I’m no expert, but harpsichordists are used to tuning often, as harpsichords go out of tune easily. I’ve heard that if you practice every day, you should tune every day. Luckily I’m a piano player lol
@@sambennett9769 :: Some harpsichords have more than one chorus/string pr key, two manual instruments have at least 2, but still, yes they should tune every day like violinists and other stringed-instruments do. But hey, it is not so difficult if you can. I had to learn it, because of a loose tuning-pin! And no money for a better instrument. Why can't ordinary pianist ? There's a difference between a complete tuning and some corrections. So every-dat tuning need not be so drastic.
I didn't wake up this morning wanting to listen to Bach in three different temperaments, but thanks youtube algorithm, now I have to watch every video on this guy's channel.
Thank you for providing these headings! I have finally figured out how to add chapters to my videos, and I used your headings as the basis of the chapters for this video. I will include chapters in my videos from now on!
@Stream of Consciousness The 'best' place to hear things (just based on the structure of the piece) is probably about half-way through, where some awkward intervals (and differences in temperament) are quite easily heard.
Just a quick pedagogical note, John. It would really enhance the presentation if you played the intervals as you are discussing them. I would love to hear that wolf fifth or those eight perfect thirds and see where they are placed on the keyboard. Great video!
Thank you! It's always difficult to decide what to include and what not to include in a video, but you are right about including the sound of those intervals. I have talked about meantone in more detail in previous videos, so here is one of those videos where I play some of these intervals, including the wolf fifth: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-hEEjcBdq52U.html
Expanding on your suggestion, and this would be a video of its own, I think it would be amazing to hear chromatic EVERYTHING in a given temperament. Firstly a simple chromatic scale. Then chromatic "perfect" fifths, fourths, major thirds, minor thirds, every interval including minor 2nds. Then chromatic major, minor, diminished, and augmented triads. Then onto chromatic seventh chords of each sort. Possibly chromatic "jazz chords". I know it would be a super long video, but with the use of timestamps it would be much more easily navigable and endurable for viewers!
The first time I watched this video, the Rameau temperament had me under a spell, and I could not think of anything else for some time. Now that, after some time, I watch again, I still love the Rameau temperament, but also grow fond of the beautiful colours of the Kirnberger 3. Thank you also for your detailed explanations on the structure and compromises of each of these temperaments.
this music, and the entire approach, is so beautiful, such a blessing, when u get hit by loud commercials, cellphone ringtones, over-compressed digital music, etc. pp. all day long...
When the piece leads up to that low G# at 11:39 ,13:50, and 16:00 is where the difference is very very pronounced. To me that part of the piece sounds the most "out of tune," in all three temperaments, though when listening to the surrounding material, each temperament sort of emphasizes different parts of the phrase between the rise, suspense, and release. Thank you so much for this wonderful video!
This is it ^. To me, the first one sounded like a garbled mess at that point. The second sounded reasonable there but out of tune. The third sounded pretty nice there and I could get used to that!
This was absolutely fascinating! I found the quarter comma to be very emotive, the Rameau to be flat and the Kirnberger III to be warm. I'm going to be on the lookout for music performed in quarter comma temperament. Thank you so much for this!
Absolutely. This is one of the best, if not the best, overview explanation on music temperaments that I have heard. Naturally, as John states, a thorough discussion is well beyond the scope of a short video. I certainly appreciate hearing the same piece played on the same instrument across three different temperaments. Personally, for this piece, I most enjoyed hearing it in the quarter-comma meantone temperament, particularly toward the bottom register of the harpsichord, where, to me, its sonority was more pleasing than that of the other two temperaments. Lastly, I appreciate the brief expose on the equal-tempered temperament myth. It rings a bell (although, I do not know in which temperament that bell sounds... smile...). Frankly, I am unfamiliar with the circularity of a well-tempered temperament, and it would be highly interested to delve into its historical context with respect to Bach's rationale for creating these pieces for this temperament. Well done!
To my ear, the quarter-tone common mean almost had a “honky-tonk” intentionally mistuned feel to it. The Kirnberger does sound not flat, but perhaps dull is the word. And the Rameau hits so many subtle colors and textures, the piece really comes to life. Thank you illuminating this subtle choice.
