Well that solves it, then! Skyrim never got the crenellation licence. High King: "But how can you deny an entire nation the licence to crenellate? Skyrim shall not be denied!" Licencing Official: "Yeah... dude, you have 'cities' with like 20 people in them. Not prestigious enough."
@@jessefisher1809 Excuse me for trying to correct a spelling mistake. Uncorrected, a mistake will become normal. I know that its obvious, otherwise I would have asked ‘what do you mean?’ Instead of offering my spelling.
I know this is an old video.. but I didn't see anyone comment it.. Markarth was built by Dwemer.. 1. Miners, so they would want to live in a mountain.. 2. They had advanced machinery.. so any lack of defensive capability of the city is automatically fixed by offensive capabilities of such machinations like the larger steam centurions; which are capable of slaughtering large groups, and Spheres; which are agile and usually equipped with self-loading crossbows.. Okay, in done ranting about disregard for lore.
@Bored Again nah, yssgramor didn't mess with the dwemer. that's why the snow elves ran to the dwemer for protection. i did have this discussion on another thread, so i'll try to make it short. the nords didn't stand a chance against the dwemer until after the aetherium wars when the dwemer nearly destroyed their own civilization in civil war. that happened to coincide with the nords receiving the power of the voice and banishing the dragons.
@@theghostofthomasjenkins9643 Okay, so I'm going to say something that may seem surprising. I don't think the Dwemer had a massive technological advantage. Oh sure, they built magic automatons, their tonal architecture is astounding, they had perhaps the greatest understanding of the nature of the dream, and I cannot deny that they eventually created the most powerful weapon to ever exist, but Dwemeri "science" is just the way they approached and thought about magic. And the Dwemer were very very good at magic, but that doesn't mean the Chimer weren't. You might be thinking "ok, but I've seen magic. A bunch of wizards are still going to struggle against an army of magic robots" and you would be right... if they were late third era/ fourth era wizards. The meta-narrative of mundus has always been that of decay, of magic growing weaker and leaving the world. Of old, the Altmer were flying around in sunbirds and dreamsleeve based memospore communication was basically the internet. Dwemer tech seems astonishingly advanced only because it is a surviving relic from a more advanced age, not more advanced culture. -copied from someone else
@@klidthelid8361 nope and there is lore that says they were advanced, even compared to the chimer. sotha sil was the smartest chimer that ever lived. even he was baffled by dwemer tech. it took him hundreds of years and becoming a god to understand it. the dragons that ruled northern tamriel and dominated the nords didn't mess with the dwemer as they saw them as equals. that's how powerful and advanced the dwemer were. the downfall of the dwemer takes place over the course of 200 years after the aetherium wars. the aetherium wars destroyed dwemer culture and left them scattered and few in number. that's when the nords, with their thu'um, were finally able to wage war on them. during this time, the dwemer were also fighting the falmer in the war of the crag and that lasted until the battle of red mountain. it's also important to note that the nords, who had a god-like ability in the voice, couldn't step foot on vardenfell because of dwemer resistance. the morrowind dwemer didn't take part in the aetherium wars nor did they have to fight falmer because they didn't have any. they were at full strength. even then chimer could make no headway against them. it took nerevar sneaking into red mountain and causing kagranac to panic to defeat the dwemer. even then, it was kagranac's screw up that doomed the dwemer, not the chimer.
While that may have been true for when the Dwemer lived there, it certainly isn't true for those who live there now. They are unable to control even the most basic of Dwemer machines and had to remove most of them to even set up shop. Sure maybe they get a centurion set on a rampage to attack those assaulting the city, but since they have no ability to control them, that centurion would likely do just as much damage to those attacking the city as those defending the city. With all of this in mind, when those who setup shop after the Dwemer disappeared, the first thing they should have done would be to upgrade the defenses to deal with attackers. Since they don't have the same advantages that the Dwemer had when they were living there. But they didn't, and so a lot of Shad's points still stand.
In the In-game lore, the race that built Markarth actually put the ‘city’ part underground. However inconvenient that might be IRL, it would certainly make up for the lack of above ground space and force attackers to penetrate multiple lines of defense before entering the city proper.
