A Lively Debate on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (with Robert Wright) 2/19/24 

Sooo true

Agreed. Unfortunately, it really is a case of two sides fundamentally different - the Jews who were always in the Levant, including Jerusalem, over the thousands of years of their history, have always been the naturally more conservative...and for the most part lived peacefully (dhimmi status aside) in the Muslim world. While the Jews of Europe and Spain were largely marginalised, they nevertheless absorbed elements of their new surroundings (modernity, technology, political ideology etc.) Thus these Jews were fundamental in the creation of the new state of Israel. The whole new creation of the new Israel brought with it huge costs and tragedies : getting all Israelis to learn Hebrew, accommodating the more "backward" Yemeni Jews, etc. It is only now, after 100 years, that we have a modern Israel with a "Mizrahi flavour" and an acceptance of themselves as people of the Middle East. The Jews historically have never been a large, war-like people...they never wanted to be Mongols or Romans. They were destroyed by the Romans, one might say, because they were closer ! And of the two peoples, Mongols and Jews, which one has contributed more to human civilisation ? I submit that even if the Romans had not destroyed the Temple and dispersed the Jews, they would have survived as a small people in their homeland, and survived even the Islamic invasions of the 7th century. Today, it is 1-2% of the 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide who have been awarded the Nobel prize. Of the 15 million Jews worldwide, 25% are Nobel prize winners.

EXCELLENT…!

There are a few other hidden fundamental differences that separate Muslims from everyone else. (1) the Koran allows Muslims to justify any behavior or act of violence they carry out, provided they can spin it as defending Islam against a picture, and image, something someone said, or even implied, if they consider it to be offensive by any standard of the imagination. (2)Another aspect of Islam is you’re not allowed to question any of its many contradictions. (3) That means Islam, by its very nature, is totalitarian. (4) As a result, negotiation is not acceptable as a means of resolving disputes. Only war and violence is respected in Islam. (5) Islam/Muhammed/Allah are all treated as being one and the same; a perceived slight against one is a slight against all three. (6) One of Islam’s (Koran) main themes is how to deal with very low self esteem, and how to restore honor. Low self esteem emanates from the Jews, who Islam refers to as “filthy dogs” (English translation of the Arabic), a people who no other country wants, keep winning wars against all odds. (7) Rather than entertaining the possibility that Islam isn’t the world’s first choice of religions, and that maybe Allah isn’t greater than all other gods, it acts under the premise that its only a matter of time until Islam reasserts its power and regains its lost prestige, primarily in the form of worldwide caliphates. (The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem said exactly the same thing, when Hitler was stopped by the Red Army at the Iraq) Iran? border). (8) Knowing that the last Caliphate was still in existence less than 100 years ago, means that radical Muslims don’t think it’s impossible to resurrect it. (9) That Islam considers itself to be under an existential threat justifies using violence against any perceived threat. It feels it constantly needs to restore its honor, and to prove that its god is greater than all other gods. (10) In the event that a Muslim must enter into negotiations, there is a provision in Islam that allows a Muslim to (lie) make a deal with the enemy, if it will be used to catch the other side off guard (you kipper war, and others). (11) In other words, any deal you make with Muslims is not a deal at all. Consider Arafat at the Oslo Accords, when he leaves with a map detailing future borders of a Palestinian state, and then out of nowhere, launches the 2nd intifada in the year 2000, lasting 10 years. Prematurely awarding Arafat a Nobel prize for Peace is a fantastic boost to the morale of an organization that represents a people who seek to destroy Israel. (12) To a people who lie constantly, and who are well known for never taking responsibility for their actions, this couldn’t be a worse choice to make. These Arabs are an ethnic group who repeatedly launch wars of annihilation against other Muslims, Blacks, etc., and especially against Jews, who they openly hate and wish to eradicate from the face of the earth. This award only serves to diminish the relevance of Nobel’s prize for peace. (13) One of the many reasons why there’s no peace, is that the USA doesn’t use social anthropologists to help it understand the political and social nuances of each country in the region, and so they use Western strategies to interact with a culture foreign to them. (14) What’s more, they entered into a treaty with a man who is a con artist from Egypt, instead of insisting on a bona fide Arab from the former British mandated Palestine. (15) That Biden is trying to delegitimize Israel’s democratically elected govt tells me the USA doesn’t want peace in the region, just like the other Arab countries don’t. Israel seems to be growing up and ready to leave home, and its parents don’t like the idea, so the parents are not allowing them to use their car and they’re withholding their weekly allowance. Unfortunately, the parents are also somewhat dependent on their children for their defensive needs.

