologies I found it on the Dutch DNS-dealer website (the Netherlands) catalog/brochure for the SVM4100, it's the DN Solutions international brochure about this machine, btw Fanuc's "normal" max memory for the Oi-TF/MF Plus is 2MB and for the 30i-32i-series 8Mb, I don't know in the USA.. I know Fanuc has SSD technology up to 40Gb, not sure they are Data-Servers. The brochure says standard 2MB / 1000 programs and as an option 2GB Large capacity memory, should be global I think.
I have a love-hate relationship with Haas. Though their overall quality has come a long way in the past twenty years, the durability is still lacking. Their controllers, however, are second to none. So many other manufacturers are stuck in a 1980s computing mentality, and the software is needlessly cumbersome, because they think there’s no reason to improve. I’m looking at you, Mazak. Our shop has been looking at DNS to replace some of our aging Haas machines. This video will be a great way to sell it to the boss! As ever, I appreciate your uploads, and don’t be sad, Barry! 😂
@@TOXIXIFY I second this. I've been considering DN Solutions mills for our shop, but I'm unfamiliar with the control and I'd love to see some content on how it works.
I'd give the Doosan a strong look at if they had their service dept in the same state. Haas service dept is just up the road from me. fortunately my 2017 and 2018 Vf-2 SSYT has been running great and no issues worth a service trip. yet..
Haas actually wants your business. Even if you just want one in your garage, they treat you well. Other companies won’t even talk to you unless you want to fill a shop full of their machines. Even then it is still very difficult.
Personaly I dont know about that one. Talking to yamazen (brother dealer) they still seem very willing to work with me knowing I am only looking to buy a single machine, and am a small shop.
@@85CEKR I'm sorry to hear your experience hasn't been great. I'm in Idaho and our service from the HFO in Boise, ID has been awesome! Always helpful and knowledgeable the very few times we've had to call, and they were super quick the one time we had them come out to calibrate/ball-bar track a VF-2SS we purchased.
Haas doesnt stand behind their products. We purchased a 500mm horizontal from Haas, it has been a complete piece of shit, a lemon if you will. In the 17 months it has been in our shop, 5 of those months it has been down. Unable to run it. Hydraulic leaks, pallet clamping failures, H frame lift failure/leaks, tool changer arm breaking, solenoids failing, enclosure leaks. Each time it failed, it was a two to three week wait for service, then a complete week of tear down, wait on parts a week then it was back up and running for 2 days, then down again. When it ran out of warranty, same issues continued. To this day, we still have problems with it on a daily basis. Hopefully we look at another company next time.
I've been watching your videos since 2019 during my bachelor's degree. You've always impressed me a lot. You gave me the dream to become a CNC operator. Sadly, I didn't get the opportunity until now. I feel like it'll be like the good old days watching you on RU-vid. If and only if I could be over there!! Booom
Were run all Haas. They are super accurate, have very very little problems. They run.and run, and run. Accuracy is never a problem, ever. And you support the USA buy teaming with them. Wonder way you're no longer a Made In USA guy anymore? We'll stick with USA HAAS!
Я работаю на авиационном заводе на станке HAAS UMC-750. Как и у любого станка у этого есть свои достоинства и недостатки. Или в первую очередь важен патриотизм, а не качество оборудования?
That is an insane amount of speed. I feel like this machine would be perfect for doing aluminum and non ferrous materials. We have a Doosan VCF 850LSR machine that has an 18,000 RPM spindle and that thing is a monster due to the size, but also the power it can put out.
We just bought a 2022 UMC-750SS pallet pool with 15k spindle and a ton of options and the machine is unreal! Quality and rigidity is out of this world for the price, however the dns machines are intriguing for sure.
Haas: Rigid tapping and high speed machining should be active out of the box without dinging the buyer thousands of dollars. Hopefully Doosan will put a huge dent in Haas' market share, but that's not going to happen until Doosan can compete with Haas' repair network.
Haas high-speed machining is a joke. After you pay the extra money, you quickly realize that it is actually 'slightly better than very slow speed machining' I have written that check many times and was dissapointed every time. 😔
DN Solutions has and continues to make efforts to partner with distributors to support DN users. As a distributor, we have dedicated resources, knowledge, and capabilities that are also supported by DNS to better support customers. When we put a machine in a shop, we also back it up with our service team, machine training, turnkey engineering, parts department, spindle rebuild, and more.
@@Factory400 The SS upgrade is about as useless an upgrade as well. The only thing of real significant speed increase is the tool changer drum, which doesn’t matter at all since the non-SS will pre-stage tools as well.
DN solutions needs to invest in the next generation of salesman and tech workers. Currently every single one that I’ve spoken to have no clue how to run their machines and they just have this nasty old school mentality. Like that old oilfield attitude that just makes it difficult to have a conversation with. This isn’t specific to DN solutions, but this is the only department they’re lacking in compared to Haas. People buy Haas for the affordability yes, but also because their team fights for your business.