Keep in mind that we are highly influenced by the fact that we almost always listen to equal temperament, so it's highly improbable that they would have had the same feeling 300 years ago. Not to remove any value of what you said, it's just to put in contexz
Kirnberger sounded the most consistent or "in-tune" to me, maybe because I only know equal temperament, Rameau was beautiful but did raise my hackles a couple times, quarter tone was a hot mess.
I could definitely hear the differences. I think the Rameau is the sweetest and most regular. The quarter-comma had the harmonious dissonances evenly spread and had a delightful tartness to it, like a sharp lemonade. The Kirnberger was regular like the Rameau on the natural notes, but the half-tones were definitely sharp. Very instructive! Thank you.
When he is playing, the framing is perfect. During the introduction, the higher camera position and downward angle along with his relative body position and angle facing up towards the camera gives him a cartoonish overly large head. I'm not meaning it as an insult in any way, I'm just saying that's what I was thinking during the introduction 😅 But yes, the framing really is absolutely perfect.. It horizontally goes from the back of his body to the far end of the harpsichord, and vertically it goes from the top of the harpsichord to just where he's seated. Nothing extra shown nor is it overly cropped.
Thank you for this enlightening video. It makes me realize how much we're missing out on when we hear early keyboard music played in equal temperament. There's a whole world waiting to be rediscovered!
I like the sour squeezes of meantone, in moderation, with lots of pure thirds and gently chorusing detuned perfect 5ths. Great description and demonstration. You’ve convinced me to tune and try Rameau.
This adds so much color to pieces I’ve heard countless times. I was trained classic cello up to intermediate theory; needless to say I had many questions deliberating string tuning, enharmonics etc. Apparently there’s a whole new world behind that!
String players are blessed and cursed in that we can adjust the pitch of every note we play (and have heated debates in rehearsals about how high we want a third or how narrow a minor second). So much richness! It's very interesting to think about having to commit to a tuning for an entire piece. Thank you for creating and uploading.
Oh, don't get me started - I had to play with a first violinist in a string quartet who pontificated that in a minor scale "the tonic is higher and the fifth is lower". What??? If you change where the tonic is you're just retuning, not choosing a temperament; everything in the scale is in reference to the tonic.
Wind players can and do this as well. I play bassoon and my pitch is as loosey goosey as it gets. Although, that could just be a reflection on my lack of talent.
But they illustrate a question that will never be settled: how much did Bach care about the different "colors" (for lack of a better word) you can get from different keys when the instrument is tuned to different temperaments? My guess is that he considered them a distraction from the effects of counterpoint, harmony, and orchestration; there's plenty you can do with those. To a listener who's used to more equal-ish temperaments, the less equal-ish just sound out of tune, and as a church musician Bach would have had plenty of such listeners to deal with. Also as a church musician, he was probably working with a lot of musicians whose intonation was chancy for a lot of reasons, none of them having to do with temperament, and singers who needed stuff transposed without making all the intervals different. My guess is he was more of a "here's our scale, shut up and play" director.
Thank you for the suggestion. It's always difficult to know what to include and what to leave out in a demonstration, but I'll keep this in mind next time I make a similar video. At least in terms of meantone, I can offer this example of a chromatic scale -- the opening subject of the piece is fully chromatic, so I hope that helps at least a bit! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-IAhcyXzXoYk.html
@@johnmoraitis that's great! thank you! a couple other suggestions, if you're open to them - - set chapter marks for various sections of the piece, starting right on the note. I was trying to switch between the beginning of the three tunings to compare how the beginnings sound (I don't have a great ear, and my memory of pitches is even worse), but there's a long pause after the chapter mark before the sound begins, making it harder to compare directly. And even without the pause, it's difficult to compare sections in the middle of the piece without chapter markings for those. I know not everyone will benefit from those, but I also don't think I'm the only one who would appreciate that. - I'd like to hear all 24 major and minor scales, along with cadences, in each tuning, including the keys that aren't 'functional' on certain tunings. It's hard to find demonstrations of what the bad ones sound like. - I think in general, in order to keep the video pace going, it might be worthwhile to create a main video (like this one), then link to a supplement video where people interested in hearing more can see more complete comparisons. Overall though, this is amazing content, some of the best explanations and comparisons of tunings I've found, so please don't take this as a criticism - just ideas for things that I wish I had access to so I could get a better feel for all this stuff. Thank you!
