A Critique of Prayer to the Saints 

0:00-4:33 intro about his organisation 4:33-7:22 further reading 7:22-9:00 what is invocation of the saints? 9:00-9:45 Invocation and lutheranism 9:45- 12:57 the tradition of Rome, middle ages 12:57- 14:14 do catholics worship saints? 14:14-17:00 is there scriptural basis for veneration of saints? 17:00-21:35 what does the roman catechism say? 21:35 - 23:53 fundamentals of catholicism - Kenneth Baker 23:53-25:42 discussion of sola scriptura and the role of the church 25:42 Kenneth Baker again, veneration of angels, Dr. Jordan Cooper's disagreement with this 29:05-30:52 prayer vs worship 30:52-32:21 if saints can hear prayers, are they omnicient like GOD? 32:21-36:40 martyrs in the early church, contrast to paganism 36:40-40:00 Baker's response to the views of the reformers, Cooper's response to Baker, mediators powered by Christ 40:00-43:55 Do I adapt to scripture, or do I adapt scripture to me? 43:55-47:50 veneration of the relics of the saints, GOD works miracles through physical things 47:50-55:45 veneration of images vs idol worship 55:45-57:46 suggestions for further study

Dr. Cooper, I have watched many of your videos and really appreciate your teaching. I am a pastor myself and, even though I am not Lutheran, I have learned a lot about the Luther perspective.

I also think that if the veneration of the saints and Mary were a so important part of christian piety (like it is in Roman Catholicism) it would definitely be mentioned by Jesus and the Apostles. That’s however not the case.

This really goes back to the core issue of the gospel: if you get the gospel wrong, you eventually get other issues wrong. Rome's "add-on" doctrines (purgatory, prayers to saints, near-deification of Mary, indulgences, etc) illustrate this perfectly well. American evangelicalism, to a lesser extent, exemplifies this as well.

thank you Dr. Cooper. One of the best Evangelical Protestant (original historical meaning) response I had the pleasure of listening to. I though I knew a lot about this topic, having studied RCC theology in the past, but I learned a few new things and great insights as you dissected the topic into smaller chunks. Good job!

this is the reason i want to leave my orthodox church. even though i am open to the idea of the intercession of saints as prayer but not based on our devotion, closeness and prayer to them. the way the church sees the saints and especially the virgin Mary is totally unacceptable for me. i had a lots and lots of thoughts about this and the only way i could justify my belief is believing in God alone and being devote to him alone. i admire the way some evangelicals love Jesus and i always thought why is our church loveless towards Christ, he is just a fact to be recognized and saints and angles are to have a relationship with. i struggled with this a lot. And i heard testimonies of miracles of angles more than any saint even the Theotokos.. and they exist in the time of apostles and Jesus and before them but none of them prayed to them nor even become devote. so instead of praying to any saint i recognize that their prayers BUT as i recognize some fact like the existence of angels and how they come to us like as in the scriptures. it's clear the catholic and orthodox churches have different ideas of intercession but i can truly say from experience and research the eastern and most oriental orthodox churches clearly worship the Theotokos. and even though the eastern church doesn't name her mediator their prayers they are not asking for intercession but as the mediator which all grace and forgiveness come true. The oriental church i have to say is diverse with half to most Copts being non worshipers at all. not sure about the Middle eastern's but they seems to be pretty close with Christ. the Ethiopians and the Eritreans are without question worst than any catholic or eastern would be. Worship of saints is the virus of Catholicism and orthodoxy.

Thank you for making such detailed videos.

Dr. Cooper ... How about a video on why you chose Lutheranism over Anglicanism? Both pros and cons

Genuine question if a catholic in USA and a catholic in Asia are praying simultaneously to a Saint, whose prayer would be heard, as Saints aren't omniscient and omnipresent?

Thank you for the discussion. However when you quote Luther could you please as part of the discussion or in the description give the citations from Luthers works

Can you send a link for the book you reference which goes into patristic sources 9n this topic. Many thanks!

I love that you tried to nail this issue ...with words. And keep on trying. It does open the eyes of our mind. BUT we are doomed to fail. None of us can nail in words, or exactly describe in time, what is essentially beyond time. It's the wrong tool for the job.

Pastor, you've mentioned about developments in doctrines and that the church cannot stablish new doctrines. But if the church establish a doctrine that is not actually in the Bible but can be derived from her through implications?

I think it would be really interesting for you to interact with or have a discussion with the guys from the 'Reason and Theology' channel

The lutherans in general based in their confessions avoid invocation of the Saints. But concerning the Marian doctrines (immaculate conception, etc.), what is the view or nuances (if there are) of lutherans scholars and cleargy about that? Thank you very much.