I can't speak for what region you're in or the distributors you've been speaking to, but I can say that at Ellison Technologies, we do our best to stay educated and up-to-date with machining technology knowledge so that we can support our customers the best way we can. I can assure you, our mission is to help our customers compete and win, and we certainly fight not just for the business, but for our customers as well.
Run some Mori's back down under. Love your passion for bringing young people into the trade. Our trade is disappearing here with lots of people retireing and no one coming through.
There are 3 key features I wish you would have hit on a little harder. 1) the svm has a a/o spindle vs the haas grease packed. 2) tsc as a standard feature. 3) you hit on the roller vs ball ways but a little more explanation would have been nice for the laymen. DN got after it for sure on this one.
@@DdgeluvinHic Maybe the new ones are better but I out grew Haas a long time ago. Nothing wrong with them if they are competitively priced, but that's just not the case anymore.
@@Renegade48445 The older Haas machines also had a/o spindles. I completely understand outgrowing Haas machines. They are not the everything for everybody machine. I agree there are machines out there that are a better value for the money than Haas machines and this Doosan seems to fit that bill.
Great video guys! I know one of the Haas strong suits vs doosan has always been rigid tapping speeds. Could you do a video on that with a huge amount of tapped holes? The doosan M29 spindle orient code has always added some time and delay to their tapping speeds. Also, the toolchanger speeds on a VF2SS and DM2 are way fast. Would like to see a comparison there as well
Interesting...I just bought (for Work) a new VF3SS loaded with options. It just rolled in the door on Oct 20th, It only took Haas about 5-6 weeks to deliver a highly optioned machine. Awaiting hook up and finish install. I was wishing it had roller dowels in the linear guides, but I asked myself, how many machines have I had to replace the ball contacts? Never yet. Maybe should have on a couple, but they were worn out other than the guides too, and ripe for replacement. This machine won't be used for production, but education, so it won't get many hours of use. I liked the fact it was Made In USA, and we already had some VF1's so the control will be similar for the students. Got the TRT-160 5 axis tilting rotary head.
What were the Speeds & Feeds you guys used for this cut? 700 IPM is impressive but doesn't mean as much to me if the RDOC is only 5% or so in aluminum where I like to have as big of a step over as I can when running HEM toolpaths. I love that you guys normally put that s&f information on the channel. Keep that up!
Loved the Video and demonstration of comparison between them🙏👍 DOOSAN is an incredible machine with a strong cutting and rigidity capability,,, it’s a pro✌️
Doosan, First they went after Mori, Now they are trying to race to the bottom and beat Haas? You know what they say about trying to battle on two fronts. I think they should stick with the original strategy and build a Mori grade machine most shops can afford. These Videos are Awesome.
Ive been researching the svm line and definitely would prefer it over a haas, especially the new haas machines. But Im almost certain that the machine comes with ball linear motion rail and not the roller pin type that was mentioned in the video. The ball screws and rails are similar to the vf2 is size but the overall layout and design of the machine is more robust. For a budget machine it looks like a winner, although haas’s rotary and probing options are probably better priced, also the financing is probably more accessible.
there's no substitute for mass in a machine. I started out on Haas and they're a great machine but, I never liked how the Tool sticks out further than any other CAT40 machine I've seen. Big plus spindle is a game changer
Nice looking machine. However, it looks like is lacks multiturn absolute motors? Also since it lacks those it also looks like there are maybe no home switch's? I see homing alignment arrows like the old Fadals?
I’m calling it now. This is gonna to absolutely be a VF2 killer. Under $90k for this thing and although the spindle isn’t that far off the HAAS spindle, the accuracy of the machine and the rigidity of the bed and Z head is multitudes better than the HAAS. The BVM from DN is also an incredibly well spec’d machine at a very good price and able to run the gamut of aluminum all the way to titanium and high nickel alloys A 50HP spindle with 15k rpm is incredibly impressive. The ONLY catch from DN and the dual contact spindle is that Inwas told in order to maintain the 1 yr spindle warranty you MUST use dual contact holders from Big Kaiser. That was the only catch, which really isn’t that big of a deal but something to keep in mind if you already have dual contact CAT 40’s.
Tip for you guys. If you can match or exceed the steel cutting demo of the vf2 on the haas channel. It was shaky. If the dual contact spindle bests that easily then there is no competition.
@@TITANSofCNC I know. Old timer here. (Subscriber). They recently put out a video saying debunking " Haas cannot cut steel" it was shaky as hell. If i remember correctly they even edited the live stream as some of the tools start chattering. Haas is good if you know what you're working with. But it's nice to see a step up in the game.
