A Civil Dialogue about Autogynephilia, with Phil Illy & Shannon Thrace 

_Who_ benefits from someone being able to "pass"? The idea that anyone has a deep psychological need to "pass" as the sex they are not is a contagious, pathological thought disorder.

Am I the only one who thinks anything based on a focus on the self, sexual orientation included, is basically another word for narcissism? Not trying to judge or name call, just seems the two are related.

Well, this wasn't very radical or very centered at all. Could your guest's agenda here be more transparent? If AGP is such an "inwardly focused orientation" THEN WHY ISN'T PRACTICED AT HOME IN PRIVATE? Why does it always REQUIRE the reaction of shock and disgust in female targets in order for the AGP to get his "satisfaction." Why does the AGP always claim that the public NOT PARTICIPATING in his "inwardly focused orientation" causes him "distress"? Your guests were totally incoherent and profoundly dishonest. The best therapy starts with radical honesty. What about all the research on how EXHIBITIONISM is an important component in this EXTREMELY PUBLIC paraphilia?

You say its a "stupid argument" but it really isn't. Its not about individual behaviour. News flash. there are predatory males out there and individuals who fit that description will exploit the removal of bounderies between them and the vulnerable people they seek to harm. This is what women are saying and what you are ignoring. We should not be legislating and villifying dissent to accomodate the desires of fetishists no matter how 'psychologically complex' their proclivities are.

Thanks for featuring a trans widow. We exist.

i think also the dislike of describing AGP as an orientation is that paedophiles want their paraphilia described as an orientation, which leads to the criticism that they're attempting to normalise it

39:35 this whole segment is INSANE. calling transvestic fetishism rigid and saying that these boys should be medicalised and that the way agps are pushing this is a good indicator for the validity of this claim is simply bizarre. This man has 0 awareness and simply him admitting he has this sexually narcissistic obsession doesnt make him any less harmful than any other man who doesnt openly admit it.

If it’s not attraction directed externally to another person then it’s not an orientation it’s a fetish! ie it’s all in the imagination about the self, a fantasy rather than a real life basis for a relationship

2:31 Twitter doesn't allow "everyone to talk to everyone" - writing text is not talking, reading text is not listening. You can't hear tone of voice or read facial cues when you read a tweet.

For a society to function there must be conventions that enable people to understand each other. Queer Theory's stated aim is ro remove demarcations between fundamental societal functions. This is a moral issue.

This cannot be a man's attraction to the self as a woman since no man can know what it is like to be a woman, it can only be an attraction to the self in relation to the paraphernalia of being a woman, hence the interest is women's clothing and mannerisms. These things relate to gender rather then sex. Since gender is a hierachy which places women in an inferior position, I wonder if it is the self as a degraded person that is the attraction for these men. An actual woman is independent of this paraphernalia yet autogynephiles are inordinately interested in them. It is a way of imagining that one is having a relationship with a woman without having anything to do with any actual women.

It’s not interesting to notice the hypocrisy. It’s just hypocrisy 🙄🙄🙄

I was diagnosed with autism a few years ago in my early 40s, and for the life of me I do not understand non binary gender or anything other than strict binary transgenderism. It does not compute with my black or white thinking. So I don't relate to how being autistic is supposed to make gender this whole other thing.

Letting a paraphilic man (ie sexually obsessive self hatred and self humiliation through clothes that create a certain feeling in said man) with the emotional capacity of a brick argue that transvestic fetishism is a sexual orientation is just ridiculous and to see women agree based upon his manipulative agreeableness ... insane.

Re. Clothing, we should at least expect people attending a professional conference to not wear revealing nightclub gear! Some women find men’s bare shoulders and chests a bit gross except on the beach! It’s about flesh on snow!

A lot of mental gymnastics. Being deceiptful took about three paragraphs to describe.

Well not surprised to see Lesile platforming this guy. Her husband is on the "Think Tank" board of Genspect. You should state your connection. Also, She has NO background in training in these pathologies-which are scary as f*ck. . Nothing he does is benign. Horrifying.

