did you source the rails and trucks directly from the manufacturer or did you buy from fadalCNC. I currently have the same problem, removed the stage skirt and it was filled with ball bearings. I have an EMC 2016L
Thanks for all the in-depth videos on your experience buying and rebuilding your VMC. I'm shopping for a similar size and era machine myself right now, and you've been such a wonderful resource
Great video. I too, just purchased a VMC 15-XT and will have to convert to single phase. Have you sampled machine current while running any parts (i.e spindle and drives running)? I have limited power in my garage and curious if its sufficient or perhaps need to plan for a power upgrade. Thank you!
Watching your videos on the Fadal VMC15. I have a 1998 Fadal VMC15 XT that I need to replace the X and Y rails. Would you happen to have information on the rails you purchased such as preload, grade accuracy, and brand?
Very helpful. I’m looking at a VMC 15 now. I guess there’s an easy way to check the rails and trucks before buying? This is encouraging with parts available. The single phase conversion is of interest too.
Wow! You poor man- that was a car crash of a second hand CNC! I just got my first CNC and 850 Manford with a Mitsubishi controller 27years old. Had a Y servo driver and encoder issue and was dirty as dirty could possibly get but box ways were good and the rest is playing nicely . Used a rotary converter that has switching contacters ( a first for me ) and that runs through a suitably sized AVR. Have taught myself Gcode which was much less of a challenge than I thought it would be now I need to sort out a drip feed attachment - your video on that was way beyond me :( .Box way CNC mills have an auto oiler so the bed ways last a long time but you get a lot of tramp oil.... linear rails are famous for being quicker on their feet. Good job on all the work you did! It is a challenge ;)Thanks for all your videos!
Hello ant man, I have a 1997 VMC15XT and have to replace the Y axis trucks. Do you have the part numbers of them? I have already replaced the Y Axis ball screw, all bearings, spindle belt... I hope this is the last thing I need to fix
Yes, at the end I have way more machine for the price then I ever thought I would. But man it was a much longer and painful road then I thought. This is why I started making these videos. To share my mistakes and lessons with others. Thanks for watching. Tim
Wow a huge step up in technology from that Atlas to a Fadal. I truly hate seeing people so unconcerned they literally run a good machine into the ground like parts of yours were. And I think I now have a rough idea of just the research time you had to have put in sorting out the issues and learning all the alignment methods you showed in your other videos. An amazing and massive difference between what you started with and what it is today. I'd be willing to bet you had some doubts about what you gotten yourself into at least a few times before it was fully operational. :-)
I want to invite ABom over and watch him run my mini lathe, LOL. Yep, it started with some F bombs, then as I pulled more stuff off I started to get a little puke in my mouth ;) It really took a chunk out of my tooling budget and the Mrs. was not very pleased with some of the parts bills. It would have taken a LOT longer for me to get it going without my Friend Brian. He had lunch with me almost EVERY day and would walk me through the next steps. Then I would go home and work on the machine so he could tell me what I was doing wrong the next day. A truly priceless resource and a great guy.
It will depend on the year of the machine. Before 1994 it might use DC servo motors, after 94 it might have AC servo motors or "brushless DC" motors (aka 3 phase AC servo motors)
Just a point of interest. Bridgeport Torq Cut 22's and 30's of the mid to late 90's are of similar design, however they use a PC based control, linear ways, DC brush servos. They can usually be run single phase as well. Spindle motors are 5hp continuous wiht 7.5hp for 30 mins. Some came with transmissions that were automatically actuated to give more torque at low speed. A plus when running the Yaskawa VFD on single phase. I have the 22 and run it on single phase. That said, I do believe there is more support for the Fadals. I will be pulling my way covers off soon to check things over.
Are you sure its a true PC base? PC's are not architect to do high speed close loop control. You need consistent and repeatable loop rates to get stable performance, PC's are anything but consistent and repeatable when it comes to timing. It looks like the Centroid guys are doing it right. I'm going to look closer at them as I always need a backup plan for when the Fadal decides to let out the smoke. Sounds like a very similar machine to the Fadal TRM maybe?