I couldn’t agree more with you. These types of discussions are very disappointing as they offer no hope and usually platitudes in the end.

@liversuccess1420 Then again, over 5 million people died in the Thirty Years War.

I don't think Israel is a black hole of misery. Its one of the richest most advanced nations on Earth.

No, you can get there-establish a ceasefire, end the occupation, and return stolen land so Palestinians can have self-determination.

Well said. I was thinking the same when the conversation ended. From when they started to when they ended, nothing changed. It speaks volumes to what this whole mess is all about.

Also, assuming that the majority of deaths in Gaza have been due to air launched bombs, and the fact that approximately 20-30% of Hamas' own rockets have landed in the Palestinian's territory, then that means that as much as 20-30% of the civilian deaths in Gaza reported by the Palestinian Health Authority are attributable to Hamas.

You only believe the stories that fit the narrative you have been brainwashed to believe. Unfortunately both comments are neither absurd nor untrue. The rocket that fell on the el shifa hospital was fired from close by in Gaza by a terrorist group, but was attributed to Israel. That was ultimately acknowledged as true also.@michellenorris8471

Russ brought a knife to a gun fight. He wasn't debating.

LOL😂! 20% of Israeli residents are Arabs! You don’t see them blowing up things or killing Jews. Pretty much accepting the presence of Jews so long they are not harmed. But Palestinians live under martial laws. Of course they are fed up. How about ending the military occupation?

Exactly, great point

I haven't heard this before, but it's an interesting perspective

You forgot the third option - it can be a land dispute, but palestinians want all the land and do not want to trade, so there is no place for jews. Israel has a record of trading land for peace (egypt, gaza), but palestinians are always choose to fight (and loose).

As a Palestinian who grew up under occupation and encountered IOF terrorists I have nothing against Jews. Nothing. It’s the abhorent Zionists

Well put. For those who are lucid, it is the latter question. Historically (religion) - Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (Hajj Amin al-Husseini), a pro-Nazi supporter and collaborator, who birthed the "Palestinian movement". His protégés - Yasser Arafat in Gaza and Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) in Judea/Samaria. Historically (political) 5 wars, 2 Intifadas, etc, rejection of peace deals - Khartoum Resolution - 3 "No" in 1967, after the Six-Day War, 2-state "solution" even with 97% offered by Ehud Barak - rejected by Abbas, disengagement from Gaza (2005), October 7, 2023.

The only answer to this question is that it is erroneous to refer to an ethnic or religious group constituted of millions of people spread all over the planet as a single homogenous entity like your question does when you refer to “the Palestinians” and when you refer to “the Jews”. That point may sound pedantic to you but it is actually crucial when discussing such a complex issue.

It is absolutely true, so much evidence to support it, Palestinians just want Jews gone. That’s it. The whole reason for their existence is to eradicate the Jewish state. Never mind Jews make up .2% of the world’s population. About 16 million, while the Muslim population is about 2 billion 25% of of the worlds population. I’m out. RU-vid is threatening to ban me because of my pro-Israel comments.

As soon as I hear someone say they're in favor of a "two state solution", then I'm clicking off this video and definitely not hitting the LIKE or SUBSCRIBE buttons!