Yes!, I would think he did go all out for this because he has an extreme passion for making music, learning and teaching music, and performing music for others. Quite extraordinary and beautiful.
As a piano tech., Meantone had me groping for my tuning lever! I have heard enthusiasts getting together in a room with pianos tuned to different temperaments and playing appropriate music for each. THAT would be fun. (Excellent video, sound, and discourse)
I came to look for a comment like this :) My mother was a piano tech (RPT) and I would often go with her to meetings (30 years ago!). This video brought me back to one of them where a set of pianos were lined up and tuned to different temperaments while a couple of guests came and gave a talk and demonstration of various pieces from different time periods and how the colors of the pieces changed from instrument to instrument. It was an enlightening evening. I enjoyed reliving it with this video.
This is all new to me; I don't understand what you are saying but it's interesting. I will replay your video and look up what the different temperaments are......I am novice. Thank you for your post. 🙏
Hearing the three temperaments next to each other really lets me notice the differences. In the quarter comma meantone there are clearly some dissonances which I noticed right away. Distinguishing Rameau and Kirnberger III when heard some time apart would be more difficult, as intervals sound good for me in both occasions. But Rameau surely had more depth or richness in it, Kirnberger III sounded a bit flat. Excellent demonstration and thanks for the effort of retuning 3 times for the video.
Thank you. I must say that this was an amazing demonstration, with a very clear and balanced introduction. Usually I am not able to hear much difference between temperaments, but in this case, when you started to play the Rameau temperament I immediately found it to be very beautiful, more "calm" intervals than the other two, if one can express it that way.
Hello and thank you for this wonderful video. To be honest, I have never really cared for the sound of the harpsichord, but I clicked on the video because the subject interested me. Imagine my surprise to discover these unequal temperaments really bring out an expressive aspect of the instrument I had never heard before! The Rameau particularly has a wonderful breadth between the shimmering light of the beginning and the murkier darkness of the later passages. Thank you for opening my ears!
@@johnmoraitis That was the best one! The third version was also good, the first one awful. Thanks for your diligent effort in teaching us these extreme subtleties.
I much prefer the quarter comma for this piece. The other two honestly sound too bright to my ears.Thank you for making this video! I learned a great deal!
This is a thorough elucidation of the science of temperament as well as an informing historical account of the subject. I very much appreciate your insights and diligent work!
I definitely learnt something today as a returning guitarist. In the third rendition ,Kirnberger this piece of music sounded wider tonally I definitely noticed something comparatively in the higher registers. Until today I had no idea what tempering was. Now I have a faint grasp. The journey continues. Thanks for your dedicated offering.
Oh wow is this interesting: where have you been all my life? I have been SO distressed by all of this and I had absolutely no idea anyone thought about it, these inconsistencies and tonal differences. I thought I was just crazy. There's so much more than the interval consonances, there's also the way the sounds blend and interact. The third one - forget its name - that tuning has always put me to sleep; the notes just don't stand apart. That's what I think that Rameau does is keep everything more separate and crystalline. Which is really important to appreciating the music overall. =0.02 of course. But I think that sort of _mixture_ of sound, the "digestion", if you will, is very important too. Thank you for your scholarship so much!!
I hope you don’t mind me saying, but It’s interesting that you say you’ve been distressed by these matters. Maybe the intonation in my guitar needs looking at - but I’ve been really struggling with the sound and tuning lately, especially where thirds are concerned. I’m constantly feeling the tuning is off - the more I’ve played the more sensitive and discerning my ears are to minuscule variations in pitch. I think (and most people say) I have a very highly developed natural ear, but it’s been upsetting me and I’m not sure what’s down to fatigue, actual instrument problems, or just these imperfections in 12TET that I perhaps didn’t appreciate fully before. Come to think of it though, so many guitarists will say the G and B are a nightmare to tune, and in the context of tuning- these are often minor or major thirds.
I didn't even know that temperaments existed, and discovered only yesterday that A had changed pitch over the centuries. As a complete ignoramus, I didn't understand all the technicalities, but I do hear some difference, and am eager to learn more. Thank you for an interesting lesson (and the work of tuning the harpsichord three times!)
I'm happy you liked the video! And, as a former pianist, I also was unaware of temperaments. It has been wonderful to discover these new possibilities, which is why I'm sharing them in my videos!