Hey great set of videos. Loving the content. Do you have more info on the transformers and other single phase parts you used? I just bought a 3016 and also bought a 20hp RPC but would prefer single phase conversion. The T813 transformer original to single phase DC machines is $2k used. Hardly worth it.
Thanks for sharing the story. I believe the pictures show what could be involved in doing maintenance on a used VMC. You also didi a good job on other videos some of the things to inspect when looking at a used machine. Question, did you retain the zerk lubrication system or change it to a pressure lube? What type of grease is to be used in the trucks?
I kept the manual grease system for now. Main reason is NO oil in the coolant, big plus. As I only run part time, I really don't need to grease that offten, once a month is equal to the speced interval for me. I might convert over to an oiler, but again, its over 1K in parts to do so. I use Mobiltemp Shc 32 mcmaster number 1394K5
About how much are you spending on the rails and ballscrews? I'm looking to do get a used fadal about the same as yours. At some point a new machine must make sense dont want to get into something and then realize the prices on parts is insane.
Thank you D. No issues with the drives. The spindle drive has a full wave rectifier first thing as the AC comes in. The only thing the drive sees is a bit more voltage ripple on the DC link bus. I could increase the capacitor bank to solve that but it does not bother it at all. The power supply for the servo drives was already on single phase. The only 3 phase part in the whole machine is the spindle drive. Any machine larger then mine uses a 3 phase DC supply for the axis drives so you would most likely need to do something there. But those are just unregulated full wave rectifiers, so cheap to fix.
the machine is good mechanically ,had the processor changed and having problems with no hand jog wheel but everything else works. Right now there is on help from Haas.
Hello. Your videos are great! We recently acquired a vmc15xt. We have a question..... where does the spindle lube go? Is there a “reservoir “? Our machine has the auto way lube system, FYI...... Thanks Jason
Here in Southern California and looking at buying my first CNC Milling Center. It’s a 2014 vintage Fadal . This is the first version of Fadals built in Taiwan after the Fadal Family sold the company and closed down manufacturing in California. Has anyone any experience with this machine? Is it a good machine? Thanks for any answers!
Hi Thank you sir for what you doing in sharing your experiences and knowledge, my name is Wagner and i watch your videos and i learned a lot, thank you. I ljust bought a fadal VMC 2016 and i not have 3 phase in my house, do you please can help me with this problem and tell me what i need to do for my machine work on single phase? and i think in change all the controls to centroid cnc, i converted a milling machine (PM 25V) to cnc and work great but is too small that why i got the fadal. I going to remove the covers from the X for check like you did and i going to install air filters in my machine too, soon as i have the machine in my house i will going put some pic here. Thank you Wagner Damotta
Great job on rebuilding this machine. I'm at a similar point now as where you were when you purchased this machine (I have a south bend heavy ten and an Enco mill/drill) and have done a lot of hand fabricating. I came across your video because I'm actually look at the same machine. My question is, would you do it over again or would you purchase something else? Keep up the good work!
Hello, The answer to that is, well it depends. If I'm in the same position as I was then, yes. I would just be more careful to understand what I'm buying and properly negotiate based on that. If I have less time and more capital, hands down I would try to find a turn key machine. Having the skills that I have, I don't think I would buy a new machine anytime soon. I can save a ton of capital buying used.
Ouch, at least the seller in my case cleaned up what you could see. The only way I can think of that much swarf getting under the table is if the machine over flows with chips and never gets cleaned out. Or there machining dry and using an air gun to make one hell of a hurricane in there?
yeah it was. I've been through a bunch of machines before so it was just easy enough seeing that to go ahead and strip it. Took the castings out to get pressure washed. I did buy new replacement trucks too, two sets for them just in case..