And rightly so. Many problems in life are unsolvable. @@bryanjackson8917

@@bryanjackson8917ok let’s have a one state soloution , equal rights for all ??? I got a feeling , you will not favour this either !!!

​@@jameslevitt7313google polls of gaza residents, they all show that the only one state solution that they want seems to be the one with no Jews in it. This is a religious proxy war with Iran on the other side of Israel.

Russ Roberts also said nothing to counter the slander/blood libel of Wright that Israeli babies were not decapitated or burned alive (in a microwave) which is 100% true and fully documented. Russ Roberts was pathetic in his feeble responses to Wrights rants and that is because Roberts is yet another Jew desperate to be seen as liberal and "enlightened".

Wright is seriously delusional in his view of the Palestinians. He actually thinks that they’re a friendly, democratic, tolerant, peace-loving people. When all evidence is to the contrary…

You are talking BS because of a lack of knowledge of history or just pure lies, Jews and Muslims have lived together for 100s of years in fact Muslims protected the Jews from the Christians. fact Muslims believe in all Jewish prophets including Jesus, do you think Muslims hate those prophets because they were Jews? No one can call himself a Muslim if he does, There is no compulsion in religion this is in the Quran if you care to find out, There was no Israel before 1948 the UN and the British gave part of Palestine to the Zionists that part has grown because the Zionists want it all, greed runs in their blood, Does any Arab or Muslim can deny that Jesus was born in Palestine? the answer is NO so for this reason for Jews to live in that land is not a problem, the problem is that those who were not from that area went there from another part of the world and claimed the land was theirs, ask the Romans if they can claim all the eria they used to occupy is theirs because their incesters used to live there, Palestinians don't hate Jews and not all Palestinians are Muslims they hate occupation they may hate the Zionists which the majority are atheists

i agree he was rational, mr roberts was deeply problematic

One long Gish gallop of stupidity here.

Why is that strange?

@@glennwatson3313”it is true because I said so 10 years ago”?

I found the gentleman bit arrogant with a hint of narcissism

Not really. Historians do it all the time. When you've written the research there is no reason not to use it. Better to use what you know is right than cite others just for the sake of doing so.

Because Egypt wasn't founded by stealing half the land from people and driving nearly a million people from their homes, and hasn't built the world's largest concentration camps in which to isolate, starve, dehumanize, and slaughter people.

The numbers came too fast. That alone tells you that they are not reliable. Israel said 1400 dead and later revised down to 1200. Health ministry of Gaza manages to count the dead instantaneously. That is not realistic. Maybe there there are more dead, maybe there are fewer. Among the dead, there are combatants. Hamas now says 6000 members were killed. Israel says 12000. Split the difference and call it 9000.

They both want the land. There is nothing special or hard to understand about that.

And the al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem has No importance to Islam. The al Aqsa mosque was not named or built until 70 years after Muhammad's death. There were no Muslims in Jerusalem until after Muhammad's death, why would there be a mosque in Jerusalem when not one Muslim lived there yet? Umar, the Caliph that arrived in Jerusalem (after Muhammad's death) found a garbage dump of the Temple Mount, he had to clean and clear this in order to build a small wooden prayer shack to pray because there was no mosque there. The Real al Aqsa mosque is in Ji'rrana, Saudi Arabia near Taif. In Arabic writings, Muhammad had prayed in the al Aqsa mosque in Ji'rrana, Saudi Arabia.

@@shainazion4073 I seem to remember some sort of myth that Mohamed magically flew to Jerusalem and set up a mosque. Its been awhile.

@@glennwatson3313 Except Nowhere in the verse is Jerusalem mentioned, again the al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem was not named or built until 70 years after Muhammad's death by the Umayyads.

@@shainazion4073 I'm sure you are correct. My memory of the Koran is from study done decades ago. I seem to remember some sort of mystical journey by Mohammed to the Holy Land. I will look it up.