Jordan - Is that a one volume edition of Chemnitz's Examination of the Council of Trent you were holding up? I can only find the 4 volume set at CPH? Is there somewhere one can get the 1 volume edition?

Long story short: Sola Scriptura Thanks for the great video Dr. Cooper

May I add? You do speak of medieval times regarding the Western Church, but there is also how this developed in the East, which I find to be more healthy, so to speak. Do you have a video of this at all?

So umm, what happens when a Saint runs out of his positive merit? (from a Roman Catholic perspective that is of course). Also, good job on Steel-manning their perspective. More people should do that.

Great video. As an Anglican (specifically within the Anglo-Catholic Tradition), I am fine with Prayers to the Saints. Anglo-Catholics generally hold to a more modest view of it than what the Roman Tradition practices; ours is far more patristic.

Thank you doing this video! Really helpful

Just reading Robert Jenson's Wikipedia page. I thought it weird that the protestant outside of Anglicanism would advocate for the intercession of the saints, but the guy gets a lot weirder. Apparently he was a liberal Lutheran in the 1960's but got more conservative as he interacted with Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Anglicanism.

Very helpful. Thank you!

What’s the response if Catholics say to refer to Jesus speaking to Moses (who clearly isn’t living on Earth but in heaven) during the transfiguration, and that if Jesus did this as a man, we should replicate the same?

It is admitted that these doctrines can find a seed or root of origin within scripture and the early church, but the developments are dismissed as being corruptions. But every Christian doctrine has developed, even down to the fundamentals of the creeds. So the question is, how do we determine which doctrines have rightly developed and which ones have been corrupted? How do we determine what Christianity is and is not?

The channel Reason and Theology has provided an interesting response to this video that is definitely worth a watch.

Good video love the detail . One suggestion. State your beliefs on the subject then explain it. A few times I couldn’t exactly understand what your view was. I did finally get where you were coming from at time only after mentioned that something was unbiblical . It would help us slow folks a lot if ya stated what believe then explain. Still great topic and excellent channel! Blessings

The one thing Dr Cooper has said that is so true is this discussion is highly complex. My complaint with Dr Cooper is that he has a limited idea of the meaning of the Incarnation. Humans all share in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. Well, anyways ... i don’t think Dr Cooper has to worry too much about over venerating the saints in our nice urban areas with a high educated society and ready access to the Bible and teachers. Catholics have indeed made adjustments to turn towards the Bible and place Jesus Christ more in the forefront of faith. Catholics in the modern world are much better educated than in just 100 years ago. But ... it would be helpful if Dr Cooper had a better appreciation and understanding of the human creature, as Christ asks of us. In my reading of Russian literature i often think of the peasants in past centuries with no education and who live in these vast regions. They only have access to really dumb priests and occasional services. Not hardly did billions of humans through the ages everywhere in the world have any ability to read the Bible. To those most common people it is far more to their understanding to be hear stories of humans who have lived the life of christ. It makes it more real to them. These saintly humans demonstrate charity and blessed the very, very poor, and have healed the sick. These peasants carry in the their hearts and mind devotions, candles, icons that speak to the human heart. They make pleas to a favorite saint for protection and healings. These people are damn ignorant and poor. Christ’s love has been brought for their salvation without a single word of the Bible outside an occasional reading of a small passage at the liturgy. Of course, our peasants ask the saints for favors. God the father who is love is going to listen to the human creatures he created, both living and dead. Sorry ... just doing this rant out of respect for billions of christians who have carried the gospel in their hearts forward to the present day. This is just a reminder that Catholicism and Orthodoxy was shaped in an era of illiteracy. You can imagine bringing the gospel to the Aztecs in mexico or Incas 500 years ago. Protestant reflections on the gospel message was formed in an era of growing literacy and comfort.

"I would addresse My vows to thee most gladly, Blessed Maid, And Mother of my God, in my distresse [...] But now, alas, I dare not; for our King, Whom we do all joyntly adore and praise, Bids no such thing: And where his pleasure no injunction layes, (’Tis your own case) ye never move a wing." --George Herbert

I kind of believe there must be some form of purgatory. Where one can continue ones development towards following Christ. I don't think it's a place though, it's more of a process of love and realisation. The idea of saints buying off that experience seems to destroy the whole point of growing in Christ, and makes it so either it's not really you coming out the other side, or saying there is no need for growth and experience.