And when you actually get into the city, it has tall pillars hugged by narrow, spiraling ramps which would force invaders to proceed slowly in a single-file line while trying to navigate the maze of a city. While water prevents fall damage in-game, the fall is definitely more than high enough for the surface tension to be deadly to anybody who falls from one of the walkways, in a more realistic setting. There aren't even stairs or safety rails. It is just smooth stone with ornate trim at a steep incline. The Dwemer also have a switch they would pull once the attackers got that far to wake up automatons to fight them on those narrow walkways. Since they could use the Calling to communicate across long distances, they would only need a single actual Dwemer watching for invaders and another waiting beside the lever for the first Dwemer to let them know when to pull it.
LordAziki the dwemer wouldn't need to pull a switch, the defences were always active, we don't no why under Markath they were deactivated, probably from when the Nords first settled there. Also there is not much point having crenellations to protect the defenders from arrow fire as the were automatons and made from stiff that's stronger than the steel we use today
U know... The front part past the gatehouse is buried from a landslide that happened long ago and those little towers u see are actually taller and the small walls next to them are too.
@SH Games He is comparing Markarth to real castles to see how realistic it’s defenses are. Also, Markarth is not an underground city, Nchouand-Zel is, Markarth is just the human city.
Jesus, This is my most played game I have over a a thousand hours and made hundreds of characters and thought I knew every secret, Detail and easter egg and yet I had no Idea there was a secret passage in that River beside the gate house. Even now I keep discovering new things about this game. Jesus this fucking game....
Advice on what though... Shad and the others are historical channels. These are "fantasy" games. They need to have no place int eh realm of huamn history. Plus Markarth is a Dwarven city. Its mostly below the ground.
considering TES VI would be likely on summerset isles which is home to the high elves you can already forget about realism , their main city is described as being made out of glass or insect wings and full of high towers
Well then you will need the help of Plutus (son of Demeter and the god of wealth) and possibly also Hephaestus, provided that Plutus has enough money to hire another god :-)
I have played Skyrim for hours on end and didn't know that Markarth had a sallyport... this game is amazing and the vid was too :D So much stuff I never noticed about Markarth and I noticed how you put rock music behind your machicolation scream XD It's a nice touch ^^
True. I played Skyrim for almost 7 years and never knew that. But the cities in Skyrim have so many hidden things, I’m still wowing at some of the things I find. It’s an awesome game
"Ya one of my subscribers sent me some photos of this castle, they visited it, and take a look at these" me, "CRAP CRAP* *frantically turns volume down* "MACHICOLATIONNNNNSSSSSSSSS!" One more storm has been weathered, but at least I surviv-MACHICOLATONNSSSSSS RIP my ears 2017-2017
Regarding the license to build crenalations; in Denmark, you did not need a license, but from somewhere in the 13th century, it was taxated to have crenalations on the top of your farm (or "house-keep", whatever you want to call a large, sturdy house). I don't know how expensive it was to have, but there are a number of examples of nobles, who tore down their crenalations in peacefull times, and rebuild them in more turbulent times (being the only alteration to their homes to change the laws definition). Just thought anyone would find that interesting here :p
When you're done reviewing all the castles of Skyrim, you should make a video on which Skyrim castle/city you think has the best defenses. I think that would be an interesting way to wrap the Skyrim reviews up. Love you videos, and looking forward to more of these.
massaweed420 hate to disagree but there is one thats better. There is this really entertaining and accurate series by one of my favorite internet personalities. Its on pornhub.
If you look closely you can actually chains holding up the door on the side or the first gate, meaning that markath does, in fact, actually have a proper front gate. Also keep in mind that all doors you see in the city are full metal
Haha, that Doctor Who part surprised me! "Bigger on the inside" is so true of Skyrim's buildings. The nords: the original Time Lords! Great vid as always, Shad!
if anyone in the comments knows how to edit terrain, maybe they could make a properly fortified places mod? it'd be cool to see shad's thoughts on these given form (and nice to see walking around in the game)
Biscuit Tactician i do (the basics) and certain things are more doable than others. You see cities exists of so many custom pieces that are especially designed for that city. This comes in additon to a ungodly ammount of invisible markers that affect quests and dialogue and Npcs and events. (i was kinda shocked at how much there was) so alot of it cannot really be changed without major difficulties. However minor edits here and there are still very possible as well as adding new structures outside the cities. :) but very skilled people could probably do more than me :)
each city is a puzzle all the stuff you see are customized small pieces. take markarth for example when you enter the city that market place consists of various custom meshes, the mountain peices are seperated into small puzzle peices,the floor is all one piece in that section, the door frames fit into the slots and even the water is made to perfectly fit into that space. the point is it is impossible to rebuild the cities the only thing that is possible is to add small things to make it feel more full than it is
Devon North its more about having the hard first R and then the dropped second one, they're supposed to be the same syllables, so have both or drop both, marrkarrth or mahkahth, not some weird Frankenstein word.