What I am more impressed with that the 3 flute end mill is able to cut at 11 000 RPM with no coolant. What is the depth of side engagement. I am wondering if a 5 or 6 flute endmill could not do the same think at lower RPM or perhaps at faster rpm but lesser side depth engagement. Looking at the surface finish, I would say you are on the limit of the tool ability.Pulling back on the feedrate would be best thing or increase the number of the flutes of the tool. With thin side cut like this, the evacuation of chips should not be problem. But less stress on the tool edge will increase the life time of it. The machines accell and decell is very smooth. Do you have G62-automatic corner override - engaged?
Impressive, sounds to be a great spec machine for the money. You might need a bigger swarf bin to cope with all the chips! How does it compare to the Makino PS series?
The only thing that concerns me about the SVM4100 if running a 4th axis is that the table is not supported throughout the entire range of X travel if I remember correctly. So if you have your rotary mounted on the right side of the table, then the weight of the 4th is actually hanging over the base of the machine and unsupported by the casting at the ends of the X travel. I know the SVM is marketed towards higher speed and not as heavy of a machine as their DNM, just curious of what your thoughts on that are?
The SVM is just a well built machine all the way around. Before we started rolling a single camera, me and Titan sat down and compared everything about this machine to "the competition." That said, I could respond in a variety of ways, but I think the best answer would be to look at that indicator as the machine makes chips with 90° direction changes. 1 thou motion. This machine won't even notice your rotary.
@@barrysetzer thank you a ton for the reply Barry. I agree, the lack of machine movement was extremely impressive and I'm sure you're right, a small 160mm rotary will be no big deal
A DNM would certainly be the better option for a 4th axis. But the one sided table weight issue is true with any VMC of any make or model. You’re always going to have that severely off-center weight. A typical solution is to have a heavy tailstock block on the other end of the table to even out the loads, but you do end up sacrificing table space doing that.
Why have you never done a video featuring a machine from mazak? Genuine question. Company I work for just replaced the two older toyoda 610 HMC's I work on with a pair of mazak hcn 6000's and I gotta say two months in I'm extremely happy with them.
I checked DN Solutions' spec sheet for this machine. Table: 36.2" length x 16.1" width, 1323 lbs max capacity The standard tool rack holds 30 tools The "standard spindle" has 25hp and 70.5 lb/ft torque, max speed is 12,000 rpm, uses Cat40 taper, and is direct drive Travels: X 30.3", Y 16.1", Z 20.1" And...would it be safe to assume Barry is second in command at Titans?
cool , i agree. Doosan are in all way better in our country, as we said its a lot of music for that money. and we have same Haas and Doosan , and doosan win in all ways. better controler, better rigidity. better precision , better and easier maintenmance. Its just how Korean beat the USA. Greets from Europe . Czech Republic.
This machine moves like a bee man its sound is so quiet...when i turn on my machine i feel the earthquake 😂😂 ..and now I have a reason to live i am waiting for the video of Mr. Barry wich you talked about 🤩🤩🤩.... Rise to greatness or just rise to TITANS OF CNC BOOM 💥
Yes and no. Usually we are trying to show the capability of the tools that will help our viewers make money. So, its a challenge sometimes to keep the coolant off, but if we start using endmills that are meant to run dry, they would be a little pricier
On aluminum, dlc is the only way to go without coolant or air blast. With coolant or mql works with regular i coated but can still have material sticking to it
Hass has always been in trouble. Their junk. They do have a nice controller that is very simple to use and good for rookies though. They also have a spectacular marketing department but that’s about it.
I'm disappointed in this "comparison". It's all talking points without showing anything from a VF2SS. I know Titan has changed sponsors from Haas to DN Solutions, and this just looks like a commercial for the SVM instead of a true comparison. One talking point was price but real numbers weren't talked about. Take for example on price, the VF2SS sells for $71K base while the SVM 4100's msrp is $81K. Granted the SVM may have standard features that are options on the VF2SS, but what are those features and how much would it cost to spec the VF2SS as close to the SVM4100? The Haas with those options may be over $81K, but the DN's distributors may charge over msrp too. Without a true comparison, this is no different than something like a Silverado vs. F150 commercial.
Sure! Svm out of the box is what it is. Add every option and its the exact same price, as it comes with every option. Exact same VF2SS is $101k. What do you get extra? Thru coolant, thru air, high speed machining, a casting that weighs 600 lbs more, probe ready with transmitter and spindle orientation, 2 year warranty vs 1 year, better linear bearings and guides, fanuc drives/motors/control made for a 30 year lifespan vs a Haas mix and match made to last 5-10, full parameter access with no lockouts that require service calls……shall i continue?
Ok i will! Adaptive feedrate control, thermal compensation (not even options on the Haas), a torque chart that actually tells you what the machine can do, a much better service network, and more. And ya know, for 15-20k less than the haas.