Jordan, Many in the early Church sought the mediation and intercession of mere human beings like Peter and Paul and their prayers and shadow and handkerchiefs, and NOT EVEN DEATH CAN SEPARATE US, ( Acts 5:15, Acts 9:38,40, Acts 19:11, 2 Kings 13:21, Revelation 6;9). Indeed, the prayers of a righteous person have Great power in its effects, ( James 5:16), and no one is more righteous than those in Heave, especially the Mother of God and Saint Joseph to ask their intercession for us to Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior! You are in my prayers Jordan as you journey toward Truth! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink

Based on the handy outline someone offered below it appears all arguments will be with Rome. But you are swimming against orthodoxy, both chalcedonian and oriental, as well. I think the most that can be said would be that those who invoke the mediation of the saints can take it too far .

32:19 I totally agree, however I just like to point out Eastern Orthodox like to cite John 14:12 here "you will do greater things ". I think that's just bad understanding. Because by that logic you who believes in God can be even greater than God.

For anyone who objects to any veneration of the Saints I'd direct them to Revelation 8:3-4. We seem to forget that the Church is a supernatural reality and only focus on the earthly presence and organization. St. Paul presents the church as a body which includes the citizens in Heaven. We share that holy fellowship with them. A Saint is someone who lives in the presence of God in the Kingdom of Heaven. They are the great of cloud of witnesses, so while I enjoy your videos I would object to this particular Protestant position as being ahistorical and unscriptural.

Just as many in the early Church sought the mediation and intercession of mere human beings like Peter and Paul and their prayers and shadow and handkerchiefs, so too even now, for NOT EVEN DEATH CAN SEPARATE US! Especially the Mother of God, she who moved her Son and Lord to perform His first public miracle, even though it was not yet His hour, touched by His Mother's compassion for the wedding couple, as the prayers of a righteous person have Great power in its effects! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink

What about the East? They were untouched by the West in Luther’s time and they still believed in prayer for Saints.

Man... The ads are overwhelming

I wonder, do Saints have an unlimited supply of merits to dish out?

If you realise that you are on a sinking ship, then a prayer to St Paul is an obvious one to think about. There are Protestant sects that would allow you to pray to Jahbulon or Osiris. Any comments? What alternative prayer might you recommend? I would suggest that over the course of a year, we say all the psalms plus each of six Approved Litanies of the Catholic Church. I have dealt with this in a separate posting.

Thank you.

Don't have the time (I have a full time job!) to say and demonstrate why I don't find what you say compelling (but I do think you have done some Catholic homework and are attempting to be fair). I will just make three points in the time I can devote to this comment: 1) I think you generally are conflating, in this video anyway, all post "early church" (ante Nicene?) history as one - i.e. as the "medieval system" . The one spot you don't do this is the 5-7th century where you concede that veneration of icons had developed far enough to elicit the iconoclastic controversy. And the question is whether you viewed that development as legitimate (which Nicea II did so view it)? If no, then you are in disagreement with an ecumenical council. If yes, then you need to make a more detailed argument (which I assume you and Chemitz will in the next video) to make some further distinctions as to why the development of the invocation of the saints (and relic veneration which was earlier) was not a legitimate development or at what point it went too far. And then has the Lutheran tradition truly gone back to the early practices that were legitimate in your view or have they arguably thrown the baby out with the bathwater 2) My conversion was through reading the early church fathers - and yes organically at least up to Augustine (very few have read "all" of Augustine - I have read quite a bit). It wasn't through "Catholic Answers". I got the set on "CD" (way back in the day) and tried to protect myself by getting the set with the introductions drawn from Anglican Divines etc which would refute any "romish" implications. I was not convinced by those prefaces. I agree about development, and I could see the kernel of it developing before my very eyes. In particular the relatively rich history of letters between Rome and Carthage during the period around the Decian/Valerian era persecutions. There were many who "lapsed" and they asked the "confessors" who were languishing in prison to intercede for them (with the Bishops) to be re-admitted to the Church. Some acquired letters from the holy confessors. The Bishops asserted their authority to decide but the intercession of a confessor and especially one who became a martyr was taken into account due to their holiness. And during these times, it was experienced as more than a "theological idea" that the martyrs were immediately alive with Christ in heaven- it was a powerful reality (which also led to conversions). So you can begin to see that if a confessor could intervene while on earth and the next day was killed and "even more alive with Christ in heaven" , it was going to be a next step to ask the martyr to intercede on your behalf in heaven (to the point you conceded in the video that we do in fact intercede for each other in at least some fashion you accept). It is simply whether one accepts sacred tradition and what legitimate development is. As another example, prayer for the dead was very early - clearly a tradition in the church established well before Augustine (surely you don't deny that) and I find it strange that the reformers threw that completely out rather than "reforming" it. 3) On your argument from the Letter to the Hebrews - I address that argument in my comment on your video on Eucharistic Sacrifice where you made the argument. As always I enjoy your videos and always learn something from them and look forward to Chemnitz

Oh this gonne be good

Wow, these are strong efforts to make followers of Lutheranism.