I haven't even played Skyrim (DF and MW only, here, thus far), and I've watched three of your videos so far of realistic Skyrim castle analyses, and I have to say I love these videos. Having designed some multiplayer levels/arenas for a few games, I especially appreciate the architectural knowledge -- as you said in one of your other videos, realism is important, even if only (for some) at a subconscious level. If an area is less believable, there's a greater chance they may be pulled out of the experience. I had to pause at 17:25 to write this comment because of that detailed explanation (and images) of the archer spots. Great videos.
The floor is practical castles Video games: Oh hell no! Rule of cool is better than practicality! Shadiversity (With sword in hand): Machiculations!!!!! Now!!!!
Great video! One major point that needs to be considered with Markarth specifically is that it is a reclaimed Dwarven City, adapted for use by the Nords. As such, many features could have had potentially different significance for the original Dwemer inhabitants. For example, the lack of crenelations on the gatehouse or outer towers could have been to provide a wider range of fire for ballistae, which the Dwemer were known to utilise. It is also possible that some features were not intended with a military application; the Guard Tower may well have been the observatory for a Dwemer astronomer, and its internal workings removed or scavenged over the millennia.
Would you be open to reviewing a non-european castle/fortress in the future? Something like Fasil Ghebbi in Ethiopia. It would really help me with my worldbuilding.
Okay, you're right, BUT... Markarth is a re-use of Dwemer surface workings as a human city. Looking at it from a Dwemer perspective, its just a surface fortress/trade settlement for an underground city (Nchuand-Zel) with only one entrance. Plus, that entrance has been excavated by Calcelmo; what defenses were in his way? What did he have dismantled once he'd learned all he could from it? Look at Arkngthamz and its tonal locks! Food for thought!
Also there is a big river which comes from the "city" ! Was it too hard to make a simple moat! A simple example would be this: l - The river inside the city I============I - City walls \_____ll_____ - First moat (with a bridge, or better - a drawbridge) _____ll____/ - Second moat ( with a bridge if course, and I made it so the river will continue flowing the same way afterwards) l - The river as we see it in the game l - The river continues flowing
At the mention of the gates and the murder hole, I find it an interesting point to mention that Markarth is an ancient city recovered by the nords. If you look at the spots where doors should be, you notice an outline as if doors were there originally. So it could be argued that the gate house could have had them but that they were lost. Now this still means the nords were nunces for not constructing replacement doors in those places.
I would love to see him compare 4th era Skyrim ( when the game Skyrim takes place) forts and cities compare to Skyrim 2nd era ( the Elder Scrolls Online) forts and cities.
I think you understated the efficiency of the various elevated regions across the city. The whole city has at least two layers, so if, during a siege, the defenders were able to block off the ability to get onto the second level, they would be in serious danger at all points. There's also the opportunity to divert the constant water flow and flood the attackers out
Right, the mod removed the door because there is no fully open version of the door like the gates to Helgen. They would of have to make a new door that has an fully opening animation.
+NekoVeil What do you mean? You can see the door is there, but open in some shots, and closed in others. He has Open Cities installed, which has a door opening animation +Johann Sigurdsson In addition to pointing out the door is not removed, just open, there is still only one door on the inside of the gatehouse, there should also be another door or portcullis on the outside, and doors blocking access to the ramparts, to make the murder hole useful at all
moongirl786 I seem to remember entering and exiting the Markarth zone involved interacting with a door before reaching the access to the ramparts, meaning the mod removes one of the doors and makes the other openable. I might be mistaken as it's been years since I last played the game, as to the doors/gates/portcullises to reach the ramparts, yes I agree there should be something there.
I think it should be mentioned that Markarth does actually have a gate at its gatehouse, in fact there even is a built model for it in the game files. It is, for some reason, unused in the actual game, as they only used it during cut content (The Siege of Markarth), but it is technically still there and used in case of an actual siege. You can still see it if you play one of the mods that overhaul the civil war.