Palestinians respond with terror and murder, which has forced harsher control measures. Before the first intifada there was freedom of movement and shopping in each others communities and much more integration. President Begin even wanted to give Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza FULL Israeli citizenship and guess what happened? Jimmy Carter stopped him and then the PLO from outside launched a terror war and it’s been escalating since then.

I don't think your statement is correct. The Israelis are willing to live in peace with the arabs, but the opposite is not true.

@@williamerdman4888 based on what? Because you say so? Definitely false, unrealistic, illogical and nonsensical. Israel is the biggest impediment against peace in the holy land. The very fact you deny Palestinians their national identity and only refer to their ethnicity is prove of your bias. International law, UN security resolutions and concessus of over 185 nations worldwide by voting each year since 2000 have all been rejected by israel. Netanyahu rejects it today too. So wake up and smell the coffee Palestinians will be free Palestine as a state on 22% of historical Palestine will be created

@@williamerdman4888 if my statement is wrong why doesn't israel issue all Palestinians full and equal citizenship or end it's occupation and oppression against Palestinians? What is it doing on Palestinian internationally recognised territories? Why does israel need a settlement minister then?

@@Klopp2543 Would YOU offer the Palestinians full and equal rights at this time (?) - not if you had a brain and listened to their call for genocide of the Israeli people. The Palestinians have been offered a two-state solution FIVE times in the past, and the Palestinians, in their infinite wisdom, turned these down or started war in all cases. Israel needs a settlement minister to administer the settlements resulting from the 1967 Palestinian and Arab attacks upon their land. Those areas were taken over by the Israelis during the war started by Palestinians/Arabs and clearly are needed to protect the Israelis from the historically war-mongering Arabs - you would be careful in administering that land as well.

But true. When do you want to start the timeline? We could go back to 7th century Medina where the profit slaughtered jews. Or 1929 Herron massacre of jews. Or the fact that the surrounding Arab nations attacked Israel the day after the UN resolution passed to create Israel and Palestine. They lost that war. Immediately after the Arabs lost the war they started, the Arab nations ethnically cleansed 900,000 Mizrahi jews. It all depends on when you want to start the timeline.

@@evamurray2564 you and I can spend hours going back and forth on who did what to whom. For example, you say the Jews from North Africa and Arab countries were ethnically cleansed and forced to flee to Israel. I totally agree. But you fail to mention that large and well integrated communities of Jews lived through out the Arab countries in relative peace. The expulsion of the mizrahi Jews came about after the establishment of the state of Israel and as a direct consequence of it. The idea that Jews and Arabs never coexisted is not factually correct. You say the Arabs attacked after the establishment of the state of Israel. That is also true. But if you were in their position, would you have settled for 45% of Palestine with most of the productive arable land and water sources given to the other party not to mention Arabs made up 2/3 of the population. It is my view, both groups have a claim to make, but this is the 21st century and there has to be a statute of limitations on who did what to whom at some point. If the Palestinians had killed or wounded 100, 000 Jews I would be saying the same thing. It has to stop. We can’t stand by and watch any massacre for any reason. What,s more Arabs and Jews have been going at each other for generations now, are we to condemn future generations to the same fate!

It's true.

@@evamurray2564let’s go to 1948 and the nakba

@What-kw6ox I did. If you bothered to read my comment. The nakba is a result of the war that the Palestinians and surrounding Arab nations started. This war that the Arabs started also resulted in 900,000 Mizrahi jews expulsion from the surrounding Arab nations. But whatever. Israel accepted these refugees displaced from war but the Arab nations kept their fellow brothers in refugee camps in perpetual war mode. But whatever. Much easy to spout nonsense from tiktok.

None of this is "important". The Gazans are getting hundreds of trucks daily with food, water, medicine and fuel. Hamas is stealing about 60% of the trucks.

Israelis Arabs are Palestinians. Look how peaceful they are. Why? Because they don’t live under military occupation.