Another interesting and informative video Tim, but holy smokes man! What crook quoted you 6-7 GRAND for a 25HP RPC?? That's insane. I bought a 6 month old 40HP American Rotary digital phase converter for 1500 bucks. A brand new Digital 25HP is only 2K from American Rotary. I'm sure the single phase produced 7HP is just fine and you probably save some on the electric bill, but I was just wondering who makes a $7,000 20-30HP RPC. Thanks
Steve, I don't recall who I quoted, needed a 30 HP. I really did not search out the lowest price because I didn't want a phase converter. Just another thing to have in the shop humming away. The electronic ones are even more. You got a great deal. I might build an electronic one as a demo for some other stuff I work one (I also do software for custom drives ;). In the end I only paid about $100 for all the parts to complete the single phase conversion. At the time money talked because I just dropped a huge pill on the machine.
Totally understand. Yeah I got a pretty good deal, but as much as you know about electronics I'm sure you would have no trouble building a RPC for that or less if would have decided to go that route they are not as complicated as I thought . They are kinda loud, I put mine outside and constructed a well ventilated doghouse for it along with my compressor. Thanks for the repay and great vids.
Actually it comes out a wash most times, they buy in quantity, single piece price goes way up for components. IGBT's in that current rating start getting pricey and if you make a mistake you can easily wipe out the whole drive during development.
The biggest cost of the RPC is the new motor. I bought a new AR box (20HP, $750 ish,) and a used baldor 20HP motor for $300. You also have to tack on the material (wiring, conduit, boxes, etc.) cost, as well as any permitting costs. I put my motor outside in a slant roof shed adjacent to the garage with sound deadening insulation between and I can't hear a thing during a conversation. If the motor's windings test well with a megohmmeter the most you could be out is the cost of the bearings/seals and the time to service the motor.
Steve just Steve i also went threw them for my rotary phase convertor so glad i did. i have a 20hp to run my 7.5hp Miltronics and my 10hp romi cnc lathe. great company to work with.i even got free shipping and liftgate delivery
Hello sir, I stumbled across your channel, it was recommended for me, and I have to say I like your content, thank you for taking the time to film, and document your projects. I am a Policeman in South Africa, and I’m in the process of setting up a small home machine shop.At this stage I have a Bridgeport mill, a 1,5m between centres lathe a small Chinese mill and lathe that I will convert to cnc at a later stage, and two surface grinders. That is just a little about me. The reason I felt the need to comment on this video, is because I am just so curious, as you started assessing the VMC after its arrival, and you found damaged tracks, and chips everywhere, and because I have been there, how many times have you asked yourself, what have I done??LOL, once again thank you for your efforts! Ian
I was very, um, aggravated in the beginning. However, the price I paid and the parts I put in, it came out pretty good. I have a really good machine now and I know everything about it. Thanks for the comments and good luck with your shop!
You really know your stuff, thank you for posting such great informative videos. Could you please share the specs or models of the line reactors and transformers that you used? I also have a VMC 15 and am planning on doing a single phase conversion. Thanks!
Hi Dave, I think there are timers somewhere in the controller, I never even looked. The machine is so old, it's like buying a used car with a 5 digit analog odometer. Is it 50K, 150K, 250K, or did someone with a drill make it read what ever they wanted? At some point in its past the control electronics where upgraded I do know that. But I have no clue if and of the screws or linears where previously replaced or not. The X axis has a newer servo motor on it. The old one most likely burned trying to push against the bad bearings! There are signs of past crashes, most notably was the tool changer sheet metal and X Y where not square anymore, by a LOT.
Oh, as for experience, I'm going to do a Bio video shortly. Making these narrative videos as I'm slammed with work and family. I made a good amount of parts on a Tormach 1100 before I went shopping for my own machine. I also had some general machining and fabricating experience. I'm a software engineer by trade, but I'm one of those people that can just sit down and do stuff.