I have one point about the "gatehouse". In the lore, Markarth is a Dwemer city re-used as a modern city. It is likely that it's also considered a historical site meaning they cant remove the stairs and replace it with a drawbridge. The entire city was supposedly originally carved out of the mountain. Carving out a drawbridge would be very difficult
for the palaces "defensive wall" not having any crenelations you have to think about the absolute strain someone would have to put on themselves just to fire at such an angle, the height alone solves the lack of defenses problem
Hey, if you're reading this Shad, firstly I love your videos, however, one thing that might be worth considering and mentioning when reviewing the effectiveness of a castle, is what it's designed to defend from. Now one thing in the entire Elder scrolls series that isn't mentioned too much, is siege equipment - like, we know it exists (as it's shown in the siege of Whiterun for instance, however it's worth noting that Nords are magic-phobic) but it's fairly rare, and obviously not as well developed as in the real medieval period - therefore, one must consider that the replacement must be mages - now, this isn't the usual 'but magic' argument, because the reality is that truly powerful mages, capable of teleporting or levitating any number of people are exceedingly rare, but your average garden-variety mage who can throw a few fireballs are ten a penny, and a much more viable/easy solution to bring 5 or 6 mages in an army than spend a couple of days and a few dedicated siege engineers to build equipment that might very well fuck up if the weather's wrong. As such, things like crenellations could potentially work as shot-traps for explosive fireballs, which could otherwise be dodged, and machicolations just an easy way for attackers to flamethrower the defenders. Therefore (and this is the important bit) defences in TES games are designed to channel, inconvenience and disadvantage attackers rather than stop them dead, because if you're gonna take the time to smash down a well-fortified gatehouse, then you might as well instead try to attack the walls and defences themselves rather than just the people inside it, so, just like a tower defence game, you never stop them doing something, you just make it hard to do, and far more costly for them, than for you. And if you've read that little essay, thanks for your time, and do you agree/disagree? :)
For all the people who got sick of these defensive oversights such as myself, i leave this link for you all. Holds The City Overhaul Mod -> www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/74638/?
One important factor in where the fortifications are located, is the fact that it is there to protect the Dwemer "mine," which is why it making located there actually makes a great deal of sense.
One thing to be noted is that Markarth was originally a Dwarven city, and almost the entire original city is underground inside the mountain and it only had an outside area for trade and interaction with other races. But the only thing they were really worried about defending was Understone keep and the city network it leads into.
It sucks that effective architecture faces difficulty with First Person views used in games. It would be cool if you could upload your castles into a VR space and walk around in it Shad.
Even though this was made a year ago I must say thanks shad for giving me some things to think about with my skyrim role play group we just got to markarth thanks man
Here is my defense. From a game playing standpoint, a traditional castle took months to break through. It wouldn't be so fun to have to lay siege to a castle for months. But you could incorporate plague into the game and have most of the players die in bed, OR NOT. Instead, you could make a castle that can be besieged successfully in an hour or two. By that design, it succeeds. Anyway, from a learning experience, I really enjoyed this and learned a lot. Subscribed.
What if you blocked the river from exiting through the castle walls? If you manage to fill up the inside of the castle with water, you may destroy lots of supplies and maybe even damage the castle walls or at least the gate. It may also disrupt the defenders ability to defend the wall (e.g. if food supply is cut off), so you may have an opportunity to climb the walls without facing too many enemy attacks.
Thumbed it up, though I recall a few things about Markarth is that it wasn't built by the Nords, but the Dwemer (dwarves) and the Nords just moved in and used what was there. From what I remember about the game, the crenelations aren't on the outer most wall due to the fact that they used their machines as the main defenders on the outer wall, mainly their Ballisti which was a sphere that fired bolts at attackers and was possibly more heavily armored on the front side where it shot from (Don't ask how it reloads as that's just some dwemer devilry there). So their defenses were a mix between what was the existing fortifications, and their metal soldiers (check out the centurions for an example) and less on their actual fleshy bodies outside of maybe(possibly?) their spell casters. Still, Markarth has more going for it than Windhelm and Solitude (and it's gravity defying rock formations.) But in all honesty, Skyrim's cities with fortifications like that suffered due to Bethesda's choice to shorten and cut a lot of content involving the Civil War quests which I think caused them to cut out a LOT of possibilities that could have updated and fixed up places like Markarth that could have turned it and other places like Whiterun into PROPER castles with all the things they SHOULD have had but didn't get thanks to the devs not wanting to take too long on the game development. Really, I feel like Skyrim got the worst end of the stick when it comes to stuff like this when Oblivion had some BEAUTIFUL architecture in it and that was an older game with worse graphics.