How do you address what I see as a third form of gender dysphoria in females that comes about from sexual abuse, social contagion and a desire to be male to transgress victimhood?

"It's like females like fighting for like you know THEIR own sex." HE like REALLY SAID IT! (7:11)

haven't listened yet, but I just love how open this channel is, bc many woke critical people end up knee-jerk taking one side on issues. I'm way more interested in weighing many sides, not taking one and being dogmatic either way.

I was at the conference. As a woman, I was not at all threatened by Phil. I want our society to be enlightened enough for people to wear whatever they want. It didn’t feel like he was wearing his fetish garb in front of us, and I really do believe him when he says that, even though dressing like a woman is part of his sexual orientation, he is not constantly aroused when he does. He did not force himself into women’s spaces. He does not claim to be a woman. However, as an ROGD parent, I did find part of his appearance there upsetting. My child is female to male, so I can only imagine that the parents of male to female children who have medically transitioned and who are estranged would have been even more upset by his presence and presentation. Here’s the thing, though. If he were saying that the condition of AGP should never lead to medicalization, then I think he would be a huge advocate and actually be reassuring for parents. But he says that if he could pass as female, he would medically transition, thus indirectly, or even directly, advocating for childhood medical transition and treatment with puberty blockers. He does acknowledge that it might be difficult to discern what child is AGP and what child is gay at a young age, but he does seem to suggest that there is a possibility of this distinction, and therefore a valid greenlight to childhood medicalization. That is the main issue for me. Just like I wouldn’t have an issue and didn’t have an issue with female to male transitioners there who are saying that medicalization probably isn’t right for the vast majority of, if any, childhood or ROGD onset of gender dysphoria, I would find it hopeful to have self proclaimed AGP individuals as part of the dialogue and mission to stop harmful medicalization of anybody’s inner sense of themselves. It should be society that changes in terms of regressive stereotypes, misogyny and misandry, harmful porn, impossible standards of beauty, etc. etc. etc. rather than people needing to dangerously change their bodies in response to society

To be honest and regardless of my personal feelings about this conversation, this dialogue was hard to follow and intellectually boring. Love you Leslie but this one falls flat for me. I couldn’t get through the entire episode when he was on Ben’s channel either.

Can we stick to facts: it's not an "Orientation" Phil, it's a paraphilia.

I do like the platform of "radical center" and being able to just listen to 2 stories that shed light on interesting perspectives without having a particular end goal. We now understand some of the inner workings of autogynephilia. However Phil wishes to explain himself "not being rock hard 24/7" - it seems like there is this HUGE elephant in the room...but I am not quite sure what it is...

If this is a sexual orientation and they get aroused by themselves, why do they need a real woman in order to satisfy their lust? He said that wearing female clothes is just a matter of every day life without getting hard but he never explained what actually makes him hard . Also, does he see himself as a real female? Does he use female spaces and if so, does he get aroused by that? Even if he explains his own "innocuous" dress wearing does he think other AGPs have the same motivations? Women wearing masculine clothes generally don't do it because of their sexual "orientation" but as a fashion or comfort item. If a woman wears trousers it's not because she feels like a man. The same can't be said about a man wearing a dress. Also, a woman in men's clothes going in male spaces is no physical threat to men.

I cant trust someone who chooses not to disclose her clear conflict of interest by platforming the same AGP her husband did, at a group on which her husbabd sits on the board. Your bias is quite evident and almost as dissapointing as it is predictable.

I am a 62 year old heterosexual female. I never dress in skirts or dresses. I was pleased that this discussion has taken place. In the UK, men in dresses have been a source of comedy - pantomime dames, comic sketch shows (Les Dawson/ Danny LeRou) and Eddie Izzard. This image has changed over the last few years due to trans identified men in women’s spaces clearly aroused or aggressive when challenged. I was initially disturbed to see Phil’s photo on X and wondered why he was allowed to do that and be there- then I remembered what Genspect was about. I also started looking into AGP and although I still have a long way to go to be convinced that men in evening dresses would not make me feel uneasy - Phil’s personality and message needs to keep getting through. Honesty is the best policy BUT if these males do not have knowledge of AGP how can they be honest with prospective partners. Thank you all. 🇬🇧