@@johnmoraitis and at forty years of age, I'm a beginner pianist of only ten months! But I've already had the pleasure to try a couple of menuets from Anna Magdalena's büchlein, and I'm looking forward to more complicated material in the future. For now, everything in music theory is still new for me, and these temperaments are really exciting (I'm an engineer by training, lol).
I understand why you might use the Rameau more often- it fits the piece very well. However, there is something I really enjoy about the quarter-comma meantone. There are some crazy bitter intervals there that don't exist in Rameau, but they arrive in a fun and interesting way. Great presentation
Excellent tutorial - thank you so much. As a string player, too much dissonance still sets my teeth on edge! Now, to persuade Angela Hewitt to tune her Fazioli piano to Kirnberger III and then step back once more into the recording studio...
That was really interesting. I've been semi-casually playing piano for nearly 20 years, only recently hearing that there's no single "correct" tuning haha, and you explain and demonstrate that in a really helpful and satisfying manner. Thank you, I really enjoyed this video.
Love the physics of Music, how we perceive different Sound Worlds….love the wide range of sound worlds of different Composers and thankful for the wide range of Master Artists who share their versions…..endless hours of Joy. Plus my amateur attempts with hands of a chimp, just to try to produce a few measures of a composition as written in 2 dimensions of lines and dots…..(love Scriabin, & Rachmaninov, & a bit of many others). This is a very good vid. Genius of Bach!!!!
All of these brilliant people with their trained ears and perfect pitch.... I can’t tell the difference between the tunings lol. Oh well. Splendid demonstration regardless
I found didactic your presentation in this video: the ¼-comma meantone is clearly perceptible, the other two temperaments are more subtle. Anyway I enjoyed at all Greetings from Brazil.
Thanks for this excellent demonstration with explanations. Great video. And then comes me who must admit I hear "no difference". I have zero music education but I have been listening to a wide range of classic music for 40 years. Still, there are many nuances that others often say they notice, for which I seem to be deaf. OK, this was another proof for me. This is no blame on You or anyone, just a statement. I am thankful that this video enabled me to test myself.
Thank you! Since I originally trained as a pianist, I could also hear no difference at first, and I also had to "train" my ear to hear the differences. Perhaps in a later video I can play chords in different temperaments side by side, and that should help with hearing the differences. I'll see what I can do!
After watching this, I tried the same exercise myself using the Pianoteq demo. I found it a little easier to hear the differences when I could play them myself (although it's still very subtle).
…and it seems to be something within these old tunings/temperaments (especially Rameau and Kirnberger) that touches me even more and deeper than our “regular” equal temperament (Werckmeister III as well, but again in a different way)… Maybe they’re kinda more “human” in a certain way? I think we human beings are anything else but equal temperamented, so to say. And maybe these tunings mirror our nature…
This was a surprise encounter. I don’t understand about the technicalities but this is a beutifully played piece that my mother used to play a lot until she sunk into dementia.
Thank you for the explanation and demonstration. Fascinating topic. To my ear the Rameau 12:50 sounded "purer" than the others with this particular piece. Almost seems like the difference between sugar and honey...😊
I'm happy you liked it! I think the Rameau sounds purer because, while it may not have as many pure thirds, it also doesn't have any "questionable" thirds like meantone, so that the overall effect is indeed sweeter.
Excellent video! Might I also interest the audience here in my "Yarman-36 subset" (cf. jaem.isikun.edu.tr/web/index.php/component/content/article/88-vol4no2/180-yarman-36-makam-tone-system-for-turkish-art-music), which is a 12-tone modified meantone temperament in the style of Rameau? You can watch my performance here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-pN-A0fZ-onE.html
Great to hear it John! I enjoy your Early Music performances very much. In my attempts to systematize Maqam music pitch intonation and inflexions, I long ago realized the importance of irregular temperaments, which also provide delicious tone colors in the common-practice sense.
I found myself a fan of the Rameau, too. All of them were very interesting and beautiful in their own ways, but something about that Rameau had something very special about it.