At-Man Unlimited Machining thanks for the response. I looked at a Dynamite VMC with a ton of tooling and a great price 3500. The age, controller and the weight scared me to much. I'm still looking but may end up getting a Tormach. You should have let the air out of the front tires to get it in the garage. Dave
Dave, there is nothing wrong with a Tormach. People that complain about Tormach being junk are just expecting it to do the work of a VMC, which it physically can't. Used VMC is not for everyone, you need to be comfortable with what your going to run up against. If not you can spend bucks of cash in repairs and service. The tires on the fork lift where foam filled. A lot of heavy equipment will have foam core tires to reduce service calls from flats.
For anyone that might be discouraged; Many of the smaller Fadals have transformers that can run either single or 3 phase. You need to change the jumpers on the transformer to convert. This entails making about 15 wire jumpers and wiring them into two rows of connector blocks. The T814 and (I believe also the T813) transformers both can be converted this way. If you have a different transformer you can replace it. It's cheaper than a rotary phase converter and Fadal don't recommend to use a phase converter. It took me about an hour to convert a VMC40 (and half of that was checking and rechecking that I had the jumpers correct)
To be very clear, the machine will have a three phase transformer OR a single phase transformer. They can NOT be rewired to work on either. If you have a machine that has a single phase compatible spindle drive and servo drive then you can install a single phase transformer to convert it. Or if you have a single phase machine you can install a three phase transformer to convert it back to 3 phase. The T812 and T813 transformers are single phase ONLY transformers as they only have one primary winding and one core. The three phase transformers can NOT be converted to single phase because Fadal uses unbalanced single phase taps on two of the phases. This prevents it from being used for single phase as it causes imbalances in the magnetic flux in the core.
@@AtManUnlimitedMachining Machines that have a T814 transformer such as some of the VMC40s most certainly support either single or three phase by simply changing the jumpers. I converted mine. I only had to remove the middle E2 3-phase input and make up new jumpers for the transformer. The manual lists 3 different transformer options for that machine. Only the T814 was dual capable. I can send you the single and 3-phase jumper settings from the Fadal manual if you are interested.
@@AtManUnlimitedMachining Yes. I can send you a scan of the wiring schematics if you send me an address. There are 3 for the T814; 3-phase "Y", 3-phase "Delta" and single phase. It's really difficult to get solid info on this without the manuals for the actual machine (which I have). I had seen a forum comment that this was possible but without any details on the exact transformer. I wasn't able to confirm until I got the machine and converted it. All the eletrics downstream of the transformer are isolated by the inverter and so are blissfully unaware of what the transformer input. So everything else worked without any changes.
just bought a used 3016 made in 2003 not delivered yet, now I"m terrified, oh well too late now, bwhahahahahahah, I guess we'll see, thanks for your video series it already been a big help, binge watching now. so much to learn. Is there a way I can tell if this machine is convertible to single phase???
Allan, if your wondering if you get out what you put in, no. If you do all the work your self and don't count labor then you can save money if your time is free. But if your paying for labor it does not matter if you buy a machine that needs repair or is turn key, the price at the end will be about the same. The machine prices are all over the map for these machines so its hard to put a value on it. Going price is anywhere from 5-15k.
Im sure someone has said this already, and i stole it from a 5 year old but did you think to take air out of the tires on the forklift to clear the flange?
Funny you say that, at the time my son was 4 and he yelled out the window "DADDY! Why don't you let the air out of the tires?" Very simple answer, to save maintenance costs a lot of rental places are starting to use foam filled tires. This had foam filled tires. A better solution would be a set of skates to roll it in on.
Hello Wes, thanks for taking the time to watch some of my videos. I welcome comments and constructive criticism, but let's keep them constructive. Fadal way covers do a good job when the wipers are good and properly adjusted. They will not get packed with chips in a few weeks. There are still a lot of Fadal machines out there running. Even after a year of running part time my machine has no chips under the covers. The reason this machine was in such bad shape was because the wipers where total gone (as in worn to nothing left) and the way covers where bent and misshapen. Just a lack of PM. Thanks Tim
This one looks better than the ones I have worked on. The 3016s and 4020s have an angled cover on the rear of the Y and they are terrible. What you show in this video is extremely common for Fadals.