It’s not true that there is no link between autogynephilia and sexually predatory behavior. While autogynephilia alone does not make someone a predator, there is significant overlap with other paraphilias, including autopedophilia, exhibitionism, and even voyeurism, paraphilic rape, and pedophilia. This is especially true when a component of the patient’s autogynephilia is being in female private spaces or being perceived as a woman by others. This is important because it is reflected in the data on trans prisoners in Canada. Nearly half of MTF prisoners have a record of sexual offenses and the majority of their victims were female, suggesting a greater risk of sex offenses from autogynephilic vs homosexual transsexuals. Furthermore, imprisoned sex offenders with subclinical autogynephilia may be incentivized to pursue transition if prison policies offer them access to female units. They may also pose a risk to homosexual transsexuals as autogynephilia has significant overlap with gynandromorphophilia (“chasers”).

I give Phil credit for researching AGP for the past 100 years, and, as an AGP, trying to figure out what it all means to help others like himself have a better chance of figuring themselves out. Anybody could have done this at any time, as the scholarship was there, but Phil was the one who was motivated to try to put all the pieces together. I call that brilliant, and I think it will have an impact on the discussion at hand.

Ok the autism part was interesting. I know someone who is autistic and they seem to be obsessed with transgenderism! He kind of singled me out and told me that he is actually a woman and to keep it between me and him (her?). I just feel like it’s a way of him controlling me because apparently he’s not being open with anyone else and it’s all very innuendo like with subtle hints. I’m not even a close friend or family member. It makes me feel very uncomfortable and I don’t like talking with him about it because it feels like a game. He doesn’t cross dress or anything, but has a clear fascination with transgenderism. It’s hard to know whether transgenderism is innately more natural in autistic people or if they are just drawn to it because it helps them explain why they feel so different and soothes an insecurity they may have. Im not sure if it’s just social contagion from going online. To me it feels like my friend is trying to put the burden of his insecurity onto me, because that’s how I feel when he makes those hints to me that he’s really a woman. I would feel a lot more comfortable if he was just content to start wearing a dress and feel comfortable in his own skin and stop drawing me into this ‘’secret’’ that he has. Also it seems like there is no clear definition of what trans actually is. And with anything that is safeguarded from being questioned, it leaves a fertile ground for manipulation. But yeah it is so nuanced and therefore should be debated.

Thanks for having Phil on and discussing this taboo and very misunderstood topic. It's fascinating how the most loud trans activists don't want people like Phil to speak on what he classifies as a sexual orientation. There is no doubt that many people feel like him, but they repress their urges completely and live extremely closeted lives.

it wasn't mobbing - it was a serious concern for women and children''s safety from the fetishes of men.

I think the point is that Phil knew what he was doing by showing up the say he did? He could have chosen to make the people at this very specific event more comfortable, but he chose to make himself comfortable at the expense of many women and men that know what his affliction is. It says a lot about his character. We all have to make the decision to put others first sometimes. Or at least we should when we know it's appropriate.

Psychotherapy is fatally liberal. Social norms are part of, and conditioned by, morality communicated through familial ties. It's when people are pressured to accept the dysfunctional as "normal" that we are being asked to abandon our evolutionary birth right and the ground rules for our foundational relationships. I am very surprised Leslie doesn't understand Peter's ideas are not only VERY unhealthy, but deeply immoral.

My understanding is that genspect is meant to be a place to discuss gender in all it's aspects, difficult and uncomfortable as those discussions may be, without those discussions being steamrolled by the T-cult, who want there to be NO discussion. Genspect was never meant to be a TERF/GC clubhouse. Maybe those who would like it to be could hold their own conference.

Fascinating conversation, much appreciated 🙏

What I would like to know is whether Phil has ever in his life been head over heels in love with someone; and whether he thinks he could fall in love with someone in the future; generally, whether ever any man with AGP stópped with that, because he fell in love.