The first performance sounded the most pure to me and I felt myself close my eyes and let the music take over my mind. The second performance started off ok for a few seconds then I began to feel uncomfortable as I felt the notes crash into each other with beat tones and dissonance and it made me sit upright in my chair. I skipped to the third performance early because I did not care for the ‘grunge’ sound of the second. The third felt a little less aggressive, but still lacked the pure feel of the first. I went back to the first and nearly fell asleep so I know it’s the preferred temperament for me. I’m a former brass band tuba player and a post production sound engineer for the past 19 years.
I didn't get all of the video to be honest, but to me the third one was the best. Felt the warmest to me but I'm hearing it on a phone. Great video and thanks.
A most instructive demonstration! I rather liked that one nice dissonance in the meantone version--perhaps it was meant to get the audience to wake up! Of course, you cannot play most of Bach in meantone, although some have tried. I have a question about meantone that I will communicate to you privately. In the MEANtime, please continue with your wonderful videos.
Extremely interresting: it aims to let you hear, feel and understand the different temperaments - tuning modes - which were in existence before the XVIII Century...although the piece itself is not that difficult to play....even I did succeed in doing so! It is so interresting to hear you explain all the subtilities of your playing in three different temperaments - modes.
The consonances in the Rameau are quite something, and then contrasted with the tension in the dominant chords; very nice. I'd almost say the idea of harmonic movement is a little watered down with equal temperament
It is definitely watered down, because all tonalities sound the same. When you use unequal temperaments, modulating to a different key is audible, and, depending on where you modulate, it can be a very dramatic event. Some of Schubert's modulations, for instance, can have startling effects in an unequal temperament. This is indeed what we have lost in the 20th century: key color, and the use of temperament as a means of expression.
i kind of loved the quarter-comma meantone version for the very lowest sections. it's definitely weird and slightly "off," but within that it had a depth and complexity that i really enjoyed
The Kirnberger tuning sounds fantastic to me, the others had a nagging sense of being "out of tune". I suppose it's all down to the key it's in and the intervals involved. Great video.
I was about to comment the same thing! I think we prefer the Kirnberger III because in a way it’s the closest of the three to equal-temperament which is how we’re most used to listening to this piece in, I think.. but Rameau does have a special spicy feeling which is really nice in my opinion and I think I can appreciate it if I get used to it
Yeah, the objectionable parts of the other tunings really grate on my ears. There's no question that I'm so used to equal temperament that its shortcomings don't bother me, but I find that while people often comment on the "blandness" of its colors ("color", really since every key has exactly the same qualities) I find the pure thirds and fifths of other temperaments bland; I'm just used to a little crunch with my triads.
To my ear the Kirnberger sounded the closest to "neutral", I heard one interval that sounded noticeably out, but it felt a bit more resonant than the meantone. The meantone sounded, duller, like there was just less sympathetic resonance, and had a few ugly patches that stick out as glaringly ugly. The Rameau had a similar if not stronger feeling of resonance to it than the Kirnberger, and some really beautiful moments, and a few almost comically misplaced notes sprinkled here and there. But I can't play anything, I just listen deeply.
"it's all down to the key it's in and the intervals involved" -- you said it correctly, I think! Hear different music and you'll be left with a different impression.
Thank you. I've often wished I could show someone a video or recording of the same piece in different temperaments when I tell them about historical temperaments, to show that this absolutely matters.
Wow the richness of the harmonics in the harpsichord I had never heard them before this performances! It is more evolving compared to the brightness and punctuated sound when the harpsichord is in equal temperament.
Yes, the type of temperament you use definitely affects the resonance of the harpsichord. And since in equal temperament no intervals are pure, the instrument will not resonate as much. Personally, I don't use equal temperament anymore -- I see no reason for it :-)
@@petebard It's my dad's :-) But yes, it also shows how modern instruments can be very standardized and inflexible. Back in the 17th century, instruments were built with movable frets.
John Moraitis agreed! The tied frets on the viol are often slanted here and there in an attempt to temper the tuning. Tuning a guitar by using harmonics will show the absolute need for tempering. As a fiddler I have the luxury of blending with whatever I am able to, or, blending with my open strings which resonate on their own. We often think we have superior ears but all we’re really doing is blending with what we hear.