Taking into consideration your time was worth something, what do you figure you have spent additionally to purchase a Fadal in better condition? Unless the guy paid you to remove the boat anchor from his warehouse, that seemed like a tremendous amount of work for the end result you achieved.
Hello Richard, I would hardly call this a boat anchor. It was not in the shape I thought it was though. Given I know what I'm doing now these repairs would take about 2 weeks if I did it again today to the same level. So call it 100 hours at a rate of $100 an hour and your at $10k. Add in all the parts and your under $25k for a machine that holds a total positional accuracy less then 0.001". I don't think that is to bad. Trying to find a machine that is truly turn key and at that price will be tough I think. But given the fact I'm capital limited it is an awesome result. It is not for everyone, and a company that has the capital would most likely write this machine off. But for my situation I'm very happy with how it ended up and what I have. Does that help? Tim
Tim, first of all, I apologize for the "boat anchor comment". You have a very good channel! I have a 3016, that I purchased about 7 years ago, probably a few years newer than your 45. It was in good working order & under power at the time working daily. Reasonably close tolerances for the work I was doing. The reason I bought it was I was taking CNC classes at the local junior college. I had started on a donated 4020, so, I was very familiar with the 88 controller. The college located the 3016 for me, as they knew I was more than interested in just learning M & G code. I went through many of the things you talk about during your rebuild. I was particularly interested in your conversion from 3-phase to 220-single phase; I do have 3-phase because I knew it was required. Like all things mechanical, even with maintenance first consideration, wear is inevitable. One of your segments I was really interested in was backlash calibration. I was holding my breath and hoping to learn more, and you brought in a tech that really did the test. I had a tech do a ball bar calculation on my machine (...I too am under financial constraints) and the y-axis looked like a football shape on the computer he used for the test. The conclusion was the y-axis was shot. Not only that, I have a spindle coolant leak up on top the Z. The machine has a spindle chiller. End result the repair cost is almost prohibitive. (I don't live at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.) To get a tech out here, plus parts is astronomical. I was really more interested in the maintenance & repair aspect of your experiences. Particularly pulling & replacing axes, nuts, thrust bearings, etc. Some youtube info is to be taken with a grain of salt. I would REALLY appreciate any insight regarding mechanical repair. I have searched forums, youtube, etc with very little significant information. I know the people you got the spindle from on a first name basis. Thank you, Richard Kicklighter
Richard, no apology needed, you really can get a boat anchor if your not careful. Brian who has the ball bar is a master in machine repair. Very good friend of mine. Just because your plot looks like a football does not mean your Y axis is shot. Do you have the report with the plots and data that I could look at? The renishaw software should give you indications of what is out of wack. But football shaped most likely is not ball screw, could just be out of square or servo gain error. As for the coolant leak, are you talking machine coolant or actual spindle chiller coolant from the chiller? Where is it leaking from? Could be as simple as a cracked fitting or tube. Send me an email and I can try and help. My address is in the video descriptions or the "about" page of the channel. Tim
Dead controller is much worse. Being a linear machine, they still make rails and trucks with the same profile. So you can still order and replace them. Electronics are another story, those have not been made in a long time.
Yes, send it out to a good shop and they will let you know if the parts are ok to do so. Nothing wrong with a reball as long as its done correct and restores the preload.
I am really shocked by the condition this machine came to you even if someone ever wanted to cause some damage intentionally to it, it wont end up like that! I believe you would have spent less time/effort building a new machine! you laterally turned a junk to an elite mill machine, you spend a lot of time/efford yes but you learned a lot BTW Are you still using the same ballscrews with the backlash compensation? the only thing I disagree with you about is having a ballscrew that have a backlash simply because even will a backlash compensation you should not have same precision compared to a ballscrew that have a zero backlash, and there is a good reason for this however I also wanted to ask you if you could move a tool with your hand while the machine is off while having a backlash?