Mary and Saint veneration are middle ages idea that came from cultural ideas

First

The reason why the early church fathers practiced the invocation of the saints was because they engaged in disciplined theological reflection on those things that are certainly implicit in Scripture. I am not speaking of the Romish Medieval doctrine, but rather what we see in the same fathers that brought to you orthodox doctrine--that is, it does not come from the authority of Tradition, as Rome would have it. I find it interesting that most Christians desire to claim the orthodoxy of the first five centuries, but not the orthopraxy from these same fathers who gave us orthodox doctrine. Your disagreement is mostly with the Roman Church, yet you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I find a huge problem to be the Roman Catholic understanding of what makes one a "saint"! I was very Catholic til age 23... when I look through my Catechism now, I see a LOT of man's reasoning, overcomplicating, and twisting of the Scriptures... moreso than anything positive.

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To Catholics the arguement od the saints are alive. I am a saint, so you can pray to me for intercessiom. It is this distancing of the relationship with God by having all these mediators : saints in heaven, priests, popes, Mary. etc. . So ok, I am in the body of Christ, so your prayers should be directed to me, and I will dispatch these prayers to another intetcessor in Heaven, and they will bounce this prayer to the Pope and so on. And by the way I can handle millions of prayers at the same time. . It is not because an early christian writer even mentions 1 prayer to Mary, that it takes this practice right or of it was rampant in the church or in selected churches.. The Jews had a tendancy to mix Yahwey and other gods-rituals . I really do not see that this doctrine-practice is equipping the saints on earth. Faith in the Father, Son and Spirit alone.

Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done. Consider the characteristics of God. God is omnipresent-everywhere at once-and is capable of hearing every prayer in the world (Psalm 139:7-12). A human being, on the other hand, does not possess this attribute. Also, God is the only one with the power to answer prayer. God is omnipotent-all powerful (Revelation 19:6). Certainly this is an attribute a human being-dead or alive-does not possess. Finally, God is omniscient-He knows everything (Psalm 147:4-5). Even before we pray, God knows our genuine needs and knows them better than we do. Not only does He know our needs, but He answers our prayers according to His perfect will. So, in order for a dead person to receive prayers, the dead individual has to hear the prayer, possess the power to answer it, and know how to answer it in a way that is best for the individual praying. Only God hears and answers prayer because of His perfect essence and because of what some theologians call His “immanence.” Immanence is the quality of God that causes Him to be directly involved with the affairs of mankind (1 Timothy 6:14-15); this includes answering prayer. Even after a person dies, God is still involved with that person and his destination. Hebrews 9:27 says so: “…Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” If a person dies in Christ, he goes to heaven to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1-9, especially verse 8); if a person dies in his sin, he goes to hell, and eventually everyone in hell will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15). God has provided His Son, Jesus Christ, to be the mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). With Jesus Christ as our mediator, we can go through Jesus to God. Why would we want to go through a sinful dead individual, especially when doing so risks the wrath of God?

Soft on catholics

If you believe Jesus brought salvation to earth, you *will* petition them in heaven. If you do not do this, it's a serious sign you are currently cut-off from heaven. It should *not* be expected that people at the time of the NT are contacting their brethren in heaven. This is just common sense. And no, no one before Jesus is a Saint of any Church. That starts with St. John The Baptist. You can't dream imaginations in your mind and think that counts for anything. That isn't a show of faith. You need to show your faith in Christ's Salvation by doing something. If you believe Jesus brought salvation, than you WILL gladly contact those in heaven. Or maybe you just don't believe people are really in heaven like so many these days? Does Jesus needs to come all over again?

38:37 lol you actually think you are greater than a Saint in heaven. wow. like... WOW.

The intercession of saints is taught repeatedly in the scripture - both old and the new testament. You and other protestants are notorious heretic(s) and sadly in a way to damnation. I'll pray for you.

The saints are dead

......another protestant Joker

Mary as Mother of God is simply not possible - God was not created by anyone, let alone Mary, who would obviously have had to have pre-existed Him to do so, and there was never a time when God didn't exist. She was mother of Jesus the Son, and only Jesus. Just as God did not die on the cross, Jesus did, to call Mary Mother of God is a complete theological nonsense - God has no mother.