As a heterosexual man whose struggled with trauma from abusive women in early childhood, who doesn't have this fetish, but kind of understands why these guys might be inclined to do it in the sense that if they didn't break the stockholm syndrome, they perceive empowerment and dominance as effeminine, and so emulating them, adapting their mannerism and provocative guady ridiculous flamboyant women's clothing, sexual cues, idolizing them to the point of mockng them, rather than developing their own true mature masculine identity.

Thank you for this interview. I feel like Shannon lost the love of her life. Both Shannon and Phil are so respectful. I watched both of them on Benjamin Boyce's channel and got a lot out of listening to both of them.

great discussion, thank you all. if heaps of men started wearing dresses do you think cross dressing would become less attractive to AGPs?

This reminds me of the argument that a woman ought to be able to walk the streets nude at midnight. Do we get to dictate how people dress? Do we get to dictate people's responses to how we dress?

My psychotherapist doesn't want me to consider Autogynephelia. She doesn't seem to like it as a concept: romantic self love etc. She considers it " self diagnosis " and she wants the doctors and nurses to give me the correct diagnosis of my sexuality and gender identity based on their understanding and medical expertise . But I definitely seem to think I AM an autogynaphile and why should I feel ashamed of it . God bless your God given intelligence . Trans people can be very intelligent. Sometimes we are hurting people too. Hurt by life and being born the wrong gender. Life can feel very unfair at times. It's a hard cross we have to carry. Jesus help us and just love us , warts and imperfections and all for exactly who we are. Amen. Love Marisa

The widow is absolutely correct. What he means (I believe)m is it is completely dormant the AGP's whole life, but none the less this part of him he was born with. It is not like the trans community states "they always knew", not a chance. How I understand it is, an AGP may have had childhood moments in which he tried on makeup and really liked the way he looked. Or once when he wore a dress as a kid and felt special. The man never thinks anything else more than this. Your husband absolutely was who he really was, when you were married just like the many many other married agp men. The research needs to be done as to what the trigger is, if this is something innate. It either is coming out of nowhere by a lot of sexual thoughts, porn, sex itself, crossdressing- that grew into a sissy fetish or another fetish. There is so much of this as the climit right now is so welcoming to all types of insane porn and kink that you would never be able to find 20 years ago. If you look on reddit there are so many groups of males trying to get off these "sissy fetish porn" or "Tporn" many feel like they have literally been successfully hypnotized. Im not going to play stupid, even though the trans women AGP's are. Something absolutely is triggering this to come full force. They are willfully engaging with it and THAT is how AGP is going to take control in your life. Whatever type of non-vanilla hetero sex he was into had the chance to trigger it. I believe its similar to a never before drinker being an alcoholic, and sipping a beer and spiraling into a full blown alcoholic within a year. However once you open up that AGP Box and engage it dysphoria can begin, many have said its so bad that they wanted to kill themself. Now a married straight man with kids has this debilitating arousal, which might be making him get off all day. A true addiction. The only way to treat it is to take care of the testosterone. You could do blockers solo but with most men at this stage they WANT the feminizing effects. A couple friends of mine, just got married 4 years ago, last year they had a child, the baby was 3 months old and husband suddenly pops out "I am a woman". This man was a fisher/hunter super masculine "Mans Man". He married the love of his life he had been with for 10 years. There is no way this man would have done this to his wife. As the person who he was then. Now he has turned into the selfish prick of an AGP trans but thats another story. Even if you go on MTF subs these males never had this happening before, some tell them it was "internalized transphobia" affirming that they were actually a woman all along. Thats why as female I am denying their identities. You do not get to have your cake and eat it too. You do not get to gain a great job, have a great marriage and children while using your maleness to your benefit - then suddenly at 55 your trans "woman" from doing some roleplaying unknown you had this inside you. All AGP males have typical hetero boyhood and manhood until the "ROGD". And the "ROGD" is "AGP".

I like how yall see trans men as CHILDREN when they are well into their 20s and 30s and then see and treat trans women as GROWN MEN when they are like 13 barely a teenager.