Sorry to say, but there are machines far far worse. This one was pretty bad and was not maintained but it was not that bad. What really killed the X linears was lack of grease because the zerk fittings are not visible under the table. The X and Y screws are "OK" Y has about 0.0005" of backlash, X has about 2-3 tenths. The new Z screw has 3 tenths. The issue with backlash comp when it gets to high is it will start causing control issues. You may start seeing reversal spikes and the like. You can not move or feel the backlash, you can see it with an indicator by running the axis or with a ball bar.
from the calibrations videos I thought it is much more than that, when the backlash is too small like your case I would not compensate it, by compensating it the machine dwells and this cause much more bad than good.
We actually just ran the ball bar on the machine tonight. Without back lash comp that is the most significant error. With the comp on the machine is holding positional accuracy less then 0.001". Pretty darn good in my book. Backlash comp does not cause dwells in any way. It causes the ball screw to get a little bump when changing direction so the position controller takes up the slack in the system. So it is very useful, hence every major machine has it.
from your calibration videos, your machine is holding positional accuracy much less than that, my wooden diy machine respond to less than 0.01mm (less than 0.0005") touch wood, and that in every axis, the backlash is less than 0.01mm also in every axis, however once upon a time I had a backlash of 0.03 in X axis only and it took me a while to get rid of it, when I tried to use backlash compensation in mach3, I noticed the machine dwells while changing direction of x, i never liked to use BL comp. however the real precision test of a machine, is by cutting a piece and measuring it, try to cut a perfect circle of any metal (10mm diameter ~ 3mm thick) and rotate the piece between a caliper jaws and check the difference between the max and min readings.
Mach3 really can't stand up to a true commercial CNC controller. There is no delay in a commercial controller. And yes, in each one of my alignment videos each individual item was a few tenths. But, total positional accuracy is how close you can hold an absolute position at any given point. It is a summation of all those little errors from each video. Which is why you need to measure and work so hard at each value, because they all add up in the end. The ball bar test does measure a circle, but it does a 12" circle, and in that 12" circle the machine can place a point less then 0.001" of its actual true position. Don't confuse precision and accuracy. Just because you can see 0.01mm steps does not mean a machine can hold that accuracy across its range of motion.
Nice story. I'm doing the same now to a Kira VTC that needed some love. I went through about the same steps as you have done with my machine (buildthread over at cnczone.com if you ever want to take a peek). Still not done so hope I don't find more broken parts :/ Aren't those linear components like the Z axis ballscrew and the linear rails pretty expensive to replace?
Linear rails where $1000 and the ball screw was somewhere around $1600. But I have been able to get enough work for the machine so it has covered all of its repair bills and is now starting to pay back some of the initial capital I spent. Not to bad for part time work.
I doing well, just work and personal things are taking up all my time. I want to get back to making videos as I enjoy it. Just need to find the time again.
I'm around 10ish give or take a few right now after all the parts. That is not counting the 400 ish hours of labor I put into it. But a lot of that was cleaning and learning the new machine. About the same as your run of the mill (pun) personal cnc new. Mine just weighs a lot more ;)
Personally I try and stay with screws and linears that are made in the US or Germany if possible. I just feel you get better quality control, true or not, don't know. Just my personal preference. My machine had Thomson linears in it, so that is what I put back in it. I ordered a new ball screw from Fadal CNC and it is a steinmeyer, I specifically requested it. They also carry a Taiwan brand as well. The preload on it seems really low for my liking. I have not put it in yet but they assure me others are using them and are happy. I find "others" are not as critical as I am though. The machine has NSK screws now. I should be able to get my old screw reballed so I might do that and install it in X or Y.