Markarth was build by the Dwemer Empire to work as a tradestation with the other factions in skyrim. Markarth was just a gatehouse with a pretty large marked in. The city itself was build inside the mounatin and underground with much more defences. Defences we will never see in it's full glory because the dwemers are gone.
I just noticed what could possibly be a broken oblivion gate on the far right on 10:48. Interesting.... Also, a weakness I just thought of is that they couldn't reliably repair their defenses If they were to be damaged because of the advanced technology the dwarves had to create the city. Same thing goes for making new fortifications. But a bonus is that if they were able to claim the under ground bits of markarth they could expand the city underground.
Might I add something? The river that flows right over the palace and into the city. That would be a NIGHTMARE for maintenance I think. Stone would be loosened, broken up, and carried away and thus requiring the replacing of stone very frequently. Iron will rust like nobodies business, even if it wasn't touching the river because of all the mist it kicks up. So your guards will constantly need to replace their weapons and armor or else adopt different materials in their equipment. Wood will also have issues around the river because I am pretty sure it is more useful and sturdy when dry instead of wet, though I'm not an expert when it come to wooden materials. Unless the Nords emulated the Dwarves that built the city and made everything out of brass or gold, the city seems like it would fall apart in a matter of a decade or less.
Shad you have the "Open Cities Skyrim" mod installed which changes the front wall which you spend most of your time on, most of the things you comment on aren't in the vanilla game eg. the murderhole, secret passage by the river and arrow slits.
I think Hyrule Castle from OOT is a good example of how someone would make a castle near a mountain. There is almost no way to get up the mountain with any force bigger than 3 unarmored people, such a way can be blocked, and taking that path only clears you of the two gate houses, at which point, you'll be running in a open field with only one tree to protect yourself, so that would make your only option being.... Take the draw bridge and the first gatehouse to enter the city, Take the castle town, which in Breath Of The Wild has two gaurd houses, Take the second gatehouse, and finally charge the castle as arrows rain down on you. Oh right, the castle has a draw bridge of its own so any attacker must take that too
There were a plenty of cities built at a base of a hill in middle ages. Ussualy between a river and a hill, and generaly with the castle atop of the hill.
In Elder Scrolls lore, a fortress built against a mountain has only been assaulted once from the mountain side. It was the fortress of Sancre Tor, in the second era, by Tiber Septim.
If Shad has taught me anything about Castles and how to build them there are two things that should never come in short supply. 1. Gates/ Gatehouses 2. Walls and layers of defense. Throw in some machicolations, murder holes, merlons, and arrow slits and you should be just fine. Oh and put it on top to the nearest hill. Sounds good? Sounds good.
When you play the Questline to take Markarth, there is a second gate. You have to use the secret entrances to penetrate the gatehouse and let the army through.
With the themes of decay and finality in Skyrim it's u derstandable why so many places are falling apart or severely out of date. It would have been cool if as the civil war ramped up that the big Jarls started investing in some repairs or even construction. Like as quests and events go by eventually they all would get some of Shads critiques put in place. There could even be an issue of higher taxes and potentially forced labor on the defences to show the conflict is reaching a breaking point. The little Jarls could have invested in wooden watch towers or palisades or even just building a keep. They could just build a mound and a baily. Or they could invest in better patrolls. Morthal could have used a draw bridge
I once built a castle in Minecraft and the spiders kept coming over so I added crenellations. They still kept coming over so I had to add machicolations, what they were just blocks to keep them off. That worked pretty well.
Forts built up against mountains would be easy to block off. Say you have a 10×10 meter keep out in the open. It has 9x9 meters of floorspace plus 1 meter thick walls. Now say an arrow can be fired 100 meters. That gives a circle with a radius of 105 meters. I figure attacker would want to set up a few meters beyond bow range. Let's give the beseigers a circle with a radius of 110 meters to enclose. That means a perimeter of 690.8 meters. For reference the keep in this scenario has 81m² of floorspace. Build that same 81m² keep against the flat side of a mountain. That is one less side of the 9x9 square that you half to build. It also cuts the perimeter an enemy has to enclose in half. I'm not sure how this math translates to real seiges. I'm also not sure how to do the math that explains Markarth's position tucked in the corner of two jutting rocks. My intuition is that it makes seige lines even shorter.