What a relief to hear such honesty and bravery in a nuanced conversation. There was at times some disagreement (even with one's own 'side') but no one was disagreeable or denigrating, rare with this sensitive topic.

good chat. thx. much to meditate on. ❤🐿

I appreciate this conversation. At the end of the day clothes are just clothes, and anyone is allowed to wear whatever clothes they want for whatever reason they want.

I would also point out that it seems like underneath this ongoing comversation is this fear of male sexuality or just men in general. I get it to a certain extent and I don't want to upset anyone but to me it is a good illustration. Gay men are not promiscuous because they're gay, they're promiscuous because they're men. There is a powerful and totally different sexual drive in men that, generally, doesn't affect women to the same degree. There is this fear that men just can't control themselves. I don't know, I feel there is still this element running through this discourse around autogynaphilia that has many of the same roots in feminist thought.

Is Phil drinking out of a 1 liter beaker?

Maybe there is good reason some people were marginalized

activism kills

It's not an sexual orientation. The only sexualities are bi, gay and lesbian.

Yeah, I’ve been to a party with a lot of people like Phil was disgusting balls hanging out lingerie stop too much information we’re talking over 30 years ago. It was like cringe.

please front your video opening with the topic, perhaps a quick definition. Yes this is marketing, but I need help. Maybe others do too. Help with complex Topics. Thanks

yeah i've reached the unpopular conclusion that it's really only AGPs (maybe AAPs also) that benefit from medical transition and the HSTs should really working on accepting themselves as gay/lesbian

Anyone who tries police appropriate dress codes according to sex does not understand the original message of feminism -- "Free to be, you and me."

Does Phil believe that there are transsexual people who are not autogynephiliac? That's something I'm curious about. I dont see why both conditions can't exist at the same time, but i often see people say only one type exists.

Doing a debate focused on the new Gender-framework would be a way of making clear to the hard-working Genspect leadership (who could doubtless use a hug after this week of bar-brawling and Phil-phussing!) that people were willing to TUCK IN to the task of debating and chewing over and reformulating the first draft.

I don't think AGP as an orientation is wrong, I mean, that's what it IS...but that doesn't mean it should be accepted. The biggest problem I have with AGP is that just because I, as a man, enjoy wearing women's clothing, the presumption is that I'm some sort of sexual deviant who is imposing my sexual preferences on people without their consent - which is simply not the case. The more shame people are made to feel about what they want to wear and how they want to express themselves, the more we naturally try to find other outlets. It's like trying to hold a float underwater. The more you try to push it down, the more it wants to come back up, and it will pursue the path of least resistance back to the surface to do so - maybe it rotates and slips out from underneath your hands. That's where the fetish part comes from. Men who want to wear women's clothes and feel *exactly the same way women describe themselves as feeling*, experience unfathomable amounts of shame about it. That shame results in fetishes for forced feminization, body swap fantasies, uniform fetishes, submissive kinks and so on. They ALL revolve around removing the shame element - "Oh, I didn't want this, I just didn't have any choice in the matter! It's not my fault!". But when you remove the shame, the kinks stop. That's why virtually every trans-woman finds their previous kinks either stop altogether, or drastically reduces. When they accept and embrace themselves fully, the shame stops, and so the motivation for the kinks no longer exists. Using my earlier analogy of a swimming float - if someone stops trying to force a float underwater, it won't try to force itself back to the surface. Is it sexually motivated? Well, to an extent. But why do women tend to like dressing up? Why do they tend to like getting made-up? Because they want to feel beautiful and/or sexy, and desirable! I like wearing strappy crop tops and 3/4 leggings at the gym because I also like feeling sexy and desirable. That doesn't mean I give a flying shit about whether you actually find me sexy or desirable. Why is it ok for a woman to do this, and when they say it, it's accepted. But when a man does, it's not? It is literally the same thing. I do not walk around the gym with a raging boner just because I am dressed like that. I walk around the gym with clarity of mind, a feeling of freedom, and that I am expressing myself the way I deeply want to. The kink aspect for many people comes from the fact they are so incredibly ashamed about wanting to express their feminine side that they do it the only way they feel able to. And I can't speak for everyone - but if I ask for a dolls house for my 7th birthday, and wished that I could wear a girls dress to school when I was 8 years old, then it's fair to say that at least in my case, it's NOT rooted in sexual deviance. The ironic thing about it all, is that that if people who don't get it would just stop shaming men about wanting to be more feminine, then the underlying motivation for the kinks would disappear, and the whole topic of AGP would be consigned to history.