Music theory neophyte here. Eventually, the light does switch on. The chosen key establishes where the "off-color" tunings fall. Did composers chose the key with this in mind? I would think so. With equally-tempered tuning, there should be no real difference between the keys. There was method to their madness, but I never knew it. No one ever told me. I've always assumed equally-tempered. For example, in a computer science project, interfacing an oscillator to a computer, I set set up the tuning based on 12th root of 2 spacing. I never even thought of any other way. (Music was the most interesting way to demonstrate the project.) I've heard of Pythagoras, but I assumed that by the baroque era, they'd made the transition, but I guess not. They still had the "devilish" wolf fifth problem. I had heard of "forbidden" intervals\chords, but no one explained why. I thought the church was just being arbitrary. As my kids would say, "that's so random." As I grow up, I'm figuring out that nothing is "random."
Yes, that's one of the most important aspects I also discovered (because, like you, at first I only knew of equal temperament): composers indeed wrote in particular keys for expressive purposes, because each key had a different "color." I've made other videos in the past where I explore precisely that topic. Here is one that related to meantone: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-5Rglt26-aVI.html
Bear in mind that almost all the scholarship on the history of temperament is outdated, as well as the conception of the relationship of music to temperament. So much of the scholarship is incorrect. I suppose that's because for musicians and musicologists, temperament is difficult to fully grasp. It is compounded by people's basic tendency to not distinguish written theory from practice, a problem which exists in many fields of science. Historical temperaments, especially quarter-comma temperament, were revived in the 1960s on harpsichords by the early music movement, and then around 1980 on some organs in the US and Europe. Quarter-comma temperament (i.e. "meantone"), of which we're still not sure how common it was, doesn't have key flavor - either the intervals are usable, or they aren't. Circulating temperaments such as "Rameau" and "Kirnberger III" do have key flavor. "Rameau" is probably close enough to what keyboard players like JS Bach used when they wanted to play around the whole circle of fifths. By the way, "forbidden intervals" (e.g. the tritone) and the church have nothing to do with temperament. There was nothing forbidden about the "wolf". Simply, for most musical purposes, most musical establishments wanted either a G-flat or an A-flat (which defined where the "wolf" went) and not a compromised note, to serve their needs (e.g. playing G-Dorian chants transposed down one note into F-minor, to suit vocal range, depending on the pitch of the organ, versus other rationales). Though there was a shifting trend over time, favoring one note over the other, and then eventually a compromise, and the finally even more of a compromise, we're more sure today about their rationale in the 18th century than we are about their rationale in the 13th through 16th centuries. It was rare, only among the avant-garde, for the rationale for temperament to be able to play around the whole circle of fifths.
Thank you. I was trying to explain tempering recently and made a mess of it. This video is a fantastic explanation, especially in the difference between equal and circulating. Very grateful👍
Love how the keys colors are reversed. To my ears there was a purity and clarity of tone in the Kimberger III that I preferred over the others. This is also my favorite Bach prelude and the one that I tried to learn on my own using my own techniques. Thank you.
I have an almost identical spinet (a Japanese Kawai version); I've tried various temperaments and have found that I like Young's temperament the best. I sometimes wonder if later composers, in spite of the victory of equal temperament, still had the flavors of certain keys in mind when composing. I had our piano tuned in Young's as an experiment and the results were very interesting. For example, the Moonlight Sonata sounded very 'right' - somehow hazy or foggy - when played in its authentic C sharp minor. No post-baroque piece sounded odd or wrong.
I am still exploring this issue, but equal temperament did not really become the standard before the 20th century, and therefore even 19th-century composers still thought in terms of key color. I know that there have been studies regarding the music of Schubert (who was influenced by Christian Schubart's description of key characteristics) and Chopin. And as the topic of temperaments is becoming more and more important, there are contemporary composers who are also writing pieces for specific temperaments: for instance, György Ligeti's Passacaglia ungherese and Brice Pauset's Preludes reuire the harpsichord to be tuned to quarter-comma meantone.
@@johnmoraitis Lou Harrison's Piano Concerto requires the piano to be tuned in Kirnberger II. Before the final rehearsals and a performance of Beethoven's Piano Concerto no.3 by our local orchestra, I tried to bribe the piano tuner to secretly put the piano in Young's, as the major thirds in particular in the solo part sound so jangly and out of tune; but unfortunately he refused.
I liked the last one best, Kirnberger iii. It seemed brighter and more resonant in all the right places. Very interesting. Thanks for such a deep explanation.
Just want to say, how thorough you are with this topic is so refreshing and I'm surprised you don't have more exposure than you do. Well done. And thank you.