Arabs?judea and samaria?hamas control IDF? For starters Arabs is an ethnicity not a nationality. Those you call Arabs call themselves Palestinians(beats me why you find it difficult identifying them as the expect, i hope it's not to dehumanise them) secondly conflating hamas with Palestinians is nonsensical and illogical. Israel states hamas as about 30,000 Palestinians are over 5 million. The PA in the west bank work with Israel. My question what's your solution to the Palestinian question? If it's 2 states how do you envision their state will be and encompass?

I don’t care if WB Arabs all voted for the Green Party, Israeli sovereignty over the heartland of israel aka Palestine is not up for discussion. Arabs of the WB should have 3 choices, the choices Joshua ben Nun offered: accept Israel & live in peace, leave, or war. Those that want real peace can have their own semi-autonomous self gov whether they want that to look like western liberal democracy (doubtful) or clan rule (like the gulf states) or a strong man (like the rest of the Arab world) or a theocracy or whatever. Israel needs to stop talking about democracy, which it is not as its high court has constantly proven, and instead talk about the unique Jewish ways that Jewish tradition has thought about peace, partnership, and living with others in the land of israel.

​​@@LOPEKJJJ​ It is an extreme position to claim there can be no discussion of a sovereign Palestinian West Bank. Why do you see this as a movement towards peace?

@@DrumsBah it’s a fair question. “Peace” without justice is not peace. The two state solution has been pushed down on Israelis and Palestinians for 100 years now and it’s only created more violence and destruction. Sovereignty over the land of israel, especially the heartland ie. Jerusalem and the West Bank is a non-starter for enough Israelis that you’ll never get to “peace” if that’s the goal. Jewish identity has been innately tied to Jerusalem and the WB for thousands of years and losing this land after reclaiming sovereignty over it would reopen the historic injustice against the Jewish people that caused them to lose this land originally. And enough Palestinians similarly don’t want to see Palestine cut up that they are willing to fight and die. Real peace can only come from a starting point where the people on the ground and their sense of justice and their aspirations are respected. Drawing lines on a map might work for Europeans but it doesn’t play in Israel/Palestine.

@@Klopp2543 I was as precise as possible. "Palestine" is a historical term for a larger territory including a varied population, and the name itself was given by the Romans, seems to be based on "Philistines", one of the populations of Greek origins who lived there. I don't think it precisely identifies the Arabs living in Gaza or Judea and Samaria, many of which are of Egyptian, Jordanian etc. origin and not "Palestinian" in any historical sense. Calling all these Arabs "Palestinians" is a recent invention and a language trick used by the PLO to suggest they are the "true" natives of the old region of Palestine, and thus the owners of the land of Israel, hence the "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab" incantation. It's only "free" in English by the way, because it sounds good and gives useful idiots in the West the illusion of them wanting to establish some type of liberal democracy, which is far from the case. They mean an Islamic state that replaces Israel. Since Hamas enjoys extremely broad support (up to 85% in all recent polls) both in Gaza and Judea & Samaria (also known as the West Bank, after the annexation by Jordan in 1948), it stands to reason that giving these people the right to vote in Israel would bring Hamas to power and it's a non-starter for the Jews, it would mean a new civil war just like in 1947. There will be no peace until the Arabs of Gaza and Judea & Samaria abandon the idea that Israel can be destroyed, or that the Jews can be driven away like the French were from Algeria. Unlike the French, the Jews have no France to go to. In fact, my prediction is that if the Gazans pull anything like the October the 8th again, they'll end up in tents in the Sinai.

Gaza has a border with Egypt. Why don't fellow Arabs in Egypt allow Gazans in and out?

@@allagamarnik3237 This sort of logic is always backwards. It’s not Egypt or any other “fellow Arab” country’s responsibility to do so, thereby making them an active contributor to ethnic cleansing. Rather, it’s Israel’s responsibility to stop the indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians that’s creating this humanitarian crisis.