Ok, I bit (at the controversy), and looked at Phil's outfit. You look great Phil! Genuinely lovely, and natural. I was hoping that by now we could all wear whatever we want… like the way that I wear "trousers" even though I'm a woman, and no one gives a ****. Thanks for the discourse…

It was good to hear this subject addressed properly.

As an autistic woman who doesnt have this condition i feel like regular people are very rigid sometimes. I totally get that trans widows are extremely hurt and she must be attached to believing her husband was normal and suddenly caught AGP because of her precious memories...its probably not true that a totally normal man just caught AGP from the internet and pron. And being connected to others in the particular way regular people find healthy isnt necessary to force on others. For me for instance i felt so much stigma about being alone but now ive come to accept myself im alone everyday outside of work now and only communicate online, and i am so much healthier mentally. We arent all average, and non-typical people dont become typical by replicating typical behaviours. Trying to replicate typical behaviours often just makes you feel like a broken typical person...but we have to be and love ourselves like regular people do ❤

I was fairly dismissive of Phil after the two interviews with Boyce. But the terven pile-on today, & general bar-brawl atmosphere, has won my sympathies to Phil's side. Nobody has emerged with receipts about any bad behavior on Phil's part; absent that, I can't credit the terven-whining as anything but paranoia. If Genspect wanted to include an event in which they hoist a blue-dressed pinata up high on a rope, blindfold the terven, and let them swing at it with their hockey-sticks, that would be a fun thing for them to participate in, and a fun thing for everyone else to watch. As to whether Phil is masochistic enough to want to be inside while they swing at the pinata, that's not my call to make.

Oof. All these narcissistic disorders. The bright colors, the attention seeking…that’s the 21st century social contagion.

The mobbing behavior is worse than the paraphilia to be honest. It is self serving arousal towards ones self. Of course they shouldnt be called a woman and be in girls sports but they are just as equal humans as any GC.

It's gross , I can't even .....

Brilliant Leslie, absolutely on the spot (59:29): "part of the sort of mantra that women have been pushing for with the female eraser that's been happening due to trans, due to gender ideology, is dress however you want but don't call yourself a woman, and so if you hear that mantra, and here you have a man who's dressing however he wants and not calling himself a woman and that's raising the same uproar, so, I thought that was a really interesting thing to note" - of course it is, and for me it is no surprise, because what ACTUALLY, TRULY, bothers TERFs is not, it NEVER WAS, the cock and bull story about "oh, they are invading our women spaces all over the galaxy and calling themselves women!!!!!"; all that talk was nothing but a sly PRETEXT to justify their real agenda, which is hatred for Femininity, especially when expressed by males. Now, let's make no mistake, TERFs don't like to see any sort of Femininity, because in their neo-Marxist simplistic worldview (ironically, Marx was a MAN), Femininity was invented by patriarchy to submit women, but TERFS want to make believe that they protect all women, and so, they control their own aggressiveness when they see feminine women, as these feminine women can be branded by TERFs as "poor victims of a patriarchal brainwash", which is quite dismissing and insulting to a good deal of cis women, especially when such women CLEARLY SAY that they perform Femininity for themselves and do their own makeup for themselves, and then the TERFs automatically dismiss such statements as lies, which literally means to disrespect the REAL women whose speech does not obey the TERFic agenda. When, however, Femininity is performed by born males, all their hatred runs free, because it's against an easy target. This is, indeed, a sort of moral COWARDICE, of hivemind hunting down a harmless scapegoat, and, quite ironically, a product of the worst form of masculinity: indeed, TERFism is an ironic form of toxic masculinity because TERFism is all about FEMMEPHOBIA, i.e., fear/anxiety regarding Femininity (Dr. Rhea Ashley Hoskin concept).

Thank you for this thoughtful talk.