To me it felt kind of like the second was feeling happy about something that happened a long time ago, like slightly wistful and the third happy about something happening now but idk.
Thank you for taking the time to do all this, particularly with the educational material. I like that it was as analytical as it was perceptive. The performance piece choice was perfect for multiple reasons. One set of questions, as much as for everyone's benefit as for me being lazy: 1. When were each of the named temperaments invented? 2. When was equal temperament invented? 3. When did equal temperament come to dominate? Cheers!
I'm happy you liked the video! Onto the questions: 1. Meantone during the 16th century; Kirnberger III in 1779; Werckmeister III in 1691. 2. Equal temperament existed throughout the previous centuries, but very few musicians and composers seemed to be interested in it, so it was rarely used. 3. I'd say probably around the turn of the 20th century. Some researchers would probably advocate an earlier date, perhaps going back as early as the 1870s. Ross Duffin, in his book "Why Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony" explains why it is hard to really know; however, his assertion that it was in 1917 is slightly problematic. Otherwise, definitely a book I'd recommend when it comes to understanding how temperament developed.
Correction: Sorry for giving the date for Werckmeister III and leaving out the Rameau -- I got confused with another response :-) The Rameau dates from 1726.
1: creates more dissonances, always present in human being 2: more heavenly 3: more similar to what my ear would expect. Three different methods to seek for Truth, three different ways to reach the One.
very interesting. I enjoyed the demonstration and often change the temperament (and base tuning) of my own instrument/s to suit what I'm playing and the key it's in. I generally like the Rameau for most baroque music but I surprise myself to admit I definitely preferred the Kirnberger III for this piece. I loved the subtle sharp dissonances which I imagine Bach had intended to stand out in the concluding section. This sort of stuff is fun! Thanks for taking the time to record this demonstration :)
Quarter-comma meantone: Crunchy, cringey and drunk Rameau: Weird, but like the hot goth chick rather than the schizophrenic guy who hangs out at the bench in the park Kirnberger: Background music for massages and weddings
To my unprofessional musician's ear the quarter temperament sounds "wet" and "wobbly" like played on the cimbalom. The third temperament sounds the most modern and somehow soullessly. Fantastic presentation
He kinda danced around the most important point: composers wrote their music to fit the temperament that they had. So if you play music (Chopin or Frescobaldi) on an instrument that uses the correct temperament, it sounds completely different (than say the temperament of 1918 which is what is most used today). Bach is a poor choice to demonstrate this because we don't know what temperament he used and because he was driving toward equal temperament. So if John had chosen a different composer who wrote specifically in a particular temperament and played it in that temperament, then when you shift to a different one, you can clearly hear the bad intonation. The differences are much subtler here.
@@ibikwitty8770 Would you prefer a "champion"? Perhaps an advocate? A sychophant? Equal temperament was his god, and he revelled in it. Perhaps you could describe his slavishness more adroitley? Give it a go...
Your assertion is a complete myth Aindrias (as mentioned in this video if you were paying attention). The 48 preludes and fugues were composed to demonstrate "well temperament", not equal temperament.
@@cottoncandyheart7305 nobody can be sure, but we can get some conclusion from Bach's works: he liked having the possibility to play in every possible totality on the same keyboard. So he probably thought to some "good temperaments" with which it might be possible. Ok, it's an assumption, but it's not so absurd. Given this, it's probably true also that Bach didn't want to use one single temperament, especially because he loved to write also for choir and wind instruments, and I think you know what, for example, a trumpet player, could reply you if you ask him to play, for example, in Kirnberger III and not in ¼-comma meantone. Probably Bach thought that a certain number of temperaments, using common tonalities (for example those of Brandenburg concertos) would sound exactly the same to a not-trained ear, and so different instruments could play acceptably in tune with the harpsichord continuo.
I play the only instrument that was designed for Quarter Comma Mean Tone the Wheatstone Concertina. It has separate D# and Eb, G# and Ab. The instrument I normally play has modern tuning but I have one from 1850 with 3 sets of reeds. I must dig them out and see if any are mean tone. Might have gone out of tune in 170 years though. Not quite as easy to tune as a harpsichord since you need to file the metal reeds and their pitch changes when you take them out of the instrument. Each has its own little resonant chamber.