You clearly haven't read the PLO or Hamas Charters, have you ?@@groundworkhealthfitness1169

Israel's responsibility is to protect the citizens of Israel. That's is the number one priority of any government.

Interesting that you claim that the Palestinians are confined to an area against their will, but when said Palestinians say they want to voluntarily leave said prison and emigrate to a new country to start a new life, people such as you say "no way Jose" (or however you might say that in Arabic).

Rafah crossing is in part of the peace deal between Egypt and Israel. Israel has the final authority on what Egypt allows in or out. I bet Palestinians have to live with worse way worse stuff than rockets flying in. What's factual is israel controls every level of Palestinians lives how they live,eat,go etc

Egypt has a blockade from Gaza into Egypt. Israel has a blockade into Israel but also prevents entering and exiting Gaza by air and sea. These are not equivalent, and it is whataboutism to emphasise the Rafah border when all other movement of goods and people is under the control of Israel. Wright's criticisms can't be dismissed by just stating how horrible Hamas is. Hamas is indeed despicable and these points still stand.

@@DrumsBahDidn't israel implemented the blockade in response to attacks from gaza? It seems pretty reasonable to insure that no weapons are imported. If they developed a thousands of missiles and huge tonnels under blockade, you would imagine what they could do without it.

@@eyetrackerru gazans are a result of the people pushed there from ethnic cleaning If Palestinians cannot have weapons , same should go for Israelis Stop the RACIST double standards

​@@eyetrackerru💯

Not superficial, it is evil, twisted and perverse understanding

a very egregious, woke mind....pity, he could have been a very good academic...@@mmikee407

@@mmikee407 and I suppose equal rights equals antisemitism

That is not true.

Citation?

The Israeli gov normalized the idea of living under imminent threat and constant terror and violence from Gaza, from Hezbollah, from terror cells in the West Bank. Israel has been under attack for decades. Rockets, kidnappings, murders. The real question is why didn’t israel take action sooner. Why has israel tolerated the build up of enemies and rockets on its borders.

They did not "know", there was 1 intelligence officer that saw certain things that felt an attack might happen, the higher level officers did not believe that it could or would happen. The US had chatter that an attack like 9/11 would happen also, they ignored it. The same thing happened in Israel.

@@shainazion4073 There is always some chatter in every conflict about sneak attack's happening here or there.

Only if you think religion allows you to ethnically cleanse others , expel them and take their homes If what you are saying is true. Jews , Christian and Muslims would not have been living together before the Zionists came

And some were killed when Hamas and Islamic Jihad fired rockets that fell short of Israel and landed in Gaza.

You don’t have the right to expel the whole population from their homes , now or in 1948

Can you give an example? I just listened to the episode and I didn’t get that impression

Wright is practically mild in his criticism. You are rabid with tribalism, something gentiles do not fail to notice these days.

At least Wright is capable of hearing a point of view (on a difficult subject) that he disagrees with without needing to impugn the character of the person he disagrees with.

@@chynabad9804ironic that Americans love their tribes but see that as an insult. God bless Israel for reminding the world that tribes, nations, religion, morality, these things do matter and trying to melt everything down into a universal conformity is dehumanizing. John Lennon was wrong. He imagined a world with no humanity.

​@chynabad9804 you criticise the original poster of tribalism and then proceed to invoke that your tribe the gentiles are failing to notice Jewish tribalism. Hilarious. Perhaps gentiles need to analyse whether they have shed their hatred of jews.

Hamas won on 7th October. Now they will lose.

I don't see that, what do you mean?

Your conclusion is wrong. Israel did take the bait, but Hamas will be judged positively in history. Oct 6th no talk of Palestine as usual. Now, no Palestinian will ever relent, the Zionist crossed a line they can never return to.

@@williamerdman4888don’t hold you breath for a sensible reply